SAR 21 Twin Brother
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TAR-21
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http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tavor
haha i guess the grenade launcher and carbine version should be coming out soon
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Evil twin.
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whats new ? bullpup ma
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Basically its a SAR-21 optimised for close range/urban combat (red-dot scope and shorter barrel) without all the Kiasi-ness safety features, the stupid auto-fire selector, and the funky plastic mag :P
They already have carbine versions, and I guess, GL versions as well.
I'm abit surprised at this though: "Royal Thailand Armed Forces purchased 15,000 Tavor rifles." O_O
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What kiasi-ness safety features? The kevlar plate? Not too sure about that but I rem they did a Aug vs SAR chamber explosion test. The Aug's lower reciever group went into pieces of polymer that would have seriously injured the user while the SAR survived it intact. Bullpups are dangerous in chamber explosions because the explosion takes place right next to the user's head, so I think it's a good thing to have some safety features in any new Bullpup design.
In pratice is has already saved some people from injury. Some joker left his cleaning rod in a faulty SAR and fired it, he only suffered superfical burns to his cheek from the chamber explosion.
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By 2005, IMI had supplied 350-400 TAR-21s to India's northern Special Frontier Force (SFF). These were declared to be 'operationally unsatisfactory,' however, due to problems with their folding stock; meanwhile, Israeli units like the Galatz were voicing complaints of their own. The required changes appear to have been made, and the Tavor now looks set to enter operational service within a couple of months - even as India gears up for a larger competition that could feature a 9mm Tavor version
ok - SAR 21 is better
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SAR21 is so fat and heavy. I wont consider TAR as a twin. More like a younger brother.
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Thai(according to thai forumners) also using SAR-21 what...indons as well.
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Originally posted by SingaporeTyrannosaur:
What kiasi-ness safety features? The kevlar plate? Not too sure about that but I rem they did a Aug vs SAR chamber explosion test. The Aug's lower reciever group went into pieces of polymer that would have seriously injured the user while the SAR survived it intact. Bullpups are dangerous in chamber explosions because the explosion takes place right next to the user's head, so I think it's a good thing to have some safety features in any new Bullpup design.
In pratice is has already saved some people from injury. Some joker left his cleaning rod in a faulty SAR and fired it, he only suffered superfical burns to his cheek from the chamber explosion.
Very true-- I was just making the point that the Israeli's have more to fear from a Hezbollah sniper than a chamber explosion, so they decided not to include the safety feature. Possibly they wanted to make it ambidextrous as well and the Kevlar plate would prevent that.
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There's the Indian and the South American one...
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Twin Brother?
What is the uniquness of this??
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Thai(according to thai forumners) also using SAR-21 what...indons as well.
Hi....
How true is the above quote
I know ST sells alot of small Arms to other countries..... even New Assult Rife (SAR-21)
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Originally posted by lionnoisy:
Twin Brother?
What is the uniquness of this??
It is lighter, and has a more advanced sighting system as well as being fully ambidextrous.Also it was released slightly eariler then the SAR 21.
In addition, for a new entry into the oversaturated arms market, it has also performed pretty well:
Foreign service
ColombiaThe Military of Colombia operates the TAR-21 for their special forces.
GeorgiaSince 2006 the Military of Georgia have entered into a $65 million supply agreement for approximately 7000 TAR-21 rifles (including different variants and grenade launchers). These guns are designated to replace the AK-74 derivatives that are currently in use by 7,850 special forces personnel. Officials report that 1,300 rifles have already been shipped.
GuatemalaGuatemala's police force or PNC (Policia Nacional Civil) operates the TAR-21 for routine tasks, and some special forces operations. [1]
IndiaIn late 2002, India signed an Rs. 880 million (about $20 million) deal with Israel Military Industries for 3,070 TAR-21 Tavor assault rifles to be issued to India's special forces personnel, where its ergonomics, reliability in heat and sand, and fast-point/fast-shoot design might give them an edge at close-quarters and employment from inside vehicles.
