where do we go after we die?
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what do buddhists believe in?
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Originally posted by ~b1RD_m4N~:
what do buddhists believe in?
If you are lucky enough, you get to go to a casket =)
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Wah this question hard to answer
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- What
is karma?
Karma generally means actions, referring to the deeds committed by human beings through their body, speech and mind. It encompasses all aspects of our conduct, virtuous and evil, essential and trivial. It could be karma committed in our past lives or the present life. The karma committed by an individual is called "individual", while that committed collectively by a group is called "common karma".
- What is the relationship between our karma and our life?
Sentient beings (including people) transmigrate in the Six Realms due to their karmic forces. A person who does not commit evil deeds through his body, speech and mind, and instead performs good deeds, shall be able to be reborn as a human being again in the next life. The wealthy people must have been charitable in their previous life. Those who are dignified in their looks must have had practiced endurance, kindness, humility and courtesy towards others, or they had offered fresh flowers to Buddha. People who are seldom sick, are healthy, and live a long life, must have had abstained from killing and hurting other sentient beings in their previous lives. A person who has done a lot of good deeds and accumulated a lot of merits, shall be able to enjoy heavenly blessings in the deva realm. If one has done a lot of good deeds, but he is hot-tempered and quarrelsome then he shall be reborn to the asura realm. These three realms, namely, the humanity, deva and asura realms are called the three virtuous realms.
If a person is always committing evil deeds through his body, speech and mind, then his next life would be in the animal, hungry ghost or the hell realm to suffer his dues. Therefore, it is not a certainty that a person will become a ghost after he dies, but depending on his conduct whilst he was alive, there is always a possibility that he could become one.
- What
is karma?
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BTW, rebirth does not happen to everyone.
Those that have attained enlightenment and are liberated from ignorance and afflictions do not have to be reborn again, they have transcended the cycle of rebirth and sufferings, and achieves Nirvana. And many people have attained enlightenment.
This is what we aim for, not merely avoidance of bad rebirths or to do good and aim for a better rebirth.
To attain nirvana, we have to awaken wisdom to the true nature of reality, and as a result purify our minds of all ignorance and defilements. It is like the layer of clouds obscuring the sun (i.e. our true nature) is removed to reveal our true nature as luminosity [clarity] and emptiness inseparable.
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So tht means, once, we die if we sin too much, we will banish forever in the depths of hell??
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Originally posted by seotiblizzard:
So tht means, once, we die if we sin too much, we will banish forever in the depths of hell??
No. Unlike Christians, we do not believe in eternal hell nor heaven. All conditioned phenomena are impermanent. Therefore, rebirth in heaven is not 'safe', because eventually you will fall back.
But the 'lifespan' in hell and heaven are generally longer (and depends on which 'level' of heaven or hell and also one's karma) than life on earth.
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And there are many understandings heaven. Most Christians understanding is some kind of physical place far far from us, but if it is a physical incarnation, in Buddhist understanding it cannot be 'eternal' as some of them have claimed.
However the Christian mystics (which is a rare minority) have a different understanding and took what Jesus said seriously when he said that the kingdom of God cannot be pointed as here or there, but rather is within and all around us. Actually Jesus himself is one of the greatest mystic in the world, but most do not understand his teachings, and many of his teachings are disorted. For the mystics, they take the true heaven to be the deathless realm only when the nature of God is realised, and that God is no longer seen as some entity separate from oneself but as inseparable from one's being. I no longer live, but Christ lives in me! (Gal. 2.20)
But that is the mystic's understanding. They are closer to Buddhism in some ways, but not exactly same...
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Icic. Got it.
One thing i dont understand is.
Why do we get punish for our sins which were did on earth?
As in who do we live for? If we live for ourselves, who is there to control?
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Originally posted by seotiblizzard:
Icic. Got it.
One thing i dont understand is.
Why do we get punish for our sins which were did on earth?
As in who do we live for? If we live for ourselves, who is there to control?
Karma is a natural law, karma means actions, and in the scientific world we know that every action gets a reaction. Karma, volition, forms imprints which gets 'stored' in our 8th consciousness and ripen much later.
When we sleep, the things we experience in life recorded in 8th consciousness as imprints and seeds turn into a realm of symbolic experience.
In time of death, when we enter the bardo, it is very similar to the situation we experience in dreams. In fact the dream state is a kind of bardo itself. The Tibetan Book of the Dead is quite interesting in this regard as it details the process of death. And btw, all those near death experiences are also very similar to what is being described there.
