About Original sin
-
*sigHZzzZz*
------------------
One world
One love One mind
One soul One life
One peace One goal -
hi there, have you missed my post earlier?Originally posted by yidd:"Sin came into the world through one man, and death came through sin, and so death spread to ALL because ALL have sinned." (Romans 5:12)
"Therefore, as by the offense of one [Adam] judgment came upon ALL men to CONDEMNATION." (Romans 5:1
Your replies are very interesting, but again, I would like to know when the doctrine was first formulated because of 2 reasons:
1. Whether the Original Sin had been taught by Jesus himself, or came much later as a result of creeds passed by the Church several centuries after Christ was taken up into heaven.
2. Whether Jesus was aware of this Original Sin and strove to die on the cross for the sins of mankind.
Before Jesus was borned, The old testament speaks of two coming of the Messiah, the first coming to forgive sins and salvation, the second to establish God's kingdom on Earth.
So from here my earlier post started:
So if man has not fallen sinners in the first place, the 1st coming of Jesus is not neccessary and Jesus has already died in vain.
From what I found out, the Jews does not believe in Original sin. That's why they believe they do not need Jesus to die for them for their salvation and they wanted the Romans to crucify Jesus instead because they hated Him. The Jews wanted a Messiah who punish the Jew's enemies, NOT someone who heals the blind and mute, NOT someone who is willing to be crucified by the Romans (also the Jew's enemies) to die for them and forgive their sins.
Untill now they are still waiting for the return of their Messiah who will "punish" those who attack them. But this return of Messiah was also the 2nd coming of Jesus who is supposed to come back to stop countries who attack Israel during the final world war.
In short, the Jews wanted the 2nd coming of Jesus, and they rejected his 1st coming.
and I myself admit that I have sinned many times....
Hope i have answered your question...
[This message has been edited by Rapture (edited 18 March 2002).] -
Not again...? -_-`~Originally posted by yidd:Hi Seifer,
Answer these questions:
1. Do you think Original Sin applies to ALL humans? In short, is it universal?
2. Do Jews believe in Original Sin?
3. When was the doctrine of Original Sin first formulated?
4. Are infants subject to Original Sin? In short, if they die "unbaptized" (in whatever myriad forms this "cleansing" takes today), do they go to hell, heaven, or that medevial concept called limbo? -
My stand for now... I AGREE with ALMOST EVERYTHING you'd said in this POST... Except perhaps the concept of ORIGINAL SIN applied on babies... You mentioned that you think they have not 'activated' it yet... I think there's no such thing as activation... They're born with it.... Yeah yeah... And I know that alot of people (if they bother) would start to bombard me with the 'you mean you born with SIN without doing anything..?' Do you know what is ORIGINAL SIN...? I THINK I know..? Well.. Though I'm not certain that I'm having the CORRECT picture, but I think I'm beginning to figure the things out...?Originally posted by Seifer:I can only try my best to answer ur queries.
1. My personal belief is that Original Sin refers to man's sinful nature. As such, I believed that ALL humans have it.
2. No idea.
3. No idea. I can try to find out.
4. Like I have mentioned, my personal belief is that Original sin refers to the sinful nature. Therefore babies are bornt with this sinful nature. But they are born sinless, coz while they have this sinful nature, they have not 'activated' it yet. -
No need to wonder lah!! If GOD got HALF of anyone of our brains, you would be CONDEMNED!!! :pOriginally posted by Rapture:then I really wonder...how many people can really make it when compared to the law......... -
Hmm.... INTERESTING indeed..?Originally posted by Seifer:The following verse is also very interesting.
1 Peter 4:5,6 - But they will have to give account to him who is ready to judge the living and the dead. For this is the reason the gospel was preached even to those who are now dead, so that they might be judged according to men in regard to the body, but live according to God in regard to the spirit. -
Actually there is such a thing as activation. sinful nature does not equate to sin. It just means u have a tendency to sin.Originally posted by Devil1976:My stand for now... I AGREE with ALMOST EVERYTHING you'd said in this POST... Except perhaps the concept of ORIGINAL SIN applied on babies... You mentioned that you think they have not 'activated' it yet... I think there's no such thing as activation... They're born with it.... Yeah yeah... And I know that alot of people (if they bother) would start to bombard me with the 'you mean you born with SIN without doing anything..?' Do you know what is ORIGINAL SIN...? I THINK I know..? Well.. Though I'm not certain that I'm having the CORRECT picture, but I think I'm beginning to figure the things out...?
