Novena Church exorcism suit begins
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Originally posted by Honeybunz:
I just read the latest.. about today's hearing.
Bajwa said the two priests "goofed up" and were amateurs.
Agrrhhh
priests are human too. human make mistakes, they goof up too. i don't know why you can't seem to be able to accept that there might be a chance they made a mistake, and that they're all so perfect. zz.
they're human, not God.
not that i'm supporting that mad indian lady anyway.
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Originally posted by the Bear:
Thx for the picIt just goes to show that he looks like he is wearing this :x
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He's being paid to do his job but as much as he wants to grill the priests and break them down, such mind games are unnecessary.
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Originally posted by dumbdumb!:
priests are human too. human make mistakes, they goof up too. i don't know why you can't seem to be able to accept that there might be a chance they made a mistake, and that they're all so perfect. zz.
they're human, not God.
not that i'm supporting that mad indian lady anyway.
Then I hope you will also accept that there might be a chance they did not make any mistake.
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As a catholic, I attend Novena church mass sometimes during weekdays.. Their homilies were good pretty easy to understand.. The priests were "people priests". They were pretty friendly, notably, Frs Paul Lim, Peter wee, Bill Heng, Gino henriques and many others and build good rapport with people, catholics and non catholics alike. They are doing a good job of bringing people to know Jesus, in particular non catholics..
They have a great devotion to Mother Mary. people of all religions came to pray and seek help. Countless petitions were answered. I have friends who go to saturday novena regulary to pray.. I do not go that often maybe once a while.
As to the recent case involved the alleged "exorcism", I'm not sure whether if true exorcism did carried out. However, one's thing for sure.. the priests there would not hestitate to help you if you are in spiritual danger or trouble. at anytime you can ask a priest just simply to bless you or pray for you.. if you want to go for a trip or a sugery. for a peace of mind. or invoke Divine Protection for you.
If what the so called "exorcism" proved to be false at the end of hearing.. it would be sad for the plantiff seeking compensation. Let us not mock at them or speak ill of them, but rather pray for their healing of the victims and all involved. Same goes for Mr. Bawja? the lawyer who said "may God forgive You!" Just pray for him.. But Please Mr. Bajwa pls dun say this .. again.. it is not very nice.. Even if you are of other religion, I would not remark or insult yr religion..
I know Fr. simon Tan on a personal basis and though he's known for a straight talker, he's a good priest. He was formerly an altar boy? form st. anne's church way back in punggol under Fr. Berthold. a french priest who has passed on. (God Bless His soul!) Someone mentioned his teochew in his homily.. that's laughable..that's ok.. In fact, many priests are teochew.. The present Archbishop Nicholas Chia is also teochew from nativity church in kangkar hougang. Teochew "nan' as they say.. ha..
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Originally posted by Catholicuser:
As a catholic, I attend Novena church mass sometimes during weekdays.. Their homilies were good pretty easy to understand.. The priests were "people priests". They were pretty friendly, notably, Frs Paul Lim, Peter wee, Bill Heng, Gino henriques and many others and build good rapport with people, catholics and non catholics alike. They are doing a good job of bringing people to know Jesus, in particular non catholics..
They have a great devotion to Mother Mary. people of all religions came to pray and seek help. Countless petitions were answered. I have friends who go to saturday novena regulary to pray.. I do not go that often maybe once a while.
As to the recent case involved the alleged "exorcism", I'm not sure whether if true exorcism did carried out. However, one's thing for sure.. the priests there would not hestitate to help you if you are in spiritual danger or trouble. at anytime you can ask a priest just simply to bless you or pray for you.. if you want to go for a trip or a sugery. for a peace of mind. or invoke Divine Protection for you.
If what the so called "exorcism" proved to be false at the end of hearing.. it would be sad for the plantiff seeking compensation. Let us not mock at them or speak ill of them, but rather pray for their healing of the victims and all involved. Same goes for Mr. Bawja? the lawyer who said "may God forgive You!" Just pray for him.. But Please Mr. Bajwa pls dun say this .. again.. it is not very nice.. Even if you are of other religion, I would not remark or insult yr religion..
