SMRT Buses purchases MAN A22 buses (Part 2)
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3 door... mmm... rear engine bus wo
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Originally posted by sbst275:
3 door… mmm…
rear engine bus wo
I heard that the current chasis have a 3rd door space, true? ;o However, it's on the other side.
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once you've a rear engine design... that third door access will have its own problems even if it's workable.. i.e. steps la, or a 1/2 width door etc...
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3-door design is more common in Europe, and I think it is good if it encourages people to move to the back.
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There IS a low-floor RHD citybus chassis that is capable of fitting a 3rd door to it without any steps. I'm sure some of you can guess what this is.
And no, the image is not inverted. The engine is indeed on the right side. It is however, rather expensive.
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2nd door can design super wide
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Originally posted by Bus Stopping:
There IS a low-floor RHD citybus chassis that is capable of fitting a 3rd door to it without any steps. I'm sure some of you can guess what this is.
And no, the image is not inverted. The engine is indeed on the right side. It is however, rather expensive.
Wright Borismaster?
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why is everyone saying that full low floor buses from entrance to exit to third door are unworkable?
tamago is right in saying that 3 door buses are common in europe. heck, some cities even mandate that city buses have to have at least 3 doors.
12m citaros, scania omnicities and MANs in stockholm, copenhagen, germany all have full low floor, 3 door configurations from entrance to exit.
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I hope both the operators would go for 3-door buses, at least people is assured that they themselves are near to a exit, and they won't have to trouble people by squeezing through. They tend to have this "fear" of unable to alight..
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Originally posted by supremebull:
why is everyone saying that full low floor buses from entrance to exit to third door are unworkable?
tamago is right in saying that 3 door buses are common in europe. heck, some cities even mandate that city buses have to have at least 3 doors.
12m citaros, scania omnicities and MANs in stockholm, copenhagen, germany all have full low floor, 3 door configurations from entrance to exit.
It is unworkable, because all of the major european manufacturers which we buy buses from have built a chassis with the engine block on the left which is their offside in europe (except uk and some minority).
Since the engine is on the left, the right side is emptied out and gives place for a 3rd door.
Unfortunately, our roads are on the other side, and they dont produce a "flipped" version of the chassis just for RHD market because the demand is not going to be high (count the RHD countries who needs a premium low floor SD chassis with a 3rd door). Most RHD countries would rather take up DDs instead.
This is the exact same reason why UK has not been able to have buses with a 3rd door, until recently.
Look at the A22 chassis and the location of the engine block. How are you going to install a 3rd door there?
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Originally posted by Bus Stopping:
It is unworkable, because all of the major european manufacturers which we buy buses from have built a chassis with the engine block on the left which is their offside in europe (except uk and some minority).
Since the engine is on the left, the right side is emptied out and gives place for a 3rd door.
Unfortunately, our roads are on the other side, and they dont produce a "flipped" version of the chassis just for RHD market because the demand is not going to be high (count the RHD countries who needs a premium low floor SD chassis with a 3rd door).
This is the exact same reason why UK has not been able to have buses with a 3rd door, until recently.
Look at the A22 chassis and the location of the engine block. How are you going to install a 3rd door there?
Hmm, so it's not possible for them to order a modified chassis??
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I wonder why do Mercedes still offer the Conecto for the Singapore market. Maybe MB can make a custom RHD version?
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Originally posted by SMB66X:
Hmm, so it's not possible for them to order a modified chassis??
Modifying a chassis to adopt RHD config is not impossible, but very tedious and expensive.
Imagine having the redesign the entire rear structure, including flipping around every single component from the radiator, turbocharger lines, fuel lines, air lines, gearbox, coolant tank and even the exhaust. All of this has been incrementally designed, improved, built and tested over many years for the LHD version. (E.g. developing from the O405 to O405N, O405N2, first gen Citaro, Citaro facelift, and finally Citaro C2 Euro 5 and Euro 6)
The redesign itself would also require the manufacturer to retest the completed chassis repeatedly on various conditions, and to ensure all components works properly. I am sure you all remember what happened with the London Citaros by putting the fuel lines too near to the turbo, even when they did this small configuration to RHD without shifting the engines at all.
It is probably even easier to rebuild a chassis from scratch if most parts cannot be reused.