I can have a lot of $$$$. But as long as I resist the urge to spend the $$$, I cannot be branded a spendthrift just because I have $$$.
------------------
I can live with pain, but I cannot live without hope. -
......Originally posted by Seifer:You are right. Sin came into this world thru one man, and death is the result of sin. But HOW did sin come into this world? Because we all inherited the sinful nature of Adam. It is this sinful nature that causes us to sin. Therefore all who sinned will die.
Clearly in GAL: 5:24 - "Those who belong to Jesus Christ have crucified the sinful nature.....", it is clearly shown that salvation entails the crucification of our sinful nature.
2 Peter 2:10 - This is especially true of those who follow the corrupt desire of the sinful nature and despise authority. -
I think men was created without sin... But BORN with ORIGINAL SIN...?Originally posted by Seifer:There is another interesting verse
Ecc 7:29 - This only have I found: God made mankind upright, but men have gone in search of many schemes.
This verse clearly suggests that men was born without sin. Coz if they are, then they cannot be upright. -
I think if you're debating in that sense you've got your point? But in terms of ORIGINAL SIN, I personally believe it's a DIFFERENT issue? In summary, I put it as all people BORN have ORIGINAL SIN... It is this ORIGINAL SIN which give rise to a SINFUL NATURE in human (ability to sin)... NOT all people SIN (though I must think majority do..). If they don't, likelihood is they're not given enough time to express (or cultivate) that nature in a lifetime or is not given enough EXPOSURE for it to bloom...Originally posted by Seifer:Actually there is such a thing as activation. sinful nature does not equate to sin. It just means u have a tendency to sin.
I can have a lot of $$$$. But as long as I resist the urge to spend the $$$, I cannot be branded a spendthrift just because I have $$$.
...... What's WORSE? SIN or ORIGINAL SIN?
------------------
In LIGHT I shall FEAR NOT. FOR what I AM is CUT so DEEP inside of ME.
I LIVE my FLESH and SOUL ONLY to BLEED for the OTHERS.
FEAR ME NOT. FOR I AM YOUR 'MASTER'. GIVE YOU STRENGTH. FOR YOU ARE MY 'ENEMY'.
DEVIL PHRASE I
I have no 'friends' nor 'family'.
I hold no past and see not future...
These are just samples of illusions....
I don't exist, but I shall live ETERNITY..... DEVIL PHRASE II
Though NOT the RIGHT thing to do,
This might be the ONLY NATURAL thing to be...
Just like heat is produced when work done...
EVIL is the GENERATION of SYSTEM FLAWS... DEVIL PHRASE III
In DREAMS you CAN NEVER DIE.....
For YOUR LIFE is about the EXISTENCE of....
Your Happiness.... Your Sadness... Your Pain.... Your Pleasure....
Like a painted sky, when it rains... All CEASE to BE... DEVIL PHRASE IV
Through Chaos the Devil gain strength,
to face the lord, his Creator.
Through his questionings, he recovered his true existence...
Good & Evil, Can they co-exists in harmony? DEVIL PHRASE V
When Law & Rules are there,
they are NOT about JUSTICE.
While reality & dreams are there,
they are NOT about SURVIVAL..
And Life & Death NOT about LIVING...
Good & Evil NOT about definitions....
IF truly there is EVIL, it is NOT just one of its kind......
DEVIL'S SEVENTH PHRASE
ße COOL, NOT s¢rr¥.... -
do u ppl know there is something called private email?
------------------
~~Evi|Ger~~
more affectionately known as...
tHe eXtrA-oRdiNaRy eCCenTriC PaRanOid BiTch wiF thE PaiZaBor aTTiTudE
(who is a Prata-natic...and a loyal supporter of Quickly and Qoo~)
A hiaK~ is a sarcastic laugh
***It's a sin to be unobjective*** -
Hahahah....this is a public discussion mah. Everybody is welcome to join in.Originally posted by FireIce:do u ppl know there is something called private email?
