gackt13's Point No. 1 says it all.
Originally posted by Stevenson101:
Considering that the Israeli has just killed a couple hundred of Palestinians, i don't think even Hamas would have the ability to get the grieving husbands and sons to not retaliate even if they wanted to.Why is it that we insist on looking on Hamas as a single group mind instead of a collection of individuals?
We say that it is Hamas that's firing the rockets because it is the media that says so. But are they actually interviewing the people firing the rockets or are they making speculations ?
But we do the same thing in SG. People equate SG Govt and PAP as single entity. PAP = Govt. I think people seldom seperate Govt branch with political branch PAP where policies or directions are concern.
We have to consider Hamas as the occupiers of Gaza. And is fully responsible and fully accountable. Just like the US as the occupiers of Iraq after the War. Or else we are creating a Herzbollah army inside Lebanon.
Is complex enough to try to bring palestine together from the different factions let alone micro Hamas.
Originally posted by freedomclub:
I know that Hamas was founded to destroy Israel. No one is denying that. Neither am I denying that Hamas' rockets have killed people. I can agree with everything you say, but cant you realise that Israel is killing more people than Hamas? The death toll already speaks for itself.
If Hamas had abandoned its ambition of destroying Israel, would there be any killings of any number of people ?
If Hamas had been able to exercise strategic wisdom and smarter tactics in their confrontation with Israel, would there be any large number of deaths on the Palestinian side compared to the Israelis ?
Sadly, Hamas had even admitted that they were surprised and had not expected such determined ferocity in Israeli response.
This clearly showed that Hamas was not prepared and had expected business to be as usual, where they can expect to continue firing rockets and missile into Israel at random and at their own choosing without any warnings.
Do you see the mental twisting which you engage in when you state that the 500+ Palestinians that have died are killed not by Israel, but by Hamas? Hamas provoked Israel to retaliate, yet it is Israel that is doing the actual killing. Because you, and many others are just siding with one group of terrorists, and overlooking the actions of the other group of terrorists is something I take issue with. Its like taking sides when the US invades Iraq. The US has a rich history of sponsoring terrorism to destabilise nationalistic governments in favour of corrupt dictators. Saddam is a US-propped dictator who has oppressed the Kurds. In cases like this, its a waste of time to side with either one because both are anti-human scum.
Osama bin Ladin might as well borrow your intellect in protesting that after the 9-11 World Trade Center destruction - USA's right to hunt down Al Qaeda and Osama should stop when 500+ Afghans have been killed.
Unfortunately, Hamas will not borrow your line of argument as their agenda is to win the psychological propaganda war over the Israelis - by causing as many Palestinian casualties as possible after each intentional attack towards Israel.
You said it so well in your statement - "Hamas provoked Israel to retaliate, yet it is Israel that is doing the actual killing".
Is Israel the only one guilty of the killing, or is Hamas not equally guilty for causing the casualties and deaths amongst the innocent Palestinians - by attacking Israel from densely populated areas of Palestinian residences, refugee camps and schools ?
By the way, I dont understand what you mean by "succumbing to propaganda" when propaganda just refers to an organised effort to promote a particular belief. Everything that we hear is propaganda. If you want to accuse me of lying or putting out misinformation, then say so.
Have you not succumbed to propaganda - which is "Hamas organised effort to promote a particular belief" - that Israelis are massacreing the Palestinians ?
Are you not regurgitating what is being repeated on behalf of Hamas - despite your declared efforts of being a neutral ?
I dont know why all the oil companies arent rushing to Gaza right now, when Israel is engaging in shock and awe. But would Israel ever let a Hamas-run government to control and benefit from the oil and natural gas? I dont think so. If you cant have it, no one can.
When Iraq and Iran was fighting the seven year war, French companies were in Iran exploring oil and gas.
When the USA was conducting its 'shock and awe' campaign during Dessert Storm I and II - oil companies were continuously pumping out crude in the region.
Is there any to be had, when all that exist is nothing more than hot gas ?
jojobeach,
Your argument is a cut and paste specimen of mine. It obvious you have swallowed what has been shoved down your throat by the American influenced media. Your assertation makes no sense that the actual killers of the Palestinians are not responsible for their crimes. I will attempt to educate you on the logic that the blame for the killed should be primarily directed to the killers: In this case, THE ZIONISTS.
