Normal Stream - What's your view
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There will always be late bloomers.
I know of many people who were flunking their studies when young, but are now degree holders with MBAs, CPAs, CFAs or some other professional qualifications and doing well in life.
So kids who are struggling now in their studies, you have time on your side, there is still hope.
Yeah, hope.
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Originally posted by pistonf:
i currently give tuition to sec 4 NA students in my secondary school. 1 thing i have to say is that the difference between Na students and express students is the attitude and performance in certain core subjects such as english.What i believe is that the different streams is to group similiar people together.This to a certain extent helps prevent the "contamination" of people which as i said earlier is the difference of attitude. Therefore i believe it is unfair to say that there should be no streams. In essense the grouping is to allow teachers to teach at a pace that is most efficient and prevent express students from learning poor values from Na students such as laziness which i find is a common trait amongst most that i know.( i was in ncc so i had platoonmates that were NA and NT
My english in secondary school is very strong. My mother tongue was crap to sh*t because we don't even use it at home.
You are generalising all normal stream students based on the students you met . In my personal opinion, most are already demoralised when they enter normal stream. Why bother with your studies when you know you are already condemned in the system? Singapore is known as the no second chances society. I know it as a former normal stream student.
FFS there are even Singaporean postgraduate scholarships which look at your freaking secondary school results and the duration of your schooling betrays you as a normal student. Overseas , they do not care how you performed in secondary school , they want to know how you performed in your basic degree , the skills and the work experience you have . Screw the scholarship I had from university - yes a foreign university gave me a scholarship for being the top 2 international students in the cohort but being in normal ( some even ask for your freaking PSLE results last time) crap my chances to pieces when I tried to apply for another scholarship in Singapore. I was literally LAUGHED at by a former employer for even bothering to try.
I can only say ....overseas gave me opportunities I never dreamt of and yet I earnt them by merit. It is really funny because I see the next generation of Singaporean normal stream school kids getting screwed over by this system and your late bloomers will have to consider running out to get opportunities denied by a no second chances society.
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>homework forum.
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Originally posted by pistonf:
i currently give tuition to sec 4 NA students in my secondary school. 1 thing i have to say is that the difference between Na students and express students is the attitude and performance in certain core subjects such as english.What i believe is that the different streams is to group similiar people together.This to a certain extent helps prevent the "contamination" of people which as i said earlier is the difference of attitude. Therefore i believe it is unfair to say that there should be no streams. In essense the grouping is to allow teachers to teach at a pace that is most efficient and prevent express students from learning poor values from Na students such as laziness which i find is a common trait amongst most that i know.( i was in ncc so i had platoonmates that were NA and NT
The attitude has been shaped from a young age. The teachers themselves think that these are gone case students, and this mindset will slowly shift itself from the teachers to the students. Streaming at a young age will stream their mindset along the down path; it's very hard to break away because you will not be given a 2nd chance (especially those who were streamed into EM3 in pri sch; their PSLE grade can never meet express standards in the better schools, even if they score full marks). By condemning them so early, even if they are late bloomers, they need extra effort to just meet the minimum requirements of the "better" streams.
Of course there are many exceptions. I have taught a sec 5 student before. It was a big jump from N to O level for him, but his work attitude was especially commendable. Although I charge by 2 hrs per lessons, it's students like this that I will go the extra mile at times, and reach till 2.5 hrs per lesson (fyi, I stop exactly at 2 hrs usually; dun need much time to think of answers for maths and physics). But imagine... one year was wasted even though he could still score very well for Os.
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Originally posted by fymk:
I can only say ....overseas gave me opportunities I never dreamt of and yet I earnt them by merit. It is really funny because I see the next generation of Singaporean normal stream school kids getting screwed over by this system and your late bloomers will have to consider running out to get opportunities denied by a no second chances society.
You see how LKY tried to condemn CST by comparing his O level results to Mah Bow Tan's in the ~1983 GE at Potong Pasir, then you know already
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Normal and Express streams are merely just seperated by one particular digit on that spectrum of numbers. There are people who are from the upper-express (special) portion of the population, while there are those we are pseudo-express (200-210 range?). It is very vague to express express as if it a single unity. Like wise for normal, there are the "almost express" stream (those in higher NA), and the really low ones (NT).
