Buried News: F16D shot down by Mirage 2000EGM
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Seems not too many people are aware of this " old " news because all the details are kept somewhat secret.
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F-16 Airframe Details for 91-0023 which was shot down by M2000 in 1996
http://www.f-16.net/f-16_fighting_falcon_airframe-3371.html
Comments:
Crashed into the Aegean Sea nine miles off the island of Chios during a routine flight. It was part of a flight of four F-4's and two F-16's. Just prior to the mishap two Mirage 2000's intercepted them. One of two person crew was rescued but the other is missing. According to an official report, the TUAF formation had illegaly violated Hellenic airspace and so was intercepted by 2 HAF Mirage 2000EG (331sqn, 114FW, Tanagra AB). The 2 TUAF F-16s evidently denied to comply and started agressive maneuvers against the HAF Mirage 2000EG. During the engagment that followed, one of the HAF Mirage 2000EG (piloted by lt. Grivas) fired a Magic IR missile. As a result a TUAF F-16D (#91-0023) was shot down. Immediately the second TUAF F-16 paused the engagment and escaped to the east in order to return to international air space. It was later determined (and kept secret) that the downed pilot who survived from the crash was in fact an Israeli pilot (Osman Cýceklý) dispached from IDFAF. The second pilot (TUAF flight officer) failed to eject in time due to the missile hit and was killed. The downed pilot was rescued 30 min. after shot down by a HAF AB-205 SAR helo (from 358th search and rescue squadron). The pilot received immediate medical care and returned a few days later to Turkey with a HAF C-130 flight. At first the incident was kept secret for obvious purposes and both countries (Greece and Turkey) officialy adopted a mechanical failure as the main cause of the accident. In 2003 the Greek Minister of Defence, Mr. Giannos Papantoniou, stated in public that the incident of Oct. 8th, 1996, that led to the loss of the TUAF F-16D was a result of the immediate action that was taken by HAF fighters during an interception against TUAF fighters violating Greek airspace. -
Im not surprised that shots are actually fired. Haha.
I suspect that the Israeli pilot really wanted to stay out of this kinda situation. -
What was an Israeli pilot doing in a TUAF plane? The two countries aren't exactly that cozy with each other.
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The turks aren't arabs. They aren't that "uncozy."
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one of pilot in the F16D got killed, later on the victim's relatives asked for compensation, that action makes the event fully exposed. Who still wants to stay out of any situation when he is dieingOriginally posted by Shotgun:Im not surprised that shots are actually fired. Haha.
I suspect that the Israeli pilot really wanted to stay out of this kinda situation.
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Yes, it doesn't make sense why an israeli pilot is in a warplane owned by a muslim country and militarily involved with live missiles with another country which have no problems with Israel! If the Israelis are training the Turks, then shouldn't they be doing so, way back in Turkish airspace itself?
Greece and Turkey have fought a war over Cyprus and have complex maritime, air, territorial, and boundary disputes in the Aegean Sea. I mean these disputed boundaries should be the last place any foreign military personnel will want to be near! And certainly not with live ammo!
Can any people with knowledge on this pls explain to me? I will like to learn more on this matter.Thanks
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ItÂ’s really not too much light shed on this matter, could be the successful PR efforts by the Americans if you compared to the tons of info covered the F16Â’s rather easily win over SerbÂ’s Mig29 in 1999. IMO, this classic dog fight carried between 2 3rd Gen fighters should be more referred, considering the pilots and AF size of both sides are comparable to each other.
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I don't think this was a dogfight at all. As said, the Turks probably insisted that they were NOT in greek airspace, and the greeks said they were.
The greeks manuevered aggressively to show that they mean business, and the turks (with an israeli pilot), as they began to respond with a counter manuever, was popped with a WVR missile.
Question is: Were the turks armed? Was it necessary to fire on the F-16s if they were unarmed? -
Originally posted by Shotgun:
well, see the most detailed Description I can get so far on this event:
I don't think this was a dogfight at all. As said, the Turks probably insisted that they were NOT in greek airspace, and the greeks said they were.
