Ex-CHC cell group leader quits CHC and tells all
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As an atheist, I hope Kong Hee's case has made people realise how delusional today religion is. And it is as true as what has been already said, that people believe in religion to appease themselves. No matter if it be a fairy tale or a funky delusion, if it lost the respective religion ideal sense of goodness to their doers, it just becomes a selfish spirtuality (oops, i should say selfish delusion that you impose indirectly or directly to others ahaha). Of course, this matter of corruption become investigated due to some within CHC feel discomforted about it. Yet majority of CHC jumped into support for Kong Hee. Creative missionary has been in christianity circle before charismatism. Using investment to reap dividends in modern society, etc. is a new add-in due to modernism and materialism. All these crossed the border line of once totally unacceptable before, and modern christianity changes. And the thing is Kong Hee believes he is doing all and the best for God, that he has consulted with others in the questionable grey matters, that he said he stood by his integrity! I remember how some idiot christians are educated that atheists are bad ass. Just because atheists don't have a holy God or either rewards for doing good, atheists must have very bad directions and motivations for what is good and what is bad. Just as we don't need an absolute figure what is absolute hot, we can feel what is cold and what is hot relatively. Similarly we don't need to have a God as a symbol, a figure or a real person, in order for us to gauge what is right, what is wrong, what is good and what is bad. Then i should suppose that if you have so far a holy God or a supernatural law that rewards you for good, then you should be living much good than those without, but it isn't. An atheist can do evil by blatanly ignore what is evil or himself deem it as not evil by human rights lah, freedom for drugs lol, selfish stylelife imposed on others, etc.. Hope this answer the dude accusations that atheists are damn immoral... lol... People in religious world are not doing it anymore, although they are fervently doing the religion. The religion has long long ago lost its salt! Most who are actually doing it before have already left this delusional fever, the primitive irrationality. Why? It is not because of lack of faith or fate ... lol ... Because it is not true and it is not the truth. And it takes courage, morality, integrity and rationality to break through. Don't read atheist books for their opinions.. >.<... depend on your reasons and rationality, and find your way out. Or else, you fall into another kind of nonsense primtive irrationality, that can be another type of supersitition and mystical beliefs, after you are out from one nonsense. By the way, Atheism is not liking of lacking of a belief of god, but is the status phenomenon of absence of imaginations of god, ghost and whatever supersititions. Good luck! Isn't time for your awakening, but the journey will be painful.. wuhahahaha..
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Originally posted by TrueReppuzan:
As an atheist,
I hope Kong Hee’s case has made people realise how delusional today religion is. And it is as true as what has been already said, that people believe in religion to appease themselves. No matter if it be a fairy tale or a funky delusion, if it lost the respective religion ideal sense of goodness to their doers, it just becomes a selfish spirtuality (oops, i should say selfish delusion that you impose indirectly or directly to others ahaha). Of course, this matter of corruption become investigated due to some within CHC feel discomforted about it. Yet majority of CHC jumped into support for Kong Hee. Creative missionary has been in christianity circle before charismatism. Using investment to reap dividends in modern society, etc. is a new add-in due to modernism and materialism. All these crossed the border line of once totally unacceptable before, and modern christianity changes. And the thing is Kong Hee believes he is doing all and the best for God, that he has consulted with others in the questionable grey matters, that he said he stood by his integrity!
I remember how some idiot christians are educated that atheists are bad ass. Just because atheists don’t have a holy God or either rewards for doing good, atheists must have very bad directions and motivations for what is good and what is bad. Just as we don’t need an absolute figure what is absolute hot, we can feel what is cold and what is hot relatively. Similarly we don’t need to have a God as a symbol, a figure or a real person, in order for us to gauge what is right, what is wrong, what is good and what is bad. Then i should suppose that if you have so far a holy God or a supernatural law that rewards you for good, then you should be living much good than those without, but it isn’t. An atheist can do evil by blatanly ignore what is evil or himself deem it as not evil by human rights lah, freedom for drugs lol, selfish stylelife imposed on others, etc.. Hope this answer the dude accusations that atheists are damn immoral… lol…
People in religious world are not doing it anymore, although they are fervently doing the religion. The religion has long long ago lost its salt! Most who are actually doing it before have already left this delusional fever, the primitive irrationality. Why? It is not because of lack of faith or fate … lol … Because it is not true and it is not the truth. And it takes courage, morality, integrity and rationality to break through. Don’t read atheist books for their opinions.. >.<... depend on your reasons and rationality, and find your way out. Or else, you fall into another kind of nonsense primtive irrationality, that can be another type of supersitition and mystical beliefs, after you are out from one nonsense. By the way, Atheism is not liking of lacking of a belief of god, but is the status phenomenon of absence of imaginations of god, ghost and whatever supersititions.
