dependent origination and middle way
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quote:
His Holiness praises the following verses for their essential meaning:
Whatever is dependently arisen
That is explained to be emptiness.
That, being a dependent designation
Is itself the middle way.
Since there is no phenomenon
That is not dependently arising,
There is no phenomenon
That is not empty (of true existence).
http://www.dalailama.com/page.176.htm
what can you understand by "That, being a dependent designation
Is itself the middle way."?
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ok...found this...
...dependent origination as an expression of the Middle Way. During one of our earlier lectures, we had occasion to refer to the Middle Way, and on that occasion we confined ourselves to only perhaps the most basic meaning. We have said that the Middle Way means avoiding the extreme of indulgence in pleasures of the senses and the extreme of self-mortification. In that context the Middle Way is synonymous with moderation. Now in the context of dependent origination, the Middle Way has another meaning which is related to the earlier meaning but deeper. In this context the Middle Way means avoiding the extremes of eternalism and nihilism. How is this so? The flame in the oil lamp exists dependent upon the oil and the wick. When either of these are absent, the flame will be extinguished. Therefore, the flame is neither permanent nor independent. Similarly, this personality of ours depends upon a combination of conditions - defilements and actions. It is neither permanent nor independent. Recognizing the conditioned nature of our personality, we avoid the extreme of eternalism, of affirming the existence of an independent, permanent self. Alternatively, recognizing that this personality, this life does not arise through accident, or mere chance, but is instead conditioned by corresponding causes, we avoid the extreme of nihilism, the extreme of denying the relation between action and consequence. While nihilism is the primary cause of rebirth in states of woe and is to be rejected, eternalism too is not conducive to liberation. One who clings to the extreme of eternalism will perform wholesome actions and will be reborn in states of happiness, as a human being or even as a god, but he will never attain liberation. Through avoiding these two extremes, through understanding the Middle Way, we can achieve happiness in this life and in the future life by performing wholesome actions and avoiding unwholesome actions, and eventually we can achieve liberation.
http://www.buddhanet.net/funbud12.htm
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Law of Dependent Origination...
The Law of Dependent Origination is one of the most important teachings of the Buddha, and it is also very profound. The Buddha has often expressed His experience of Enlightenment in one of two ways, either in terms of having understood the Four Noble Truths, or in terms of having understood the nature of the dependent origination. However, more people have heard about the Four Noble Truths and can discuss it than the Law of Dependent Origination, which is just as important.
Although the actual insight into dependent origination arises with spiritual maturity, it is still possible for us to understand the principle involved. The basis of dependent origination is that life or the world is built on a set of relations, in which the arising and cessation of factors depend on some other factors which condition them. This principle can be given in a short formula of four lines:
When this is, that is. This arising, that arises. When this is not, that is not. This ceasing, that ceases.
On this principle of interdependence and relativity rests the arising, continuity and cessation of existence. This principle is known as the Law of Dependent Origination in Pali, Paticca-samuppada. This law emphasizes an important principle that all phenomena in this universe are relative, conditioned states and do not arise independently of supportive conditions. A phenomenon arises because of a combination of conditions which are present to support its arising. And the phenomenon will cease when the conditions and components supporting its arising change and no longer sustain it. The presence of these supportive conditions, in turn, depend on other factors for their arising, sustenance and disappearance. -
The Law of Dependence Origination is a realistic way of understanding the universe and is the Buddhist equivalent of Einstein's Theory of Relativity. The fact that everything is nothing more than a set of relations is consistent with the modern scientific view of the material world. Since everything is conditioned, relative, and interdependent, there is nothing in this world which could be regarded as a permanent entity, variously regarded as an ego or an eternal soul, which many people believe in.
The phenomenal world is built on a set of relations, but is this the way we would normally understand the world to be? We create fictions of its permanency in our minds because of our desires. It is almost natural for human beings to cling to what they consider as beautiful or desirable, and to reject what is ugly or undesirable. Being subjected to the forces of greed and hatred, they are misled by delusion, clouded by the illusion of the permanency of the object they cling to or reject. Therefore, it is hard for us to realize that the world is like a bubble or mirage, and is not the kind of reality we believe it to be. We do not realize that it is unreal in actuality. It is like a ball of fire, which when whirled around rapidly, can for a time, create the illusion of a circle.