The greeks manuevered aggressively to show that they mean business, and the turks (with an israeli pilot), as they began to respond with a counter manuever, was popped with a WVR missile.
""The combat began with a pair each of Turkish F-16s and Greek Mirage 2000s, but during the high-G manoeuvring the pairs split up. The Greek Mirage 2K got inside its opponent's turn, closed in and launched a French Magic missile - a hit. The F-16 was destroyed. ""
So you judge it's typical dog fight or notQuestion is: Were the turks armed? Was it necessary to fire on the F-16s if they were unarmed?
An unarmed F16 dared to perform so aggressively by supposed well trained pilot? IÂ’d better believe my commonsense judgement before jumping into TurksÂ’ claim in forums. -
We have to admit.sometimes french stuff r really good. Tested and proven! Six-days war and now the Greeks and Turks incident. Unfortunately,we r not going to get our hands on some Rafale but rather some old-design F-15E..
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Originally posted by zenden9:
The French can be a hard nose bunch to deal with, with their snobbish insistence of ignoring English.
We have to admit.sometimes french stuff r really good. Tested and proven! Six-days war and now the Greeks and Turks incident. Unfortunately,we r not going to get our hands on some Rafale but rather some old-design F-15E..
Fortunately, we did not decide in favor of the Rafale, or we will have tons of problems with translation of the Operating and Spare Parts Manuals.
Is it not surprising that the SAF - after testing with a few units - did not proceed with the purchase of the AMX-10 APC ? -
Originally posted by tankee1981:
The Israelis and the Turks have found some common ground to build on their relationship.
Yes, it doesn't make sense why an israeli pilot is in a warplane owned by a muslim country and militarily involved with live missiles with another country which have no problems with Israel! If the Israelis are training the Turks, then shouldn't they be doing so, way back in Turkish airspace itself?
Greece and Turkey have fought a war over Cyprus and have complex maritime, air, territorial, and boundary disputes in the Aegean Sea. I mean these disputed boundaries should be the last place any foreign military personnel will want to be near! And certainly not with live ammo!
Can any people with knowledge on this pls explain to me? I will like to learn more on this matter.Thanks
Although Turkey is largely Islamic, they maintained a secular government, and the Turkish Military has insisted that 'Religion' has no place in Politics.
Both Israel and Turkey share common fear towards the ambitions of Syria, Iraq and Iran - each for their own internal politics and social-religious principles.
The "Enemy of My Enemy, is My Friend" - perhaps explains the psychology of the relationship between Turkey and Israel.
For more reading on this very interesting modern day politics, try the following:
Turkish PM visit Israel - 2005
Israel Shifting of Geopolitical Security Concerns Threaten its Relationship with Turkey - 2004
Turkish-Jewish Friendship Over 500 Years
The Region: Turkey is IsraelÂ’s best neighbor. - 2001
The Israeli-Turkish Connection - 1999
Turkey – Israeli Relationship - 1997 -
According to your account, it really seemed like the Greeks went aggressive first. Firstly, no self respecting pilot is gonna allow another aircraft get on his six. If he sees the Mirage2000 suddenly split out and manuever behind him, the F-16 Pilot WILL try to out turn him. Cos whoever is behind gets to dictate the terms.Originally posted by 38�Ž:An unarmed F16 dared to perform so aggressively by supposed well trained pilot? I’d better believe my commonsense judgement before jumping into Turks’ claim in forums.
Honestly, I didn think the Turkish flight would have expected the greeks to actually shoot. Who the hell fires a war shot without formally declaring war?
Given the profile of their missions, I would think the Mirage flight was more aggressive and went on the offensive first. The Turks picked a bad day to play chicken with the greeks.