So your feeble attempt at diverting the blame is not making any inroads into this debate.
Moreover, many independent sources notably the U.N humanitarian agency reporting from the warzone have accused Israel of intentionally attacking civilian infrastructures.
I would like to pose you a question: If you exhibit skeptism towards United Nations and Red Cross reports, does not it mean you advocate the Israeli aggresions and exhibit a sadistic lust at the loss of innocent lives?
Anyways, I am beginning to sense that either you are doubling up as googoomuck or you must be an idiot in arms with him.
Your blatant plagarism of my conclusion is reflective.
Originally posted by Jarhum:jojobeach,
Your argument is a cut and paste specimen of mine. It obvious you have swallowed what has been shoved down your throat by the American influenced media. Your assertation makes no sense that the actual killers of the Palestinians are not responsible for their crimes. I will attempt to educate you on the logic that the blame for the killed should be primarily directed to the killers: In this case, THE ZIONISTS.
So your feeble attempt at diverting the blame is not making any inroads into this debate.
Moreover, many independent sources notably the U.N humanitarian agency reporting from the warzone have accused Israel of intentionally attacking civilian infrastructures.
I would like to pose you a question: If you exhibit skeptism towards United Nations and Red Cross reports, does not it mean you advocate the Israeli aggresions and exhibit a sadistic lust at the loss of innocent lives?
Anyways, I am beginning to sense that either you are doubling up as googoomuck or you must be an idiot in arms with him.
Your blatant plagarism of my conclusion is reflective.
Jarhum,
I don't need American media to influence my thinkings, thank you.
Sorry to dissapoint you.. but HAMAS is just a bunch of cowards who care not the welfare of Gazans.
HAMAS has refused ceasefire to end this war.. now.. you tell me.. are they the idiot or people like me ?
War is not child play. HAMAS should have thought about this loss of innocent lives when they make the decision to shoot more rockets into Israel.
Instead of blaming the "Zionist".. I'd rather you start writing and rallying for HAMAS to stop their nonsense.
Atobe,
I would see to it that several of your claims are rebutted although I will agree to one.
If Hamas had abandoned its ambition of destroying Israel, would there be any killings of any number of people ?
Hamas and Israel are alike in so many ways. Israeli extremists and hardliners harbour the same thoughts of each other vis a vis Hamas. Killings occured even before the establishment of Hamas. Israel has been found guilty of numerous terrorist activities ever since 1948. I find the claim that the rationale behind the malicious killings of Palestinians is attributed to Hamas and the ones who does the actual killing is innocent and perceived to be the "oppressed", utterly ridiculous. This is contrary to the typical logical mind of any sane person. Moreover, the Israeli politicians have been planning for this since mid 2007. And the IDF southern command has been pressurizing the central command for the green light to attack. The knesset ratified the incursion before the expiry of the ceasefire date.
If Hamas had been able to exercise strategic wisdom and smarter tactics in their confrontation with Israel, would there be any large number of deaths on the Palestinian side compared to the Israelis
I agree with you on this. The casualty ratio will be more proportionate. This is attributed to the ill-equiped Hamas military infrastructure. Militar analysts have pointed out that if the scenario was such Israel were to engaged in a warfare with infrastructure similar to Hamas, their soldiers will be killed.
Hamas will not borrow your line of argument as their agenda is to win the psychological propaganda war over the Israelis - by causing as many Palestinian casualties as possible after each intentional attack towards Israel.
Is this your own opinion or cited from a credible, neutral source?
Is Israel the only one guilty of the killing, or is Hamas not equally guilty for causing the casualties and deaths amongst the innocent Palestinians - by attacking Israel from densely populated areas of Palestinian residences, refugee camps and schools ?
Israel is guilty of the massacre of almost 800 lives, at least half of which are civilians according to U.N sources. Hamas is guilty of the massacre of 13 Israeli, 10 of which are soldiers. The allegation that Hamas largely fires rockets from within civilian areas is still a matter of contention. Prior to the ground incursion by the IDF, I doubt Hamas fired their rockets deep from their own territory. This is due to the fact that Hamas rockets reached Ashdod a city 40km from the Gaza Border and Hamas's projectiles have similar reach only. Due to the ground incursion, the fighting occured within the civilian populations.