The fundamental principle at work in dependent origination is that of cause and effect. In dependent origination, what actually takes place in the causal process is described in detail. To illustrate the nature of dependent origination of the things around us, let us consider an oil lamp. The flame in an oil lamp burns dependent upon the oil and the wick. When the oil and the wick are present, the flame in an oil lamp burns. If either of these is absent, the flame will cease to burn. This example illustrates the principle of dependent origination with respect to a flame in an oil lamp. Or in an example of a plant, it is dependent upon the seed, earth, moisture, air and sunlight for the plant to grow. All these phenomena arise dependent upon a number of causal factors, and not independently. This is the principle of dependent origination.
In the Dhamma, we are interested to know how the principle of dependent origination is applied to the problem of suffering and rebirth. The issue is how dependent origination can explain why we are still going round in Samsara, or explain the problem of suffering and how we can be free from suffering. It is not meant to be a description of the origin or evolution of the universe. Therefore, one must not be mistaken into assuming that ignorance, the first factor mentioned in the dependent origination, is the first cause. Since everything arises because of some preceding causes, there can be no first cause.
According to the Law of Dependent Origination, there are twelve factors which account for the continuity of existence birth after birth. The factors are as follows:
Through ignorance are conditioned volitional actions or kamma-formations.
Through volitional actions is conditioned consciousness.
Through consciousness are conditioned mental and physical phenomena.
Through mental and physical phenomena are conditioned the six faculties(i.e., five physical sense-organs and mind).
Through the six faculties is conditioned (sensorial and mental) contact.
Through (sensorial and mental)contact is conditioned sensation.
Through sensation is conditioned desire, 'thirst".
Through desire ('thirst') is conditioned clinging.
Through clinging is conditioned the process of becoming.
Through the process of becoming is conditioned birth.
Through birth are conditioned decay, death, sorrow, lamentation, pain, grief and despair.
This is how life arises, exists and continues, and how suffering arises. These factors may be understood as sequentially spanning over a period of three life-times; the past life, the present life, and the future life. In the dependent origination, ignorance and mental formation belong to the past life, and represent the conditions that are responsible for the occurrence of this life. The following factors, namely, consciousness, mental and physical phenomena, the six senses, contact, sensation, desire, clinging and becoming, are factors involved in the present life. The last two factors, birth and decay and death, belong to the future life. -
In this law, the first factor of Ignorance gives rise to Volitional Activities (or kamma). Ignorance means not knowing or understanding the true nature of our existence. Through Ignorance, good or evil deeds are performed which will lead a person to be reborn. Rebirth can occur in various planes of existence: the human world, the celestial or higher planes, or even suffering planes depending of the quality of a person's kamma. When a person dies, his Volitional Activities will condition the arising of Consciousness, in this case to mean the re-linking Consciousness which arises as the first spark of a new life in the process of re-becoming.
Once the re-linking Consciousness has taken place, life starts once again. Dependent on the Consciousness, there arise Mind and Matter, that is, a new 'being' is born. Because there are Mind and Matter, there arise the six Sense-organs (the sixth sense is the mind itself). With the arising of the Sense-organs, there arises Contact. Contact with what? Contact with sights, sounds, smells, tastes, tactile objects, and mental objects.
These sights, sounds, smells, tastes, tactile objects, and mental objects can be beautiful, pleasing and enticing. On the other hand, they can be ugly and distasteful. Therefore, dependent on Contact arises Sensations: feelings that are pleasant, unpleasant or neutral. Because of these feelings, the laws of attraction (greed) and repulsion (aversion) are now set in motion. Beings are naturally attracted to pleasant objects and repelled by unpleasant objects. As a result of Sensation, Desire arises. A person desires and thirsts for forms that are beautiful and enticing; sounds that are beautiful and enticing; tastes, smells, touch, and objects which the mind regards as beautiful and enticing. From these Desires, he develops very strong Clinging to the beautiful object (or strongly rejects the repulsive object). Now because of this Clinging and attachment, the next life is conditioned and there arises Becoming. In other words, the processes of Becoming are set in motion by Clinging.
The next link in this chain of Dependent Origination is that Becoming conditions the arising of Birth. And finally, dependence on Birth arise Decay and Death, followed by Sorrow, Lamentation, Pain, Grief and Despair.
The process can be ceased if the formula is taken in the reverse order: Through the complete cessation of ignorance(through the cultivation of Insight), volitional activities or kamma-formations cease; through the cessation of volitional activities, consciousness ceases; °‚ through the cessation of birth, the other factors of decay, death, sorrow, etc., cease. Therefore, one can be free from the rounds of rebirth through the eradication of ignorance.
