Should prisoners have a record?
-
Originally posted by crimsontactics:
I'm glad you feel this way. I admit I'm a little rude back then and am sorry for it.
To a certain extend, what you say makes sense. However, an electrician will have to make his way into a person's house to change his lights. There will be time when the owner is out and theres only perhaps your teenage daughter or your maid to "jaga" the house while he work. i think you can picture the scenario. What makes you 100% sure that he won't recommit his crime?
how abt we castrate rapist? so they wil not be sterotyped
-
ok.... so basically, it is the responsibility of the rapist to ensure that he don't become a teacher.
Or a guy who embezzled money's responsibility to make sure he don't handle money.
-
Originally posted by skythewood:
ok.... so basically, it is the responsibility of the rapist to ensure that he don't become a teacher.
Or a guy who embezzled money's responsibility to make sure he don't handle money.
they can do it again
and pay the price
-
Originally posted by NG QIBO AARON AUBREY:
how abt we castrate rapist? so they wil not be sterotyped
Nah. If not those wifes will sabo their husbands' little brother.
-
Originally posted by oldbreadstinks:
actually i was thinking more along the lines of "employer decides whether the person in question is disqualified" if a bank still wants to hire someone known for fraud they had better come up with a very good explaination. though extremely unlikely i'm willing to accept that choice if convinced by a very very good good reason.
at least for me the record's for me to judge whether the guy's trustworthy, if he ended up being unable to work as a waiter, i really do not think its the fault of the restaurant or the police records. it is the guy's fault in the first place for getting the record.
not to mention if the restaurant do discrimate and found out much later he commited fraud before due to a lack of police records the backlash might be worse.
while open to giving a second chance, i honestly feel its up to the person involve to fight to convince us its worth it rather than giving it to them straight away. i honestly cannot accept allowing people to pretend they've never commited a crime and hope no one digs it up and life goes on happily ever after.
when you're talking about human society in general, we're not god, there's no jesus dying for you and as long as you repent you go to heaven forgiven of all sins. maybe for a small number of us there is but not for most of us.
OBS, we have no point of disagreement here. If a company insists on hiring the guy for a financial role despite his being a disqualified person, they've got nobody to blame but themselves if he takes off with a stack of hundreds.
On the other hand, if you keep the guy out of non-finance-related work and drive him to bankruptcy, well, you're to blame if he turns to crime to just get by.
If you're placed in a system where a criminal record follows you around, and you're treated like a rapist when you were only convicted for being a pathological litterbug, would you not lie just to avoid the hassle?
Fair's fair. Do the crime, do the time and stay out of what got you in trouble in the first place. A system geared toward these ends would be fair. A system that makes you out to be a rapist when you only dropped a few cigarette butts too many on the street is unfair.
-
people get blacklisted for littering?
how would you classified violence crime, theft or robbery? not suitable for which profession?
-
Originally posted by crimsontactics:
I'm glad you feel this way. I admit I'm a little rude back then and am sorry for it.
To a certain extend, what you say makes sense. However, an electrician will have to make his way into a person's house to change his lights. There will be time when the owner is out and theres only perhaps your teenage daughter or your maid to "jaga" the house while he work. i think you can picture the scenario. What makes you 100% sure that he won't recommit his crime?
Cheers, mate - we're good.
Well, your electrician scenario would apply in any case, wouldn't it? Would you ask for any electrician's police record if he came to your house to fix the lights? What if he was in fact a rapist but hadn't been caught yet? If we go down this track, we'll find ourselves getting into a series of imponderables that'll keep us awake at night.
Where high-risk situations can be identified and prevented, hey, go for it. Where they can't, you either take some basic precautions and leave it at that, or drive yourself crazy covering every possible contingency real or imagined.
-
Originally posted by NG QIBO AARON AUBREY:
this is sterotype
he was a rapist but he turned over a new leaf and likes children.
so he should have the chance to be that
yeah right, i'm not the most experienced person here and i can tell you its unlikely for a leopard to change its spots.
-
Originally posted by oldbreadstinks:
yeah right, i'm not the most experienced person here and i can tell you its unlikely for a leopard to change its spots.
you reallie stink. you better pray that you dun make any mistake in your life.
no one will forgive you
-
Originally posted by skythewood:
ok.... so basically, it is the responsibility of the rapist to ensure that he don't become a teacher.
Or a guy who embezzled money's responsibility to make sure he don't handle money.