But foremost I would like to nulify the effect of any exceptions. There are (like other people have said), express students who retain and normal students who do exceptionally well. Well, there are, just like how our water we drink is not entirely made up of water molecules. We are refering to the majority, not the exceptional cases. There are non-graduates who make it big and rich, well, how many are there? Thus, in any case, using exceptions to prove a trend is definitely out.
The original purpose of both streams of the academic heirarchy is to differentiate between the intellectual and the non-intellectual. A very fundamental flaw of this system branches from the very fact that using examinations to test intelligence might be inaccurate, however, there is no other way. In fact, those who can do their job well would naturally be given higher order tasks. The one who can cope progresses and improves. Hence, How are we ever going to integrate people who have shown (or created) huge disparity in "intelligence" between the norm into the regular system. Thus, people below a certain score, have to be filtered from the regular system.
This is the harsh fact of reality. Now the crux of the problem here is about normal stream students not accepting their position. There are some who work hard and successfully transcend into the regular system. However, for some, instead of doing something about it, it can be quite evident that they either induldge in self pity, have no idea what's going on, continue to live in delusion, and blaming society for exlusiveness of everyone else except themselves.
Initally, there were no ill intentions of the express normal stream division. It was all in the name of pragmatism and I believe it's intentions were pure. I'm sure the problem of an inevitable heirarchy being formed is surely an unsolvable one. The effort to label seemingly intelligently not so-normal people as normal is a tactful subterfuge, It brings us to the overused statement "if not that you're lousy, it's just that others are better". Well, again, everything is relative.
Personally, I have nothing against normal stream students. However, it is good to keep in mind that the perspective and attitude of both groups might vary to a very large extent. For example, a normal student aims for poly but for an express student, going to poly involuntarily (which means they don't have a choice) is failure to them. This is the harsh disparity here we are talking about. Normal students are aiming for where higher express students don't want to go.
Sadly, I was from a school with both express and normal stream. There was a boundary between both classes. (not-so-literally). The normal people had their own lifestyle, their own culture and even teachers would compare. When an express class was behaving in an unacceptable manner, they would go "stop behaving as if you're from normal". If one scores a really horrid f9 in an examination, they always seem to like to say "why not go to normal stream and study" in an acerbic, sarcastic manner. My point, even educators who are in that field experience the huge disparity. -
How strange the education system has gone.
Normal = Abnormal
Express = Normal
Special = Really Special.
It's really time to revamp this archaic system.
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Originally posted by eagle:
You see how LKY tried to condemn CST by comparing his O level results to Mah Bow Tan's in the ~1983 GE at Potong Pasir, then you know already
Really?I didn't know that.
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only creams come from RI and SJI
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Some are late bloomers.
Some are just weak at a particular field, say the sciences or the arts.
Some are just lazy.
Some just lack confident so cannot do well.
Some simply have no interest in studying.
Some are just born stupid?
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Originally posted by weewee:
Some are late bloomers.
Some are just weak at a particular field, say the sciences or the arts.
Some are just lazy.
Some just lack confident so cannot do well.
Some simply have no interest in studying.
Some are just born stupid?
That would be you.
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Just my personal view on the 5 years normal acad and the 4 years express in our education system in Singapore.
To start off, i was from Normal Academic.
I hope this post wont offend anyone.
I think if given a choice, i would rather not have PSLE in primary 6 to differentiate us in terms of academic capability. I believe i am one who suffered from that.
First of all, during my time, Express student take 7 subjects while the NA took 6 subjects despite having to study for 5years. It doesnt make sense right?
If to choose, for an express student to drop any subject they dislike, they still have 6 to study for the exam. Let say, one of the 6 flop, at least they still get to have 5 good result to enter poly. N(A) student, studies 6, hate 1 of those, and fail 1 of the rest. They have to repeat.
In short, i believe in late-bloomers. I have to tell myself this and believe in this.