On the question of whether the F-16s were armed... well, I do not believe they were. Not that they would shoot back, but if they were gonna poke around Greek airspace to test their defences, and dodge back into international airspace, then they'd better be unarmed. Lest they be shot on sight. In fact, they aren't even supposed to turn on their fire control radar. -
Originally posted by Shotgun:
Well, it's not my account, if you see the report quoted by F-16.net again, especially those words I highlighted, youÂ’ll see Turks were the 1 who initialize the high G maneuvers which no doubt will be seen as war behavior. I quote again here:
According to your account, it really seemed like the Greeks went aggressive first. Firstly, no self respecting pilot is gonna allow another aircraft get on his six. If he sees the Mirage2000 suddenly split out and manuever behind him, the F-16 Pilot WILL try to out turn him. Cos whoever is behind gets to dictate the terms.
"...The 2 TUAF F-16s evidently denied to comply and started agressive maneuvers against the HAF Mirage 2000EG... "Honestly, I didn think the Turkish flight would have expected the greeks to actually shoot. Who the hell fires a war shot without formally declaring war?
This scenario can be interpreted as 1 ( or several)unauthorized person enters military restricted area and soldiers with gun are sent to intercept him, as soon as this guy sees the soldier coming and starts to run, you can expect the soldiers reaction.Given the profile of their missions, I would think the Mirage flight was more aggressive and went on the offensive first. The Turks picked a bad day to play chicken with the greeks.
Well what undeniable is the Mirages did out perform the F16D and gain the position allowed it to shoot the Magic II IR. The fact I really count.On the question of whether the F-16s were armed... well, I do not believe they were. Not that they would shoot back, but if they were gonna poke around Greek airspace to test their defences, and dodge back into international airspace, then they'd better be unarmed. Lest they be shot on sight. In fact, they aren't even supposed to turn on their fire control radar.
If the F16D were unarmed, I doubt its powerful General Electric F110-GE-100 engine can't out run the Mirage 2000EGM's single spool, T/W 6.5 only M53 engine and let the Mirage2000 gain the position. More likely is the F16 is armed and the plane thus lost some agilty. And based on record, these 2 F16s ( 1 -C, 1 -D) were sent to backup the 4 F-4s.
Anyway, because the lack of details, too many sayings are flown all around -
there is also the question... does the greek pilot think that he will be shot down.
technically... this greek and turkish air tango aint rare.. its pretty common from what i heard.. but no planes were ever shot down... at least no live fire was ever initiated.
if the greek pilot believe that he will not be shot down.. chances is... he isnt really doing his best... to fight.. i mean... he is somewhat mentally "disarmed" based on past experience with turkish air force.
the isreali pilots on the other hand.. were real warriors.. they lived in a place where war is common.. planes do shoot live ammo and pilots are killed...
there is probably no reason for the isreali pilot to believe otherwise, the intention of the greek pilot when he see the greek F-16 doing "aggressive manouver".
the first thing that came to the greek pilot's mind prior to the engagement is probably "OK.. LETS have some FUN!"
the last thing that came to the greek pilots mind when the missile came for him, is probably " HOLY SHIT.. HE REALLY FIRE AT ME!!" -
Erm...ain't it the Turkish jets which were shot down and not the Greek's Mirages?Originally posted by tripwire:there is also the question... does the greek pilot think that he will be shot down.
technically... this greek and turkish air tango aint rare.. its pretty common from what i heard.. but no planes were ever shot down... at least no live fire was ever initiated.
if the greek pilot believe that he will not be shot down.. chances is... he isnt really doing his best... to fight.. i mean... he is somewhat mentally "disarmed" based on past experience with turkish air force.
the isreali pilots on the other hand.. were real warriors.. they lived in a place where war is common.. planes do shoot live ammo and pilots are killed...
there is probably no reason for the isreali pilot to believe otherwise, the intention of the greek pilot when he see the greek F-16 doing "aggressive manouver".
the first thing that came to the greek pilot's mind prior to the engagement is probably "OK.. LETS have some FUN!"
the last thing that came to the greek pilots mind when the missile came for him, is probably " HOLY SHIT.. HE REALLY FIRE AT ME!!" -
Have u seen the Turkish account?Originally posted by 38�Ž:If the F16D were unarmed, I doubt its powerful General Electric F110-GE-100 engine can't out run the Mirage 2000EGM's single spool, T/W 6.5 only M53 engine and let the Mirage2000 gain the position. More likely is the F16 is armed and the plane thus lost some agilty. And based on record, these 2 F16s ( 1 -C, 1 -D) were sent to backup the 4 F-4s.
