19 Steps to becoming City Harvest Church member.
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Originally posted by James_Tan_1983:
@ Zeeleewong: You never cease to amaze me. The least I can say is that you strongly believer in whatever that might be.
@BroInChrist
Thank you for the link. True, the word cult is not very specific, and very negative on top of that. Distinguishing makes sense but is hard to do. Cult's like Heaven's Gate started of as a pentacostal church. Only on hindsight, after the alledged suicides, they were identified as a cult.When you told me in "What happened to CHC dishonesty case, to look at sound doctrine, I think you were right. Rather than asking the question: Is CHC a cult, or have cultic traits?
We migth have a more productive discussion when asking:
Is CHC a Christian Church? or Where does CHC deviate from sound Christian doctrine? (This also means I was wrong with my topic alluding to CHC as destructive cult)
However, the discussion will always be one-sided if we do not get CHC members to participate, and elaborate on their point of view, even if only offline. Me visiting CHC, despite efforts, can not be called objective as a start with a very negative experience.
I do not consider Zeeleewong, no offense intended, to be suitable to take the role of CHC spokesmen. In my view she is the only one causing "damage" to CHC's reputation. Regrettably, so far, I only met Zeeleewong's in CHC, and this includes the Pastor that did the introduction interview.
As Alize mentioned before, maybe I am too confrontational.
Mayb you might want to explore the CHC crowd? probably there are other kinds of followers there. By other kinds i mean followers who have examined whatever that is being taught there and comes to a rational conclusion that it is totally nowhere near a cult and that it can be accepted?
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That would be great. Do you know anybody?
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er nope... but i do have friends from cityharvest church who apparently seems quite ok. But we seldom talk about such stuffs since its quite sensitive.
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Youtube has a lot of these clips on their speeches to the people.
You can watch them and make your own judgement.
I would think the more interesting ones are those that talk about money and prosperity.
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Originally posted by James_Tan_1983:
@ Zeeleewong: You never cease to amaze me. The least I can say is that you strongly believer in whatever that might be.
@BroInChrist
Thank you for the link. True, the word cult is not very specific, and very negative on top of that. Distinguishing makes sense but is hard to do. Cult's like Heaven's Gate started of as a pentacostal church. Only on hindsight, after the alledged suicides, they were identified as a cult.When you told me in "What happened to CHC dishonesty case, to look at sound doctrine, I think you were right. Rather than asking the question: Is CHC a cult, or have cultic traits?
We migth have a more productive discussion when asking:
Is CHC a Christian Church? or Where does CHC deviate from sound Christian doctrine? (This also means I was wrong with my topic alluding to CHC as destructive cult)
However, the discussion will always be one-sided if we do not get CHC members to participate, and elaborate on their point of view, even if only offline. Me visiting CHC, despite efforts, can not be called objective as a start with a very negative experience.
I do not consider Zeeleewong, no offense intended, to be suitable to take the role of CHC spokesmen. In my view she is the only one causing "damage" to CHC's reputation. Regrettably, so far, I only met Zeeleewong's in CHC, and this includes the Pastor that did the introduction interview.
As Alize mentioned before, maybe I am too confrontational.
I think as fellow believers we need also to watch over one another in some sense. If we have knowledge or good reasons to warn about something, then we can do so in good conscience, even if it has to be confrontational. Our intentions should be self-examined and proceed out of a sincere desire to help and encourage.
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Originally posted by [imdestinyz]:
er nope... but i do have friends from cityharvest church who apparently seems quite ok. But we seldom talk about such stuffs since its quite sensitive.
I have both friends and relatives in CHC. Perhaps I am over-sensitive but I think I sense a pressure or need to be (or be seen as) materially successful, e.g. hold high rank job, earn big bucks, stay in condo or landed property.
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Originally posted by BroInChrist:
I have both friends and relatives in CHC. Perhaps I am over-sensitive but I think I sense a pressure or need to be (or be seen as) materially successful, e.g. hold high rank job, earn big bucks, stay in condo or landed property.
wow im quite lucky then since my friend din give me that kind of pressure. In fact before he told me he's from CHC i din even realise he's from that church. So i guess since the church population is so huge... really all kinds of ppl are there. -
Originally posted by [imdestinyz]:
wow im quite lucky then since my friend din give me that kind of pressure. In fact before he told me he's from CHC i din even realise he's from that church. So i guess since the church population is so huge... really all kinds of ppl are there.I suppose the pressure might be there because of the teaching that one is not materially well off because one is out of favour with God, is in sin, or lack faith. It does become a heavy guilt burden to bear.
