Can SAR 21 replace M16 in US Army?
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Whatever M16 or SAR21 weapon. It is important to test them out. I mean the really field test... real gun fight.
M16 has been tested intensively during the vietnam war.
So whoever want to use the new SAR21 need to test them out, before replacing all M16.
Suggestion. Ship some SAR21 to Pakistian or India, ask their soldiers to field test the weapon. See the result. -
Wanna field test SAR-21? Easy... sell some afghan taliban fighter a batch lor. Then observe US casualties.
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1.Rate of firing of Ultimax 100 estimated fr the above photo.
Assume photo exposure is 0.2 sec.have u seen 2 shells?
2 shells divided by 0.2 x 60 sec =600 rounds per seconds.
2.
MI Tavor TAR-21 assault rifle (Israel)
fr http://world.guns.ru/assault/as30-e.htm
Is the current version comes with laser pointer? -
No, u don't need a laser pointer when u have a reflex sight.
Seriously, they need reconsider the laser pointer crap.
Night range, need to look thru scope to look for a laser dot... And we are not the only ppl who can see the LAD, enemies too can see it.
Yes, I'm aware of the invisible LAD mode, where it can be see only with night optics, but the enemy also can use night optics too!
Can't they have a glow in the dark reticule within the scope? Or make it slightly illuminated?? -
The original TAR21 has a laser aiming device.Originally posted by lionnoisy:1.Rate of firing of Ultimax 100 estimated fr the above photo.
Assume photo exposure is 0.2 sec.have u seen 2 shells?
2 shells divided by 0.2 x 60 sec =600 rounds per seconds.
2.
MI Tavor TAR-21 assault rifle (Israel)
fr http://world.guns.ru/assault/as30-e.htm
Is the current version comes with laser pointer?
Its a LAD and a reflex sight combo unit. The button for the laser is on the forward handguard.
http://www.army-technology.com/contractors/surveillance/int_tech/
Both the SAR21 and TAR21 claimed to the the first in the world to have laser arming device built in as a standard, when they were first introduced. (Both were introduced at about the same time).
The Tavor-2 has only a reflex sight, I think. -
I prefer just a reflex sight. Can screw the 1.5 optical zoom.
Best is make it optional, can switch when required.
Btw, now that there is no more bayonet fighting, will they be issuing SAF soldiers some katanas, tantos or something for close combat? =D -
The reflex sight is okay depends on which version you are using, if it is the Aimpoint or EOtech! it is battery operated and battery do run out ! the optical 1.5 x maybe a good alternative!
I personally own the Steyr AUG and really liked the 1.5x scope ! Can be use easily in close quaters and long range ( up to 600 yards we always shoot in the range here in Dallas, Texas) Wish there is more promoting of the sAR21 here in the US but there is nothing.... only time we get to see them was in the Shotshow in LAs Vegas than nothing.. FN's P90 and P2000 series is getting a lot of publicity, so is the FN SCAR, Heckler and Koch G36 and XM8... HK also comming out with a piston based M4 conversion for the M16.
Here are some of my collections in the US!
http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y66/davechng/Guns/IMG_0472.jpg
great discussion on the SAR21, wish there is somone that will market this product here in the US! We are getting the P2000 bullpup end of the year ! $1500 each! Can;t wait to play one of those!
Getting bored with M4, AUGs, galils and AKs!
DaveC -
Dave,
Was wondering how you managed to own so many assault weapons?Has the assault weapons ban been repealed?Or are they stored off site at an armory? -
Yes! Assualt weapon ban is lifted last year !and now we can have anything we want in most of the states! not in places like New York City , People's republic of California and Massachusatts! and some other communist US states ! har har!
The ban is a joke from the beginning, anything that has a pistol grip, flahhider, bayonet lug, box magazine and semi auto firing .... consitute to a assualt rifle! Anwyay! as you know all these laws are written by morons! We get to keep all the military style weapons as long as they are made in the USA! so! to consitute a US made guns, there need to have a parts count ! thus we are seeing a lot of AK, FAL, etc basically are Polish or Bulgarian AK but have a few little parts that have enough parts count to make it USA made! Thus ! US made AK74 ! Hoooo Hoooo!the sunset also setset on the magazine ban ! NOw all the pistol we can have the normal capacity , We use to were ban to 10 rd mags! now we can have the regular caps!
