Where does Consciousness come from?
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After subtracting out all external sensory data, it turns out that one can still "see" images, "hear" sounds, "feel" sensations, "taste" flavors, "smell" odors -- one does not have to use the physical sense organs to have these experiences. For example, when dreaming, it seems as if we are seeing things, but we aren't using our physical eyes at all. It seems as if we are hearing things, feeling things, etc., but we aren't using our real physical sense organs to experience these events. They are completely mental, completely imaginary. So in fact, all sensory experiences can arise within consciousness itself, without necessarily having any sense organs at all.
Given the above, there is no logical reason to assume that awareness is taking place "inside" of our brain, mind, body or anything else for that matter. Awareness has no particular form, no size, no shape, no color, no substance, no energy, no dimensions -- so how can we say it has a location or can be contained by anything?
If awareness has no location, then how can we say that it is anywhere? Or that it isn't anywhere? And in that case, how do we know that awareness is "inside" the universe, rather than the opposite? Maybe the universe is actually "inside" of awareness? In our previous thought-experiment, we arrived at a level in which there are no external sensations yet awareness is still present. Furthermore, as we know from dreaming, even without using the external sense organs the mind can experience any sensation as if it were a real "external" and "physical" sensation. So the question is, given that the mind can do this, how can we tell whether or not what appear to be our present physical, external sensations are actually existing in the way that they appear? How can we be certain they are any different from mental-hallucinations or dreams? How can we be certain that what is appearing isn't simply a dream or hallucination taking place in the field of awareness? -
It comes from knowing you're gonna post a reply in this thread with one of your clones soon.
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dont think so much la..life is weird..we can only know the truth after we mati
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trying to be einstein?
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aww man... u're such a thinker.
haha, but I don't have dreams nowadays. And neither do I hallucinate... -
It comes from within
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Hi SixSentinels,
You might like to join three of the spiritual forums that I hang out on (I post as Kyo Kusanagi) :
Astral Pulse forums :
http://www.astralpulse.com/forums/index.php
Afterlife Knowledge forum :
http://www.afterlife-knowledge.com/cgi-bin/yabb/YaBB.cgi#general_cat
Near-Death discussion forum :
http://neardeath.ipbhost.com/index.php
You probably already hang out on some other spiritual forums. Want to share their urls here for everyone? -
Yes we are not certain. Even if one day, a science breakthrough happens, we manage to discover ourselves in the "real world" and out of this "dream", how can we be so sure, that "real world" is indeed real and not another "dream"?Originally posted by SixSentinels:After subtracting out all external sensory data, it turns out that one can still "see" images, "hear" sounds, "feel" sensations, "taste" flavors, "smell" odors -- one does not have to use the physical sense organs to have these experiences. For example, when dreaming, it seems as if we are seeing things, but we aren't using our physical eyes at all. It seems as if we are hearing things, feeling things, etc., but we aren't using our real physical sense organs to experience these events. They are completely mental, completely imaginary. So in fact, all sensory experiences can arise within consciousness itself, without necessarily having any sense organs at all.
Given the above, there is no logical reason to assume that awareness is taking place "inside" of our brain, mind, body or anything else for that matter. Awareness has no particular form, no size, no shape, no color, no substance, no energy, no dimensions -- so how can we say it has a location or can be contained by anything?
If awareness has no location, then how can we say that it is anywhere? Or that it isn't anywhere? And in that case, how do we know that awareness is "inside" the universe, rather than the opposite? Maybe the universe is actually "inside" of awareness? In our previous thought-experiment, we arrived at a level in which there are no external sensations yet awareness is still present. Furthermore, as we know from dreaming, even without using the external sense organs the mind can experience any sensation as if it were a real "external" and "physical" sensation. So the question is, given that the mind can do this, how can we tell whether or not what appear to be our present physical, external sensations are actually existing in the way that they appear? How can we be certain they are any different from mental-hallucinations or dreams? How can we be certain that what is appearing isn't simply a dream or hallucination taking place in the field of awareness?
