belief in god VS athiest
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THE BIBLE
(2,000–3,000 years ago)SCIENCE THENSCIENCE NOWThe earth is a sphere (Isaiah 40:22). The earth was a flat disk. The earth is a sphere.
Innumerable stars (Jeremiah 33:22). Only 1,100 stars. Innumerable stars.
Free float of earth in space (Job 26:7). Earth sat on a large animal. Free float of earth in space.
Creation made of invisible elements (Hebrews11:3). Science was ignorant on the subject. Creation made of invisible elements (atoms).
Each star is different (1 Corinthians 15:41). All stars were the same. Each star is different.
Light moves (Job 38:19,20). Light was fixed in place. Light moves.
Air has weight (Job 28:25). Air was weightless. Air has weight.
Winds blow in cyclones (Ecclesiastes 1:6). Winds blew straight. Winds blow in cyclones.
Blood is the source of life and health (Leviticus 17:11). Sick people must be bled. Blood is the source of life and health.
Ocean floor contains deep valleys and mountains (2 Samuel 22:16; Jonah 2:6). The ocean floor was flat. Ocean floor contains deep valleys and mountains.
Ocean contains springs (Job 38:16). Ocean fed only by rivers and rain. Ocean contains springs.
When dealing with disease, hands should be washed under running water (Leviticus 15:13). Hands washed in still water. When dealing with disease, hands should be washed under running water.
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xalkyrie, you're amazing!!! How did you get all these?
Woah! LOL ~ glory to the King!
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Originally posted by xalkyrie:THE BIBLE
(2,000–3,000 years ago)SCIENCE THENSCIENCE NOWThe earth is a sphere (Isaiah 40:22). The earth was a flat disk. The earth is a sphere.
Innumerable stars (Jeremiah 33:22). Only 1,100 stars. Innumerable stars.
Free float of earth in space (Job 26:7). Earth sat on a large animal. Free float of earth in space.
Creation made of invisible elements (Hebrews11:3). Science was ignorant on the subject. Creation made of invisible elements (atoms).
Each star is different (1 Corinthians 15:41). All stars were the same. Each star is different.
Light moves (Job 38:19,20). Light was fixed in place. Light moves.
Air has weight (Job 28:25). Air was weightless. Air has weight.
Winds blow in cyclones (Ecclesiastes 1:6). Winds blew straight. Winds blow in cyclones.
Blood is the source of life and health (Leviticus 17:11). Sick people must be bled. Blood is the source of life and health.
Ocean floor contains deep valleys and mountains (2 Samuel 22:16; Jonah 2:6). The ocean floor was flat. Ocean floor contains deep valleys and mountains.
Ocean contains springs (Job 38:16). Ocean fed only by rivers and rain. Ocean contains springs.
When dealing with disease, hands should be washed under running water (Leviticus 15:13). Hands washed in still water. When dealing with disease, hands should be washed under running water.
You should always state the source of your facts and figures. For example, which version/edition of the bible are you using? For discussion sake, I will use the New American Standard Bible at http://biblebrowser.com
To save time, I will just discuss Isaiah 40:22, Job 38:19 and Leviticus 15:13. Please feel free to let me know if you would like to discuss the other points.
1) http://biblebrowser.com/isaiah/40-22.htm
Quote: "It is He who sits above the circle of the earth, And its inhabitants are like grasshoppers, Who stretches out the heavens like a curtain And spreads them out like a tent to dwell in."
- The New American Standard Bible uses "circle" instead of "sphere". The heavens is also not a curtain with stars painted on it. If the earth is a sphere suspended in space, why is heaven described as a curtain? Earth is more accurately described as a round rock surrounded by many innumerable stars.
2) http://biblebrowser.com/job/38-19.htm
Quote: "Where is the way to the dwelling of light? And darkness, where is its place, ..."
Asking about the source of light and darkness is very different from asserting that light moves. I can say that the light comes from the candle, but it does not mean that I am saying that light moves.
3) http://biblebrowser.com/leviticus/15-13.htm
Quote: "Now when the man with the discharge becomes cleansed from his discharge, then he shall count off for himself seven days for his cleansing; he shall then wash his clothes and bathe his body in running water and will become clean."
- From the explanation on the same url, this chapter is talking about ceremonial uncleannesses contracted either by bodily disease like that of the leper, or some natural incidents (like seminal emission and menstrual discharge).