By 2005, IMI had supplied 350-400 TAR-21s to India's northern Special Frontier Force (SFF). These were declared to be 'operationally unsatisfactory,' however, due to problems with their folding stock; meanwhile, Israeli units like the Galatz were voicing complaints of their own. The required changes appear to have been made, and the Tavor now looks set to enter operational service within a couple of months - even as India gears up for a larger competition that could feature a 9mm Tavor version.[citation needed]
Tests in Israel during 2006 went well, clearing the contracted consignment for delivery. The new TAR-21s will have a modified single-piece stock and new sights, as well as Turkish-made MKEK T-40 40mm under-barrel grenade launchers (UBGLs). Singapore Technologies will supply the 5.56mm ammunition. [2]
PortugalSmall quantities of the Tavor are also in use by the Portuguese Polícia Judiciária's special operation groups. The TAR-21 also participated in Portugal's competition for its new assault rifle for all the Portuguese armed forces and the Police Special Operations Group — a bid that also included the local production of the Tavor in Portugal. However, the Tavor was excluded from the shortlist. The competition was meanwhile been replaced by another one, after both political and defense critics accused the competition of favoring the Heckler & Koch G36.[citation needed]
ThailandRoyal Thailand Armed Forces purchased 15,000 Tavor rifles.
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tavor with indian troops in kashmir
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What is the best way to carry TAR while u run for your life?
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Originally posted by SingaporeTyrannosaur:
It is lighter, and has a more advanced sighting system as well as being fully ambidextrous.Also it was released slightly eariler then the SAR 21.
In addition, for a new entry into the oversaturated arms market, it has also performed pretty well:
1.how advanced is the sight as compared with SAR (1.5 x optical scope and laser-aiming device)?
2.SAR also ambidextrous.
3..SAR is very friendly for carry with the handle by ONE hand while running .
How do u carry TAR while u run for your life?i think u need both hands if u run with TAR.
4.do u think the barrel guard of SAR 21 is better?
SAR 21
http://www.stengg.com/CoyCapPro/detail.aspx?pdid=133
http://www.enemyforces.com/firearms/tavor.htm
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Actually, I would prefer the SAR-21.
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TAR-21 is a strong competitor to our SAR-21 in the bull-pup market. How is our SAR-21 sales compared to the TAR-21?
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I find the hand guard of the sar21 to thick and big for my hands. So I will place my hand in front of the triger guard .
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Originally posted by lionnoisy:
1.how advanced is the sight as compared with SAR (1.5 x optical scope and laser-aiming device)?
2.SAR also ambidextrous.
3..SAR is very friendly for carry with the handle by ONE hand while running .
How do u carry TAR while u run for your life?i think u need both hands if u run with TAR.
4.do u think the barrel guard of SAR 21 is better?
SAR 21
http://www.stengg.com/CoyCapPro/detail.aspx?pdid=133
http://www.enemyforces.com/firearms/tavor.htm
Another example of you not knowing what you are talking about.
1. Don't kid yourself, there's no way our 1.5x and LAD package works out to the ITL MARS that comes basic to the system of the TAR21, which is both a reflex aiming sight PLUS a laser sight. The 1.5x scope is a compromise between an open-sighted system and a telescopic sighting system, not bad but you can't beat the target engagement times of a reflex aiming system. The TAR user will aquire and shoot his targets faster then the chap using the SAR basic 1.5x, but it can be argued that the SAR is better for shooting at range.
BTW, the SAR does come in variants that come with the ITL MARS and similar systems... but unit cost will obviously rise.
2. The SAR is not truly ambidexterous in the sense of the TAR-21. While it was can be shot left handed when need be, you will be badly injured or possibly killed if the rifle experiences a chamber failure due to the blast being directed rightwards from the safety plate. This is why in the SAF we are all trained to shoot right handed with the SAR, which moots the whole "ambidexterous" thing.
3. You obviously never ran or trained with the SAR before (or any other rifle i suspect)... carrying by the scope handle and running in battle is suicide because your finger is not on the trigger to respond to any threats. In fact we never handle the SAR by its handle in any combat situtation, even running (unless you really CMI in SOC)... your finger must be near the trigger. I'd like to see you "running for your life" by carrying the SAR via the scope and then turning the corner to run into an enemy, and realizing that you need to switch grip to get your hand back on the trigger...
Please, you "run for your life" holding the rifle by its pistol grip... and in fact it's the way it should be that way.
