Side-arm for the Infantry man
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If you're forced to carry a sidearm in addition to the standard issue rifle, why not go the whole nine yards and tote one of these:
(And in case you're wondering, yes, CZ does manufacture that bayonet attachment that mounts onto the standard accessory rail of their CZ 75-based pistols.
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Originally posted by Sepecat:
Carrying extra 5.56 ammo does not do you any good when your primary weapon fails. Thats why the side arm is called the back up weapon. It beats having to use your rifle as a club.
A Glock 19 weighs 850g loaded with 15 rounds.
A side-arm would be better for folks like pilots, who have to protect themselves if they get shot down in hostile territory. For infantries, it would be an extra burden. -
In a warzone, I will definitely want to carry as much 5.56 ammo as I can carry. But I will also carry a sidearm as added insurance.
Carrying a sidearm does not seem to be a burden for US front line troops now fighting in Iraq and Afghanistan - unless they think they can trust their lives on an M4 to work 100 % of the time. I believe that even our own troopers carried the SIG226 when in Timor Leste.
Pilots have no good alternative other than a side arm to protect themselves when shot down.
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Originally posted by Sepecat:
In a warzone, I will definitely want to carry as much 5.56 ammo as I can carry. But I will also carry a sidearm as added insurance.
Carrying a sidearm does not seem to be a burden for US front line troops now fighting in Iraq and Afghanistan - unless they think they can trust their lives on an M4 to work 100 % of the time. I believe that even our own troopers carried the SIG226 when in Timor Leste.
Pilots have no good alternative other than a side arm to protect themselves when shot down.
A good soldier must know how to maintenance his rifle and proper usage. Important is also knowning not to abuse your rifle.
The mindset of blaming the rifle for not "soldier proof" due to rough handing, fault is still with the user for putting his rifle in that position.If someone manage to shoot or grenade thrown at you and hit your rifle? Again isn't that your fault for exposing yourself wrongly, poor fire movement & poor soldier skill.
If you get shot in one arm or hand that make it impossible to work your rifle, you would also be in no position to handle your pistol. If you know about pistol well, you would know that.To you it does not seem a burden to frontline troops in iraq or Afghanistan . Is that the true picture ? Most of those troops with sidearms, are special forces, airborne , rangers, SAS, commandos .... those are special train soldiers which are more physically fit, thus extra weight may not burden them like normal soldiers.
We also have to consider asia soldiers are smaller size then western counter part. Note we are talking about side-arm for infantry - which is foot soldiers not special forces or commandos.
Hell we have so many soldiers already getting heat stroke and other issues. Frankly adding a extra weapon may kill them before they even reach the battle field. Think there be more cases of pistol accidently shooting ownself or other friendiness then cases of pistol saving one life. -
Originally posted by Sepecat:
In a warzone, I will definitely want to carry as much 5.56 ammo as I can carry. But I will also carry a sidearm as added insurance.
Carrying a sidearm does not seem to be a burden for US front line troops now fighting in Iraq and Afghanistan - unless they think they can trust their lives on an M4 to work 100 % of the time. I believe that even our own troopers carried the SIG226 when in Timor Leste.
Pilots have no good alternative other than a side arm to protect themselves when shot down.
Please show me picture of own troopers carring P226 in timor leste ?
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Personally I have no issue with carrying a sidearm, you don't need to haul a lot of ammo for it, one or two extra clips would be good in a pinch. I don't think our soldiers will suffer a big performance drop from it, if that was the concern I remember there was some talk in here about how body armour was useless because it added weight, and that's a lot of extra weight.
Ultimately there's no right or wrong, it depends on what you want, but I don't think our average soldier is so weak that he can't haul an extra pistol.
If you are really iffy about weight then go get a compact pistol, that should put your mind at ease.
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If you get shot in one arm or hand that make it impossible to work your rifle, you would also be in no position to handle your pistol. If you know about pistol well, you would know that.
Erm, wrong. You can't adopt a two handed stance for your pistol but you still can fire it one handed, and with a lot more sucess then trying to shoot your rifle one handed.
In any case the value of a sidearm has been well known in history, the trusty Colt .45 was a staple of the American G.I. and this was considering he had to lug an battle rifle that is a lot heavier then our current assualt rifles.
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CPW can help u play trick
If you are surrounded ,u can pretend surrender by giving up your rifle.
When the enemy come close to search you (hopefully they will not
shoot u first),then u can spray them with CPW in one go!!
30 rounds is very harmful,if u still have so much ammo!!
Of course,u have hide your CPW nicely!!
Barring the fact that it is extremely difficult to hide something like a CPW properly and then yet be able to take it out easily, doing such a thing is also considered a war crime under the Geneva conventions, something that you can be hung for.
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To Storywolf
o good soldier must know how to maintenance his rifle and proper usage. Important is also knowning not to abuse your rifle.