I refer to you to the following passage... "When he was cured of the disease, yet he could not be cleansed from the pollution without a sacrifice, for which he was to prepare himself by seven days' expectation after he was perfectly clear from his distemper, and by bathing in spring water." So the running water is actually spring water (how many sources of running water does the people 2000 to 3000 yrs ago have, correct?). Incorrect use of spring water can cause more problems for some medical conditions like diabetes, and imagine people with infectious disease sharing the same water.
If the Bible provides the cure to diseases and is wriiten before the 14th century, how did almost half the population of Medieval Europe died during Black Death pandemic? Flu is the most virulant disease in history. Did the Bible prescribe anything for infectious diseases (like the Mexico flu) like covering the mouth with a piece of cloth?
Side Note:
http://biblebrowser.com/job/26-7.htm
Quote: "“He stretches out the north over empty space And hangs the earth on nothing."
This is the more interesting one. Tell me why you think the earth hangs on nothing, and I'll explain why I think it is not.
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A note about SCIENCE THEN and SCIENCE NOW. What are your sources? Have you heard of Biblical Science and Modern Science? Biblical Science was perpertuated by the Church (E.g go to http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Copernicus, and search for "March 1616, in connection with the Galileo affair, the Roman Catholic Church's Congregation of the Index issued a decree suspending De revolutionibus until it could be "corrected,".... )
Modern science does not claim to be all-knowing and is constantly improving. Does the Bible's content change over time? If the Bible's content did not change, how did Christians understanding of the physical world improved from Copernicus' and Galileo's time?
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Originally posted by kilfer:
xalkyrie copy and paste from somewhere, like most Christians.to add, typically heavily edited, misquoted, of unknown origin, and to delude oneself and possibly everyone around him/her
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Originally posted by bhkw:
which to believe?
last good friday i attended a friends cell group meeting... and i was asked the "golden" question .. Do you believe?
i said i had to think about it ..
but i'm still thinking about it now ..
i've been an athiest my whole life ... big bang, evoloution
and then suddenly i've been asked to believe ..(not that i'm not expecting it ..)
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but it's the way people asks you to believe ..
look at the links http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=urlTBBKTO68 | http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bkhQLt1vbWU | http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qO9IPoAdct8
they make it sound as if they have been forced to believe ..
i'm contemplating weather i should bellieve or not but they way they are promoting it makes me feel very obligated ..
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from a chirstiant's view point , can you pls tell me how you feel about those videos and if all christiants feel the same ..
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i'm in a very confused state now so those of you who want to BullShit, Pls, PLS go another topic ... tyvm
Why do you hold fear in telling them the truth?If you don't believe then tell them you don't believe.
Is it really that difficult for you to live your life as yourself?
If you had already surrendered the control of your lives over to FEAR, then I suggest you go and reclaim it back and be who you really are.
Clones can never win Originals you know...
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Originally posted by xalkyrie:THE BIBLE
(2,000–3,000 years ago)SCIENCE THENSCIENCE NOWThe earth is a sphere (Isaiah 40:22). The earth was a flat disk. The earth is a sphere.
Innumerable stars (Jeremiah 33:22). Only 1,100 stars. Innumerable stars.
Free float of earth in space (Job 26:7). Earth sat on a large animal. Free float of earth in space.
Creation made of invisible elements (Hebrews11:3). Science was ignorant on the subject. Creation made of invisible elements (atoms).
Each star is different (1 Corinthians 15:41). All stars were the same. Each star is different.
Light moves (Job 38:19,20). Light was fixed in place. Light moves.
Air has weight (Job 28:25). Air was weightless. Air has weight.
Winds blow in cyclones (Ecclesiastes 1:6). Winds blew straight. Winds blow in cyclones.
Blood is the source of life and health (Leviticus 17:11). Sick people must be bled. Blood is the source of life and health.
Ocean floor contains deep valleys and mountains (2 Samuel 22:16; Jonah 2:6). The ocean floor was flat. Ocean floor contains deep valleys and mountains.
Ocean contains springs (Job 38:16). Ocean fed only by rivers and rain. Ocean contains springs.
When dealing with disease, hands should be washed under running water (Leviticus 15:13). Hands washed in still water. When dealing with disease, hands should be washed under running water.
