He's a stud, but she's a slut. Why?
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Yesterday I saw this postcard by AWARE with a similar statement to the topic sentence. "He's a stud, but she's a slut."
Is it true that no matter how open-minded we conceive ourselves to be, we're still trapped in our own minds? Do we really hold double standards as suggested above? That when a guy sleeps with a girl, he scores; when a girl sleeps with a guy, she's cheap.
As Singaporean women are slowly breaking down the barriers previously laid before us, as we are slowly gaining equal rights and equal opportunities, why are we still unable to gain equal respect?
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Well,
No matter how many things change... you cannot change your gender...
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Yes¿ No¿ Maybe¿ -
You cannot change the fact that casual sex always has the female in the more disadvantaged and vulnerable position. Men cannot get pregnant. Men cannot tear their hymens.
The line of thought then is that a woman in engaging in casual sex is sacrificing and putting herself in more personal danger than the man...
Society labels her a 'slut' because her lust for sex is greater than this personal danger that she has put herself in. The man's a stud because he is able to get the woman to put herself in a disadvantaged position to satisfy himself.
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(Incoherence in this post is explained by my listening to the Smashin' pumpkins while typing it out) -
unless there is a concious coordinated effort from the females to tell the guys that they are not taking it anymore, it'll stay around. Any idea how to start a sexual liberation rally?
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Why be difficult when with a little more effort you can be impossible? -
i think women often sabotage themselves whenever it comes to reifying stereotypes. all the male-designed outfits like the femme fatale, slut, SPG, docile maiden etc. have been happily filled by numerous women. the identity they adopt for themselves are constructed by the patriarchy and they don't even know it. even if they have some inkling, many persist in constructing the Self in this mould since there, as yet, has been no female construction of herself, at least not in s'pore.
its easy to say women are hapless creatures unwittingly categorised by men's labelling but it goes deeper than that. as long as women desire men's attention, to get ahead of the other woman, many are willing to play the game. participating in this game may be a female subversive play of power but it will continue to give labels a hint of truth.
its almost impossible to neutralise the concomitant 'values' of manhood and womanhood when it comes to sexual matters. perhaps one way to skirt around this would be to preach against promiscuity on both sides - hence lowering the 'status' of the stud and reducing STD, killing two birds with one stone.
cheerio -
About women filling in categories perfectly, I personally feel that there were always such women and men just created names for them. Furthermore, perhaps men desire for women like that, i.e. it gets the blood rushing down to the nether-land, but if you're that kinda girl, you ain't worth spending your life with. I say it's narrow-minded and a very flawed perception.
Females having to hide their sexuality just for the sake of reputation appears unnatural to me. It's not promiscuity that bothers me, but it seems that any girl who is sexually confident or just plain enjoys frolicking in bed isn't a lady. Instead of being appreciated for her confidence and straight-forwardness, i.e.: knowing what she wants, she's labeled a whore.
I know few Singaporean men who actually think this way. Mostly, this treat women with equal respect and as equals thing has worked out quite well. But I still have friends who call girls "good-time girls". My friend told me that the guys will always like to have you around, but once you leave, they'll say horrible things about you.
What I'm trying to bring up here is not the issue of sex, hymens or promiscuity. Rather, the issue of double standards all over the place. There's still this tint of sexual discrimination in Singapore. As a daughter of Singapore, I feel it, and I think it's pretty screwed up.
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rae-lyn,
if the expression of sexuality is not a bad thing in itself, then the way you describe the two types of women is rather telling.
for example,
'it gets the blood rushing down to the nether-land, but if you're that kinda girl, you ain't worth spending your life with.'
is this girl not also expressing her sexuality? sure, she may be simultaneously meeting the desires of men around her but she can't help that. all she can be responsible for is her expression. and what's the difference between her and
'but it seems that any girl who is sexually confident or just plain enjoys frolicking in bed isn't a lady. Instead of being appreciated for her confidence and straight-forwardness, i.e.: knowing what she wants, she's labeled a whore.' ???
if you except that it's all right for a girl to frolick in bed, then both girls, the one who does it because she wants to and the other that does it to be popular, should not be differently labelled right?
cheerio -
Just listened to "Man, I feel like a woman".