Endless cycle eh? -
Pure Awareness does not come from a cause, it is said to be unborn, and therefore undying. It is not an object, materialless, yet nowhere is it not found. Therefore it is known as all-pervading and omnipresent. The true nature of ourselves is only this Pure Awareness. When we do not impute reality, it is mere Pure Awareness, neither is there seperation of inner and outer. But every time when a condition and cause arise, contact is made, perception arise almost immediately, that is the problem. Therefore the immediate Awareness is not known. Pure Awareness is like a clear bright mirror that reflects anything that comes in its way, but due to our illusions, it is covered up like a layer of dust on top of the mirror.
Conventionally, all the 'things' we see, hear, etc, experience, all these things are dream-like, they are all conditioned arisings, empty. Since they are empty, it is ungraspable.
So it doesnt mean phenomenal existence is seperate from our true nature of pure awareness. There is no purest state, every moment NOW is purest. Every moment is Pure Awareness (although he might not be mindful and aware). Whether in dream or in life, whether one is delusioned or enlightened, his true nature is not lessened or increased. It is only the matter of ignorance or awakening.
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Chuang-Tzu once dreamed he was a butterfly. When he awoke, he no longer knew if he was a butterfly dreaming he was a man, or a man who had dreamed he was a butterfly.
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"Besides, we all talk of 'me.' How do you know what is this 'me' that we speak of? You dream you are a bird, and soar to heaven, or dream you are a fish, and dive into the ocean's depths. And you cannot tell whether the man now speaking is awake or in a dream. "A man feels a pleasurable sensation before he smiles, and smiles before he thinks how he ought to smile. Resign yourself to the sequence of things, forgetting the changes of life, and you shall enter into the pure, the divine, the One."
- Chuang Tzu
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The Tao is omnipresent, even in excrement.
Tung-kuo Tzu asked Chuang Tzu "Where is the Tao?"
`It is everywhere,' replied Chuang Tzu.
Tung-kuo Tzu said "You must be more specific."
"It is in the ant" said Chuang Tzu.
"Why go down so low?"
"It is in the weeds."
"Why even lower?"
"It is in a potsherd."
"Why still lower?"
"It is in the excrement and urine," said Chuang Tzu.
There is nothing that is not so-and-so. There is nothing that is not all right. [ii]
The space under the sky is occupied by all things in their unity. [xxi] -
Like I've said; you better go see a shrink, quick.
Don't delay any longer! -
Several months ago,
[22:37] so far what do u understand about awareness?
[22:38] hmm like u say lor... awareness is never lost
[22:39] what is awareness right now?
[22:39] when u say thought arises, is thought awareness?
[22:41] thought is not awareness, but there is awareness of thought
[22:41] lol
[22:41] so what is thought?
[22:42] and where is awareness?
[22:42] same like taste, is the taste awareness?
[22:45] i think u cant define awareness to a 'thing'
[22:45] so is taste or thought a thing?
[22:47] u practice meditation now right?
[22:47]
[22:47] never practise for quite some time
[22:47] taste or thought is not a thing
[22:47] lol
[22:49] so do u think awareness is a party behind thinking thought or experiencing taste?
[22:49]
[22:49] lol
[22:49] no
[22:49] taste is not a thing, then what is it?
[22:50] just the awareness
[22:50] lol
[22:50] experience this awareness with totality. -
i dont think theres anything wrong with me questioning life, is there? just because u dont think like me does not mean that i am different from u...Originally posted by ShutterBug:Like I've said; you better go see a shrink, quick.