I know Fr. simon Tan on a personal basis and though he's known for a straight talker, he's a good priest. He was formerly an altar boy? form st. anne's church way back in punggol under Fr. Berthold. a french priest who has passed on. (God Bless His soul!) Someone mentioned his teochew in his homily.. that's laughable..that's ok.. In fact, many priests are teochew.. The present Archbishop Nicholas Chia is also teochew from nativity church in kangkar hougang. Teochew "nan' as they say.. ha..
Hi
Thank you for sharing :)
Yes, many priests are Teochew. In fact, many Catholics are Teochew. Last time, I ever heard that Hougang area has a relatively higher population of Teochew. And if you live around there, you will notice that the Catholic population there is also high.
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I think when Bajwa used the word "goof", he caught sight of his own reflection! May God forgive you Bajwa for not recognising your own reflection! Catholicuser, I am not a Catholic. I actually had a negative impression of Catholics. The first Church I ever attended was the Novena Church and I liked the priests homily. Its done to earth. Protestant Churches are more warm in the way they greet you, the music and prayers, services etc. are meant to bring you to an emotional high. But if you listen to the Eucharistic prayer in the Catholic Church - man, nothing beats that. it is so moving and powerful. And if anyone has ever listend to a Euchasristic prayer during Mass, they would know that protestants talk rot when they keep claiming that catholics do not know God the Father, Son and Holy Spirit. and Catholics worship Mary as Goddess. This stubborness to accept what is before their very eyes turned me off Protestant Churches and Protestant pastors who would condemn the Catholic Church from their holy altar. I have never heard a Catholic Priest use the altar to condemn Proestants! Which is why when I want to go to Church, it is only a Catholic Church I will go to and my very favourite is the Novena Church. In my kinder moments, Catholicuser, I do pray for Bajwa, SW and her family. I think they must be desperate - SW and family for money and Bajwa hoping to revive a pathetic going nowhere law practise (yah, google him and see what you find!) but when I read of her medical history, all the lies involved, it is very hard to remain charitable. But I guess if it is easy then Jesus didn't have to come to earth to teach us! Back to the trial, I think - Catholics can correct me if I am wrong - at Easter service, there is a prayer to renounce Satan etc. Does that mean all Catholics are possessed?! This Bajwa and his sorry loser clients know nothing - and obviously have zero respect - for the Church. They cannot differentiate a simple prayer from hollywood style demonic expulsion! I am looking forward to Monday when Angelina Chan takes the stand. I think more of the SW's DELIBERATELY DECEITFUL medical history will be made known. Changi Hospital doctors have been played like a violin!
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Originally posted by adetet:
Back to the trial, I think – Catholics can correct me if I am wrong – at Easter service, there is a prayer to renounce Satan etc. Does that mean all Catholics are possessed?! This Bajwa and his sorry loser clients know nothing – and obviously have zero respect – for the Church. They cannot differentiate a simple prayer from hollywood style demonic expulsion!
Renewal of Baptismal Promises
V. Do you reject Satan? R. I do.
V. And all his works? R. I do.
V. And all his empty promises? R. I do.
V. Do you believe in God, the Father Almighty, creator of heaven and earth? R. I do.
V. Do you believe in Jesus Christ, his only Son, our Lord, who was born of the Virgin Mary was crucified, died, and was buried, rose from the dead, and is now seated at the right hand of the Father? R. I do.
Do you believe in the Holy Spirit, the holy Catholic church, the communion of saints, the forgiveness of sins, the resurrection of the body, and life everlasting? R. I do.
V. God, the all-powerful Father of our Lord Jesus Christ has given us a new birth by water and the Holy Spirit, and forgiven all our sins. May he also keep us faithful to our Lord Jesus Christ for ever and ever.
R. Amen.
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hi adetet,
nice to know that you appreciate the catholic mass. Th catholic mass is the highest form of prayer. The church has always been under "attacked". for many things, devotion to mary, etc.. eucharist, anti-gay etc.. Until people come to know the truth of its teachings. it will remain to be seen as such. As they say " they cannot accept the truth" The truth hurts!
This case of "alleged" excorcism is a "classic" IIMO, this lawyer is using logic and science to prove that exorcism cannot "cure" of her illness or there's no such thing as exorcism at all. And in so doing, you get the consequences of a so called "botched" exorcism.. Unfortunately, "praying over" invlovled faith and faith is a mystery. What abt those prayed and being cured? How do answer that? It's a miracle, right? can science proved it? Of course no!