I think that's the attitude women should have. Just do whatever you want, if you know those guys are talking bad things about you, ditch 'em, girlfriends are ever fun, and there are so many guys. Terence, for one, will not say I'm promiscuous or a slut even if I tell him my darkest secrets.
You know why Japanese women made it to the cover of newsweek recently? Why ST highlighted their show of independence? And those Japanese women are not even defensive about it. They say, matter-of-factly, they have good jobs that pay well, good girlfriends, ability to travel and generally enjoy life on their own, why bother to marry. If you read the whole article that's all they say about the issue. The rest of the articles, some bewildered leaders of organization who just can't believe it's happening and it's staying.
Don't be too impressed with those Jap women. We know here in Singapore if we want to we can easily do the same. Complaining to men about their attitude only get
1) men who cannot touch the "power" women but begrudge their independence and in turn bitch to us
2) men who don't begrudge women anything but are sick of being sweeped into the big generalization, men.
Believe me, the best way to kick the first's asses and get the best men around is by doing exactly what you want and never stop to look around or asking understanding from strays.
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Why be difficult when with a little more effort you can be impossible? -
maya,
hmmm, i'm not into, what's her name?, sheena twain? but i'm familiar with the song. it does make me think though. i mean she seems to be singing not about female emancipation per se but emancipation vis-a-vis the rejection or trampling down of men. as such the song is more attack than proclaimation. what do you think? or am i just spouting mindless male rhetoric?
also, 'man! i feel like a woman' as a title seems rather self-defeating. i know its meant to be ironic and pun-like but consider this. if she uses 'man' as an expression of satisfaction, she is locating herself in male rhetoric isn't she? the feminist would say, yes, playing the man's game and beating him at it (btw, this argument is rejected by neo-feminists) - but isn't this another subjugation of women to patriarchal discourse? the fact that she needs to operate, function or play the game to achieve 'womanhood' seems circular to me. what do you think? don't whip me too hard.
cheerio -
Terence, you're too cynical. That song is nothing but another version of "girls just wanna have fun". I don't think it attacks men, it just says in a breezy way, yeah, we celebrate being women.
Hmm, wait till I get the lyrics to be posted here, okay. Meanwhile, I still say that it's no use devoting life to attack men. I think right now women have enough freedom not to be bothered too much by labels like promiscuous or sluttish. I am not well acquinted with what the feminists or neo feminists are up to. But if they really care about women they will find their time better spent if they do something about kidnapping of girls in Vietnam to be sold as prostitutes in Thailand, or how some Indian women are treated after their marriage by their inlaws and even their husbands, there are so many things to do yet why do we bother about being called sluts? Call me a slut and I can call the person more rude names. The end, right?
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Why be difficult when with a little more effort you can be impossible? -
Man! I Feel Like A Woman!
I'm going out tonight-I'm feelin' alright
Gonna let it all hang out
Wanna make some noise-really raise my voice
Yeah, I wanna scream and shout
No inhibitions-make no conditions
Get a little outta line
I ain't gonna act politically correct
I only wanna have a good time
The best thing about being a woman
Is the prerogative to have a little fun and...
Oh, oh, oh, go totally crazy-forget I'm a lady
Men's shirts-short skirts
Oh, oh, oh, really go wild-yeah, doin' it in style
Oh, oh, oh, get in the action-feel the attraction
Color my hair-do what I dare
Oh, oh, oh, I wanna be free-yeah, to feel the way I feel
Man! I feel like a woman!
The girls need a break-tonight we're gonna take
The chance to get out on the town
We don't need romance-we only wanna dance
We're gonna let our hair hang down
The best thing about being a woman
Is the prerogative to have a little fun and...