Don't delay any longer! -
i hang out here:Originally posted by UltimaOnline:Hi SixSentinels,
You might like to join three of the spiritual forums that I hang out on (I post as Kyo Kusanagi) :
Astral Pulse forums :
http://www.astralpulse.com/forums/index.php
Afterlife Knowledge forum :
http://www.afterlife-knowledge.com/cgi-bin/yabb/YaBB.cgi#general_cat
Near-Death discussion forum :
http://neardeath.ipbhost.com/index.php
You probably already hang out on some other spiritual forums. Want to share their urls here for everyone?
http://www.unexplained-mysteries.com/forum/ -
everyone dreams, whether u remember it or not. one can have from 1-12 dreams a night.Originally posted by X3Mi5t:aww man... u're such a thinker.
haha, but I don't have dreams nowadays. And neither do I hallucinate... -
you seem to have too much time on your hands...
you should get a girlfriend or something like that -
my conscious tells me u if u copy and paste from a source, quote the source link...
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its in born and cannot be explain in written..
sometimes, certain things are just there, but cant be explained...conscious is one of them...
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from within you.
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The thread was written without any knowledge of the physiology and psychology. If we wouldn't have senses, we wouldn't dream and sense in the dreams. The blind dream without pictures, the deaf dream without sounds. Dreams reflect our experiences from senses. Also dreams have more deeper meaning, but I am reacting only the rubbish that we don't need senses to perceive and that we can dream of sensation without senses.
Sometimes we can dream and sense in the dream even if we wouldn't have senses, it's the case when we dream of experiences from our past lives. -
THERE YOU GO AGAIN.... COPY and PASTE SOMETHING WITHOUT STATING your PURPOSE NOR INTENTION(S)....Originally posted by SixSentinels:After subtracting out all external sensory data, it turns out that one can still "see" images, "hear" sounds, "feel" sensations, "taste" flavors, "smell" odors -- one does not have to use the physical sense organs to have these experiences. For example, when dreaming, it seems as if we are seeing things, but we aren't using our physical eyes at all. It seems as if we are hearing things, feeling things, etc., but we aren't using our real physical sense organs to experience these events. They are completely mental, completely imaginary. So in fact, all sensory experiences can arise within consciousness itself, without necessarily having any sense organs at all.
Given the above, there is no logical reason to assume that awareness is taking place "inside" of our brain, mind, body or anything else for that matter. Awareness has no particular form, no size, no shape, no color, no substance, no energy, no dimensions -- so how can we say it has a location or can be contained by anything?
If awareness has no location, then how can we say that it is anywhere? Or that it isn't anywhere? And in that case, how do we know that awareness is "inside" the universe, rather than the opposite? Maybe the universe is actually "inside" of awareness? In our previous thought-experiment, we arrived at a level in which there are no external sensations yet awareness is still present. Furthermore, as we know from dreaming, even without using the external sense organs the mind can experience any sensation as if it were a real "external" and "physical" sensation. So the question is, given that the mind can do this, how can we tell whether or not what appear to be our present physical, external sensations are actually existing in the way that they appear? How can we be certain they are any different from mental-hallucinations or dreams? How can we be certain that what is appearing isn't simply a dream or hallucination taking place in the field of awareness? -
Originally posted by An Eternal Now:
Hmm... Is Buddhism and Taoism closely related...?
Pure Awareness does not come from a cause, it is said to be [b]unborn, and therefore undying. It is not an object, materialless, yet nowhere is it not found. Therefore it is known as all-pervading and omnipresent. The true nature of ourselves is only this Pure Awareness. When we do not impute reality, it is mere Pure Awareness, neither is there seperation of inner and outer. But every time when a condition and cause arise, contact is made, perception arise almost immediately, that is the problem. Therefore the immediate Awareness is not known. Pure Awareness is like a clear bright mirror that reflects anything that comes in its way, but due to our illusions, it is covered up like a layer of dust on top of the mirror.
Conventionally, all the 'things' we see, hear, etc, experience, all these things are dream-like, they are all conditioned arisings, empty. Since they are empty, it is ungraspable.
So it doesnt mean phenomenal existence is seperate from our true nature of pure awareness. There is no purest state, every moment NOW is purest. Every moment is Pure Awareness (although he might not be mindful and aware). Whether in dream or in life, whether one is delusioned or enlightened, his true nature is not lessened or increased. It is only the matter of ignorance or awakening.