No, no, no.
It's the responsibility of the justice/prison/police system to do so, but it's equally their responsibility to ensure that they don't go overboard.
-
Originally posted by Gedanken:
No, no, no.
It's the responsibility of the justice/prison/police system to do so, but it's equally their responsibility to ensure that they don't go overboard.
so.... it is the responsibility of the government to inform the companies that someone committed crimes of that specific nature when enquired?
-
Originally posted by skythewood:
so.... it is the responsibility of the government to inform the companies that someone committed crimes of that specific nature when enquired?
Yes, and then some.
For example, let's take a kindergarten. It is the Ministry of Education's responsibility to set the rules such that kindergartens (and all schools) must check that they are not hiring sex offenders, penalties for not doing so being their deregistration as a kindergarten.
It is then the school's responsibility to refer to the list of "do not put anywhere near kids", presumably compiled and maintained by the Ministry of Home Affairs, to ensure that job applicants are not on that list.
It is the Ministry of Home Affairs' responsibility to ensure that the list is easily accessible and up to date.
I'm sure that there are other responsibilities to be covered, but these are the key ones, it's 2.40 am here and I'm off to bed.
-
Originally posted by Gedanken:
Yes, and then some.
For example, let's take a kindergarten. It is the Ministry of Education's responsibility to set the rules such that kindergartens (and all schools) must check that they are not hiring sex offenders, penalties for not doing so being their deregistration as a kindergarten.
It is then the school's responsibility to refer to the list of "do not put anywhere near kids", presumably compiled and maintained by the Ministry of Home Affairs, to ensure that job applicants are not on that list.
It is the Ministry of Home Affairs' responsibility to ensure that the list is easily accessible and up to date.
I'm sure that there are other responsibilities to be covered, but these are the key ones, it's 2.40 am here and I'm off to bed.
sounds like some dude did the crime and people is paying for it with tax money.
don't think any country have such a system.
-
Originally posted by Gedanken:
OBS, we have no point of disagreement here. If a company insists on hiring the guy for a financial role despite his being a disqualified person, they've got nobody to blame but themselves if he takes off with a stack of hundreds.
On the other hand, if you keep the guy out of non-finance-related work and drive him to bankruptcy, well, you're to blame if he turns to crime to just get by.
If you're placed in a system where a criminal record follows you around, and you're treated like a rapist when you were only convicted for being a pathological litterbug, would you not lie just to avoid the hassle?
Fair's fair. Do the crime, do the time and stay out of what got you in trouble in the first place. A system geared toward these ends would be fair. A system that makes you out to be a rapist when you only dropped a few cigarette butts too many on the street is unfair.
don't know about you but pathological litterbugs need help, not jail. i believe in jail records but not jailing for everything.
in the light of what happened in the states i would rather keep guys like those out of any type of work that would affect the same amount of people. who knows maybe a life of crime would affect less people.
i don't believe jail to be the final punishment of one's crimes, social stigma would be a better one. i know some of you here think forgiveness comes after punishment(jail) one shouldn't be punished further after what's given by the state, but thats not the way with everyone. i feel you can ask for forgiveness but to expect it to be given after causing hurt? if jail can solve the problem as the final punishment should the victims be allowed to choose what the jail sentance is provided they're willing to forgive the culprit?
-
Originally posted by skythewood:
sounds like some dude did the crime and people is paying for it with tax money.
... and the prisons are being funded by .... ?
Originally posted by skythewood:don't think any country have such a system.
Many countries already have disqualified persons and sex offender lists. Lawyers can be disbarred, doctors can be stricken off the medical register. Need I go on? -
social stigma...BAH! whether got record or no record...it's always there!
...against the poor...against the underpriviledged...against funny looking people with handicap...against race...against whatever!
jus like those stupid serangoon rich who think they r one class above the very foreign workers who are helping to build the very infrastucture we live on!
BAH! all blardy humans who wants to play GOD!
-
they have the list on top of the criminal record list? or they have no criminal record, and just the list?
How much money you want to spend on the prison system?
-
Originally posted by oldbreadstinks:
don't know about you but pathological litterbugs need help, not jail. i believe in jail records but not jailing for everything.
in the light of what happened in the states i would rather keep guys like those out of any type of work that would affect the same amount of people. who knows maybe a life of crime would affect less people.
i don't believe jail to be the final punishment of one's crimes, social stigma would be a better one. i know some of you here think forgiveness comes after punishment(jail) one shouldn't be punished further after what's given by the state, but thats not the way with everyone. i feel you can ask for forgiveness but to expect it to be given after causing hurt? if jail can solve the problem as the final punishment should the victims be allowed to choose what the jail sentance is provided they're willing to forgive the culprit?
