lame question on meditation
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lets say you meditate to the 4th jhana. the next time you meditate, do you have to go from the 1st to the 2nd to the 3rd then 4th again or do you jump straight to the 4th?
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Usually, it need to go from first to second and second to third and so for.
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I thought so.
I read from a website that higher Jhanas are achieved by shifting focus, shifting from different states to different states. You can't get to the 8 level without going through the first level.
But, always better to get someone some experience in Jhanas like Sangha to answer you
For those who do not know what is "Jhanas", Jhanas are rapturous states achieved through the practice of samatha meditation. They are very blissful states that are attained in Meditation, marvelous experience to those who practice meditation. -
Hi,
Besides the Jhanas, have you experience pure empty Presence in a state of no thought? That is the true state of a Being. It is beyond the mind, beyond concepts.
This pure Presence is all pervading, yet void at the same time. In my experience, the Jhanas are different. Jhana's are like 'looking outward' in a meditation, pure Presence is 'looking inwards'. I can't describe it very well.
Pure presence can best be felt when a person is at the moment free from desires. Pure presence is like the ray that emits its properties into the mind. The properties of the pure presence form your personality. -
There are 8 Jhanas:
1st--joy and ease, but reasoning continues
2nd--no reasoning, but joy and ease
3rd--no reasoning, no joy and ease
4th--neither no reasoning or no joy and ease
5th--realm of the infinity of space
6th--realm of the infinity of consciousness
7th--realm of nothingness
8th--neither perception nor non-perception
The first 4 Jhanas are "Form Jhanas", and the next 4 are "Formless Jhanas"
8th Jhana is a form of "cognition so subtle that it cannot be said whether it exists or not." An attainer of the 8th Jhana will be exist in the Nevasanna-nasannayatana bhumi after death. There are many practitioners who have mistaken their jhanic experience to be Nirvana.I.1 Nevasanna-nasannayatana bhumi. The realm of neither perception nor non-perception, the summit of all existences. They can live a life span that is equivalent to that of 84000 Maha kappa or universes. Udaka, the ascetic who was the second teacher abandoned by the Buddha in his search for the Four Noble Truths was reborn in this Brahma realm after dying on the night before the Buddha decided to teach the Dhamma.(3) Reaching the eighth Jhana of Samatha meditation can only attain this highest existence.
(please see topic: Different Existences and Realms in Buddhism)
There are many religions in the world that leads to such a jhanic state. However, Buddhism's Nirvana is beyond any of such states, and enters into cessation.* (a) All phenomena are shunya (void, empty), as they are relative and so lack substantiality and independent reality; they are conditioned by and depenedent on other phenomena (this is the Buddhist theory of Pratitya-samutpanna or "dependent origination") and hence in themselves ultimately unreal.
* (b) The Absolute Reality is shunya or shunyata, as it is devoid of empirical forms and thought constructs, no predicate ("is", "not-is", "is and not-is", neither "is nor not-is") can legitamately be applied to it. -
That's why I say Nirvana may not be in the Jhanic states.
beside quoting from text, do you have direct experience of the states. -
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Jhana is attained with no expecting, with no wanting, with no not wanting, with no unawareness, with no thoughts, with samadhi, with mindfulness. Only a mindful mind is a ready mind for meditation.
Jhana starts from within, it is a state of focus mind. It is still impermanance. But is is free from craving. A craving (aversion and attached) mind will feel discomfort when attempting to enter Jhana.
When one enters into Vipassana after Jhana, it is a process of noting rather than thoughts. We need to even note of defilement thoughts.
When one is in 4th Jhana, he is also in equanimity, or what u called Upekka. a state of no craving, no happy, no sad, no hatred. And left with one pointiness.
"Pure Pressence"? Are you referring to Nibanna? The Buddha's natural that everyone has?
Buddha ever said, even when He was in 8th Jhana, there are still 2 things available, which is perception and feeling. This means that Jhana is not Nibbana. -
sounds interesting..anybody knows where i can learn meditation?
would like to learn during my past-times.
btw i stay in east. -
There are a few places u can learn meditation. So far, I learned 4 types of meditation. I learned 3 tyoes from KMSPK, Metta, Kagasity and Samadhi.
Vipassana can be learned from Vipassana Meditation Center. -
can tell me their locations?
btw i dun wan fa lun gong ahh.. i anti-that one!
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In this forum, I will not allow cults to be promoted, so you don't have to worry.
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KMSPKS = Kong Meng San Phor Kark See.
VMC = http://vmc128.8m.com/ -
http://www.singapore-dharmanet.per.sg/htm/general/temple.htm
This is the address of most buddhist monasteries and dharma centres in Singapore.
The 4 meditations that Sangha has mentioned are meditations from the Theravadin tradition. There are also many other meditations, e.g zen meditations, in Singapore.
Good luck in your practice. -
anything wrong wif fa lun gong? what are the practises that distinguish them and got them labelled as a 'cult'?Originally posted by nightzip:can tell me their locations?
btw i dun wan fa lun gong ahh.. i anti-that one!
thanks -
Hi Sangha,
I am in no position to say whether Pure presence is nibbana. I can only write from my own experience and understanding.