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Originally posted by Bus Stopping:
Modifying a chassis to adopt RHD config is not impossible, but very tedious and expensive.
to my knowledge, these barriers have been overcome.
the remaining stumbling block is, as you've mentioned, the need for testing in varying climes.
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It is not unworkable, but the costs involved in trying to either invert the arrangement or shift components around to make it suitable for 3 door RHD operations will render such a move financially unwise for the manufacturers, especially when most of the world are using LHD. It is akin to having another chassis on its own.
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Originally posted by supremebull:
to my knowledge, these barriers have been overcome.
the remaining stumbling block is, as you've mentioned, the need for testing in varying climes.
Yes, the barriers have been overcomed, but only by 1 manufacturer and that is Wrightbus whose chassis has been pictured above in blue.
As TIB1234X has guessed, it is the NBFL, but extremely pricey at 700k SGD per unit (as of today) due to the custom design and R&D work it has gone through.
A typical A22 costs only 300k, and a B9TL DD 550k, so this is a rather steep amount for a bus, especially since our bus fares are so cheap compared to London (which the NBFL is used in). Unless the fares are doubled (making it on par with london), this will probably not be brought in by the operators in the near future.
Of course, feel free to share if there are any other RHD 12m low floor chassis that has the ability to install a 3rd door after the axles. It would be a great addition to the fleet here for use on routes where it has high passenger turnover.
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Originally posted by Bus Stopping:
Modifying a chassis to adopt RHD config is not impossible, but very tedious and expensive.
Imagine having the redesign the entire rear structure, including flipping around every single component from the radiator, turbocharger lines, fuel lines, air lines, gearbox, coolant tank and even the exhaust. All of this has been incrementally designed, improved, built and tested over many years for the LHD version. (E.g. developing from the O405 to O405N, O405N2, first gen Citaro, Citaro facelift, and finally Citaro C2 Euro 5 and Euro 6)
The redesign itself would also require the manufacturer to retest the completed chassis repeatedly on various conditions, and to ensure all components works properly. I am sure you all remember what happened with the London Citaros by putting the fuel lines too near to the turbo, even when they did this small configuration to RHD without shifting the engines at all.
It is probably even easier to rebuild a chassis from scratch if most parts cannot be reused.
Not to forget, developing a 3rd door means shifting of the parts to the right side near the fan... Weight distribution had to be balance as well... For that its also very tricky... One wrong placement, chassis will bend...
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Originally posted by Bus Stopping:
Yes, the barriers have been overcomed, but only by 1 manufacturer and that is Wrightbus whose chassis has been pictured above in blue.
As TIB1234X has guessed, it is the NBFL, but extremely pricey at 700k SGD per unit (as of today) due to the custom design and R&D work it has gone through.
A typical A22 costs only 300k, and a B9TL DD 550k, so this is a rather steep amount for a bus, especially since our bus fares are so cheap compared to London (which the NBFL is used in). Unless the fares are doubled (making it on par with london), this will probably not be brought in by the operators in the near future.
Of course, feel free to share if there are any other RHD 12m low floor chassis that has the ability to install a 3rd door after the axles. It would be a great addition to the fleet here for use on routes where it has high passenger turnover.
Wright Borismasters are also not for sales overseas, so its impossible to see Boris and the chassis in other countries... Although the Boris chassis are redeveloped, but the 2nd staircase are actually 'breaking the law and physics' rule, thats why they are only doing it only for the UKs...
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Originally posted by TIB1234T:
Wright Borismasters are also not for sales overseas, so its impossible to see Boris and the chassis in other countries... Although the Boris chassis are redeveloped, but the 2nd staircase are actually 'breaking the law and physics' rule, thats why they are only doing it only for the UKs...
Actually the 2nd staircase helps to speed up the boarding/alighting. With the up and down rules, People would be able to get on/off buses easily.
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Originally posted by TIB1234T:
Wright Borismasters are also not for sales overseas, so its impossible to see Boris and the chassis in other countries... Although the Boris chassis are redeveloped, but the 2nd staircase are actually 'breaking the law and physics' rule, thats why they are only doing it only for the UKs...
Borismaster is looking for an export market:
Writing in The Daily Telegraph last week, Mr Johnson said: “It is the embodiment of the point I often make, that investment in London boosts the rest of the UK economy, directly and indirectly. We have stimulated the very best of British technology, creating jobs in this country, and yes, we are now looking to potential export markets”.