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Originally posted by augustkyle:
Just my personal view on the 5 years normal acad and the 4 years express in our education system in Singapore.
To start off, i was from Normal Academic.
I hope this post wont offend anyone.
I think if given a choice, i would rather not have PSLE in primary 6 to differentiate us in terms of academic capability. I believe i am one who suffered from that.
First of all, during my time, Express student take 7 subjects while the NA took 6 subjects despite having to study for 5years. It doesnt make sense right?
If to choose, for an express student to drop any subject they dislike, they still have 6 to study for the exam. Let say, one of the 6 flop, at least they still get to have 5 good result to enter poly. N(A) student, studies 6, hate 1 of those, and fail 1 of the rest. They have to repeat.
In short, i believe in late-bloomers. I have to tell myself this and believe in this.
agree.. the sg system is rather unfair. if u look overseas, they dun always judge u by ur academic perfomance. there's much more to a person than just academic excellence. a snobbish person with straight A's wont make it far in life, but a humble, good hearted person who does average or below average i believe he would make it much farther in life.i hope in future the education system do not focus so heavily just on academic result, but look at the student as a whole. our system now is only looking at result, which may be the weak point for some students, to them it is unfair.
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Originally posted by SBS7484P:
agree.. the sg system is rather unfair. if u look overseas, they dun always judge u by ur academic perfomance. there's much more to a person than just academic excellence. a snobbish person with straight A's wont make it far in life, but a humble, good hearted person who does average or below average i believe he would make it much farther in life.i hope in future the education system do not focus so heavily just on academic result, but look at the student as a whole. our system now is only looking at result, which may be the weak point for some students, to them it is unfair.
The education system should be seen as a tool for our life that we use. If we rely too much on it, aren't we asking too much? -
which is exactly wads happening now. ppl first thing they wanna see how u fare for ur o level, a level, blabla. u dun do good they kick u out str8away. they should be impartial, and also judge based on the person's character, not just academic achievement
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Originally posted by SBS7484P:
which is exactly wads happening now. ppl first thing they wanna see how u fare for ur o level, a level, blabla. u dun do good they kick u out str8away. they should be impartial, and also judge based on the person's character, not just academic achievement
It's like that........we usually do this as well, preferring to look at figures above other things. -
i realise that too. its only cos most employers locally are alrdy used to doing such as a standard, and not getting the full story.
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I've been through both streams...lol
in the end it doesn't matter wot stream you go to if you are taking O's in the end...lol...
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Normanimals.
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Originally posted by eagle:
The attitude has been shaped from a young age. The teachers themselves think that these are gone case students, and this mindset will slowly shift itself from the teachers to the students. Streaming at a young age will stream their mindset along the down path; it's very hard to break away because you will not be given a 2nd chance (especially those who were streamed into EM3 in pri sch; their PSLE grade can never meet express standards in the better schools, even if they score full marks). By condemning them so early, even if they are late bloomers, they need extra effort to just meet the minimum requirements of the "better" streams.
Of course there are many exceptions. I have taught a sec 5 student before. It was a big jump from N to O level for him, but his work attitude was especially commendable. Although I charge by 2 hrs per lessons, it's students like this that I will go the extra mile at times, and reach till 2.5 hrs per lesson (fyi, I stop exactly at 2 hrs usually; dun need much time to think of answers for maths and physics). But imagine... one year was wasted even though he could still score very well for Os.
u r so noble. clap clap
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normal acad stream is ok to me when i got into it. since most ppl during my time get into na stream . but when i got into sec 5 i feel like it's wasting time.. should have work hard to get into express to save my precious 1 year of life..
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"Get out of my elite uncaring face"
Yes, a student can actually tell this to a 30 something working adult.
This is the system we have in sg.
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Originally posted by fymk:
My english in secondary school is very strong. My mother tongue was crap to sh*t because we don't even use it at home.
You are generalising all normal stream students based on the students you met . In my personal opinion, most are already demoralised when they enter normal stream. Why bother with your studies when you know you are already condemned in the system? Singapore is known as the no second chances society. I know it as a former normal stream student.