Hey, people can choose not to forgive the guy - if I was the aggrieved, I'd find forgiveness a tall order too.
That, on the other hand, does not justify taking the law into by own hands and meting out any more punishment than what the mechanisms of society have already deemed fit.
-
Originally posted by NG QIBO AARON AUBREY:
you reallie stink. you better pray that you dun make any mistake in your life.
no one will forgive you
that would be unlikely considering how many mistakes i've already made.
to be honest i rarely care about forgiveness, people talk about forgiveness all the time but given the opportunity would always be willing to dig up the past given the chance. who truly forgives?
-
Originally posted by skythewood:
they have the list on top of the criminal record list? or they have no criminal record, and just the list?
How much money you want to spend on the prison system?
They have a criminal record, accessible upon legitimate request (e.g. applications for sensitive roles where an absolutely clean record is deemed a necessity). For applications where specific kinds of crimes need to be checked for, they have the other lists.
As for the other part, how much do YOU want to spend on driving people back to prison, feeding, clothing and housing them?
-
Originally posted by oldbreadstinks:
given the opportunity would always be willing to dig up the past given the chance
Precisely what I'm advocating against. Dig it up if you NEED to, but not just for the hell of it.
-
Originally posted by Gedanken:
They have a criminal record, accessible upon legitimate request (e.g. applications for military roles). For applications where specific kinds of crimes need to be checked for, they have the other lists.
As for the other part, how much do YOU want to spend on driving people back to prison, feeding, clothing and housing them?
let's say a guy is convicted of robbery. he comes out, get a job, and the company who employed him will have no idea?
for prison, spend minimum, so make sure that people won't like it there. identifying people who went to jail, is fair to everyone. especially the employers who employ the ex-cons, so they will keep an eye on them.and make sure they don't do stupid stuff again.
People make choices. THEY are the one who make the choice to go to prison or not.
-
Originally posted by Gedanken:
... and the prisons are being funded by .... ?
Many countries already have disqualified persons and sex offender lists. Lawyers can be disbarred, doctors can be stricken off the medical register. Need I go on?but does that mean most sensitive occupations would have to register with govt boards?
-
Originally posted by skythewood:
let's say a guy is convicted of robbery. he comes out, get a job, and the company who employed him will have no idea?
for prison, spend minimum, so make sure that people won't like it there. identifying people who went to jail, is fair to everyone. especially the employers who employ the ex-cons, so they will keep an eye on them.and make sure they don't do stupid stuff again.
People make choices. THEY are the one who make the choice to go to prison or not.
identifying people who went to jail? do you mean only when they need to enter sensitive areas or apply for certain jobs or just plain "all prisoners must dress like ronald macdonalds" type of identifying?
-
Originally posted by Gedanken:
Quit ducking. You're the one who claimed that longer sentences are a deterrent. Now back it up, if you'll please, or concede that your proposal has no basis.
Oh no, take it easy, old man. If you're looking for someone who would be willing to spend hours researching for data and statistics for a casual debate, I'll give it a miss. Maybe I'll reconsider this if there is a $1,000 reward for winning this debate with you.
By the way, a few notes for your last reply to me:
1. My original argument is about increasing the jail term for ex-offenders as a form of deterrence, so I don't really see how two articles discussing about the chances of an offender becoming a recedivist AFTER an increased jail term has been served relate to the argument.
2. "longer prison sentences had a 7% higher chance of producing repeat offenders"
You can't directly correlate longer prison sentences to recidivism. It's no better than saying that, noting the longer prison sentences, those who commit a felony are more likely to be repeat offenders as compared to those who commit a misdemeanor.3. Even if longer prison sentences did result in an increase of the offenders' chances of being recidivous, I would like to point out that they also spend more time in prison, hence their chances of committing a crime in the society is also reduced. But no, I'm not advocating that they should stay in there longer. In fact, personally, I'm more in favour of plans to re-educate and prepare them to integrate back into and contribute to the society as soon as they're ready to. What I'm standing for here is the enhancement of jail term to deter ex-offenders from becoming repeat offenders.