Good luck! Isn’t time for your awakening, but the journey will be painful.. wuhahahaha..
I think you are confusing and conflating issues here. The personal failures of religious leaders (and KH has yet to be convicted of anything so let's wait for the outcome) is not a justification for atheism or proof that religion in general or Christianity in particular is a delusion.
You make the common strawman argument that theists accuse atheists of being immoral, or that atheists are considered immoral people. The correct view is that atheism cannot account for morality. If you consider yourself a moral person, that in itself presupposes a knowledge of moral absolutes or standard by which to judge between moral right or wrong, good or evil. How does atheism supply such a notion? That you would deny that you need God to tell you what is right or wrong does not mean that God is not the source of morality. You could well be denying that which is true.
You speak much about morality and rationality. But can you justify the existence of both from within atheism? Can atheism account for them? I submit to you that the answer is NO. So yes, an atheist can be morally upright and rational, and even argue that one should be morally upright and rational, but the atheist cannot explain or justify the existence of moral standards and rational thought.
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To be fair, Truerep was using Christian values to measure the protagonist here.
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Originally posted by Aneslayer:
To be fair, Truerep was using Christian values to measure the protagonist here.
Was he? That did not seem to come up in his post. What I gathered was that he was using CHC issue to justify the bigoted atheist's view that religion is a delusion and moralising about how atheists do not need God to be moral etc etc.
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anecdotes have only surface value... no true meaning unless one gives it to them...
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Suggest me some books about leadership theory, and download or buy link for it please.
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If people want to be atheist, anesthetist or anesthesiologist, let them be lor.
Why get so stressed?
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yah hor, already so much angst in society liao
take mrt, scared aunty scream at you
take the bus, scared someone push you off
ride a bicycle, scared van will knock you down
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Originally posted by BroInChrist:
In the first place, is it true that Christians must preach about tithing? The answer is NO.
The church, and even some Christians, may require you to tithe, but the Bible does not. Man may say you must tithe, but God did not lay down such a requirement. At the end of the day, we must obey God rather than man.
STated in Malachi.
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Originally posted by charlize:
If people want to be atheist, anesthetist or anesthesiologist, let them be lor.
Why get so stressed?
very well said, dude.
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Be transparent on how tithing is spent. Some churches show how the money collected from tithing is spent on a yearly basis.
Saw the news. The Kong Hee without make up looks every inch like a gangster, toa pai kia!!!!!
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Originally posted by SJS6638:
STated in Malachi.
Tithing is stated in Malachi, sure. My question is not whether tithing is taught in the Bible but whether the Bible teaches that Christians must tithe. Can you give a New Testament passage that teaches that prescriptively or descriptively? -
Life is surreal.
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CITY HARVEST CASE
Ex-finance manager faces 10 charges
Five charged a month ago made their second appearance in court too
Serina Wee (bottom right getting into the car) outside the subordinate courts yesterday with her husband, Mr Kenny Low (left), surrounded by supporters. At least 100 church members packed into the courtroom while about 200 more stood outside after being barred from entering due to space constraints. -- ST PHOTO: KEVIN LIMBy LEONARD LIM &
ELENA CHONG
COURT CORRESPONDENT
Five charged a month ago made their second appearance in court tooA SIXTH senior member of City Harvest Church was charged in court yesterday over the alleged misuse of more than $50 million in church funds.
The mega church's former finance manager, Serina Wee, was accused of six counts of criminal breach of trust and four of falsifying accounts. If found guilty, she faces up to a lifetime in jail.
Those charged a month ago - including City Harvest's founding pastor Kong Hee - also made their second appearance in court.
The stage is set for a long- drawn-out trial, with five Senior Counsel engaged and the accused likely to plead not guilty.