Oh, oh, oh, go totally crazy-forget I'm a lady
Men's shirts-short skirts
Oh, oh, oh, really go wild-yeah, doin' it in style
Oh, oh, oh, get in the action-feel the attraction
Color my hair-do what I dare
Oh, oh, oh, I wanna be free-yeah, to feel the way I feel
Man! I feel like a woman!
The best thing about being a woman
Is the prerogative to have a little fun and...
Oh, oh, oh, go totally crazy-forget I'm a lady
Men's shirts-short skirts
Oh, oh, oh, really go wild-yeah, doin' it in style
Oh, oh, oh, get in the action-feel the attraction
Color my hair-do what I dare
Oh, oh, oh, I wanna be free-yeah, to feel the way I feel
Man! I feel like a woman!
I get totally crazy
Can you feel it
Come, come, come on baby
I feel like a woman
I don't see any man bashing here, jut girls just wanna have a riot thang.
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Why be difficult when with a little more effort you can be impossible? -
MML,
ok, forget the song. (btw, i think cindy lauper's 'girls just wanna have fun' is miles better than twain).
its true that women have the leeway to do whatever they want - but the social consequences are severe. having more opportunities today does not mean the people around are more enlightened. read some of the posts from the males in this forum - nothing but neanderthals in baseball caps. the social rules are there to be broken, and unlike dynastic china or victorian england, you won't be ostracised or condemn outright. but make no mistake, the conservatism and moral hypocracy so prevalent in asian societies are alive and breeding in sunny s'pore.
so yes, by all means, crusade against white slavery or slavery of any colour, or gender, against clitoridectomy, against domestic violence - these are after all dire consequences of deeply impoverished views of women. but, and i say but, if one doesn't do anything about the more prevalent, the more 'acceptable' chauvinist views, the sexual jokes that deride women, a modern day gal can break all the social rules she wants - but she'll still be made to pay for it, and dearly.
cheerio. -
MML,
yeah, you're right. i was thinking of another twain song. however i still think she is empolying male rhetoric.
cheerio -
Terence:
I think any big change should be done in stages. You said that women should have a female reconstuction of themselves and not what the patriarchal society pigeonhole women into. I think really enjoying being women and stop looking at marriage as something that has to happen is finding a new self already. The stigma attached to these new women are still strong enough and as you said if we were to believe that some forumnites were really sincere when they acted like neanderthals, the ride will be bumpy. Passerbies like them should not matter much if one is really determined to change, one cannot please everybody after all. Can you give me some examples of the dear consequences a modern girl has to face? Naive as I am, I can't think of anything worse than being passed from a promotion.
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Why be difficult when with a little more effort you can be impossible? -
maya,
*nodding head*
true true, gradual change is the way. but that should be joined with on-going education. we can blame the media for their portrayal of women but when young people who are educated and reasonably intelligent continue to espouse gender bias opinions you have to wonder if its only external influence and not moral codification in routine living that perpetuate these notions. like i said, i think women are their worse enemies. they often cultivate modes of behaviour which play up stereotypes and whilst thinking their are employing them to their own benefit in a specific situation are actually undermining all the good work feminists of the late 60s have done. it has all gone down hill from there.
hmmm, consequences for the modern gal?
1. fracture of identity
2. alienation
3. social hostility
4. objectfication
cheerio -
The way I see it, if you want the rainbow you have to put up with the rain -- Dolly Parton
Terence:
When you mention women who fit themselves into the various stereotypes for their own benefit, the immediate thought is that cunning, or selfish, a woman will change her facade into something the 60's feminists would love when it suits her. Hopefully, men will see enough of these women not to fall for the old tricks again but I think the fact that they are manipulating men using things that men invented can be seen as being resourceful instead of detrimental to perception of women in the society.
Besides, it's very hard to please everyone. The new feminists mark themselves with saying to <sic> flozzies with super mini skirt </sic> "Your skirt is so short I can see your tampon string". Being overly judgemental and closed minded about mini skirts (the wearer may like the skirt only because it's mini and it's fun wearing so little) is not being helpful to women at large, too. I agree with that statement that women are their worst enemies.