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Originally posted by SMB66X:
Actually the 2nd staircase helps to speed up the boarding/alighting. With the up and down rules, People would be able to get on/off buses easily.
Yeah, but in the international rules, it breaks the law for the rear staircase unlike the 12.5M ADL E500 with 2 staircases in side by side which is alright... Like the 13.7M MAN A39, its 3 axles, 2 staircases and well layed out design, but it only serves within the country as well...
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Originally posted by sgbuses:
Borismaster is looking for an export market:
Writing in The Daily Telegraph last week, Mr Johnson said: “It is the embodiment of the point I often make, that investment in London boosts the rest of the UK economy, directly and indirectly. We have stimulated the very best of British technology, creating jobs in this country, and yes, we are now looking to potential export markets”.
Hmm... Maybe they had passed the 'hot' negotiation on the topic... See how it goes in the future...
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Originally posted by TIB1234T:
Yeah, but in the international rules, it breaks the law for the rear staircase unlike the 12.5M ADL E500 with 2 staircases in side by side which is alright... Like the 13.7M MAN A39, its 3 axles, 2 staircases and well layed out design, but it only serves within the country as well...
The issue is not with the staircase, but rather to do with leaving the rear platform doors open while the bus is moving. This is a "Health and Safety" issue even in the UK itself, which is why they have to deploy passenger assistants at the doors when they are open.
The doors could be configured to be controlled by the drivers instead of being left open for export versions, and this wont be a problem anymore. It still fulfils the job of having a 3rd door to get passengers to move in.
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Originally posted by Bus Stopping:
Yes, the barriers have been overcomed, but only by 1 manufacturer and that is Wrightbus whose chassis has been pictured above in blue.
As TIB1234X has guessed, it is the NBFL, but extremely pricey at 700k SGD per unit (as of today) due to the custom design and R&D work it has gone through.
A typical A22 costs only 300k, and a B9TL DD 550k, so this is a rather steep amount for a bus, especially since our bus fares are so cheap compared to London (which the NBFL is used in). Unless the fares are doubled (making it on par with london), this will probably not be brought in by the operators in the near future.
Of course, feel free to share if there are any other RHD 12m low floor chassis that has the ability to install a 3rd door after the axles. It would be a great addition to the fleet here for use on routes where it has high passenger turnover.
That is half the story.
The NBFL is a hybrid bus.
As far as costs are concerned, this IS the going price for hybrid DDs in fact, albeit still slightly more.
In fact the main reason why the cost went up was probably because only one manufacturer is creating the bus to fit the specs.
Think market power.
This is the main reason why each bus type SBST purchases tends to have differing gearboxes, bodies, etc. It is part of procurement strategy to prevent OEMs from gaining too much leverage.
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Originally posted by SBS2601D:
That is half the story.
The NBFL is a hybrid bus.
As far as costs are concerned, this IS the going price for hybrid DDs in fact, albeit still slightly more.
In fact the main reason why the cost went up was probably because only one manufacturer is creating the bus to fit the specs.
Think market power.
This is the main reason why each bus type SBST purchases tends to have differing gearboxes, bodies, etc. It is part of procurement strategy to prevent OEMs from gaining too much leverage.
Regardless of NBfL being a hybrid bus or not, it is still by far the only production RHD chassis till date in the world to be able to accomodate a 3rd door without steps.
Remember that we are not trying to buy a hybrid DD, but rather a RHD low floor bus that has a door after the rear axle. The fact is that the NBfL is still the only production ready example around and it costs 700k.
They could get one of the chinese bus makers to design and make one cheaply based on pure diesel tech. But till then, the price difference of a bus with that door and without is just too big. This is the point i'm trying to bring across.
However, i agree with you that for hybrid DDs, it is not expensive at all to pay 700k although it is still 10% more than competing hybrid DDs. This 10% gives you 1. airconditioning, 2. 3rd rear door, 3. very customisable design, which is well worth the money.
As for procurement strategy, i find it not so valid on our public operators' case, since it is tender based instead of by quotation. Also, it is also a double edged sword to take up too much different bodyworks and chassis since it would be a maintanence headache (look at tibs who simply went too far on this).