To re-iterate what was mentioned earlier, this doctrine of Dependent Origination merely explains the processes of Birth and Death, and is not a theory of the evolution of the world. It deals with the Cause of re-birth and Suffering, but in no way attempts to show the absolute Origin of Life. Ignorance in Dependent Origination is the ignorance of the Four Noble Truths. It is very important for us to understand the Four Noble Truths because it is the ignorance of these Truths that has trapped us all in the endless cycle of birth and death.
According to the Buddha, while He was speaking to Ananda: It is by their not being able to comprehend the Dependent Origination, that people are entangled like a ball of cotton, and not being able to see the Truth, are always afflicted by Sorrow, born often into conditions that are dismal and dreary, where confusion and prolonged suffering prevail. And, they do not know how to disentangle themselves to get out.
source: http://www3.webng.com/gotaro/Page25.shtml -
Originally posted by sinweiy:
I think a very simple example would be: That all things are dependently arisen, empty of inherent existence, it is free from notions of existence and non-existence, and any other extremes such as eternalism and nihilism, and so on.
quote:
His Holiness praises the following verses for their essential meaning:
Whatever is dependently arisen
That is explained to be emptiness.
[b]That, being a dependent designation
Is itself the middle way.
Since there is no phenomenon
That is not dependently arising,
There is no phenomenon
That is not empty (of true existence).
http://www.dalailama.com/page.176.htm
what can you understand by "That, being a dependent designation
Is itself the middle way."?
/\
[/b] -
Originally posted by sinweiy:
The Way is perfect like vast space, where nothing is lacking and nothing is in excess. Indeed it is due to our choosing to accept or reject that we do not see the true nature of things. Live neither in the entanglements of outer things, nor in the inner feeling of emptiness. Be serene in the oneness of things, and such erroneous views will disappear by themselves. When you try to stop activity to achieve passivity, your very effort fills you with activity. As long as you remain in one extreme or the other, you will never know Oneness.
quote:
His Holiness praises the following verses for their essential meaning:
Whatever is dependently arisen
That is explained to be emptiness.
[b]That, being a dependent designation
Is itself the middle way.
Since there is no phenomenon
That is not dependently arising,
There is no phenomenon
That is not empty (of true existence).
http://www.dalailama.com/page.176.htm
what can you understand by "That, being a dependent designation
Is itself the middle way."?
/\
[/b]
Quoted...
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quote:
His Holiness praises the following verses for their essential meaning:
Whatever is dependently arisen
That is explained to be emptiness.
[b]That, being a dependent designation
Is itself the middle way.
Since there is no phenomenon
That is not dependently arising,
There is no phenomenon
That is not empty (of true existence).
http://www.dalailama.com/page.176.htmOriginally posted by sinweiy:
... about the part in bold... what it is saying is this...
what can you understand by "That, being a dependent designation
Is itself the middle way."?
/\
[/b]
Whatever is dependently arising....
When you say that, when you say the words: "Whatever is dependently arising...."
That, being a dependent designation. means giving "Whatever" the designation of being "dependently arising....", the giving of the designation "Is itself the middle way."
Why is it when you designate "Whatever" as "dependently arising...." that "Is itself the middle way." ?
Why?
In order for you to designate "Whatever" as "dependently arising...." ... you need to take the middle way... you need to accept the middle way concept, you have realized the middle way concept... because if you are dualistic, you cannot designate "Whatever" as "dependently arising...."
So the question is, can you say the words "Whatever is dependently arising...." knowing full well the significance of the statement or are you just repeating (cut and paste) what other people say...
... are you like a parrot and you are simply repeating the words "Whatever is dependently arising...."
How to tell the difference whether you are a parrot or you understand the phrase "Whatever is dependently arising.... " ?
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How to tell the difference whether you are a parrot or you have realized for yourself that "Whatever is dependently arising.... " ?
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Originally posted by AndrewPKYap:
true. though using parrot as example, a bit over liao.
So the question is, can you say the words "Everything is independently arising...." knowing full well the significance of the statement or are you just repeating (cut and paste) what other people say...
... are you like a parrot and you are simply repeating the words "Everything is independently arising...."