Have you not succumbed to propaganda - which is "Hamas organised effort to promote a particular belief" - that Israelis are massacreing the Palestinians ?
Are you not regurgitating what is being repeated on behalf of Hamas - despite your declared efforts of being a neutral ?
I find your statement that the fact that the Israelis are massacreing the Palestinians is Hamas perpetuated propaganda most disturbing. Neutrality and factual information is being tarnished by blatant, incomprehensible accusations of being Hamas propaganda tools. Hamas releases nothing more than mere rhetoric to the press, short of relevent statistics and figures. It is the humanitarian organizations and personnel working from Gaza providing us with the relevent statistics and facts.
I shall not present my facts and substantiations with regards to oil exploitation as I have yet to exercise my due dilligence on this issue. I hope some others there follow this lead and realise that ample research and study neccessitates any legitimate analysis on this conflict.
jojobeach,
Finally, you have input the some form of neutrality into this discussion. Never once did I asset Hamas is NOT to be blamed for this carnage. My point was pretty simple, Israel is killing with civilians intently although their reports contradicts most independent credible sources reporting from the warzone. Thus, they have to share a bigger portion of the blame due to the killings.
Yes. Hamas did reject the UN administered truce.
Reason: Not interested as it was not consulted and the truce fails to meet its requirements.
However, your purposeful omission of the similar fact that Israel rejected the truth reeks of prejudice.
Reason: FM Livni stated that Israel will not allow an external body to dictate the actions of a sovereign nation.
Which raison d etre is more sensible?
Moreover, Israeli polls show that 90% of the Jewish majority is in favour of the war. Numerous deductions can be made from this sick reality.
jojobeach,
I shall not insult my intelligence and capacity as a writer by placing the blame majoritarily on a single side, especially one which has caused a number on casualties lesser than the number of traffic fatalities over the Jewish holiday weekend.
I shall not contaminate my ethics to place the blame primarily on the side who have caused majoritarily combatant casualties in comparison to one who have caused more than half civilian deaths.
I do not know what have been your daily dosage of news, knowledge and information. But it is all too apparent that the dosage has been not very wide ranging.
Even Israeli Peace Groups and human rights organizations comprising of mainly Jews, namely, Bat Tsafon, Gush Shalom, The Israeli Committee Against House Demolitions (ICAHD) have protested and blamed their own government for the conflict. So who are you to blame the plight of the Palestinians not on the Zionist aggression and terrorism?
World opinion is against the Zionist in this conflict minus the U.S and Germany to name a few. Even so, it is limited to their Zionist backed elites.
Originally posted by Jarhum:jojobeach,
Finally, you have input the some form of neutrality into this discussion. Never once did I asset Hamas is NOT to be blamed for this carnage. My point was pretty simple, Israel is killing with civilians intently although their reports contradicts most independent credible sources reporting from the warzone. Thus, they have to share a bigger portion of the blame due to the killings.
Yes. Hamas did reject the UN administered truce.
Reason: Not interested as it was not consulted and the truce fails to meet its requirements.
However, your purposeful omission of the similar fact that Israel rejected the truth reeks of prejudice.
Reason: FM Livni stated that Israel will not allow an external body to dictate the actions of a sovereign nation.
Which raison d etre is more sensible?
Moreover, Israeli polls show that 90% of the Jewish majority is in favour of the war. Numerous deductions can be made from this sick reality.
And what are the requirements HAMAS seeks that cannot be settled without rocket fires ?
Are HAMAS a bunch of cavemen that can only get what they want through violence and death ?
Do you also blame the Jewish majority for feeling this way about the war ?
Jarhum.. if your family is under constant threat from your neighbor.. are you going to just think it's ok not to fight back ?
If my child gets bullied in school.. I will tell him to stand up to the bully and protect himself. I don't know about you.. perhaps you will tell your child to be quiet and let the abuse continue.
So you find it sickening for Jewish majority to favor the war. Then may I ask.. are Gazans also against HAMAS firing rockets into Israel ? Or is HAMAS acting solely against the approval of their own people ?