At Easter, we took the rite of baptism and this include the renounce of Satan and his demons and all his works. The presence of evil is very real in this world.
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Originally posted by dumbdumb!:
priests are human too. human make mistakes, they goof up too. i don't know why you can't seem to be able to accept that there might be a chance they made a mistake, and that they're all so perfect. zz.
they're human, not God.
not that i'm supporting that mad indian lady anyway.
interesting notion...ok, perhaps we need to examine this area as well.
1) If the lady's case is a medical issue, hence best option is to call an ambulance as what her lawyer sugest should have been done....therefore... its a medical issue and not a evil spirit processed issue. Then, it shouldn't have matter if the prayer offered is not "professional" enough, as its not a spiritual issue, so prayer as best is just for comforting, encouragement, at worst nothing.
2) If the lady's case is a spiritual issue, than the prayer offered may cause thing to be worst if not "professional" enough. On the other hand, this would also meant that she would had been tormented by evil spirits all along, which means, at worst, what the prayer could had done is just to bring forth manifestation of the torments that was already there in the first place, hence cannot say, prayer not good enough so she got tormented, when the tormentation would have been there all along, with or without the prayers.
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Hi Vince69 My take on the areas you want to examine :- 1) the "lady" (you're very kind to refer to her as that) has been trained since young to go into trances and trained to get out of them! She goes into a trance at Novena and claims demonic possession. 2) Yet strangely enough no-one in her family is aware of this ability of hers which she had since young and which she had often performed in her family's presence. What were they doing during the performances - sleeping?! 3) She and her family deliberately set out to claim money furnishing a false medical history. If the defendants didn't have good attorneys, the whole of Singapore would not have known of this. I wonder if Bajwa is legally obliged to make sure the full facts were disclosed or it is okay since he is the defendants laywers to let them hide behind half-truths and deliberate lies? If he is legally obliged then I hope he gets disbarred. I talk about legal right and wrong and not morals and/or ethics as these are not words I would associate with Bajwa and his clients! 4) Would a more "professional" prayer - i.e. exorcism help? Well, as the priests have been saying they would need time to ascertain if she is really possessed. This is not a Hollywood drama where the priest would make a snap decision and rushes to exorcise the person. The plaintfiff writhers like a snake and has the morals of one. She's no lady! Points 1 and 2 on their own is damaging enough but taken together with Point 3 shows a deliberate attempt to defraud.
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I was doing this course last semester and when I read about the Novena case, it reminded me of the Rosenhan experiments
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rosenhan_experiment
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Originally posted by adetet:
Hi Vince69
My take on the areas you want to examine :-1) the “lady” (you’re very kind to refer to her as that) has been trained since young to go into trances and trained to get out of them! She goes into a trance at Novena and claims demonic possession.
2) Yet strangely enough no-one in her family is aware of this ability of hers which she had since young and which she had often performed in her family’s presence. What were they doing during the performances – sleeping?!
3) She and her family deliberately set out to claim money furnishing a false medical history. If the defendants didn’t have good attorneys, the whole of Singapore would not have known of this. I wonder if Bajwa is legally obliged to make sure the full facts were disclosed or it is okay since he is the defendants laywers to let them hide behind half-truths and deliberate lies? If he is legally obliged then I hope he gets disbarred. I talk about legal right and wrong and not morals and/or ethics as these are not words I would associate with Bajwa and his clients!
4) Would a more “professional” prayer – i.e. exorcism help? Well, as the priests have been saying they would need time to ascertain if she is really possessed. This is not a Hollywood drama where the priest would make a snap decision and rushes to exorcise the person.
The plaintfiff writhers like a snake and has the morals of one. She’s no lady! Points 1 and 2 on their own is damaging enough but taken together with Point 3 shows a deliberate attempt to defraud.
my original purpose is to show that the prayer couldn't have cause the situation in her being worst.anyway, I also see in her a human tormented by evil and souls lost (unless God intervene)... as such, though I may not agree with the deeds, I do not have the heart to call her anything else.
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Originally posted by vince69:
my original purpose is to show that the prayer couldn't have cause the situation in her being worst.anyway, I also see in her a human tormented by evil and souls lost (unless God intervene)... as such, though I may not agree with the deeds, I do not have the heart to call her anything else.
aiyoh. you so nice one.