How to tell the difference whether you are a parrot or you understand the phrase "Everything is independently arising.... " ? 
there's the repeating one as u say, and then there's even the realisation based on understanding(jie3 wu4) one (wah, understand also not enough). and then the realisation based on verifing (zheng4 wu4).
the zheng4 wu4 one is the one that really have the benefit or quality of the Englightenment. i guess need to go into practice and meditation or jhana state?.
http://buddhism.sgforums.com/?action=thread_display&thread_id=291219
one who really zheng4 wu4 is one who can treat everybody as if treating itself.
there's no greed(attachment), no hatred(dualism) and delusion(wandering thoughts). it really is a true bliss.
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I changed the words... "everything" to "whatever" and "independently" to "dependently"... hahaha my bad...
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you might not realize it, but when you said "treat everybody as if treating itself" while it is a noble and good thought and idea... it is actually dualistic...Originally posted by sinweiy:true. though using parrot as example, a bit over liao.
there's the repeating one as u say, and then there's even the realisation based on understanding(jie3 wu4) one (wah, understand also not enough). and then the realisation based on verifing (zheng4 wu4).
the zheng4 wu4 one is the one that really have the benefit or quality of the Englightenment. i guess need to go into practice and meditation or jhana state?.
http://buddhism.sgforums.com/?action=thread_display&thread_id=291219
one who really zheng4 wu4 is one who can treat everybody as if treating itself.
there's no greed(attachment), no hatred(dualism) and delusion(wandering thoughts). it really is a true bliss.
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What you should say is, "treat people appropriately... " and when you treat people appropriately depending on how the person "arisen" (dependent arising, remember) you will treat the person with compassion... but then compassion, the "act" of compassion, dependently arises as well... when you treat people appropriately, it will be compassionate, even if to other people watching might think you to be very cruel...
... whatever is dependently arising... including compassion...
... when you say "treat everybody as if treating itself. ..." sorry, but you are living according to rules and not dependent arising...
... rules are good but you have to go beyond rules into dependent arising, emptiness... -
Originally posted by AndrewPKYap:
see huh, i purily say "treat everybody as if treating itself".
[b]you might not realize it, but when you said "treat everybody as if treating itself" while it is a noble and good thought and idea... it is actually dualistic...
What you should say is, "treat people appropriately... " and when you treat people appropriately depending on how the person "arisen" (dependent arising, remember) you will treat the person with compassion... but then compassion, the "act" of compassion, dependently arises as well... when you treat people appropriately, it will be compassionate, even if to other people watching might think you to be very cruel...
... whatever is dependently arising... including compassion...
... when you say "treat everybody as if treating itself. ..." sorry, but you are living according to rules and not dependent arising...
... rules are good but you have to go beyond rules into dependent arising, emptiness...
dualism, rules and all sorts of added information is you see/add wan, i s-a-y already, i let it go 40 minutes ago. there's no wandering thoughts.
non dualism is also dualism.
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hahaha... you are good...Originally posted by sinweiy:see huh, i purily say "treat everybody as if treating itself".
dualism, rules and all sorts of added information is you see/add wan, i s-a-y already, i let it go 40 minutes ago. there's no wandering thoughts.
non dualism is also dualism.
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Hi, the 8 jhanas, or samatha jhanas we usually know are not necessary to deepen insight.Originally posted by sinweiy:i guess need to go into practice and meditation or jhana state?.
http://buddhism.sgforums.com/?action=thread_display&thread_id=291219
However, Insight-Absorption, insight jhanas, are needed. This is a different matter..
I wrote in another topic based on what Thusness has said,
Practice is about losing oneself and all merely happens as if 'you' never existed. One must eventually undergo a complete psychological death, and be completely dead in the living. As the saying goes -- die before you die. At that moment, deep dreamless sleep where the self completely subsides, is no longer different from conscious state. There is no more attachment, no more unwillingness and grasping to the need to 'exist' consciously. One requires fearlessness to dissolve this habit of 'self-preservation'... and when that is done, samatha (or samadhi) and insight becomes one.
And as Thusness just posted in Longchen's three new articles,
Whatever the practice whether it is by way of directly sensing contraction or by insight into our emptiness nature or by boddhisattva practice of parimatas, one must ultimately give up the sense of self entirely. The sensation of the overcoming the bond of 'mine' is like mere crytal clear happening as if 'you' never existed. We must be completely fearless during meditation in giving up 'ownership' of our body, mind even that 'concious' portion. Experience that 'fearlessness' and 'openness' and be willing to let go of whatever holdings during meditation. Then nothing else matter and nothing can imobilize the flow. In silence, there is mere manifestation and in acting, there is mere action/activity. It is a very important experience but requires stability of non-dual insight to a certain degree otherwise there is no true giving up; even if there is, the giving up will end being a trance instead of pure presence.