Originally posted by Jarhum:jojobeach,
I shall not insult my intelligence and capacity as a writer by placing the blame majoritarily on a single side, especially one which has caused a number on casualties lesser than the number of traffic fatalities over the Jewish holiday weekend.
I shall not contaminate my ethics to place the blame primarily on the side who have caused majoritarily combatant casualties in comparison to one who have caused more than half civilian deaths.
I do not know what have been your daily dosage of news, knowledge and information. But it is all too apparent that the dosage has been not very wide ranging.
Even Israeli Peace Groups and human rights organizations comprising of mainly Jews, namely, Bat Tsafon, Gush Shalom, The Israeli Committee Against House Demolitions (ICAHD) have protested and blamed their own government for the conflict. So who are you to blame the plight of the Palestinians not on the Zionist aggression and terrorism?
World opinion is against the Zionist in this conflict minus the U.S and Germany to name a few. Even so, it is limited to their Zionist backed elites.
Jarhum,
Every single life is precious.. be it one or a thousand.
A murderer who killed one.. has equally sinned as one who killed 3.
Violence is violence.. there be no difference on how it's done.
You may accuse me of being prejudiced.. but you are none the better. And if you deem my news exposure is limited.. may I know where you get yours from ?
This blame game needs to stop.
well jojobeach,
Anyone who is being bullied or intimidated will stand up to the aggressor. However, in the case of the Israeli-Palestine issue, my perspective is that it does not take a genious for one to determine the aggressor and the oppressed.
However, I view such analogous examples as immature and inaccurate. Analogous examples are often used to sell a rotten product, in this case, your argument.
The initiator of this conflict varies. However, it is an event concurring a spiral effect of events which started from the establishment of Hamas in 1987. The establishment of Hamas itself was initiated by the notorious Israeli secret service itself as a balancing factor to the increasing strength of the PLO. So, you may deduce the source of the Hamas-Israel conflict.
Hamas rocket fires are insignificant vis a vis Israels missiles and tanks. Hamas and the Gazans want an end to the bloackade of neccessities by Israel.
Your prejudice is blatant and childish. You state a point, you better substantiate your claim with feasible justifications.
I definately would not blame the Jewish majority feeling this way. However, swap their status in the war with Palestinians, they be begging for the war to end.
Your arguments has been based on emotional rantings and shallow examples. Every single life is precious. But a thousand lives is a thousand times more precious than a single life. Your brand of ideology continues to stun me.
I sense you are not, or have not been educated in the tertiary level. The accuracy of citations and references is gauged by the closeness to the source of the information and the non-relation of the sources with regards to entities on both sides.
Your final statement is a total contradiction. You keep on blaming and you say it needs to stop. Even if you make an attempt for prejudice do it intelligently. Prejudice is subjective. I dare admit to less prejudice than you.
Firstly, I do blame Hamas partially. You blame Hamas entirely.
Secondly, you associate the concern I portray for innocent civilians killed in Gaza as support of Hamas while I blame civilians killed in Gaza on Israel and civilians killed in Israel on Hamas.
Thirdly, I view a thousand lives lost a thousand times worse than a live lost. Simple proportionate comparison. You equate a thousand lives lost to one.
I'll show you where you get your references from:
"Jarhum.. if your family is under constant threat from your neighbor.. are you going to just think it's ok not to fight back ?"
This pathetic comparison have been written by journalists writing in numerous reports from pro-Israeli sources. And you have quote the same source. Try reading widely instead of allowing yourself to be overwhelmed by emotions derived from such news.
It seems clearer than I am not wrong in my affirmation that you have absorbed and adopted news from a single perspective in its entrety, the American sequence of events.
Yes. I find it extremely sickening that anyone would favour this war. You strike me as a person without a slightest hint of conscience that you even attempt to blame a group of people who have lost their families, homes and whose minds are solely focused on staying alive. You think in the plight of the current state they have any means to stop the war? YES, numerous interviews have stated that Gazans want the despicable Israelis to stop the war or limit it to a border fight between those who want to fight without affecting those who does not want any.
I want to ask you a question. If your family member is shot at do you go to the government and get back at them or you go for the shooter??