----
Chuang-Tzu once dreamed he was a butterfly. When he awoke, he no longer knew if he was a butterfly dreaming he was a man, or a man who had dreamed he was a butterfly.
-----
"Besides, we all talk of 'me.' How do you know what is this 'me' that we speak of? You dream you are a bird, and soar to heaven, or dream you are a fish, and dive into the ocean's depths. And you cannot tell whether the man now speaking is awake or in a dream. "A man feels a pleasurable sensation before he smiles, and smiles before he thinks how he ought to smile. Resign yourself to the sequence of things, forgetting the changes of life, and you shall enter into the pure, the divine, the One."
- Chuang Tzu
------
The Tao is omnipresent, even in excrement.
Tung-kuo Tzu asked Chuang Tzu "Where is the Tao?"
`It is everywhere,' replied Chuang Tzu.
Tung-kuo Tzu said "You must be more specific."
"It is in the ant" said Chuang Tzu.
"Why go down so low?"
"It is in the weeds."
"Why even lower?"
"It is in a potsherd."
"Why still lower?"
"It is in the excrement and urine," said Chuang Tzu.
There is nothing that is not so-and-so. There is nothing that is not all right. [ii]
The space under the sky is occupied by all things in their unity. [xxi][/b] -
Yes. Why not? Wise words remain wise no matter whether they origin in buddhism or taoism or anything else.Originally posted by Devil1976:Hmm... Is Buddhism and Taoism closely related...? -
At least both religion are never close to Cristianity which is good..phew..
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Yes, especially Lao Tzu's teachings. Taoism has no relation with Buddhism, especially during Lao Tzu and Chuang Tzu's times, Buddhism is not in contact with China yet. But Lao Tzu's realisations are truly great. But pls take note that Modern Taoism is not the same as that practised in the past.Originally posted by Devil1976:Hmm... Is Buddhism and Taoism closely related...? At least both religion are never close to Cristianity which is good..phew..
You may be surprised. Every major religion has its 'contemplative' side and their realisations are similar. There are subtler differences in terms of the level of understanding of emptiness as compared to Buddhism, but all contemplatives and mystics from all traditions do have glimpses into their Buddha Nature/God Nature/Pure Consciousness. There is a mystic from the New Age side, longchen, he also had his realisations and discusses on my forum. He is not a Buddhist but recalled his past life as a Tibetan monk 2 lifetimes ago.
See: http://members.aol.com/Heraklit1/eckhart.htm - Christian Mystics
http://hometown.aol.com/heraklit1/ibnarabi.htm - Sufi Muslim Mystics
http://www.ramana-maharshi.org/books.htm - Hindu/Advaita
You realise those who are into contemplation, whether christian, sufi mystics (which is why I posted sufi links in the islam forum - The True Meaning of Jihad), etc, buddhists, they never have a history of violence. It is always those religious scholarly types who are binded by dogmas and they are the ones who are intolerant and fought wars, and are highly egotistic.Originally posted by An Eternal Now:
[b]No fanaticism
Of Buddhism alone can it be affirmed it is free from all fanaticism. Its aim being to produce in every man a thorough internal transforming by self-conquest, how can it have recourse to might or money or even persuasion for effecting conversion? The Buddha has only shown the way to salvation, and it is left to each individual to decide for himself if he would follow it.
- Prof. Lakshmi Narasu, "The Essence of Buddhism"[/b] -
i think u misunderstood. i didnt mention that a blind person can dream of pictures or a deaf person can dream of sounds. i said, even a blind, deaf, numb person knows hes alive, hes aware of his existance. thats what consciousness is.Originally posted by thinkdifferent:The thread was written without any knowledge of the physiology and psychology. If we wouldn't have senses, we wouldn't dream and sense in the dreams. The blind dream without pictures, the deaf dream without sounds. Dreams reflect our experiences from senses. Also dreams have more deeper meaning, but I am reacting only the rubbish that we don't need senses to perceive and that we can dream of sensation without senses.
Sometimes we can dream and sense in the dream even if we wouldn't have senses, it's the case when we dream of experiences from our past lives.