We are back to the good old days ! AK47 for $250! AR15 can be had for $500!
Fortunately we are seeing more company like FN building the FN2000 and P90 in the uS to make the rifle available to civilian here. Hope to see some SIG-551 an 550 , maybe good to have the FN-SCAR.
more toys here
http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y66/davechng/Guns/aef87812.jpg
http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y66/davechng/Guns/guns.jpg
Maybe some Russian Sniper!
http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y66/davechng/Guns/SVD-TIGER2.jpg
Have more to come!!>>>>
I met a few SIngaporean here that shoots also! Its amazing what we can learn from really owning the rifle and shoot competetively. If I have known what I know now, our CSM in the ARMY in small arms training seems like amatuer!
ON the discussion of the M4 and SAR21, US Army will not go into the bullpupu design becasue of several reason ! One of my buddies here just came back from Iraq for 2 tours ! they were evaluating the bullpup and find it awkward in certain style of fighting... reloading and magazine change is awkward and cumbersome ! ( I can attest to that when I was doing a 3 rifle match using my Steyr AUG.. big mistake!) the big thing now is the ammunition, the 5.56 M855 do nothave the knock down power unless you have a 20" barrel like the full size M16,! M4 is punching hole thru talibans and iraqis and not taking them down! so far the 6.5 grendal and 6.8SPC seems to do well! but in full auto it is not as controllable ! I guess it is all in the training. ! Also! the US Army M4 is in Full auto and not 3 rd burst! the 3rd burst pack on the M16A2 is a joke ! it puts u triggering spring in 3 setting thus 3 differnt trigger pull! and if you shoot 1 rd the next burst is 2 rd! I guess thats why they are getting rid of it... I presume the USMC is still keeping the POS burst kit on their M16A3. I heard from Sources in the ARMY that the XM8 from HK did not do well in the test and they are openning up the evaluation for more contender! !Hope to other designs!>>>> Actually I am waiting to see the HK M4 ... it is an M16 upper but have a piston on it.. to me that is the ultimate AR which solves the 1st problem of the M16 direct gas system ... and the ergonomics of the M16 series is just 2nd to none...
DaveC! -
Want to buy SAR @! in US,see http://www.vt-systems.com/vts/dsp_vts_company.cfm?vts_company=18
VT Kinetics
3800 Richardson Road South
Hope Hull, AL 36043
Telephone: 334-284-8665
Fax: 334-613-6302
www.stengg.com/kinetics/ourbusiness.aspx
or CLASS THREE SUPPLY. -
The LAD works on the SAR...
The sad thing is that most of the time it's not zeroed... screw the factory zeroing, after months of use it's going to go out... hence I'm forced to aim off everytime I go life fire with it, but hey it works... -
HAve contacted them when I was in SHotshow, .... they are only interested to market it to the military and law enforcement department,
UNfortunately, these people do not realize the concept of US mind set, a lot of law enforcement dept are quite entrench with the M16,AR system becasue of the ease of transition ... most officers are Ex-military and transisting to a M16 system is the logical way! to retrain everyone to a new Bullpup system requires a lot more training. Don;t forget the lawyers in the US that hound on anyone because of lack of training ! so! it is also a liability isuue to involve a brand new type of system.
Thus, the system don;t sell here,!
As for class 3! as long as the weapon is built after 1986 and imported, it cannot be sold as a c3 weapon unless you are a C2 dealer or law enforcement or military!
ST do not realize the power of the US civilian arms ownership! HK and several other weapons mfr have catered their weapon systems to the US public and gain quite a lot of mkt place ! and if your product is familiar by the general user, than the product sells itself if it is a good product. TOo bad these people have such narrow minds!
Same thing with the Ultimax 100! the main complain with my SEAL friends are that they feeding system is not good ! the drum has to be loaded with machine and the system do not allow a belt feedinf system ! also the ROF is much slower compared to the M249 which in the US concept, they need a high rate of fire, belt fed as the bare minimum for a SAW!