Originally posted by Jarhum:well jojobeach,
Anyone who is being bullied or intimidated will stand up to the aggressor. However, in the case of the Israeli-Palestine issue, my perspective is that it does not take a genious for one to determine the aggressor and the oppressed.
However, I view such analogous examples as immature and inaccurate. Analogous examples are often used to sell a rotten product, in this case, your argument.
The initiator of this conflict varies. However, it is an event concurring a spiral effect of events which started from the establishment of Hamas in 1987. The establishment of Hamas itself was initiated by the notorious Israeli secret service itself as a balancing factor to the increasing strength of the PLO. So, you may deduce the source of the Hamas-Israel conflict.
Hamas rocket fires are insignificant vis a vis Israels missiles and tanks. Hamas and the Gazans want an end to the bloackade of neccessities by Israel.
Your prejudice is blatant and childish. You state a point, you better substantiate your claim with feasible justifications.
I definately would not blame the Jewish majority feeling this way. However, swap their status in the war with Palestinians, they be begging for the war to end.
Your arguments has been based on emotional rantings and shallow examples. Every single life is precious. But a thousand lives is a thousand times more precious than a single life. Your brand of ideology continues to stun me.
I sense you are not, or have not been educated in the tertiary level. The accuracy of citations and references is gauged by the closeness to the source of the information and the non-relation of the sources with regards to entities on both sides.
Your final statement is a total contradiction. You keep on blaming and you say it needs to stop. Even if you make an attempt for prejudice do it intelligently. Prejudice is subjective. I dare admit to less prejudice than you.
Firstly, I do blame Hamas partially. You blame Hamas entirely.
Secondly, you associate the concern I portray for innocent civilians killed in Gaza as support of Hamas while I blame civilians killed in Gaza on Israel and civilians killed in Israel on Hamas.
Thirdly, I view a thousand lives lost a thousand times worse than a live lost. Simple proportionate comparison. You equate a thousand lives lost to one.
I'll show you where you get your references from:
"Jarhum.. if your family is under constant threat from your neighbor.. are you going to just think it's ok not to fight back ?"
This pathetic comparison have been written by journalists writing in numerous reports from pro-Israeli sources. And you have quote the same source. Try reading widely instead of allowing yourself to be overwhelmed by emotions derived from such news.
It seems clearer than I am not wrong in my affirmation that you have absorbed and adopted news from a single perspective in its entrety, the American sequence of events.
Jarhum,
It is unfortunate that you believe, as long as anyone is not supporting HAMAS.. they must be Pro-Israel. Pity.
Journalists are also human.. they are not aliens. Is sharing the same views or opinion a crime against humanity ?
And so.. you believe it is ok to kill ONE.. but not many ? IS that what you really believe in ? Then I dare say Jarhum.. you are just as sickening as the Jews who favors the war.
There are many external differences.. but inside you are no different from those you hate. Really.
The world does not consist of only Gaza, Israel and America. There are other non- American news sources.
So what is it you think Israel should do ?
I agree at this stage.. it is time for the Israel offensive to stop. But what is HAMAS willing to give ?
After all the fighting.. are you expecting Israel to give HAMAS an open arm hug and kiss ?
It's really about time HAMAS step down and let another with proper diplomatic abilities to govern Gaza.
Originally posted by Jarhum:Yes. I find it extremely sickening that anyone would favour this war. You strike me as a person without a slightest hint of conscience that you even attempt to blame a group of people who have lost their families, homes and whose minds are solely focused on staying alive. You think in the plight of the current state they have any means to stop the war? YES, numerous interviews have stated that Gazans want the despicable Israelis to stop the war or limit it to a border fight between those who want to fight without affecting those who does not want any.
I want to ask you a question. If your family member is shot at do you go to the government and get back at them or you go for the shooter??
No Jarhum, my heart goes out to the families who lost their love ones, be they Palestinians or Israelis.
That is why I believe HAMAS is irresponsible and reckless in handling the life of Gazans. They ( HAMAS) are supposed to protect them ( Gazans) .. not put them(Gazans) in the line of fire.
Does HAMAS really think that when they shoot 3 rockets into Israel.. then Israel is suppose to shoot only 3 back ? Really.. are HAMAS a bunch of 10 years old ?