The mindset of blaming the rifle for not "soldier proof" due to rough handing, fault is still with the user for putting his rifle in that position.Please do not put words in my mouth & read each word I posted carefully.
You just made yourself the perfect example of what I said of a person with a ”peacetime and training mindset….” by stating in the above paragraph about weapons failure due to maintenance , improper usage etc.
I said that the above is only one factor, while the other is when your primary weapon is disabled for another reason.
If someone manage to shoot or grenade thrown at you and hit your rifle? Again isn't that your fault for exposing yourself wrongly, poor fire movement & poor soldier skill.
Hey, wake up !! The best soldiers in the world also get shot and killed.
If you get shot in one arm or hand that make it impossible to work your
rifle you would also be in no position to handle your pistol. If you know
about pistol well, you would know that.
There are many real war accounts of soldiers being wounded in an arm or hand & being able to fend off or kill attackers using a pistol using one hand
And sorry, but I know about pistols because I fire them. I can assure you that you only require one hand !
To you it does not seem a burden to frontline troops in iraq or Afghanistan . Is that the true picture ? Most of those troops with sidearms, are special forces, airborne , rangers, SAS, commandos .... those are special train soldiers which are more physically fit, thus extra weight may not burden them like normal soldiers.
That’s your peacetime mindset setting in again.
In a real war, an enemy bullet does not distinguish between special forces or normal infantry. As an infantryman you better be fit to carry extra ammo & for me a sidearm too to ensure that when I have a primary weapons failure I will be able to shoot my attacker even at point blank using a pistol strapped to my leg.
We also have to consider asia soldiers are smaller size then western counter part. Note we are talking about side-arm for infantry - which is foot soldiers not special forces or commandos.
Nobody is forcing you to carry a side arm. But please don’t borrow mine when you come face to face with an attacker charging at you with a bayonet and you happen to have an urgent need to perform IA.
Hell we have so many soldiers already getting heat stroke and other issues. Frankly adding a extra weapon may kill them before they even reach the battle field. Think there be more cases of pistol accidently shooting ownself or other friendiness then cases of pistol saving one life.This is the thinking of a switched off soldier & also you are clearly speaking for yourself. You definitely did not go to the Army ; didn’t the Army teach you how to avoid heatstroke , not to accidently discharge weapons, train you to be fighting fit etc ?????
Originally posted by Sepecat:
o show Please show me picture of own troopers carring P226 in timor leste ?
Read carefully - I said “ I believe that even our own troopers carried the SIG226 when in Timor Leste” . Ask Touchstone2000 for the picture as he mentioned it.
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in a war, probably there should be a few spare rifles left over by their previous owners who have gone to meet their maker...
in the event of IA, just grab someone's else rifle and start firing... yeah, it's not zeroed, but it's better than nothing..
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If your primary weapon is beyond repair, clearly use whatever is at hand.
But , the rationale for the backup sidearm is that you can use it instantly when the situation arises.
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Originally posted by the Bear:
That's a very impressive baseball bat!
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to Sepecat :
"peacetime & training mindset"?
Great if base on your theory just blame unusable rifles or stoppages all to war !Wake up Best Soldiers in the world also get shot and killed ?
You choose to talk about those that got killed , why not talk about those that live think more survive then those killed.Many real war accounts of soldiers being wounded in an arm & still able to ...... ? Yeap some are, other don't ... those who survive can tell their verison. Why don't you tell a few of those which soldier shot still able to use their primary weapons.
Most of those troops with sidearms, are special forces, airborne , rangers, SAS, commandos .... because in most army they have extra budgets to issue sidearms and are train to use them.
The point is simple - they are issue and train with sidearms, other ordinary soldiers are usually not this is fact not mindset. Yes an enemy bullet does not distinguish between special forces or normal infantry. But then why you call those folk special forces ? You call them that because they are fitter, better train & better equipped, that why they are issue with extra side-arms when a lot of ordinary soldiers are not.
Didn’t the Army teach you how to avoid heatstroke, not to accidently discharge weapons, train you to be fighting fit?
Based on the last few years of casualties in the army and funny videos posted on youtube - obviously you may have learn, but not a lot of others.
You said “ I believe that even our own troopers carried the SIG226 when in Timor Leste”.
Ok i got you - we believe we have gundams too !!! -
Dear Storywolf,
Firstly , I wish that you keep your story telling to yourself.
You are not expressing yourself clearly in your first lline. What are you trying to tell us ? Anyway , note that switched on soldiers always go to war with usable rifles. Switched off soldiers like you with your peacetime mindset cant tell the diff between a usable & unusable rifle
Exactly right, the ones who live are the ones carryingthe side arms & living to tell the tale because the side arms saved them .
To be continued.............
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Dear Storywolf,
So SAF is not the Army with the extra budget ???
You must be one of those fellas in the funny videos. See what I mean, only switched off ones with the playful peacetime mindsets end up with the heat stroke, perform accidental discharges ( firearm type ) etc
YOU believe that SAF have gundams !!!??????!! Awesome boy !!