Thus ! none of the SAR21 or U100 is selling here in the US or western based countries. at the rate ST is marketing... Maybe some 3rd world country may look into it ! SO SAD!
YOu will be suprise how much civilian market has influence the military and law enforecement here in the US! we have IPSC, IDPA , NRA and other matches that civilians and law enforement join ! and a lot of grand master shooter are inturn training the military on shooting techniques! IN all these matches ! we see HK, FN, Steyr, SIG, GLock! no sight of our belove U100 and SAR21!
DaveC! -
Grenade Rifle Entry Munition
http://www.gdatp.com/Products/lethality/grem/grem.htm
The Grenade Rifle Entry Munition (GREM) is a 100mm high-explosive insensitive munition that provides a safe and effective means of defeating all types of entry doors without endangering troops or sacrificing the element of surprise. Simple to use and requiring minimal training, GREM is launched from the end of a rifle with the use of standard rifle ammunition.
Specifications
Projectile Type Ballistic
Warhead:120mm High-Explosive Insensitive Munition
Weight 1.5 Pounds (.68 kg)
Length 15.4 Inches (391mm) Excluding Standoff Rod
Performance:Maximum Range 36 Yards (33m) -
First of all, envious of al your toys.Originally posted by davechng:Actually I am waiting to see the HK M4 ... it is an M16 upper but have a piston on it.. to me that is the ultimate AR which solves the 1st problem of the M16 direct gas system ... and the ergonomics of the M16 series is just 2nd to none...
DaveC!
I completely agree that the M16 ergonomics is second to none. If someone shoot his M16 empty, he can still reload and fire within 2 seconds. With a bullpup it would take a lifetime of awkward fumbling. I have handled a Steyr but never fired one.
For infantry use I'm not too keen on optics on account of all the mud, dust, water and general dampness that you encounter in the field.
Maybe optics are useful in the desert where it is mostly dry and you shoot over long distances.
Even in FIBUA I can imagine its usefulness when you are shooting at someone bunkered in a building - but optics will be crap for CQB fighting indoors.
But I think that's where the red dot thing come in. I think the red dot laser is very useful for CQB where you may need to shoot from the hip at an instant, but for night fighting in the jungle what's the point of being able to see your red dot if you can't see anything else? And it also gives enemy RPG teams something to aim at.
Some of the photos from SHOT shows on the net showed that more than one company is making gas pistons for the M16. I think some of these are sold as conversion kits to be fitted by a gunsmith. It involve a completely redesigned bolt carrier without the little pipe thing. However, the piston system cutaway pic I saw showed a lot fiddly little parts. Wouldn't those similarly get clogged with gas carbon? -
HI TV DOg!
I have currently seen the POF-USA design of the piston based M16, www.pof-usa.com HK design may not be out yet!! Another company is ZM weapons ( or the LR300 series) but they want an arm and a leg for their system.
Anyway!, with a piston, the dirty gas will be only in the piston head area, just like the AUG, SIG550, AK, SAR21, SAR80.... the only downside is that when in extreme weather like hot and cold, there may not have enough gas to push the piston thus most of these rifle like FNC, SIG, AUG etc have a gas setting.
TO answer the question, I have gone thru 2000 rds of 5.56 on an AUG and the bolt and bolt carrier is spanking clean ! the only dirty part is the piston! wipe it clean and you're good to go for another 2000.... as for the M16 direct gas, the bolt gets so dirty pass 1000 rds! thus ini full auto fireing the rate of fire goes slower when the the carbon built up in the bolt and bolt carrier gets up...
In the US, a piston based M16 conversion is the way to do becasue we have all kinds of M16 parts we can get CHEAP and easy accessible.
As for CQB setup, I have tried several from Iron sights, to Eotech and AImpoint and also the ELcan or the ACOG TA-01NSN!
YEs! the best would be the EOtech ( I like the wide view and the hologram is just so easy and fast to aquire target) AImpoint M2 or would be by next choice! ACOG and ELcan type optics is too slow and the Magnification is just too big.. field of View is too narrow. Iron sights is good, but not as fast as the EOtech or dot sight ! but I guess no batteries needed and in SNAFU situation, all system is good to back up with an iron sights!