While you have so much faith in education, I reserve mine only for the informal education one gets at home. Schools (at least those over here) don't seem to be able to inculcate any values trying as hard as they might. As for the new generations with the chauvinistic ideas, clearly what they have is received from education in their own homes and the company they've been keeping up with. They may grow out of it if they encounter more modern women in the streets.
Finally, if modern women want a rightful place in the world where they can *be* without any prejudice, they have to fight for it. Maybe this is not a politically correct example, but if the Jews had merely proclaim from German or the U.S. that their land occupied by the palestinians are the Jews' land, the Palestinians would simply laugh at them. To get their own ountry, Israel, the Jews had to physically occupy the land and brave the unhappy arabs. If modern women want any acknowledgement, they have to proudly exhibit their existence first, no matter what other people may say about it. Seeing them live on the streets is a better way of educating then talking about them in schools or even homes.
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Sex is not the answer. Sex is the question. Yes is the answer.
[This message has been edited by MayaJade (edited 08 April 2000).] -
MayaJade - Lead the way ... show all of them the woman power.
Fight for ur right ... dont give up.
Gather all the woman ... do something about it.
I would love to see more woman at the front line .. in buisness .. being the best cook in the world ... in politics ... human right .. bla..bla..bla..
BUT
Make sure iz not just being a NATO. Tok about Jews History ... r u sure they have country at the very first place???
Anyway NATO = No Action Talk Only
Talk iz cheap.... very cheap. -
maya,
you seem to be leaning heavily on conceptual notions of a modern woman. tell me, what is a modern woman? how do you identify her? what does she want? how must she go about getting it whilst remaining being modern?
fight for it? sure. how? doing whatever they please? ok, can do. doesn't that mean sacrifice? you don't see men complaining about not being able to spend time with little julian because he is spending 16 hr days at the office because he is free from the social 'burden'. lets see the modern woman do that. 16 hr days and still managing to raise little julian without a nanny is not an issue for a woman who wants it all. something has to give - the choice she makes defines her - like it defines the man. hence, the fight you so badly want is not a win-win situation.
cheerio -
rae-lyn,
Your question on the double-standard being applied to men and women in the sexual arena is the extension of the age old issue of power.
The stronger overrules the weaker and the double-standard is a tool by which the stronger is able to justify one's action or superiority over the weaker.
Think about that the next time you hear a parent instruct their child, "Do as I say, not as I do." -
agreed. double standards still exist in too many places. but can u say u r not at fault too?
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Well, if you ain't a victim of such a conspiracy, just be grateful. Thank God that I'm a man! I don't have to defend myself against such baseless accusations.
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rae-lyn,
Remember the recent anal sex case. The public prosecution was smart. They charged the poor guy under the penal code for unnatural sex, and not for use of force, for the was no use of force at all. Indeed, it was anal sex between consenting adults. The couple had sex regularly, and had anal sex on 2 occassions (about a fortnight apart). And the gal only reported to the police after she found out that the guy was two timing her.
Now I dont think the judge was wrong in finding the man guilty of anal sex. If the law was wrong, thats another matter and something for parliament to decide , not the courts. So the judge wasnt wrong to find the man guilty. But what about the gal? Since there was no force involved, why did the gal get away scot free? Shouldnt she be punished since she also engaged in anal sex. Where is justice and equality? Bring me justice bao.
This isnt the only instance. Many times in the past, when a man was wrong accused for rape or molest, he got aquitted while nothing happened to the gal (she should rightly be charged for perjury of the courts). The poor man would have a doubt cast over his reputation inspite of the acquittal while the gal (whose identity wasnt revealed) got no punishment for making false accusations.
