How did Buddha got lost in Samsara?
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This is a Q&A recommended to me by Thusness, which I find quite interesting and I'm going to post it here... it's from a Q&A by Thrangu Rinpoche.
http://www.rinpoche.com/q&a.htm -
Would it be appropriate u change the topic title , soundsOriginally posted by An Eternal Now:This is a Q&A recommended to me by Thusness, which I find quite interesting and I'm going to post it here... it's from a Q&A by Thrangu Rinpoche.
http://www.rinpoche.com/q&a.htm
malice to Buddha
i wont like controversia topic to make ppl confused
it is like
so ?
Buddha is enlightened or Not ??? -
Point is, controversial topic attracts interest into finding out moreOriginally posted by bohiruci:Would it be appropriate u change the topic title , sounds
malice to Buddha
i wont like controversia topic to make ppl confused
it is like
so ?
Buddha is enlightened or Not ???
p.s i suggested the topic to be 'How did we got lost in Samsara', but Thusness insisted that i should put it as 'How did Buddha got lost in Samsara?' instead, so if got any problem, I think he'll have to answer that -
Yes Enternal Now,Originally posted by An Eternal Now:Point is, controversial topic attracts interest into finding out more
p.s i suggested the topic to be 'How did we got lost in Samsara', but Thusness insisted that i should put it as 'How did Buddha got lost in Samsara?' instead, so if got any problem, I think he'll have to answer that
Not that I insisted but the change is necessary because it is not the spirit of the question that is posted to Thrangu Rinpoche by his students.
If the nature of mind is this all-pervading, brilliant union of luminosity and emptiness, ungraspable, how is it that it could be obscured, even for a moment, let alone lifetime after lifetime?
What and who could possibly equal to the original, pure, all-pervading, brilliant state of our mind?
Is Buddhism about getting us back to our orginal state of pure awareness that no dust can fall upon even after a zillion lives? Such question is controversial and do create confusion. But confusion is necessary for wisdom to arise.
Lastly I do agree with Bohiruci that we should not malice Buddha. The intention must be pure and sincere. After listening the audio, perhaps a more appropriate title can arise from other 'forumers'. -
Originally posted by Thusness:
wah ,applause , a round of applause to the one who talks with impact
Yes Enternal Now,
Not that I insisted but the change is necessary because it is not the spirit of the question that is posted to Thrangu Rinpoche by his students.
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If the nature of mind is this all-pervading, brilliant union of luminosity and emptiness, ungraspable, how is it that it could be obscured, even for a moment, let alone lifetime after lifetime?
What and who could possibly equal to the original, pure, all-pervading, brilliant state of our mind?
Is Buddhism about getting us back to our orginal state of pure awareness that no dust can fall upon even after a zillion lives? Such question is controversial and do create confusion. But confusion is necessary for wisdom to arise.
Lastly I do agree with Bohiruci that we should not malice Buddha. The intention must be pure and sincere. After listening the audio, perhaps a more appropriate title can arise from other 'forumers'.
[/b]
hahahahahahahaha -
chapter 4 of Shurangama sutra:
The Buddha said, "You speak of understanding enlightenment; does the nature understand and is that called enlightenment? Or does enlightenment initially lack understanding and so you speak of understanding enlightenment?"
Purna said, "If a lack of understanding is called enlightenment, then there would be no understanding at all."
The Buddha said, "If there were no understanding at all, then there could be no understanding of enlightenment. If understanding is added, then that is not enlightenment. If understanding is not added, then there's no understanding. But a lack of understanding or ignorance is not the lucid bright nature of enlightenment. The nature of enlightenment certainly includes understanding. It's redundant to speak of understanding enlightenment. Enlightenment is not a kind of understanding. Understanding sets up an objective realm. Once that objective realm is set up, your false subjective state arises.
As the expression goes, ignorance(aka not knowing) no doubt might be the overall condition of beings, but it is also through 'Not wanting to know' that Springs All Knowing of Buddha(s). ie, Not knowing and enlightenment complement each other.
lastly, be assured that when one attained the wonderful emptiness of clear enlightenment(ie Buddhahood), one don't become confused again.