Anyway, because the lack of details, too many sayings are flown all around
The Aegean sea is a problematic area. The Greeks recognise a 12-mile territorial sea limit, while the Turks do not. So the turks believe they are operating in International Airspace, while the Greeks think that the Turks are violating their airspace.
Naturally, if you THINK u are right, and you think u are in International Airspace, u wouldn't comply if someone asks u to leave a place which is rightfully free right? So what will u do? Continue on your course, and ignore the bugger rite?
The Greeks now gets pissed. Hence they manuever in with their Fire Control Radar on.
On the recieving end, the Israeli pilot, probably veteran of pissing of Arab neighbours, hears his Radar warning reciever go off. And instinctively executes a max-g break to put the Mirage on his 3-9 line. (Remember, in WVR combat, a radar lock is equivalent to a missile launch because IR guided missiles dun trigger off alerts to the RWR). He'd probably pop off some flares to be safe. PROBABLY.
TWO POSSIBLE events may happened subsequently.
1. Mirage pilot sees the max -G break, assumes it as a hostile action. And pulls hard together the F-16 for a Fox2.
Turk pilot goes "WTF" and bugs out.
OR.
2. F-16 makes the Max-G break. Turk pilot sees that and thinks they are being shot at, turns towards the Mirage flight and spikes the Mirage Flight.
Mirage pilot goes "WTF" with his already locked weapon and fires (probably doesnt have authority to shoot...) thinking that the Turks are returning fire. Poor Israeli pilot gets shot down for doing the right thing with the wrong people...
Now, how is it that the F-16 gets out turned? The F-16 was probably not in its corner airspeed, which is about 340-440 kts. That is the speed which the F-16 makes the most radians per second. Not gonna say how much exactly that is... but its enough to out turn most planes.
So was the F16s faster than 440, or lesser than 340? If faster, they were probably in a hurry going somewhere.
IF slower, they were probably cruising along for wad ever reason they were told to.
But I'm pretty sure the Turks weren't planning to invade Greece with 2 F-16s.
All in all, its still the Greek Mirage 2000 flight that has the more aggressive mission profile. That was to INTERCEPT the F-16s. -
Why sometimes it is so hard to believe Yankee stuff is not invincible? Why so many people get into the defence of F-16? Just becos RSAF operating it? Mirage 2000 is a very capapble fighter too! Can just people believe a Mirage 2000 can outmanoevre a F-16? Why must put all the blame on pilot and situations???
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Becoz, ultimately, its the pilot that is the factor.
Any plane can tahan more than 9gs, but not every pilot can. -
On the contrary, the Turks are friendly with the Israelis. Logic says that a Muslim country can't be but I know it is so. The Turkish F4 Phantoms and F 5s have Isreali upgrades. In fact, the F5 was a joint upgrade between an Israeli firm and a Singapore one.Originally posted by Obersturmfuhrer:What was an Israeli pilot doing in a TUAF plane? The two countries aren't exactly that cozy with each other. -
Come on..It's a Israeli pilot..This proves what? Even good pilot needs a gd plane and Mirage 2000 abt to shot it down proves Mirage 2000 is damm good plane.Originally posted by Shotgun:Becoz, ultimately, its the pilot that is the factor.
Any plane can tahan more than 9gs, but not every pilot can. -
Originally posted by Shotgun:
Well, with F16C/D’s much better radar, no doubt, when the Mirage 2000EGM incoming, the F16D would detect the Mirage2000EGM 1st, at least, the F16D would point the nose towards the in coming Mirage2000EGM, In another word, initially, both pairs are on a head on course, once the 2 pairs ( F16s & Mirage2000s) merge ( as you said, the Mirage 2000’s Fire control radar is on the“ACM” mode ), then what we can expect from the pilots next movement, an “ executes a max-g break to put the Mirage on his 3-9 line” ? the 1st fighter to do such a movement ( you assure the “veteran Israeli pilot would have done such) will only offer his opponent the Mirage2000 an open tail-on shot. You turn left 1st you die, you turn right 1st, you also die. The most common tactic is the fighter make the Immelmann turn and roll then be on your six. This is one of the most common and classic tactics shortly after a merge. You do this to prevent yourself from overshooting, and you not only put yourself behind the target, but above it. Thus your energy is conserved into altitude, and a superior position.