Wee is still employed by City Harvest as its procurement manager.
Her name was first mentioned in court documents for the five who were charged on June 27. It is believed that the 35-year-old was charged only yesterday as she gave birth to her third child a couple of weeks ago.
The six are accused of channelling $24 million in church building funds to sham bond investments, to conceal the diversion of money to finance the career of Kong's celebrity wife, singer Ho Yeow Sun. They also allegedly conspired to use a further $26.6 million of church funds to repay the sums owed.
The transactions occurred between August 2007 and November 2009.
An active City Harvest member for more than a decade, Wee was accompanied to court by husband Kenny Low, and is represented by Senior Counsel Andre Maniam.
Public records indicate she is the secretary of more than 50 companies, several of which are linked to the 33,000-strong City Harvest or its leadership. These include fashion retailers Skin Couture and Ed Hardy, as well as Xtron Productions - the artist management firm for Kong's wife, which allegedly had millions in church funds siphoned into it.
Like the others, Wee had her police bail of $500,000 extended yesterday.
The lawyer for one of the six accused, 52-year-old Chew Eng Han, indicated that he is likely to plead not guilty.
"Based on preliminary instructions, it is unlikely that my client will take a certain course," said Senior Counsel Francis Xavier.
The other lawyers echoed this and the proceedings ended in less than 10 minutes. The six accused are scheduled for a pre-trial conference on Aug 30.
Kong, 47, was the last of them to arrive at court yesterday at 8.55am. By then, there were at least 100 church members packed into the courtroom, some of whom arrived as early as 7.30am.
About 200 more stood outside the courtroom after being barred from entering due to space constraints, with a few patting him on the shoulder as he walked past.
Kong, who was not accompanied by his wife this time, left without speaking to reporters but later sent a statement to The Straits Times through his lawyers.
Saying he will "rigorously defend" his integrity, he added: "I will explain the facts and circumstances to the court, and am confident that I will be vindicated."
He faces three charges of criminal breach of trust. Church management board member John Lam Leng Hung, 44, faces three similar counts. Kong's deputy Tan Ye Peng, 39; church finance manager Sharon Tan, 36; and Chew face between seven and 10 charges of criminal breach of trust and falsifying accounts.
The first offence is punishable with a life sentence, or up to 20 years in prison and a fine. The second carries a maximum of 10 years in jail, a fine or both.
Two others who are named in court documents but have not been charged are the church's assistant accountant Dua Poh Teng and Indonesian businessman Wahju Hanafi, who owns a glassware firm that allegedly had $11 million of church funds transferred into it.
Christian leaders from Malaysia and Indonesia also turned up at the Subordinate Court, although the scene was soured by the authorities having to remove an offensive poster placed outside the courts before the crowds arrived.
A 57-year-old man was arrested in connection with the incident, police said.
CITY HARVEST CASE
Legal fees may exceed $1m each
Those charged last month include Kong Hee (above), Tan Ye Peng, Sharon Tan and Chew Eng Han. -- ST PHOTOS: KEVIN LIM, WONG KWAI CHOWBy JENNANI DURAI
THE court case involving six key members of City Harvest Church is shaping up to be one of the most costly in recent history, with each accused likely to foot a $1 million bill for top legal help.Five of the six accused have hired Senior Counsels while senior pastor Kong Hee is represented by Mr Edwin Tong, who is also a Member of Parliament for Moulmein-Kallang GRC.
There are 41 Senior Counsels - the local equivalent of British Queen's Counsels, who are regarded as the elite in the profession - here.
A Senior Counsel, who declined to be named, said most lawyers of this stature charge between $1,000 and $1,300 an hour.
This means that 10 days in court could incur fees from half a million to a million dollars.
While clients may ask for a fee cap, he added that most lawyers would be reluctant to give one as they do not know how much work will go into the case.
Another senior lawyer said: "If complex issues or a lot of documents are involved - as I presume they are in this case - the cost could even be twice as much."
Criminal lawyer Josephus Tan said rates could differ depending on lawyer and law firm.
"In big-firm culture, more often than not, it's an hourly billing system, but this may or may not apply to criminal cases, which are usually priced on a lump-sum basis."