My M4 setup with a EOtech 551 Rev F with a ARMS backup iron sights !Knights industries RAS2 withM3 light and fwd front grip!
My ultimate CQB setup would be all the setup plus a piston based M16 upper!
http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y66/davechng/Guns/m16-10.jpg
DaveC! -
Now if I had gotten a chance to mess with a M4 carbine..I would have been quite happy during NS.I was an Armament Specialist..so much weapons..but no real work..only repair.Originally posted by davechng:HI TV DOg!
I have currently seen the POF-USA design of the piston based M16, www.pof-usa.com HK design may not be out yet!! Another company is ZM weapons ( or the LR300 series) but they want an arm and a leg for their system.
Anyway!, with a piston, the dirty gas will be only in the piston head area, just like the AUG, SIG550, AK, SAR21, SAR80.... the only downside is that when in extreme weather like hot and cold, there may not have enough gas to push the piston thus most of these rifle like FNC, SIG, AUG etc have a gas setting.
TO answer the question, I have gone thru 2000 rds of 5.56 on an AUG and the bolt and bolt carrier is spanking clean ! the only dirty part is the piston! wipe it clean and you're good to go for another 2000.... as for the M16 direct gas, the bolt gets so dirty pass 1000 rds! thus ini full auto fireing the rate of fire goes slower when the the carbon built up in the bolt and bolt carrier gets up...
In the US, a piston based M16 conversion is the way to do becasue we have all kinds of M16 parts we can get CHEAP and easy accessible.
As for CQB setup, I have tried several from Iron sights, to Eotech and AImpoint and also the ELcan or the ACOG TA-01NSN!
YEs! the best would be the EOtech ( I like the wide view and the hologram is just so easy and fast to aquire target) AImpoint M2 or would be by next choice! ACOG and ELcan type optics is too slow and the Magnification is just too big.. field of View is too narrow. Iron sights is good, but not as fast as the EOtech or dot sight ! but I guess no batteries needed and in SNAFU situation, all system is good to back up with an iron sights!
My M4 setup with a EOtech 551 Rev F with a ARMS backup iron sights !Knights industries RAS2 withM3 light and fwd front grip!
My ultimate CQB setup would be all the setup plus a piston based M16 upper!
http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y66/davechng/Guns/m16-10.jpg
DaveC! -
I'll grab one of those OICW carbine SAR-21s the ACMS all seem to be using...
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Originally posted by SingaporeTyrannosaur:I'll grab one of those OICW carbine SAR-21s the ACMS all seem to be using...
This? -
Wow ! that is a nice setup! Espeicallyliked the Picatinny type rail on the front !
DAveC! -
Thats the export version. I don't know of any units that use this version of the Sar-21 in Singapore. Then again, I know quite little.
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Images already on 01.07.05 posting.
STimes 18.08.04 and 01.07.04
What are the versions?Too bulky to carry?Wg only 5 kg,3 kg less. -
Shoot out at Blackwater,US.
http://www.snipercountry.com/photogallery/PG_Weapons.asp
Shooting the Galil in .308. Target was the best group at 800 meters. Not bad for a semi auto but bolt action do better. Courtesy of Philippe Mullot.
Official site:
http://www.blackwaterusa.com/press/
http://www.armedforcesjournal.com/blackwater/?s=2005_comments#416
Any shoot out of products of this red dot city state? -
This is our new ACMS system.For SAF only.Not sure about export variants.Originally posted by Shotgun:Thats the export version. I don't know of any units that use this version of the Sar-21 in Singapore. Then again, I know quite little. -
Have i show you what Jean's expert says about SAR 21,though its dated 2000.
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Guys, I recently tried the SAR21 again. I realised something, there is something with te trigger which irks me. Okay, previously with the M16, I can shoot double taps with the weapon in the SEMI mode swiftly,however with the SAR21, I realise that I'm unable to shoot doubletaps. I have to like release the trigger and then pull back again. This is kinda slow, I can't feel the weapon and tell exactly when it how much trigger pull is required to fully fire off the weapon. Its kinda strange as the trigger pull seems to require more strength compared to the M16. Perhaps the sharpshooter version has a lighter trigger squeeze?