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Originally posted by BroInChrist:
I suppose the pressure might be there because of the teaching that one is not materially well off because one is out of favour with God, is in sin, or lack faith. It does become a heavy guilt burden to bear.
yea... i agree but these teaching are wrong be it morally or spiritually. Is it really taught this way over there? -
Originally posted by BroInChrist:
I suppose the pressure might be there because of the teaching that one is not materially well off because one is out of favour with God, is in sin, or lack faith. It does become a heavy guilt burden to bear.
sounds like bullshit teaching. I hope city harvest is not preaching this shit to its followers.
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Originally posted by [imdestinyz]:
yea... i agree but these teaching are wrong be it morally or spiritually. Is it really taught this way over there?I think this can only be answered by those who are long time CHC members who can tell us what the thrust of the messages have consistently been, or those who have sat through a good number of sermons by the pastor.
Prosperity gospel is defined as the teaching that believers have a right to the blessings of health and wealth and that they can obtain these blessings through positive confessions of faith and the "sowing of seeds" through the faithful payments of tithes and offerings. See http://www.christianitytoday.com/ct/article_print.html?id=86009
Thus the logic is that if believers have a right to health and wealth, then not having it must then means that God is withholding His blessings that is rightfully due to the believers because of sin or lack of faith or both.
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Originally posted by Dalforce 1941:
sounds like bullshit teaching. I hope city harvest is not preaching this shit to its followers.
Youtube is your best friend.
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One of the key emphasis of H&W churches is, I believe, the faithful giving of tithes at the least and generous giving of free-willed donations. It is understandable that a resource hungry mega-church must have a constant (and increasing?) flow of funds to sustain the machinery. Of course, smaller churches can also emphasize on tithing but I suppose this is very much more critical to big churches. So the next question to ask is a doctrinal or teaching question: Is tithing Biblical? The answer is not surprising. It is! But perhaps the correct question to ask is "Is tithing Christian?" The answer may be surprising to many. It's not!
See http://truthforfree.com/html/article_Tithing-and-Clergy-Salaries.html
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hahahaha so proud. You want to check if CHC is "Christian"? I will enjoy you guys making a fool of yourself. UC we do not care if you call us Christian or not: we are CITY HARVEST CHURCH.
You guys think you're smart by trying to prove something which is already fact. Of course our doctrine deviates from historical churches. Our doctrine is based on Christianity butit is one of a kind and inspired by God.
We are a non-denominational church NOT formally aligned with established denominations. Pastor Kong explicitley rejects the concept of a formalized structure. It is our choice to be non-denominational because CHC disagrees with some of the theological points of view. We believe that our belief structure is unique. We believe that we are better off being autonomous, under the leadership of Pastor Kong. We have unconditional faith in Pastor Kong. If Pastor Kong leaves, we will follow. You can call that cultic, we don't care.
Do you think we do not know what upsets you, my so-called righteous brethren? We are warned about your arguments, and we are trained on how to reject. We avoid discussions with you out of respect and kindness. We prefer not to argue. We are strong in our belief while you are weak. We know and feel we are right. You have closed your heart for Jesus. You will never experience the miracles of healing and wealth if you do not open up your heart for Jesus.
Not everyone is against us. We associate with other churches around the world. These friendly churches are regularly invited to worship with us in Singapore:
- Yoido Full Gospel Church (Coming next month)
- Benny Hinn Ministries
- John Avanzini Ministries
- Steve Munsey Ministries
- Derek Dunn Ministries
- Hillsong Church ministries
- Lakeland Revival Church (Todd Bentley)
- Bethel Church (Bill Johnson coming this month)
...
You are free to oppose to our belief system or any of our friends above. We are sure you will. Get it into your heads "WE DO NOT CARE".
We are CITY HARVEST CHURCH - MY CHURCH, MY FAMILY, MY LIFE
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Originally posted by Zeeleewong:
You are free to oppose to our belief system or any of our friends above. We are sure you will. Get it into your heads "WE DO NOT CARE".
We are CITY HARVEST CHURCH - MY CHURCH, MY FAMILY, MY LIFE
If only this fanaticism can be used against the PAP.
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^^ auntie arguments.
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Originally posted by Zeeleewong:
hahahaha so proud. You want to check if CHC is "Christian"? I will enjoy you guys making a fool of yourself. UC we do not care if you call us Christian or not: we are CITY HARVEST CHURCH.
You guys think you're smart by trying to prove something which is already fact. Of course our doctrine deviates from historical churches. Our doctrine is based on Christianity butit is one of a kind and inspired by God.