Besides.. just look at the geographic disadvantage of Gaza. It's really stupid for HAMAS to be so hostile towards their closest neighbour.
Jojobch
You have made another feeble attempt at arguing. I emphasize, you state a claim verify it with substatiations. Your first line would never score any points in a debate.
You fail miserably at rebutting my point and continue stating new incoherent ones.
Your statements continually reflect your dangerously low level of competence in this issue.
I take offence at your defamation. Never did I sanction the taking of lives. I reiteratd the opposite.
I never esposed any form of hate to anyone except for the barbaric taking of lives from both sides. Any justification?
Well, if you believe your statements reflect logic and rationalism, please feel free to challenge me to a purposeful debate. You are most welcome.
I have this hunch, you are either very young or extremely immature.
You really think an Israeli-friendly entity would take over the governance of Gaza? You really think any Israeli-friendly individual is left in Gaza after the malicious attacks by the Israeli army?
Maybe Israel should abide by the Geneva conventions and halt its war crimes. You see, during yesterday's 3 hour ceasefire, Hamas fire stopped. But after the ceasefire ended, Israeli continued its sadistic mayhem of Gaza that was only when Hamas rocket attacks commenced. I bet you have very little technical knowledge of the situation.
So kid, refrain from indulging in a realm you are so unfamiliar with.
Your grasp of this issue is pathetic as well as the essence of your arguments. This reflects tremendously on you.
Jojobch,
The logic that Hamas are to solely or majoritarily blamed for the deaths of civilians and Israel claims legitimacy for these killings in Gaza is severely twisted. It is a form of reasoning which is an insult to my reasoning.
This form of twisted logic is parallel to the reasoning that U.S government bears major responsibility for the deaths of the innocent lives of 911 due to the result of the governments foreign policy. They should not have picked a fight with the Al-Qaeda who has shadowy killing abilities.
The cause of death should be primarily attributed to the causation. Not by inferring a chain of people who might have been the motivation behind the killer's motive.
Anyway, international law recognizes the atrocities commited by Israel. Numerous Peace groups and human right organizations has repeatedly appealed to Israel to halt its mayhem. Who are you to argue otherwise?
Originally posted by Jarhum:Jojobch,
The logic that Hamas are to solely or majoritarily blamed for the deaths of civilians and Israel claims legitimacy for these killings in Gaza is severely twisted. It is a form of reasoning which is an insult to my reasoning.
This form of twisted logic is parallel to the reasoning that U.S government bears major responsibility for the deaths of the innocent lives of 911 due to the result of the governments foreign policy. They should not have picked a fight with the Al-Qaeda who has shadowy killing abilities.
The cause of death should be primarily attributed to the causation. Not by inferring a chain of people who might have been the motivation behind the killer's motive.
Anyway, international law recognizes the atrocities commited by Israel. Numerous Peace groups and human right organizations has repeatedly appealed to Israel to halt its mayhem. Who are you to argue otherwise?
Jarhum,
And you still have not answered my question.
What is it that HAMAS seek from Israel that cannot be resolved without use of violence ?
Why should Israel stop when HAMAS has repeatedly refused to stop their rocket fires ? Because Israel is the bigger bully ? Hahahahhaha...very funny... and you accused others of twisted logic ?
I never say Israel is innocent. In this conflict both are at fault.
While you attempt to pin point the bigger faulter.. I disagree with ignoring the smaller one.
If they are both my children.. I will whip both with equal strokes of the cane.
But still.. two wrongs does not make one right. Very simple logic.. nothing to twist.
You call yourself a political scientist ? Please don't insult the professionals ok ? Good.
For the sake of Gazans. HAMAS needs to be removed.
Originally posted by jojobeach:Jarhum,
And you still have not answered my question.
What is it that HAMAS seek from Israel that cannot be resolved without use of violence ?
Why should Israel stop when HAMAS has repeatedly refused to stop their rocket fires ? Because Israel is the bigger bully ? Hahahahhaha...very funny... and you accused others of twisted logic ?
I never say Israel is innocent. In this conflict both are at fault.
While you attempt to pin point the bigger faulter.. I disagree with ignoring the smaller one.
If they are both my children.. I will whip both with equal strokes of the cane.