...The Greeks now gets pissed. Hence they manuever in with their Fire Control Radar on.
On the recieving end, the Israeli pilot, probably veteran of pissing of Arab neighbours, hears his Radar warning reciever go off. And instinctively executes a max-g break to put the Mirage on his 3-9 line. (Remember, in WVR combat, a radar lock is equivalent to a missile launch because IR guided missiles dun trigger off alerts to the RWR). He'd probably pop off some flares to be safe. PROBABLY.
If fighters are both going into an immelmann, the one with superior maneuvering is going to turn vertically inside you and have its nose pointed at your first, Yes, look again what did the account say: " The Greek Mirage 2K got inside its opponent's turn, closed in and launched a French Magic missile - a hit. The F-16 was destroyed." -
Turkish F16 as seen through the hud of a Greek Mirage 2000EGM, what turn was this F16 making?
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Again, one has to treat a lock on with a fire control radar equivalent to a IR shot fired. IF he doesnt execute a quick break, he would really stand a chance if a missile had already been fired. In war, this would not apply, but because its during peace time, u dun really know if the other guy really gonna shoot or not.Originally posted by 38�Ž:Well, with F16C/D’s much better radar, no doubt, when the Mirage 2000EGM incoming, the F16D would detect the Mirage2000EGM 1st, at least, the F16D would point the nose towards the in coming Mirage2000EGM, In another word, initially, both pairs are on a head on course, once the 2 pairs ( F16s & Mirage2000s) merge ( as you said, the Mirage 2000’s Fire control radar is on the“ACM” mode ), then what we can expect from the pilots next movement, an “ executes a max-g break to put the Mirage on his 3-9 line” ? the 1st fighter to do such a movement ( you assure the “veteran Israeli pilot would have done such) will only offer his opponent the Mirage2000 an open tail-on shot. You turn left 1st you die, you turn right 1st, you also die. The most common tactic is the fighter make the Immelmann turn and roll then be on your six. This is one of the most common and classic tactics shortly after a merge. You do this to prevent yourself from overshooting, and you not only put yourself behind the target, but above it. Thus your energy is conserved into altitude, and a superior position.
If fighters are both going into an immelmann, the one with superior maneuvering is going to turn vertically inside you and have its nose pointed at your first, Yes, look again what did the account say: " The Greek Mirage 2K got inside its opponent's turn, closed in and launched a French Magic missile - a hit. The F-16 was destroyed."
From the HUD, the MIRAGE2000 seems to be pulling a 5g lead turn @ 22 degree AOA to the right. THe range is close enough for guns. F-16 is probably pulling a bit more gs, pulling up a little, perhaps attempting to increase closure rate to generate an overshoot. High-G Yoyo.
I'm not familiar with the Mirage 2000 HUD symbology, but it looks like the distance btween them is mostly 1250 ft, with Mirage 2000 at a closure rate of 40knots. Mirage is making 283 knots, so F-16 should be about 243 knots... but since the Mirage is approaching at this angle, i would guess that both aircraft are about the same airspeed. 280 knots is not the F-16s corner airspeed, which means it can't make turns as sharply there. The Guns symbology is similar to the F-16's snapshoot line though.
It still doesn't really tell us much about the situation or the set up. This probably shows the endgame... any other shots?
They could have been turning around for a while before this occured which might explain why the F-16 is at such below optimal dogfight speed.
About the Immelman, I don't see how it would help by pulling up n turning, and potentially losing eye-contact with the bandit. If indeed its head on approach, u're gonna die anyways cos the'd just launch at u pulling up, while you're losing airspeed. You simply don't dodge bullets by losing airspeed.