We are a non-denominational church NOT formally aligned with established denominations. Pastor Kong explicitley rejects the concept of a formalized structure. It is our choice to be non-denominational because CHC disagrees with some of the theological points of view. We believe that our belief structure is unique. We believe that we are better off being autonomous, under the leadership of Pastor Kong. We have unconditional faith in Pastor Kong. If Pastor Kong leaves, we will follow. You can call that cultic, we don't care.
Do you think we do not know what upsets you, my so-called righteous brethren? We are warned about your arguments, and we are trained on how to reject. We avoid discussions with you out of respect and kindness. We prefer not to argue. We are strong in our belief while you are weak. We know and feel we are right. You have closed your heart for Jesus. You will never experience the miracles of healing and wealth if you do not open up your heart for Jesus.
Not everyone is against us. We associate with other churches around the world. These friendly churches are regularly invited to worship with us in Singapore:
- Yoido Full Gospel Church (Coming next month)
- Benny Hinn Ministries
- John Avanzini Ministries
- Steve Munsey Ministries
- Derek Dunn Ministries
- Hillsong Church ministries
- Lakeland Revival Church (Todd Bentley)
- Bethel Church (Bill Johnson coming this month)
...
You are free to oppose to our belief system or any of our friends above. We are sure you will. Get it into your heads "WE DO NOT CARE".
We are CITY HARVEST CHURCH - MY CHURCH, MY FAMILY, MY LIFE
24 But woe unto you that are arich! for ye have breceived your consolation.
25 Woe unto you that are full! for ye shall hunger. Woe unto you that laugh now! for ye shall mourn and weep.
26 Woe unto you, when all amen shall speak bwell of you! for so did their fathers to the false prophets.
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Originally posted by Zeeleewong:
hahahaha so proud. You want to check if CHC is "Christian"? I will enjoy you guys making a fool of yourself. UC we do not care if you call us Christian or not: we are CITY HARVEST CHURCH.
You guys think you're smart by trying to prove something which is already fact. Of course our doctrine deviates from historical churches. Our doctrine is based on Christianity butit is one of a kind and inspired by God.
We are a non-denominational church NOT formally aligned with established denominations. Pastor Kong explicitley rejects the concept of a formalized structure. It is our choice to be non-denominational because CHC disagrees with some of the theological points of view. We believe that our belief structure is unique. We believe that we are better off being autonomous, under the leadership of Pastor Kong. We have unconditional faith in Pastor Kong. If Pastor Kong leaves, we will follow. You can call that cultic, we don't care.
Do you think we do not know what upsets you, my so-called righteous brethren? We are warned about your arguments, and we are trained on how to reject. We avoid discussions with you out of respect and kindness. We prefer not to argue. We are strong in our belief while you are weak. We know and feel we are right. You have closed your heart for Jesus. You will never experience the miracles of healing and wealth if you do not open up your heart for Jesus.
Not everyone is against us. We associate with other churches around the world. These friendly churches are regularly invited to worship with us in Singapore:
- Yoido Full Gospel Church (Coming next month)
- Benny Hinn Ministries
- John Avanzini Ministries
- Steve Munsey Ministries
- Derek Dunn Ministries
- Hillsong Church ministries
- Lakeland Revival Church (Todd Bentley)
- Bethel Church (Bill Johnson coming this month)
...
You are free to oppose to our belief system or any of our friends above. We are sure you will. Get it into your heads "WE DO NOT CARE".
We are CITY HARVEST CHURCH - MY CHURCH, MY FAMILY, MY LIFE
we do not care whether you call us christians anot, we are city harvest church. WOW!! seriously i tot churches are meant for ppl of the christian faith as place of worship and now we've got ppl who have the church as its family and life but not the christian faith. BIC does it coincide with any of the faith/teaching thats supposed to be related to a church? I hope im right to tink that it is unrelated.
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Focussing on the first friendly churches on Zeeleewong's list (Thank you dear - keep up the good work)
David Yonggi Cho is an old friend and business associate of Kong Hee. There relationship goes way back. David is the very same who gave Kong Hee his MBA title. Besides religious ideas, Kong Hee copy/paste Yonggi Cho's organizational structure and implemented in City Harvest Church Singapore.
For those of you interested in a factual description, I recommend to read the book "McDonaldization of religion - Case Study: City Harvest Church Singapore" by sociology researcher Joy Tong (Purdue University and National University of Singapore).
By inviting David Cho into his house, Kong Hee is exposing his CHC flock to the teachings of David Cho.
As such, we are not wrong to say that Kong Hee and City Harvest Church endorse the teachings of David Cho. Lucky for us. with alledged 500,000 members, the David Cho's Yoido Full Gospel Church largely exceeds the 23,000 in CHC resulting in a lot more literature on David Cho than Kong Hee. (Flash - It just occurred to me that very little is written about Kong Hee if you discount his own publications about himself)
So what is David Cho, with approval from Kong Hee teaching my friend, your friends, your relatives in CHC? And how Christian are the teachings?