But still.. two wrongs does not make one right. Very simple logic.. nothing to twist.
You call yourself a political scientist ? Please don't insult the professionals ok ? Good.
For the sake of Gazans. HAMAS needs to be removed.
political scientist come here and post...OMG!!! sg will be famous soon, i want to be a part of it...me social scientist at my red light district..if needed, i can contribute my input.
Men make war, women and children suffer. Go to hell men
Originally posted by Jarhum:Jojobch,
The logic that Hamas are to solely or majoritarily blamed for the deaths of civilians and Israel claims legitimacy for these killings in Gaza is severely twisted. It is a form of reasoning which is an insult to my reasoning.
This form of twisted logic is parallel to the reasoning that U.S government bears major responsibility for the deaths of the innocent lives of 911 due to the result of the governments foreign policy. They should not have picked a fight with the Al-Qaeda who has shadowy killing abilities.
The cause of death should be primarily attributed to the causation. Not by inferring a chain of people who might have been the motivation behind the killer's motive.
Anyway, international law recognizes the atrocities commited by Israel. Numerous Peace groups and human right organizations has repeatedly appealed to Israel to halt its mayhem. Who are you to argue otherwise?
If peace group don't advocate for peace, what should they do instead? Isn't that a very lame point to bring up?
Your internatioal law could be more valid if you empahsis on it more. WHO recognized the atrocities? WHAT are the atrocities.
people like to bring up 911, and i always remember why people think 911 is bad. Apparently, they think it is bad because it is an unprovoked terrorist attack on the civilian population. Isreal is an provoked military actions aimed at the military operations. learn the difference.
Originally posted by Jarhum:Jojobch
You have made another feeble attempt at arguing. I emphasize, you state a claim verify it with substatiations. Your first line would never score any points in a debate.
You fail miserably at rebutting my point and continue stating new incoherent ones.
Your statements continually reflect your dangerously low level of competence in this issue.
I take offence at your defamation. Never did I sanction the taking of lives. I reiteratd the opposite.
I never esposed any form of hate to anyone except for the barbaric taking of lives from both sides. Any justification?
Well, if you believe your statements reflect logic and rationalism, please feel free to challenge me to a purposeful debate. You are most welcome.
I have this hunch, you are either very young or extremely immature.
You really think an Israeli-friendly entity would take over the governance of Gaza? You really think any Israeli-friendly individual is left in Gaza after the malicious attacks by the Israeli army?
Maybe Israel should abide by the Geneva conventions and halt its war crimes. You see, during yesterday's 3 hour ceasefire, Hamas fire stopped. But after the ceasefire ended, Israeli continued its sadistic mayhem of Gaza that was only when Hamas rocket attacks commenced. I bet you have very little technical knowledge of the situation.
So kid, refrain from indulging in a realm you are so unfamiliar with.
Your grasp of this issue is pathetic as well as the essence of your arguments. This reflects tremendously on you.
you know why the cease fire ended? cause some ass from the Hamas continued to fire at the Isreali army. And who will you believe, the well trained and disciplined Isreal Defence Force or the rag tag militants of Hamas?
Originally posted by skythewood:you know why the cease fire ended? cause some ass from the Hamas continued to fire at the Isreali army. And who will you believe, the well trained and disciplined Isreal Defence Force or the rag tag militants of Hamas?
and do you know when they will cease fire again, when the sponsors and supporters decided to cancel their missile supply to them.
Wars is a hyprocrisy of a few superpowers creation, on one hand, they call for cease fire and peaceful negotiation, on the other hand, they supplied the arms
Originally posted by Atobe:If Hamas had abandoned its ambition of destroying Israel, would there be any killings of any number of people ?
If Hamas had been able to exercise strategic wisdom and smarter tactics in their confrontation with Israel, would there be any large number of deaths on the Palestinian side compared to the Israelis ?
Sadly, Hamas had even admitted that they were surprised and had not expected such determined ferocity in Israeli response.
This clearly showed that Hamas was not prepared and had expected business to be as usual, where they can expect to continue firing rockets and missile into Israel at random and at their own choosing without any warnings.