Isaiah 40:22 (New International Version)
22 He sits enthroned above the circle of the earth,
and its people are like grasshoppers.
He stretches out the heavens like a canopy,
and spreads them out like a tent to live in.King James Bible
It is he that sitteth upon the circle of the earth, and the inhabitants thereof are as grasshoppers; that stretcheth out the heavens as a curtain, and spreadeth them out as a tent to dwell in:What is a circle?
A circle is a simple shape of Euclidean geometry consisting of those points in a plane
What is a " plane "?
In mathematics, a plane is a flat surface.
Don't be a delusional.
If God exists (?) and created the earth (?) and the bible is word of God's (?) this proves once and for all that the bible is NOT word of god (without going into the existence of god and the creation of the earth.)
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Science is not dogmatic and when new evidence surfaces, science will go with the new evidence and discard the old.
Ancient people (the view introduced around the 4th century BC by natural philosophers of Classical Greece that the Earth is spherical) believed that the earth is flat.... science never did because "science" was not invented (scientific philosophy was not invented) until a few hundred years ago.
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Science = believe in something only when there's evidence. Science do not make claims with absolute certainty and admit that we can only know what we can possibly know with the current information (evidence) that we have, and even so, the current theories are allowed to change in the face of evidence.
Religion in contrary requires faith, due to the very absence of evidence. It plays in important role in society to satisfy people's emotional needs and fear of death. And delude otherwise bad people into behaving out of fear of being tortured in hell, for example.
Many Scientists believe in a certain kind of God, although the naming of "God" is quite superfluous. It is the "God" which Stephen Hawkings or Einstein frequent refer to. The Non-personal Indifferent Naturalistic Pantheist God, which is simply the renaming the universe and its natural laws and everything that exist (including us) as "god".
For any other more complex versions of gods of the various existing religions with their particular personalities, a believe in such extraordinary things would require extraordinary evidence to support it. Otherwise, it's only delusion -- but as I've said previously, such delusion might be a useful thing to some (especially those trying to get through difficult times).
There are others who'd prefer to face reality though. They hold the view that it is better to be honest with themselves with regards to any gods, or any other invisible undetectable beings, that "we simply don't know" and since there's no evidence for any particular possible-versions of gods out there, we should regard them all as highly improbably until we've personally experienced such evidence -- just like we treat any other extraordinary claims that might affect our lifes.
Many Atheists do not claim they are absolutely certain that any type of possible-gods which do not defy logic and which defination of them contain contradictions do not exist. They simply hold the stance that for anything that's completely undetectable, and have no solid justisfiable compelling scientific evidence, the probability for things such as "gods" to exist is so negligible that we should not concern our lives with it. -
THE BIBLE
(2,000–3,000 years ago)SCIENCE THENSCIENCE NOWWat is science to u ? DO u know tat scientific method started only at the late 19th century ? So your red catogory is actually just comparing between religion, philosophy and science and most people treat the green category as the right answer to the above.
I think u should also note tat if u wanna look at the bible, it tell obvious lies such as world is created in 7 days or Noah's ark carrying a pair of all the animal in the world. If u wanna look at closely as your few selected lines, maybe u will like to read closely the bulk of the pasages or books instead.
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"Nothing happens in contrary to nature, only our understanding of it."
Science is the study of what nature is, sciene or its laws did not create nature.
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Originally posted by SomebodyInSG:
"Nothing happens in contrary to nature, only our understanding of it."
Science is the study of what nature is, sciene or its laws did not create nature.
Nobody said Science created nature.We're just comparing Science's understanding of nature with God's word on his creations. That's all.
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so u r saying god created us as apes then we slowly evolved
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Originally posted by Aang:
so u r saying god created us as apes then we slowly evolved
hmm.. is this question directed at me? -
Next time when it rains, think why god is crying.
You can argue all you want, if u have not seen a god, its merely blind faith, delusions. Every religion has got its own miracles, so in the end, who is correct? Or could it be that everyone is wrong? How can you believe looking in the sky and chanting can actually help you? Is it not ridiculous? So far all the "answered" prayers i heard of is actually one's own accomplishment but "god" gets the credit. Miracle healings? Its the power of suggestion like hypnotism.