Pssst... my advise to you is to try to get some help boy...
with switched off guys like you ... better to leave the important task of soldiering to the switched on guys. Do join the Drama troop & make everyone laugh with your storytelling.
Best of luck boy !
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Please explain the recent army deaths in peacetime !!!
Do not twist my words. If you believe ordinary troops carry p226 in Timor Leste - it is like believing we have gundams - you dodo !!!
get some help yourself !!!
I am just pointing out another view - which sidearm is not needed for the ordinary troops !!! Since you are not professionally mature enough to accept that, that your problem.
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If you read the account of the marines who stormed the House from Hell in Fallujah, you'll realize that the sidearm played an important role in the battle. And these were not special forces, but ordinary marines.
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Deputy Prime Minister and Minister for Defence Teo Chee Hean greets (from left) MAJ Jackson Wu, MAJ Collins Pang and LTC Percival Goh during his meeting with SAF troops deployed in Afghanistan.
Mr Teo meeting members of the WLR team deployed in Tarin Kowt, Oruzgan.
MAJ Vincent Koh, detachment commander of the SAF Weapon Locating Radar (WLR) team, updating Mr Teo on the team's operations. Behind them is one of the two WLRs deployed in Tarin Kowt, Oruzgan.
Thanks to bidique on MP.net and http://www.mindef.gov.sg/imindef/news_and_events/nr/2009/nov/09nov09_nr.html
Check out the two straps on nearly everyone's thigh. They are not even high speed guys.
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Please explain the recent army deaths in peacetime !!!
Do not twist my words. If you believe ordinary troops carry p226 in Timor Leste - it is like believing we have gundams - you dodo !!!
get some help yourself !!!
I am just pointing out another view - which sidearm is not needed for the ordinary troops !!! Since you are not professionally mature enough to accept that, that your problem.
Dear Sorrywolf,
See what our SAF non special forces in a WAR ZONE have strapped to their legs.
Kindly be mature enough to accept that you are 100 % wrong with your peacetime mindset.
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Originally posted by Sepecat:
Unfortunately, there is a peacetime and training mindset among us all & when we think primary weapon failure, we think mechanical failure due to poor maintenance , proper usage etc. The words "soldier proof" reminds us that weapons must be designed to take on the abuse in real war situation & weapons failure will be due to this factor, but not this factor alone.
Primary weapons failure also occurs when one gets shot at, which jhappens quite often when you are in a war zone. A grenade fragment or AK47 round may displace or damage your rifle. One may also get shot in one arm or hand which makes it impossible to work your rifle or conduct IA. In the meantime you are faced with the enemy 10 feet away. The only option is a quick draw with a pistol & squeezing off a few rounds at 10 feet. 15 rounds of 9mm is better than 0 rounds of 5.56mm.
Armies & soldiers who have real war experience are issue sidearms ( when their budgets are big enough to issue their combat front line troops in the warzone with them ) because primary weapons failure is a life & death issue exemplifiedby the close quarter urban battles experienced in Iraq & Afghanistan.
In a warzone, I will carry that extra 850g or 1 kg seal my enemies fate rather than mine.
Absolutely!
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I think there's been a lot of over-dramatization over the need for a pistol sidearm in this discussion.
Although I'm in favor of one, it is really just an extra-useful thing to carry around.
I think the prospect of SAF issuing a sidearm at the current moment is probably close to nil. Mainly because the budget is needed elsewhere where there are bigger fish to fry.
From the organizational perspective, does issuing every infantryman with a sidearm contribute to solving the FIBUA / MOUT problem? I think the contribution is negligible.
Instead, money could be channeled into getting more of those little surveillance grenade/balls (whatever they're called), Dragonskin ( i wish ), and neat little RC toys. It seems that doctrinal development is moving towards the direction of "3G", where the pistol's contribution is slight marginalized.
To start issuing infantrymen with pistols would require those guys at Mindef/Army to come up with some really interesting doctrine. At this moment, I can't really imagine what they would be.
Sidenote: Our Police Force officers sent to East Timor will be armed with a pistol... I believe its a Glock...
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Where small arms is concerned , the most pressing need the SAF has to address at this moment is to channel some funds for decent night sights for all SAR 21s.
The SAR 21 also needs to shed some weight ; less 1/2 kg will be great.
SAF can do also with much better sighting equipment and more lethal ammo for M203s.
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I agree, it's too much drama over such a mundane issue. I almost loled when I saw storywolf trying to imply that carrying an extra pistol will cause extra training deaths in the SAF... seriously, come on... let me get this straight... storywolf is an officer during NS? What is happening to our screening process?
Anyway unless storywolf wants to argue the SAF is making a big mistake or the pictures are photoshopped, this "argument" is pretty much over, the fact it started at all shows the inability of some not to make a mountain out of a molehill.
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given a choice, i wont want a sidearm
chances are u will drop it than use it.
then ganna charge
LOL