Who is representing whom
• Senior pastor Kong Hee is represented by Mr Edwin Tong from Allen & Gledhill;
• Deputy pastor Tan Ye Peng by Senior Counsel Chelva Rajah of Tan, Rajah and Cheah, and lawyer N. Sreenivasan of Straits Law;
• Finance manager Sharon Tan Shao Yuen by Senior Counsel Kannan Ramesh of Tan Kok Quan Partnership and lawyer Jeffrey Ong of JLC Advisors;
• Church management board member John Lam Leng Hung by Senior Counsel Kenneth Tan of Kenneth Tan Partnership and lawyer Nicholas Narayanan of Nicholas & Tan;
• Investment manager Chew Eng Han by Senior Counsel Francis Xavier of Rajah & Tann;
• Former finance chief Serina Wee by Senior Counsel Andre Maniam of Wong Partnership.
Additional reporting by Bryna Sim
Top Of The News, The Straits Times, Thursday, July 26, 2012, Pg A2-3
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1m in legal fees is short change for CHC.
they can easily recoup this via monthly tithes
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So much money.
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Originally posted by M the name:
CITY HARVEST CASE
Ex-finance manager faces 10 charges
Five charged a month ago made their second appearance in court too
Serina Wee (bottom right getting into the car) outside the subordinate courts yesterday with her husband, Mr Kenny Low (left), surrounded by supporters. At least 100 church members packed into the courtroom while about 200 more stood outside after being barred from entering due to space constraints. -- ST PHOTO: KEVIN LIMBy LEONARD LIM &
ELENA CHONG
COURT CORRESPONDENT
Five charged a month ago made their second appearance in court tooA SIXTH senior member of City Harvest Church was charged in court yesterday over the alleged misuse of more than $50 million in church funds.
The mega church's former finance manager, Serina Wee, was accused of six counts of criminal breach of trust and four of falsifying accounts. If found guilty, she faces up to a lifetime in jail.
Those charged a month ago - including City Harvest's founding pastor Kong Hee - also made their second appearance in court.
The stage is set for a long- drawn-out trial, with five Senior Counsel engaged and the accused likely to plead not guilty.
Wee is still employed by City Harvest as its procurement manager.
Her name was first mentioned in court documents for the five who were charged on June 27. It is believed that the 35-year-old was charged only yesterday as she gave birth to her third child a couple of weeks ago.
The six are accused of channelling $24 million in church building funds to sham bond investments, to conceal the diversion of money to finance the career of Kong's celebrity wife, singer Ho Yeow Sun. They also allegedly conspired to use a further $26.6 million of church funds to repay the sums owed.
The transactions occurred between August 2007 and November 2009.
An active City Harvest member for more than a decade, Wee was accompanied to court by husband Kenny Low, and is represented by Senior Counsel Andre Maniam.
Public records indicate she is the secretary of more than 50 companies, several of which are linked to the 33,000-strong City Harvest or its leadership. These include fashion retailers Skin Couture and Ed Hardy, as well as Xtron Productions - the artist management firm for Kong's wife, which allegedly had millions in church funds siphoned into it.
Like the others, Wee had her police bail of $500,000 extended yesterday.
The lawyer for one of the six accused, 52-year-old Chew Eng Han, indicated that he is likely to plead not guilty.
"Based on preliminary instructions, it is unlikely that my client will take a certain course," said Senior Counsel Francis Xavier.
The other lawyers echoed this and the proceedings ended in less than 10 minutes. The six accused are scheduled for a pre-trial conference on Aug 30.
Kong, 47, was the last of them to arrive at court yesterday at 8.55am. By then, there were at least 100 church members packed into the courtroom, some of whom arrived as early as 7.30am.
About 200 more stood outside the courtroom after being barred from entering due to space constraints, with a few patting him on the shoulder as he walked past.
Kong, who was not accompanied by his wife this time, left without speaking to reporters but later sent a statement to The Straits Times through his lawyers.
Saying he will "rigorously defend" his integrity, he added: "I will explain the facts and circumstances to the court, and am confident that I will be vindicated."
He faces three charges of criminal breach of trust. Church management board member John Lam Leng Hung, 44, faces three similar counts. Kong's deputy Tan Ye Peng, 39; church finance manager Sharon Tan, 36; and Chew face between seven and 10 charges of criminal breach of trust and falsifying accounts.