This pure presence is called Rigpa in Tibetan Buddhism. I am not a Buddhist in this life, but I was a Tibetan Monk of Nyingma school several lifetimes ago. That is why I still have a lot of interest in Buddhism.
About Rigpa, when we experience it. It is formless and empty and at the same time infinite and all pervading. It is NOT BLISS. Bliss is a samadhi state but it is not the true nature yet, it is still a state in the mind. I have bliss experiences also, in fact i have then now quite often outside of meditation also.
Rigpa is a presence of 'yourself' that is connect to everything in the universe. That is probably why the Buddha say that there is 'no self'. All is connect to all in the Dharmakaya. Rigpa is a part of the Dharmakaya. When in the state, there is no separation into you or me... We are all one thing which cannot be described.
However, I must say that even now, while reading this, we are already the rigpa. We do not realise this is because we THINK we are just the mind/personality. The mind/personality is a REFLECTION from rigpa. It is not the true self. If you understand what I am write, you may get a sudden awakening/realisation. And if the realisation is deep enough, your viewpoint or way of seeing the world will change.
Just my 2 cents...Originally posted by Sangha:Jhana is attained with no expecting, with no wanting, with no not wanting, with no unawareness, with no thoughts, with samadhi, with mindfulness. Only a mindful mind is a ready mind for meditation.
Jhana starts from within, it is a state of focus mind. It is still impermanance. But is is free from craving. A craving (aversion and attached) mind will feel discomfort when attempting to enter Jhana.
When one enters into Vipassana after Jhana, it is a process of noting rather than thoughts. We need to even note of defilement thoughts.
When one is in 4th Jhana, he is also in equanimity, or what u called Upekka. a state of no craving, no happy, no sad, no hatred. And left with one pointiness.
"Pure Pressence"? Are you referring to Nibanna? The Buddha's natural that everyone has?
Buddha ever said, even when He was in 8th Jhana, there are still 2 things available, which is perception and feeling. This means that Jhana is not Nibbana. -
The list of Buddhist cults is here: http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Ithaca/4886/cults.htmOriginally posted by Poopie-Head:anything wrong wif fa lun gong? what are the practises that distinguish them and got them labelled as a 'cult'?
thanks
The article on How the falungong is a cult is here: http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Ithaca/4886/falun.htm
They do not teach the true Buddhist teachings, and practices deviantly (not Buddhist practice). -
Hi LongChen,
Even the "inner" and "outer" are production of the analytical mind. Only the mind requires such division, concepts and thoughts. The Presence has no room for all these. It works through naturalness and directness. Too short to have time and too simple to have thought.
However even when one experiences this pure sense of existence, due to latent karmic tendencies, the mind will still attempt to create a formless-transparent-like entity ('I') experiencing "things". In reality there is no 'I'.
The 'Blueness' of the blue sky isn't 'I'.
Remain Silence and in Presence, all things are in their entirety.
No 'I' is required.
This itself is sufficient.
Happy Journey. -
Hi Thusness,
Thank you for your profound explanation.
May I ask ... how do one remain in Presence all the time. Does it require the clearing of all karmic tendencies (samcaras/samskara).
I understand that the Presence is there all the time. Is it possible to be in presence even when engaged in say a conversation with another person?
Currently, switching to witness state is only possible when I am not engaged in any conversation.
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Hi Long Chen,
Yes it is possible. But as much as I would not like to say, there is no what, where, when, why and how. Sounds senseless but it is true. These are what Naturalness is not.
Nevertheless, the mind will be stubbornly attached to this current mode of knowing because to the mind, it is all there is. It seems to be a destined journey that a sincere seeker has to continue penetrate its own depth, till it completely exhaust itself and meet its own DEATH. The death of the 'I'.
The giving up and full understanding of the poverty of the entire thinking and analytical mechanism will allow the mind to rest itself upon nothing. Here karmic tendency arises and ceases as it is, no effort to struggle is made.
This is the time effortless knowing arise. A complete clarity of ISness manisfesting as pure Presence.
Seek deep into the depth of our own self, there is always this Will, Effort..etc. This Unwillingless to let go, to be.
Simply put, it is this that separates.
Lastly try not to find a sit in the body. The true nature fills all space. Creating a boundary for What that is neither within nor without will eventually prove futile. Presence finds itself in Otherness. The body has created the illusion of 'inward' and divides. We have engaged ourselves in too much analysis and lost our intuitiveness and directness. Since u have experienced the pure Presence, sense the 'I' that holds and let go immeidately.
Presense always IS.
Nice Chat
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Hi Thusness,
Got it.
You are indeed enlightened.
Thanks -
Thanks, Sangha, Thusness, for joining us at my request
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Hi Eternal Now,
I sense that Thusness is like a Teacher to you. -
Actually, don't know much about them in person, but enjoyed chatting with them in IRC chatroom.
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Presence...
Search for it, loses it and cycle within the mind
Let things be.... rest in presence.