FFS there are even Singaporean postgraduate scholarships which look at your freaking secondary school results and the duration of your schooling betrays you as a normal student. Overseas , they do not care how you performed in secondary school , they want to know how you performed in your basic degree , the skills and the work experience you have . Screw the scholarship I had from university - yes a foreign university gave me a scholarship for being the top 2 international students in the cohort but being in normal ( some even ask for your freaking PSLE results last time) crap my chances to pieces when I tried to apply for another scholarship in Singapore. I was literally LAUGHED at by a former employer for even bothering to try.
I can only say ....overseas gave me opportunities I never dreamt of and yet I earnt them by merit. It is really funny because I see the next generation of Singaporean normal stream school kids getting screwed over by this system and your late bloomers will have to consider running out to get opportunities denied by a no second chances society.
Why a need for a 2nd chance? everybody is given the same chances in our society you FUC K up its ur fault not the person beside you.Why should the rest lose out just to cater to you. Even though i do not believe in this idea of a 2nd chance though i wish i had a few, the government is giving this 2nd chance to the students by placing them in Na allowing them to climb back to express. It sucks that your employer laughs at you but hey you are not the only applicant why would they choose you if someone else has a better track record? Subsequently there are student from Em2 who do end up in Na does it mean that they have been condemned before? In essense whether u are looked down upon or not is entirely your fault and as such u have to pay the price
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Originally posted by eagle:
The attitude has been shaped from a young age. The teachers themselves think that these are gone case students, and this mindset will slowly shift itself from the teachers to the students. Streaming at a young age will stream their mindset along the down path; it's very hard to break away because you will not be given a 2nd chance (especially those who were streamed into EM3 in pri sch; their PSLE grade can never meet express standards in the better schools, even if they score full marks). By condemning them so early, even if they are late bloomers, they need extra effort to just meet the minimum requirements of the "better" streams.
Of course there are many exceptions. I have taught a sec 5 student before. It was a big jump from N to O level for him, but his work attitude was especially commendable. Although I charge by 2 hrs per lessons, it's students like this that I will go the extra mile at times, and reach till 2.5 hrs per lesson (fyi, I stop exactly at 2 hrs usually; dun need much time to think of answers for maths and physics). But imagine... one year was wasted even though he could still score very well for Os.
Have you considered that if he did not have that extra year he might nt be doing as well. Most Na are slower in terms of attaining skills that they are not particularly good at.Eg. good at english but horrible in maths. As for what u said above u cannot change what happens to you but u can change how u react to it. If life gives u a lemon make lemonade. easier said den done but hey this is life.
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Originally posted by augustkyle:
Just my personal view on the 5 years normal acad and the 4 years express in our education system in Singapore.
To start off, i was from Normal Academic.
I hope this post wont offend anyone.
I think if given a choice, i would rather not have PSLE in primary 6 to differentiate us in terms of academic capability. I believe i am one who suffered from that.
First of all, during my time, Express student take 7 subjects while the NA took 6 subjects despite having to study for 5years. It doesnt make sense right?
If to choose, for an express student to drop any subject they dislike, they still have 6 to study for the exam. Let say, one of the 6 flop, at least they still get to have 5 good result to enter poly. N(A) student, studies 6, hate 1 of those, and fail 1 of the rest. They have to repeat.
In short, i believe in late-bloomers. I have to tell myself this and believe in this.
You cannot possibly expect the government cater to your late bloomers can you?How many of this Na students actually are late bloomers? how many subjects Na students get to do depends on the school. But if the school gives them that many subject to do is because they are unable to perform. this is because they are given sec1 and sec 2 to climb over to express fail to do so and what does it show about you? I had a senior who climbed over from NT to express and is now in uni. The system works because it is brutal and tough. The bottomline is that it is meant to propel singapore further, we are the government's and country's resources to exploit , only digits and number. I am saying this because i am still currently in the education system and though i resent it everyday and i will still say that is effective in everysense of the word. Feelings and everything else is secondary to getting results now and fast no time to wait. Singapore's policy of pragmatism