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Originally posted by xalkyrie:THE BIBLE
(2,000–3,000 years ago)SCIENCE THENSCIENCE NOWThe earth is a sphere (Isaiah 40:22). The earth was a flat disk. The earth is a sphere.
Innumerable stars (Jeremiah 33:22). Only 1,100 stars. Innumerable stars.
Free float of earth in space (Job 26:7). Earth sat on a large animal. Free float of earth in space.
Creation made of invisible elements (Hebrews11:3). Science was ignorant on the subject. Creation made of invisible elements (atoms).
Each star is different (1 Corinthians 15:41). All stars were the same. Each star is different.
Light moves (Job 38:19,20). Light was fixed in place. Light moves.
Air has weight (Job 28:25). Air was weightless. Air has weight.
Winds blow in cyclones (Ecclesiastes 1:6). Winds blew straight. Winds blow in cyclones.
Blood is the source of life and health (Leviticus 17:11). Sick people must be bled. Blood is the source of life and health.
Ocean floor contains deep valleys and mountains (2 Samuel 22:16; Jonah 2:6). The ocean floor was flat. Ocean floor contains deep valleys and mountains.
Ocean contains springs (Job 38:16). Ocean fed only by rivers and rain. Ocean contains springs.
When dealing with disease, hands should be washed under running water (Leviticus 15:13). Hands washed in still water. When dealing with disease, hands should be washed under running water.
Science then and now..
You need a sperm to inseminate an egg to create a baby.
Virgins can't suddenly give birth.
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lol, X files... Do you believe?
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This link says the Christian God is Chinese.
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Originally posted by liang po po:
This link says the Christian God is Chinese.
Wow history repeats itself.
Here's a little lesson for you guys.
Taiping rebellion leader in China was a man who believed himself to be Jesus long lost sworn brother rofl.
Even further back. In the 1500s, a man named Foxe wrote in Britain propaganda materials to aid our British reformation to distance ourselves from the evil catholic church. Anyway, Foxe implied in his writings that God is English, and that to be English is to be priviledged and have a "special" relationship with the Christian god, compared to the Spanish or the other catholics. This helped build a sort of weird nationalistic pride in England, and led us to easily see ourselves as superior when we stole and conquered, heck, even in the anthem, we ask "our god to rise and scatter our enemies" in a reference to the harsh seas scattering the spanish armada. That was before Britain rose as a world power.
So if the Chinese from China are doing the same, it really makes it very interesting haha. -
For those who try to pit science against religion, pls revisit that assertion, those 2 don't have to be on different camps.
say u discovered hydrogen and u discovered oxygen. Going deeper, you discovered putting 2 x hydrogen with 1 x oxygen gives u water... hooray! now, who says God created the ocean? It was 2 hydrogen and an oxygen tat did it.
u got more confident and at the same time more curious, n u start asking, wait a min, why has it got to be H2O1 .. why not O2H1?
Tis is the point where u can potentially become crazy.
For those who have remained sane, they are the ones who know when to stop and concede that there is a higher being up there who devised that H2O and every other equation at point of creation.
And this was how Einstein remained sane :
In developing the theory of relativity, Einstein realized that the equations led to the conclusion that the universe had a beginning. He didn't like the idea of a beginning, because he thought one would have to conclude that the universe was created by God. So, he added a cosmological constant to the equation to attempt to get rid of the beginning. He said this was one of the worst mistakes of his life. Of course, the results of Edwin Hubble confirmed that the universe was expanding and had a beginning at some point in the past. So, Einstein became a deist - a believer in an impersonal creator God:
"I believe in Spinoza's God who reveals himself in the orderly harmony of what exists, not in a God who concerns himself with fates and actions of human beings."
"In view of such harmony in the cosmos which I, with my limited human mind, am able to recognize, there are yet people who say there is no God. But what really makes me angry is that they quote me for the support of such views."
"I'm not an atheist and I don't think I can call myself a pantheist. We are in the position of a little child entering a huge library filled with books in many languages. The child knows someone must have written those books. It does not know how. It does not understand the languages in which they are written. The child dimly suspects a mysterious order in the arrangements of the books, but doesn't know what it is. That, it seems to me, is the attitude of even the most intelligent human being toward God."
And I wonder how the self-professed 'scientists' made the decision to marry the person they did ... hope they didn't send some cells to the lab and call for DNA compatibility testing.