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Yah, Vince69, you are very nice :) Must learn from you. Only occasionally I can see the SW and her family as poor lost souls but mostly I just see them as con artists who need to pay big time for this. BTW, how come no news on Angelina Chan's court appearance? Has the case been postponed again?!
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Psychiatrist maintains Amutha Valli suffers from post-traumatic stress disorder
By Lynda Hong, Channel NewsAsia |Posted: 07 July 2008 2212 hrs
SINGAPORE : Day 22 of the Amutha Valli alleged exorcism trial saw a second psychiatrist reaffirming an earlier doctor's diagnosis of post-traumatic stress disorder.
Dr Angelina Chan, a consultant at Changi General Hospital, had treated Amutha Valli following Ong Thiew Chai's retirement from Tan Tock Seng Hospital.
She told the court that she had found Amutha Valli stressed, paranoid and often harbouring delusions about people.
Dr Chan explained that Amutha Valli had been encouraged to do whatever it took to relax and thus was allowed to travel overseas, in spite of her mental state.
She testified that she knew Amutha Valli had planned to visit some temples in Malaysia.
The trial continues in the High Court where a private investigator's video purportedly showing some of Amutha Valli's outdoor activities is expected to be shown. - CNA/ms -
"Dr Chan explained that Amutha Valli had been encouraged to do whatever it took to relax and thus was allowed to travel overseas, in spite of her mental state."
do whatever it takes to relax.. so that explains the sueing part!
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Originally posted by Honeybunz:
Then I hope you will also accept that there might be a chance they did not make any mistake.Exorcism is already a big mistake.This is the 21st century and its the job of the shrinks and not Monks,Mediums or Priests.
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Originally posted by Short Ninja:
Exorcism is already a big mistake.This is the 21st century and its the job of the shrinks and not Monks,Mediums or Priests.
=)
mental issues, need to refer to mental help
spiritual issues, need to refer to spiritual help
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Originally posted by vince69:
my original purpose is to show that the prayer couldn't have cause the situation in her being worst.anyway, I also see in her a human tormented by evil and souls lost (unless God intervene)... as such, though I may not agree with the deeds, I do not have the heart to call her anything else.
hmm. interesting viewpoint. =)
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Originally posted by dumbdumb!:
=)
mental issues, need to refer to mental help
spiritual issues, need to refer to spiritual help
beating the crap out of an 'excorcised person' is definitely a mental issue>hahaha
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Originally posted by dumbdumb!:
=)
mental issues, need to refer to mental help
spiritual issues, need to refer to spiritual help
and liars with intention to defraud need to be sent to prison! -
Originally posted by dumbdumb!:
=)
mental issues, need to refer to mental help
spiritual issues, need to refer to spiritual help
lies with clear intention to defraud, need to "refer" to prison! -
Originally posted by Honeybunz:
Psychiatrist maintains Amutha Valli suffers from post-traumatic stress disorder
By Lynda Hong, Channel NewsAsia |Posted: 07 July 2008 2212 hrs
SINGAPORE : Day 22 of the Amutha Valli alleged exorcism trial saw a second psychiatrist reaffirming an earlier doctor's diagnosis of post-traumatic stress disorder.
Dr Angelina Chan, a consultant at Changi General Hospital, had treated Amutha Valli following Ong Thiew Chai's retirement from Tan Tock Seng Hospital.
She told the court that she had found Amutha Valli stressed, paranoid and often harbouring delusions about people.
Dr Chan explained that Amutha Valli had been encouraged to do whatever it took to relax and thus was allowed to travel overseas, in spite of her mental state.
She testified that she knew Amutha Valli had planned to visit some temples in Malaysia.
The trial continues in the High Court where a private investigator's video purportedly showing some of Amutha Valli's outdoor activities is expected to be shown. - CNA/ms
there must be trauma to suffer PTSD.. -
Originally posted by the Bear:
there must be trauma to suffer PTSD..
But the question is whether she is really suffering from PTSD or not? Her symptoms are soo clever - only when going to Changi Hospital, then she got PTSD attacks. Otherwise, she is fine. NUH doctors say no PTSD, Changi Hospital doctors say yes.