IF the F-16 was the one that initiated the fight, I would think He'd put the Mirage 30 degrees laterally off his nose... and opt for a 1 circle fight since the Mirage was equipped with an all-aspect missile. This would make it a little bit harder for the Mirage to get good launch perimeters. This HUD shot does look like it was taken after a half-assed attempt at a 1 circle fight by the F-16. Any gun cam videos for a clearer picture?
No air to ground ordinance that would suggest that the F-16 was heavily ladened and could not out manuever. Then again, if any, they should have been jettisoned. In fact, I don't even see sidewinders on the F-16...
Finally, we don't know if the F-16s TURNED towards the Mirage 2000s after seeing them pop up on the RWR. That is a rather aggressive action to take in international airspace... Its better to just ignore and plod along being escorted out rather than get into a dogfight.
PS. Anyone familiar with Mirage 2000 symbologies? -
Originally posted by Shotgun:
the truth is that the F16D is not the 1st Turkish F16 being shot down as well as not the last one.
Again, one has to treat a lock on with a fire control radar equivalent to a IR shot fired. IF he doesnt execute a quick break, he would really stand a chance if a missile had already been fired. In war, this would not apply, but because its during peace time, u dun really know if the other guy really gonna shoot or not.From the HUD, the MIRAGE2000 seems to be pulling a 5g lead turn @ 22 degree AOA to the right. THe range is close enough for guns. F-16 is probably pulling a bit more gs, pulling up a little, perhaps attempting to increase closure rate to generate an overshoot. High-G Yoyo.
Sorry, forgot to mention in more details, that F16 inside the HUD view is NOT the F16D currently we are discussing but another F16C victim of the Mirage 2000EGM---the 1st blk product of Mirage 2000 series.About the Immelman, I don't see how it would help by pulling up n turning, and potentially losing eye-contact with the bandit. If indeed its head on approach, u're gonna die anyways cos the'd just launch at u pulling up, while you're losing airspeed. You simply don't dodge bullets by losing airspeed.
Well, if you don't have this in mind that the single most import factor of the WVR air combat is the “ENERGY”, then I don’t think we can set up a measurable discussion at all.
An eye contact is that essential when u r in a merge with bandits and pretty sure their IR AAM has launched towards you? The other thing a pilot won’t delay to do in such situation is pulling out his bird from the reach of the AAM. And by which means? High G maneuver. In an assumed co-altitude/co-energy merge, it’s obvious the 1st fighter makes the horizontal separation( turn left or right) will be in great disadvantage because you inevitable will explore your hot a$$ 1st to your opponent and receive a warm tailor-on shot. You dive, better still. Your opponent will catch the altitude advantage and in a down –shoot position, his AAM will gain energy while dashing down.
So the option left is you pulling up an option you so hard to accept but quite a common practice of many merge encountering. You only look at it’s losing the speed but never notice that you are gaining the altitude and better angle to the off boresight of the opponent plane, and at the last, you can settle behind the bandit and above it if you like . As I said you maneuver because you want to escape the AAM and gain the position behind the opponent fighter. When the time u pull up and roll, the AAM tracking ur fighter also has to do the same. Depend on which one bleed energy fast and exhaust 1st. because you make the Immelman 1st, you got the “ lead turn”, if unluckily the AAM’s inertia makes the AAM passed your jet then the part of the AAM’s energy inherent from its launching fighter will become negative, which means the AAM has actually use its limited energy to overcome its energy inherent from the inertia before purely used to catch you. Another disadvantage of the IR AAM is its seeker, the seeker always has to face your hottest spot and then determine the missile’s next move, don’t like the radar guided AAM, why so significant? Because you know, when your fighter in high G, the plane’s hottest A$$ will always some times to the left, some times to the right, sometimes up, some times down while the fighter’s nose will relatively not move such widely. Because the seeker always intend to follow your jet’s hottest part, then the AAM most likely will travel in “S” sharp while you plane just do smooth curve of Immelman. Which one bleed energy faster? The 1 with loop plus S sharp cat walk or the 1 just do the smooth loop? Remember, the more G, the more energy you will lose. The more energy your opponent tend to lose, the more chance you win