Osama bin Ladin might as well borrow your intellect in protesting that after the 9-11 World Trade Center destruction - USA's right to hunt down Al Qaeda and Osama should stop when 500+ Afghans have been killed.
Unfortunately, Hamas will not borrow your line of argument as their agenda is to win the psychological propaganda war over the Israelis - by causing as many Palestinian casualties as possible after each intentional attack towards Israel.
You said it so well in your statement - "Hamas provoked Israel to retaliate, yet it is Israel that is doing the actual killing".
Is Israel the only one guilty of the killing, or is Hamas not equally guilty for causing the casualties and deaths amongst the innocent Palestinians - by attacking Israel from densely populated areas of Palestinian residences, refugee camps and schools ?
Have you not succumbed to propaganda - which is "Hamas organised effort to promote a particular belief" - that Israelis are massacreing the Palestinians ?
Are you not regurgitating what is being repeated on behalf of Hamas - despite your declared efforts of being a neutral ?
When Iraq and Iran was fighting the seven year war, French companies were in Iran exploring oil and gas.
When the USA was conducting its 'shock and awe' campaign during Dessert Storm I and II - oil companies were continuously pumping out crude in the region.
Is there any to be had, when all that exist is nothing more than hot gas ?
If Hamas had been able to exercise strategic wisdom and smarter tactics in their confrontation with Israel, would there be any large number of deaths on the Palestinian side compared to the Israelis ?
How would you advise the vastly outnumbered and outgunned Hamas to wage war against Israel, the Middle-East's superpower? Let's hear some of your "strategic wisdom".
Osama bin Ladin might as well borrow your intellect in protesting that after the 9-11 World Trade Center destruction - USA's right to hunt down Al Qaeda and Osama should stop when 500+ Afghans have been killed.
This is totally unrelated, but I'll address it anyway. If the US wanted to catch Bin Laden, it had plenty of chances to do so. After the 1993 WTC bombings, Clinton let him escape after receiving an offer from Sudan to extradite him. Then when the Taliban made the Bush Administration an offer after 9/11, the US refused. After all, the war plans for the invasion of Afghanistan were already prepared before 9/11 and troops were already massing across the Afghan border. That's because Bin Laden's just another CIA front that was hired back during the Afghan-Soviet war. In fact, a day before 9/11, Bin Laden was in a military hospital in Pakistan receiving medical treatment. Dont forget that the CIA and ISI have a rich history of cooperation starting from the Afghan-Soviet war up till this day.
Is Israel the only one guilty of the killing, or is Hamas not equally guilty for causing the casualties and deaths amongst the innocent Palestinians - by attacking Israel from densely populated areas of Palestinian residences, refugee camps and schools ?
No, as I have said many times, both parties are guilty of bloodshed. If everyone agreed on that, instead of trying to condemn one side alone, then there would not be any need to argue on this issue. Would you tell me where in Gaza is it not densely packed? I dont know, but if you can make such a statement, then you must know right? They dont have HDBs for the 1.5 million people there.
Have you not succumbed to propaganda - which is "Hamas organised effort to promote a particular belief" - that Israelis are massacreing the Palestinians ?
While "propaganda" does not have any negative denotations, I know that people like to use it to connote lies and misinformation. "Propaganda" is a technical word. I dont think Hamas can wage an effective media war because they dont have the means to do so, unlike Israel, which has taken the media war to Youtube. Anyway, how is it not true that Israel is NOT masscreing Palestinians? Your very stand is based on Israeli propaganda. How are you different?
When Iraq and Iran was fighting the seven year war, French companies were in Iran exploring oil and gas.
When the USA was conducting its 'shock and awe' campaign during Dessert Storm I and II - oil companies were continuously pumping out crude in the region.
Gaza is in a totally different context. As you know, Hamas does not have anything that resembles a national military. But how are you proving that oil and natural gas doesn't exist when you're just using your preconception that it does not exist to prove it doesn't exist? In the first place, you're not prepared to accept that. I also dont know very much about this, I've just read this information recently. And of course I would believe it until I read anything credible to the contrary.
Originally posted by angel7030:
and do you know when they will cease fire again, when the sponsors and supporters decided to cancel their missile supply to them.
Get the US to stop their $3 billion or so annual cheque to Israel's military-industrial complex.