The first offence is punishable with a life sentence, or up to 20 years in prison and a fine. The second carries a maximum of 10 years in jail, a fine or both.
Two others who are named in court documents but have not been charged are the church's assistant accountant Dua Poh Teng and Indonesian businessman Wahju Hanafi, who owns a glassware firm that allegedly had $11 million of church funds transferred into it.
Christian leaders from Malaysia and Indonesia also turned up at the Subordinate Court, although the scene was soured by the authorities having to remove an offensive poster placed outside the courts before the crowds arrived.
A 57-year-old man was arrested in connection with the incident, police said.
CITY HARVEST CASE
Legal fees may exceed $1m each
Those charged last month include Kong Hee (above), Tan Ye Peng, Sharon Tan and Chew Eng Han. -- ST PHOTOS: KEVIN LIM, WONG KWAI CHOWBy JENNANI DURAI
THE court case involving six key members of City Harvest Church is shaping up to be one of the most costly in recent history, with each accused likely to foot a $1 million bill for top legal help.Five of the six accused have hired Senior Counsels while senior pastor Kong Hee is represented by Mr Edwin Tong, who is also a Member of Parliament for Moulmein-Kallang GRC.
There are 41 Senior Counsels - the local equivalent of British Queen's Counsels, who are regarded as the elite in the profession - here.
A Senior Counsel, who declined to be named, said most lawyers of this stature charge between $1,000 and $1,300 an hour.
This means that 10 days in court could incur fees from half a million to a million dollars.
While clients may ask for a fee cap, he added that most lawyers would be reluctant to give one as they do not know how much work will go into the case.
Another senior lawyer said: "If complex issues or a lot of documents are involved - as I presume they are in this case - the cost could even be twice as much."
Criminal lawyer Josephus Tan said rates could differ depending on lawyer and law firm.
"In big-firm culture, more often than not, it's an hourly billing system, but this may or may not apply to criminal cases, which are usually priced on a lump-sum basis."
Who is representing whom
• Senior pastor Kong Hee is represented by Mr Edwin Tong from Allen & Gledhill;
• Deputy pastor Tan Ye Peng by Senior Counsel Chelva Rajah of Tan, Rajah and Cheah, and lawyer N. Sreenivasan of Straits Law;
• Finance manager Sharon Tan Shao Yuen by Senior Counsel Kannan Ramesh of Tan Kok Quan Partnership and lawyer Jeffrey Ong of JLC Advisors;
• Church management board member John Lam Leng Hung by Senior Counsel Kenneth Tan of Kenneth Tan Partnership and lawyer Nicholas Narayanan of Nicholas & Tan;
• Investment manager Chew Eng Han by Senior Counsel Francis Xavier of Rajah & Tann;
• Former finance chief Serina Wee by Senior Counsel Andre Maniam of Wong Partnership.
Additional reporting by Bryna Sim
Top Of The News, The Starits Times, Thursday, July 26, 2012, Pg A2-3
Sure, I believe the church members will pay for the legal fee for their celebrity pastor kong HEE and the others. Money is not a problem. The church members are happily conned by the hee kong. They willingly let him conned them. Can go ahead shoot a film on this.
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"Legal fees may exceed $1m each" Zeeleewong, can you enlighten us on the $1m each? Is the CHC going to pay for the legal fees? As CHC member, have you any say in this matter? You still there or shift to NCC?
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祸��自飞呀。。。。。。。哈哈哈
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the kong hee, his horsey wife ho sun yeow and those in cahoot with him are black sheep in the christian community in Singapore.
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Baa Baa Black Sheep, have you got any wool?
Yes sir, yes sir, 3 bags full
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Originally posted by JT1983:
“Legal fees may exceed $1m each”
Zeeleewong, can you enlighten us on the $1m each?
Is the CHC going to pay for the legal fees?
As CHC member, have you any say in this matter?
You still there or shift to NCC?Convert Liao. Hehhe
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eh honeybunzie
kong hee got fan tai sui or not!!!
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Dun need to argue liao. The court granted him permission to leave Singapore.
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hopefully he can run road
partly coz it proves he is guilty
dont waste taxpayer money on legal proceedings
partly i really hope CHC people lose their money to worthless cause