Just very curious about this anal sex case. The man was found guilty of having anal sex with the gal. There wasnt any use of force. Since it was anal sex between 2 consenting adults, isnt the girl guilty of breaking the law on unnatural sex as well? Why did the public prosecution single out the man only? Any lawyers here care to comment? -
Hmm, u can't have your piece of cake and eat it, can you? *LUFFZ* No matter how the society advances, there can never be gender equality! Traditional values still stay and there are MANY who EXPECT women to behave this way, to talk that way and blah blah blah.
It's like ladies want the guys to be more GENTLEMANLY and yet expects EQUALITY, kinda absurb huh? And weirdly, guys will wanna screw some gals but EXPECT their gals to be UNtouched! *LUFFZ* That's the irony of it all!
Anyway, hopefully as the society improves, there really CAN be gender equality?? Meanwhile, we ladies will just have to bear with our guy counterparts!
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Do Pixies like a rainy day?
A-piping through the dell?
The Pixies must enjoy the rain;
Thats when they weave their spell.
Rain drops, rain drops
Play a Pixie-tune
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Ask for a salary raise.
We argue about the details when we dont get enough money
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Believing... In the eyes of the beholder.Originally posted by rae-lyn:What I'm trying to bring up here is not the issue of sex, hymens or promiscuity. Rather, the issue of double standards all over the place. There's still this tint of sexual discrimination in Singapore. As a daughter of Singapore, I feel it, and I think it's pretty screwed up.
Pretty much good debates going on between Maya and Terence... <- Sorry but don't really have time and sure is regretful that I'm missing out alot of interesting information....
Rae-lynn: Since it's YOUR TOPIC and your subject here, let me point my arrow to YOU.
HISTORY: Dates back to the past. When women have no say and no status in this society.
But women LEARNT to break through fairly quickly.... I must admit that before all this discrimination craps came out AGAIN, women were doing fairly well for a CHANGE, for a START.... If fact, many still ARE...
Women were no longer like they used to. They dressed up, take control, gain independence.... But only to be going in the wrong direction.... The direction that they wanted to break free from. The ATTENTIONS of the guys. They were WRONG in the sense that they went for POWER and ATTENTION.... So what's with all the beauty and outstanding status if there're no one to appreciate it? the TURN of direction was from there.... They went back to from they started from, headed back for the same direction... GUYS were LOST when the women FIRST rebel....
Now guys TOO have LEARNT.... They too have 'upgarded' their looks.... And caught up.... But YET, they also SET UP another CONSPIRACY at the same time. The NAMING game. To group and categorised women in the way the GUYS wanna see them. BLIND women went on into believing in the GUYS' categorising just because the women shown trends or likes of the categorising... Also women WANTED attention... AND they did not wanna be LEFT OUT of this GAME... The game of ATTENTION... Let me CLARIFY something at this point... NO MATTER how close you sound like a particular category OR class, you're NEVER the SAME... Because if a category is to put MORE than 2 'subjects' into the same grouping... Then I'm telling you that NO 2 WOMEN would ever be the SAME PERSON.... And that's just how it works.... By allowing yourself to be categorised you are DISCARDING yourself and fitting into the MOULD that the GUYS want you to be IN.... And the RULES of the GAME is you'll NEVER WIN.... Cause you're playing a GUYS' GAME......
Rae-lynn, for your answer.... Discrimination DON'T HAPPEN just like that... The people who discriminate you are the ones PLAYING the GUYS' GAME.... They can be WOMEN who are believers of the GAME themselves... OR GUYS who just ENJOY the benefits of the GAME..... Don't be LOST... Be YOURSELF.... Don't forsake the GUYS... But don't LEAN against them neither... For a moment there I thought you girls were doing pretty well for a change...? Please don't let me down?
LAST thing to add... There're ALSO some VERY SMART WOMEN out there (You know who you are? ) Using the GAME of the GUYS against themselves.... To allow themselves to fall into category (Or at least seemingly SO), and yet still having their own STYLES, THINKING and WAYs.... Dangerous babes....
Guess LIFE just ain't the same anymore..? ANYWAY, I'm tired of all these GAMEs...... I'm OUT... GAME OVER.....
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ße COOL, NOT s¢rr¥....