------------------
I can live with pain, but I cannot live without hope. -
Do you know what PRIVATE means....? NO... I CANNOT give it to ANYONE... It's MY OWN... I applied it just for the SAKE of my OWN PRIVACY...? For fun? :pOriginally posted by FireIce:do u ppl know there is something called private email? -
actually the Bible says no one can fulfill the requirements of the law. Not even Abraham
Moreover the law was given after Abraham.Originally posted by Seifer:People like Abraham lor
-
i tot u were talking abt the movie oringinal sins by angelina jolie... i seen the vcd of it... wah macam pornographic sia... licking, sucking and etc... hahah
[This message has been edited by bigdeal (edited 19 March 2002).] -
hahahahahaha you're rite manz!
QUOTE]Originally posted by FireIce:
by starting this post, u are oredi trying to stir up "something"
dun need to put up excuse..
u see tt the forum is bery peaceful now and u cannot tahan, so mux make history repeat itself....
[/QUOTE]
------------------
I awake to see that no one is free,
We're all fugitives,
Look at the way with it.
Down here, I cannot sleep from fear no. -
SPICY but quite a boring show...? :pOriginally posted by bigdeal:i tot u were talking abt the movie oringinal sins by angelina jolie... i seen the vcd of it... wah macam pornographic sia... licking, sucking and etc... hahah
[This message has been edited by bigdeal (edited 19 March 2002).] -
yoi man, long time no see, how's life and work? How about pools next week.Originally posted by rubberduckie:actually the Bible says no one can fulfill the requirements of the law. Not even Abraham Moreover the law was given after Abraham.
See if you can get Rapture and Blur, i try to call rapture, but he didn't respond to that question at all, maybe frighten that i might slayed him with my lightsaber... ;}
------------------
He who knows others is wise;
He who know himself is enlightened. -
who call u see story line ?? fast forward >> can liao lor.. hahahah :pOriginally posted by Devil1976:SPICY but quite a boring show...? :p
------------------
Should I Tell Her?
Or Should I Let Her Go? -
I would love to But I will be posted to US for 2 months, will be flying next Tues. Have a string of meetings to do this week so probably cant. When I get back in June we can sure meet for pool! Get Rapture and Blur too! Originally posted by obiwan:yoi man, long time no see, how's life and work? How about pools next week.
See if you can get Rapture and Blur, i try to call rapture, but he didn't respond to that question at all, maybe frighten that i might slayed him with my lightsaber... ;} -
alright then, no prob at all... we will see...Originally posted by rubberduckie:I would love to But I will be posted to US for 2 months, will be flying next Tues. Have a string of meetings to do this week so probably cant. When I get back in June we can sure meet for pool! Get Rapture and Blur too! -
From what I can recall, St Augustine claimed that Original Sin was 'The Sin' Adam and Eve comitted after they ate the damn fruit. That's why he stressed the need for baptism to cleanse that sin away.
But, it is still a question of definition when it comes to the point whether or not this original sin is linked with our inherent nature. As we all know, the Bible is a very ambiguous ........ script. -
thks for the invite jedi knight. wud like to go but i work late most of the night.Originally posted by obiwan:yoi man, long time no see, how's life and work? How about pools next week.
See if you can get Rapture and Blur, i try to call rapture, but he didn't respond to that question at all, maybe frighten that i might slayed him with my lightsaber... ;}
thks again
------------------
yeah yeah yeah, boogie woogie spit it out at www.my77thstreet.com -
------------------Originally posted by blurblop:thks for the invite jedi knight. wud like to go but i work late most of the night.
thks again
no prob too, we will arrange next time.
He who knows others is wise;
He who know himself is enlightened. -
hiya all.. guess no one noes who i am seldom come in here.. for those who feel offensive to wat Seifer said... i would like 2 suggest this to seifer.. if u wish to tok abt this kind of issue or topic.. maybe u shld go irc n set up a channel n discuss abt it? it will be more approriate? I dunno if it's a good suggestion but i m just suggesting.. as what i noe there's always a bibkle study in irc channel #christian or #christians i guess.. check it out.. gd luck@ god bless!