In combat we carry the SAR via its pistol grip, NOT the scope... which is the way you would carry the TAR as well. You don't do fire and movement carrying the SAR by the scope handle, that's just dumb.
And BTW I wager the TAR is easier to handle one-handed because its a kilo lighter... and its designed to be shot one-handed (so is the SAR).
4. What's so good about the barrel guard of the SAR? I've tried it, it's just another barrel guard. And if you note the removed it entirely in some of the other more "advanced" variants... what's so great about it?
Objectively speaking, ST did not aim to make a better rifle then then TAR... they were making a cost effective solution for the SAF that provided the SAF conscript grunt with advanced abilities over the M-16 but at an affordable cost as well. The TAR is more no-holds-barred in its solution to the infantry rifle with its expensive advanced sighting systems. The extra weight of the SAR comes from the additional traditional barrel length and more conventional build, but its still a decent piece of kit that I know won't let me down in battle, and of course I've learnt to make full use of the weapon by learning to use the backup pistol sights at close range instead of the scope (quicker target engagement time) as well as shooting with both eyes open through the scope, but all these things are done naturally with a reflex system like the MARS. But I apperciate don't mind the additional length.
But good luck trying to paint the SAR as "better" then the TAR. Both are unique weapons system that reflect the needs of their individual arms manufacturers. If I go into battle with the SAR or TAR depends on the situtation. But once again, you're are trying one of your "Bionix is better then M1A2 Abrams" or "Mandai UAF is equal to Cheyenne mountain" arguments without even knowing the facts. This is quite laughable.
Seriously lionnoisy... you haven't answered this question all the time you have been here. What did you serve as for your NS?
Did you even serve at all?
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Originally posted by lionnoisy:
What is the best way to carry TAR while u run for your life?
Why do you keep wanting to run for your life?BTW, as I said, no sane soldier in combat runs carrying the rifle by the non-trigger carrying grip.
That's akin to making yourself defenceless and useless in battle, the enemy loves such a target.
Once again...
What did you serve as for your NS?
Did you even serve at all?
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3. You obviously never ran or trained with the SAR before (or any other rifle i suspect)... carrying by the scope handle and running in battle is suicide because your finger is not on the trigger to respond to any threats. In fact we never handle the SAR by its handle in any combat situtation, even running (unless you really CMI in SOC)... your finger must be near the trigger. I'd like to see you "running for your life" by carrying the SAR via the scope and then turning the corner to run into an enemy, and realizing that you need to switch grip to get your hand back on the trigger...
Please, you "run for your life" holding the rifle by its pistol grip... and in fact it's the way it should be that way.
In combat we carry the SAR via its pistol grip, NOT the scope... which is the way you would carry the TAR as well. You don't do fire and movement carrying the SAR by the scope handle, that's just dumb.
And BTW I wager the TAR is easier to handle one-handed because its a kilo lighter... and its designed to be shot one-handed (so is the SAR).
John Wayne did it...i bet lion thought it looks cool holding rifle by its handle....he probably wet dream being a John Wayne....strolling casually on the battle front...with his SAR21 .....
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3..SAR is very friendly for carry with the handle by ONE hand while running .
How do u carry TAR while u run for your life?i think u need both hands if u run with TAR.
I know that lionnoisy's "running for your life" point is already quite dead, but here's to flog a dead lion further...
If the "very friendly for carry with the handle by ONE hand while running" was such an important feature, why did ST in all its wisdom, exclude this feature from the more advanced variants of the SAR?
SAR-21 P-rail
SAR lightweight carbine
Note even our Advanced Combat Man system (our conceptual equal of Land Warrior), supposedly the next step in our infantry development... uses a variant of the SAR that does not have the run-for-your-life-easy-to-carry-handle!
Why is this so?
As the most BMT-recruit can tell you, no soldier carries his rifle in combat in this way, it is plain stupidity and will get you and your buddies killed.
It seems the only reason why lionnoisy thinks this is an important feature seems to be that most of his battle tatics involve him "running for his life"
Once again, lionnoisy pwnage!
Poor lionnoisy, got hunted and pwned again... he should really learn to pick his fights properly.
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I will pick the TAR21 with its much lighter weight & excellent optics anytime over the SAR21.
If only lions can shoot back with an AK47, there surely will be more lions in our midst.