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The Samadhi of Pure Presence is not about entering any trance states or samatha absorptions such as the 8 jhanas, so it is of different nature.
It is 'insight to the point of absorption'.
As Thusness also wrote before, It is some sort of absorption as in the case of concentration but it is more of 'clarity till the point of absorption'. -
Originally posted by AndrewPKYap:
say just say..don't have to think so much - --> Buddha's mirror like wisdom standard.
[b]hahaha... you are good...
me? still slave of conditions. no good.
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Is it possible to disengage from reactivity? The third noble truth is Shakyamuni's powerful answer, yes. He saw that the sense of self, of "I," is the basis of emotional reaction, and that "I" as a real entity doesn't exist. In other words, when the conditioning that underlies the sense of separation, the false duality of subject and object, is dismantled, suffering ceases.Originally posted by sinweiy:see huh, i purily say "treat everybody as if treating itself".
dualism, rules and all sorts of added information is you see/add wan, i s-a-y already, i let it go 40 minutes ago. there's no wandering thoughts.
non dualism is also dualism.
/\
The more i want to react, the more mental suffering i have leh. So to end it, is to stop associating myself with "it".. still trying.
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if you "don't think so much"... you cannot teach... you give up some things to get some other things... if you give up everything, you cannot teach...
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sure, the I does not exist, but then, to say that the I does not exist, is to acknowledge that the I exists...Originally posted by Isis:Is it possible to disengage from reactivity? The third noble truth is Shakyamuni's powerful answer, yes. He saw that the sense of self, of "I," is the basis of emotional reaction, and that "I" as a real entity doesn't exist. In other words, when the conditioning that underlies the sense of separation, the false duality of subject and object, is dismantled, suffering ceases.
The more i want to react, the more mental suffering i have leh. So to end it, is to stop associating myself with "it".. still trying. 
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Originally posted by AndrewPKYap:
thing is...give up everything, Buddha gain/know everything. not easy to understand wan.
if you "don't think so much"... you cannot teach... you give up some things to get some other things... if you give up everything, you cannot teach... [/b]
say like the mirror when not disturb, it don't think or react. when object go in front of mirror, mirror just reflect naturally. when object goes away, mirror return to not thinking state. did the mirror moved? what is moving is the object.
the teaching of Buddha simply flow from the non-thinking mind when reacting to conditions. what's thinking is the person asking Buddha. Buddha just reflect the prefect answer. it's spontaneous. when nobody ask, Buddha just return to the "not knowing" state. yeah, not just 'don't think', but 'don't know'.
'don't know' is know all.
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His Holiness agrees with a listener that this is tough, exclaiming that he has spent many years grappling with the idea of emptiness. He says he doesn't claim to have realised it, but has got a whiff of it, just as you may catch the smell of a good meal without eating it.
https://www.dalailama.com/page.176.htm
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recalling: Dzongsar Khyentse Rinpoche (Words of My Perfect Teacher ) -- one person asked, got enlightened? Khyentse Norbu pause and reply shaking his head, "still a victim of conditions." (even with so much practice and understanding)
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my master (chin kung), know so many Dharma stuff, even ghosts looking for His liberation. a bodhisattva to me. wat He say? "I capacity of the lower class."
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hmm..
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A student once asked his teacher, "Master, what is enlightenment?"
The ch'an master replied, "When hungry, eat. When tired, sleep."
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hahaha you are good...Originally posted by sinweiy:thing is...give up everything, Buddha gain/know everything. not easy to understand wan.
say like the mirror when not disturb, it don't think or react. when object go in front of mirror, mirror just reflect naturally. when object goes away, mirror return to not thinking state. did the mirror moved? what is moving is the object.
the teaching of Buddha simply flow from the non-thinking mind when reacting to conditions. what's thinking is the person asking Buddha. Buddha just reflect the prefect answer. it's spontaneous. when nobody ask, Buddha just return to the "not knowing" state. yeah, not just 'don't think', but 'don't know'.
'don't know' is know all.
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... but don't you think that the middle way is not to give up everything and not to cling on to everything?
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... or to put it another way.. ... don't you think that the middle way is to cling to everything AND cling to nothing (emptiness)?
... you cling to everything because when you cling to nothing (emptiness), you are clinging to everything when you cling to nothing (emptiness)... because everything is nothing (emptiness)...