Well, I made mine on what I call Love .. which i doubt you'll believe in either as it's not empirically testable
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For those who try to pit science against religion, pls revisit that assertion, those 2 don't have to be on different camps.
say u discovered hydrogen and u discovered oxygen. Going deeper, you discovered putting 2 x hydrogen with 1 x oxygen gives u water... hooray! now, who says God created the ocean? It was 2 hydrogen and an oxygen tat did it.
Frankly speaking, I think u fail to realise the whole argument about science and religion. No one is talking about who created H2O and saying it had nothing to do with god. U r right tat these 2 can be mutually exclusive events. People however r talking about issues such as
evolution of man
Old earth tat lasts for billions of years instead of thousands
earth revolves around sun and not vice versa
and so forth
In religious texts, they explicitly mentions all being r created specifically with days and man is specially created with dust etc. Science states tat being r created by billions of years and they evolved into such diversity. Tat causes the conflict.
Another conflict is the bible states tat the world is only thousand of years. Science states tat the earth is billions of years and human had thrived for millions. Tis again show contradictions among both camps.
The way tat things go about is, people began not to believe in science simply because they contradict with religion (such as evolution) of course another group of religious people believe in science, and twist the words of the scriptures to reflect the stand of science.
And tat is the whole issue about "religion" versus "science". Not about silly things such as H2O
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you are talking about Christianity (and its Bible) versus Science ... not Religion versus Science.
Noticed I did not mention any references on the bible or Christianity. I used the word God the way Einstein uses it.
The fact that I believe in a Higher Being (aka God), makes me not an atheist and definitely not a subscriber to some notions stated in previous posts that ALL our decisions should be rational ly and logically supported by observable sciences
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you are talking about Christianity (and its Bible) versus Science ... not Religion versus Science
I do not know wat u r correcting me for but the old testaments is shared by the jews, christians, catholic and muslims.
And if u talk about einstein, he also states the followings words
My position concerning God is that of an agnostic. I am convinced that a vivid consciousness of the primary importance of moral principles for the betterment and ennoblement of life does not need the idea of a law-giver, especially a law-giver who works on the basis of reward and punishment
It was, of course, a lie what you read about my religious convictions, a lie which is being systematically repeated. I do not believe in a personal god and I have never denied this but have expressed it clearly. If something is in me which can be called religious then it is the unbounded admiration for the structure of the world so far as our science can reveal it
The word God is for me nothing more than the expression and product of human weaknesses, the Bible a collection of honourable, but still primitive legends which are nevertheless pretty childish. No interpretation no matter how subtle can (for me) change this. These subtilised interpretations are highly manifold according to their nature and have almost nothing to do with the original text. For me the Jewish religion like all other religions is an incarnation of the most childish superstitions. And the Jewish people to whom I gladly belong and with whose mentality I have a deep affinity have no different quality for me than all other people. As far as my experience goes, they are also no better than other human groups, although they are protected from the worst cancers by a lack of power. Otherwise I cannot see anything 'chosen' about them
The fact that I believe in a Higher Being (aka God), makes me not an atheist and definitely not a subscriber to some notions stated in previous posts that ALL our decisions should be rational ly and logically supported by observable sciences
Of course anybody can choose to be irrational and illogical by making irrational and illoigcal decisions. No one is stopping u here
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What am I correcting you? I was trying to tell u a simple fact .. ie Christianity is not the ONLY religion one can belive in. Proving the Bible wrong does not add weight to the atheist camp.
You are too engrossed in Christinaity and the Bible and forgot the topic here .. we're talking about Belief systems and how religion and science plays a part in the formation.
Got it? -
My reply to the all time question is usually around the lines of "it doesn't matter whether I believe, or not, in a God" because I honestly believe that it doesn't.
The underlying motif (not that people actually follow it though) of religion (once you delete all the man-made crap) is respect, tolerance, understanding, care, etc etc etc...
Whether someone irrefutably proves that there is a God, or that there is no God. Does either option effect a person from being good? respectful? understanding? caring? etc, etc, etc..
Man, I can just picture people going "oh, there is no God? great... turning evil then!" seriously... like little kids and the whole 'if your good you'll get a lollipop', 'be bad and get a spanking'... *rolls eyes*.
The question isn't whether you believe in God or not (cause it really doesn't matter). Its whether you are true to your own beliefs, whatever they may be.