The Yiodo Full Gospel Church is the Korean version of a US Pentacostal church with one unique belief:
The Belief in the fourth dimension
Quoting David Cho: "Then God spoke to my heart, 'Son, as the second dimension includes and controls the first dimension, and the third dimension includes and controls the second dimension, so the fourth dimension includes and controls the third dimension, producing a creation of order and beauty. The spirit is the fourth dimension. Every human being is a spiritual being as well as a physical being. They have the fourth dimension as well as the third dimension in their hearts.' So men, by exploring their spiritual sphere of the fourth dimension through the development of concentrated visions and dreams in their imaginations, can brood over and incubate the third dimension, influencing and changing it. This is what the Holy Spirit taught me." — Cho, The Fourth Dimension 1979: p 40
Is this Christian? How do the CHC members respond to these teachings? Acceptance? Rejection? Indifference?
I asked my friend, and his reply was: It all makes sense to me, you would not understand. David Cho is a great man. God speaks to him.
I am baffled??? I wonder how the relatives and other friends react?
There are too many controversies to print - here are the last 3:
March 2011: Cho again became a subject of controversy when he reportedly made comments suggesting that the 2011 tsunami "could be a warning from God to Japan, which has become an increasingly materiallistic, secular and idol-worshiping country."
April, 2011: Cho was accused of nepotism by assigning his relatives to key church positions after his retirement.
September 2011: Korean federal prosecutors began an investigation on Cho, over the embezzlement of 23 billion won ($20 million USD) from the Yoido Full Gospel Church's funds, after 29 church elders filed complaints. A national broadcaster, MBC, released a documentary that claimed the money had been used to buy properties in the United States. At least Kong Hee beat his master on the timing of the investigation.
Yonggi will visit CHC in April. I will be there.
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James, you are welcome.
I am considering the possibility that our society is not at an advanced enough level to discern differences between leaders and philosophies.
The majority in society have barely the intellect to contemplate political policies that have direct impact on their lives. Some can't even tell that casinos are not a means to increase their wealth. What more notions of other-worldly realms and promises of eternal paradise? Don't get started on the various possible interpretations of any book that continues to interest the most learned scholars.
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@ Alize
Finally had the time to review your response from March 9.
I did understand "deeper level" wrongly, thanks for clearing up.
You wrote:" I think much also depends on the individual's predisposition to such teachings" I deduct from this that "unquestioned belief" is something that can he "teached".
How would you "teach" someone "unquestioned" belief?
Following your expose on "Emotion trumps logic quite easily", I can see how advertiser's use emotions to create a need. I ended up buying an iPhone against my logic. The mere fact that "everybody has an iPhone" played an important part. Looking back, it's quite amazing how I framed myself into buying this gadget. I am still making excuses to justify the buy.
However, this is just a phone. You can call it foolish but it is not irresponsible behaviour. To make me do something irresponsible, like stacking up debts or neglecting wife/children, it requires more than a sexy lady in a brochure. I doubt if advertisements could bring me to the point of acting irresponsible. It would take a non-stop indoctrination of my inner thoughts.
The more I read on this stuff, I am getting convinced that the only thing that is capable of changing my "Self", and spends enough time around me to have a lasting effect, is myself or my own mind/thoughts.
(I realize this sounds weird - hope I am making sense).
This leads me to believe that something just kicks off the thought-process. Once the thought-process is running, it will be difficult, if not impossible, to stop the thought-train.
I watch this experiment showing how easy your brain conspires against us. Once we make a decision, we defend our decision vigourously without any insights or details about the criteria. In the experiment people motivate decisions which they did not make. It shows that once we made up our minds, there is too much invested to backpaddle. Humans prefer to post-rationalize and prefer it was a great choice all along.
If people cannot win an argument against themselves, what changes do we have to make them see reason?
Life-changing thoughts do not appear in someone's head "out of nowhere".
People are responsible for their own choices, I agree.
Yet history shows that smart and intelligent people have done not so smart things.
What triggered them into acting against their reason?
or differently posed:
If you wanted to seed a thought in the head of a group of people, how would you do it?
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Did not see your reply...
Those are some harsh statements you make. Truth often hurts.
I do tend to believe that deep down, people that go to casinos, know they will not increase their health, but something more powerful is overriding the logic. I do not understand enough about the topic to see if body chemistry, endorphines, etc... or other factors play a role as well.
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meant wealth but health works to
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Damn scary the way some people think.