"Purna said, "If this wonderful enlightenment, the wonderful awareness of fundamental enlightenment, which is neither greater than nor less than the mind of the Tathagata, abruptly brings forth the mountains, the rivers, and the great earth, and all conditioned phenomena, then now that the Tathagata has attained the wonderful emptiness of clear enlightenment, will the mountains, the rivers, the great earth, and all conditioned habitual outflows arise ever again?"
The Buddha said to Purna, "If a person living in a village were confused about directions, mistaking south for north, would that confusion be the result of confusion or of awareness?"
Purna said, "His confusion would be the result of neither. Why not? Confusion is fundamentally baseless, so how could anything arise because of it? And as awareness does not produce confusion, how could confusion arise out of it?"
The Buddha said, "If someone who knows the directions points them out to the confused person, then once the person who was confused becomes aware, do you suppose, Purna, that he could lose his sense of direction again in that village?"
"No, World Honored One."
"Purna, the Tathagatas of the ten directions are the same way. Confusion is groundless and ultimately empty in nature. In the past, there basically was no confusion. It merely seemed as if there were confusion and enlightenment. When the delusion about confusion and enlightenment is ended, enlightenment will not give rise to confusion. Consider the person who, because of cataracts, saw flowers in space. Once the cataracts were removed, the flowers in space disappeared. Were he to rush to the spot where the flowers disappeared and wait for them to reappear, would you consider that person to be stupid or wise?"
Purna said, "Originally there weren't any flowers in space. It was through a seeing disability that they appeared and disappeared. To see the disappearance of the flowers in space is already a distortion. To wait for them to reappear is sheer madness. Why bother to determine further if such a person is stupid or wise?"
The Buddha said, "Since you explain it that way, why do you ask if the clear emptiness of wonderful enlightenment can once again give rise to the mountains, the rivers, and the great earth? Consider a piece of ore containing gold and other metals mixed together. Once the pure gold is extracted it will never become ore again. Consider wood that has burnt to ashes; it will never become wood again. The Bodhi and Nirvana of all Buddhas, the Tathagatas, are the same way. "
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The knowing here refers to a form of conceptual understanding. Enlightenment is not a form of knowledge where understanding is derived from measurement and comparison. Understanding that springs from such mode of knowing creates an objective and subjective world and divides.
When reality is intuitive perceived as a result of prajna wisdom, such division does not arise as the division is from beginless time an illusion.
When the seeing is clear, falling isnÂ’t possible. It would be like telling a normal person to see illusion.
However the question here is why the original mind has fallen when it is in its original state of lucidity and luminosity? Is this luminosity the same as
“the lucid bright nature of enlightenment”? -
yes, same. lucid or luminous or original brightness, are but labeling the same thing.
i'm thinking Conditioning(yuan).
See another quote from Shurangama Sutra:
QUOTE
The Buddha said to �nanda, "From beginning less time onward, all living beings and in all kinds of upside down ways, have created seeds of karma which naturally run their course, like the aksha cluster.
"The reason that cultivators cannot accomplish unsurpassed Bodhi, but instead reach the level of Hearers or of those enlightened to conditions, or become accomplished in externalist ways as heaven-dwellers or as demon kings or as members of the demonsÂ’ retinues is that they do not know the two fundamental roots and so are mistaken and confused in their cultivation. They are like one who cooks sand in the hope of creating savory delicacies. They may do so for as many eons as there are motes of dust, but in the end they will not obtain what they want.
"What are the two? �nanda, the first is the root of beginning less birth and death, which is the mind that seizes upon conditions and that you and all living beings now make use of, taking it to be your own nature.
"The second is the primal pure substance of beginning less Bodhi Nirvana. It is the primal bright essence of consciousness that can bring forth all conditions. Due to these conditions, you consider it to be lost."Having lost sight of that original brightness, although beings use it to the end of their days, they are unaware of it, and unintentionally enter the various destinies.
"�nanda, now you wish to know about the path of shamatha with the hope of quitting birth and death. I will now question you further."......
"All of you good people, I have often said that all conditions that bring about forms and the mind as well as dharmas pertaining to the mind and all the conditioned dharmas are manifestations of the mind only. Your bodies and your minds all appear within the wonder of the bright, true, essential, magnificent mind.
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Well said and well quoted sinweiy.
Now, can luminosity arise without conditions? Is there a time where there is a bright, true, essential, magnificent mind without conditions? -
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One who even gets to hear these words can be said to possess such vast merits.Originally posted by Thusness:Well said and well quoted sinweiy.
Now, can luminosity arise without conditions? Is there a time where there is a bright, true, essential, magnificent mind without conditions?
Yet, without true experience, these are just words that can be parroted.
And yet, even with "true" experience, as Ridzin Jigme Lingpa said, (not his actual words, but something like that...) " Experience is like a mist, it vanishes instantaneously. " At the split second of remembering the experience of luminosity/bliss/emptiness, the luminosity is so-called instantaneously obscured. Though by nature it had never been obscurable, nor destroyable, thus it could never be purified, nor can it be found, discovered, realized nor attained.
The confidence in one's spontaneously/primordially present luminosity is necessary in the path. But it's not to be sought, for there's nothing to be sought, obtained or given up.
Can luminosity arise without conditions? Arising itself is conditioned, thus non-arising luminosity is unconditioned. However, these are mere words and intellectual romanticizing of the path. For how can the effortful practitioner accept that at the "destination" nothing is attained?
The one who truly experiences does not need to answer this question, and does not need to avoid answering this question either. Truly liberated and unbound. Perhaps that is why Mahakashyapa smiled when Buddha picked up the flower. Sounds romantic, but not a big deal "really".
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i also agreed that True/bright/luminous mind is beginless and unconditioned. yet IT do have the "Function" of conditioning all existence. True/bright/luminous mind without a function of conditioning, is no longer said to be True/bright/luminous anymore per se.Originally posted by Thusness:
Now, can luminosity arise without conditions? Is there a time where there is a bright, true, essential, magnificent mind without conditions?It is the primal bright essence of consciousness that can bring forth all conditions.
True/bright/luminous mind is like a source sun with an ability of shining, and all conditions are like sunlight which are emitted from the sun. Sun and sunlight come spontaneously together.
Just like we say Sunyata is form/existence; form/existence is sunyata (sound better in chinese), w/o form there's no sunyata, w/o sunyata there's no form.
sunyata can be associated with True mind while form/existence can be associated with conditions. they are although two yet they are not two per se.
that say in an similie, i recalled also in Shurangama Sutra, that the Light is already switched on, we thought it's not On, when we seek enlightenment, and we go and turn the switch, unnoticely we are actually turning it Off instead.
imho,
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Yes _Wonderer_,
As Ridzin Jigme Lingpa said “Experience is like a mist, it vanishes instantaneously.” But in lightning flash moment, it reappears with perfect lucidity and vividness. Still nothing lost and nothing attain.
Yes very true. A “True experience” is better than a thousand words but it is also the very “true experience” of the Brilliance Bright that has blinded Mystics of all ages. The Brilliance Bright is more vivid then we can imagine. In All IT is seen and In All IT is experienced. Being vividly bright it also serves as the “condition” that obscures its very own Emptiness nature.
Lastly, there is a question, but No-One is there to answer.
Buddha picks a flower, Mahakashyapa smiles.
Thusness hits the keyboard, keyboard-sounds.
“Da Da Da”, how CLEAR. Luminosity smiles. -
Yes Sinweiy,Originally posted by sinweiy:True/bright/luminous mind is like a source sun with an ability of shining, and all conditions are like sunlight which are emitted from the sun. Sun and sunlight come spontaneously together.
Just like we say Sunyata is form/existence; form/existence is sunyata (sound better in chinese), w/o form there's no sunyata, w/o sunyata there's no form.
sunyata can be associated with True mind while form/existence can be associated with conditions. they are although two yet they are not two per se.
that say in an similie, i recalled also in Shurangama Sutra, that the Light is already switched on, we thought it's not On, when we seek enlightenment, and we go and turn the switch, unnoticely we are actually turning it Off instead.
imho,
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The Buddha out of infinite compassion spoke the lucid luminosity, the unconditioned Obviousness, the pure. But the self-luminous awareness from beginningless time has never been separated and cannot be separated from its conditions. They are not two -- This is, That is. Along with the conditions, Luminosity shines without a center and arises without a place.
No where to be found. This is the Tatagatha Nature.