And when we experience these kind of symbolic experiences, sometimes seeing deities, Buddhas, or demons, alot of these things... and if he is a Christian lets say, he may not see Buddha but Jesus instead, due to the seeds in his 8th consciousness...
And what we experience at that time may be a kind of fruition of karma... if we get attached to these things, it can propel our rebirth. Hence karma WILL influence our rebirth... have to be careful.
Our karma are imprints and 'seeds' of 8th consciousness... when imprints (cause) + conditions are met, karmic effect ripens.
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Something by longchen recently:
The grips and control of unconscious and subconscious karmic pattern is extremely strong and incredibly numerous. Without meditation, this tendencies are almost 100% controlling the behaviour of a person. It is that strong.
Also, the events that happen in your life are 'controlled' by the subconscious impulses that are 'held' very deeply into the consciousness. You can call this the karma effects.
That is why dreams can be used to foretell events that are about to happen. In the dream state, the physical 'realm' is momentarily suspended to allow for a different type of conditions to arise... in this case the dream state. The dream state is a symbolic representation of the karmic and intention imprints and tendencies that are held within the deepest subsconscious. This deepest subconscious should be the same as the alaya consciousness.
What happen is that the dream plays a story with all the karmic influences symbolically represented. These karmic influences are actually about to surface and manifest soon... that is why they manifest as dreams first. Next, within a few weeks or months, the karma consequence manifest in the 'physical realm'.
From my understanding and experience, the deepest subconscious (alaya consciousness?) is not accessible without meditation. In the deepest subconscious is 'held' the original state of the 'imprints' and 'intentions'. The deepest subconscious with its pure imprints can actually be very different from the manifested personality. The 'reasons' for the rebirth are also felt in that realm.
just my opinion only.
PS: when i use the word 'realm' please understand that it is not any place elsewhere. It is mainly for easy explanation.
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Oooh. ok. Hai got it.
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http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bardo_Thodol
...The Bardo Thodol differentiates the intermediate state between lives into three bardos:
- The chikhai bardo or "bardo of the moment of death", which features the experience of the "clear light of reality", or at least the nearest approximation of which one is spiritually capable.
- The chonyid bardo or "bardo of the experiencing of reality", which features the experience of visions of various Buddha forms (or, again, the nearest approximations of which one is capable).
- The sidpa bardo or "bardo of rebirth", which features karmically impelled hallucinations which eventually result in rebirth. (Typically imagery of men and women passionately entwined.)
The Bardo Thodol also mentions three other bardos: those of "life" (or ordinary waking consciousness), of "dhyana" (meditation), and of "dream" (the dream state during normal sleep)
Together these "six bardos" form a classification of states of consciousness into six broad types. Any state of consciousness can form a type of "intermediate state", intermediate between other states of consciousness. Indeed, one can consider any momentary state of consciousness a bardo, since it lies between our past and future existences; it provides us with the opportunity to experience reality, which is always present but obscured by the projections and confusions that are due to our previous unskillful actions...
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I wonder if Longchen has read the Bardo Thogal (i.e. Tibetan Book of the Dead) before?
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I'm personally not a Vajrayanist Buddhist and personally never read Tibetan Book of the Dead, so if anyone has read it and has any comments or disagreement can voice out. But I personally find this article quite interesting.
http://www.near-death.com/experiences/buddhism01.html
The Tibetan Book of the Dead
The
Tibetan Book of the
Dead, whose actual title is "The Great Liberation upon Hearing in the Intermediate State"
or "Bardo Thodol", is traditionally believed to be the work of the legendary Padma Sambhava in the 8th century A.D.
The book acts as a guide for the dead during the state that intervenes death and the next rebirth.
He is considered to be one of the first persons to bring Buddhism to Tibet.
The Bardo Thodol is a guide that is
read aloud to the dead while they are in the state between death and
reincarnation in order for them to recognize the nature of
their mind and attain liberation from the cycle of rebirth.The Bardo Thodol teaches that once awareness is freed from the body, it creates its own reality as one would experience in a dream. This dream occurs in various phases (bardos) in ways both wonderful and terrifying. Overwhelming peaceful and wrathful visions and deities appear. Since the deceased's awareness is in confusion of no longer being connected to a physical body, it needs help and guidance in order that enlightenment and liberation occurs. The Bardo Thodol teaches how we can attain Nirvana by recognizing the heavenly realms instead of entering into the lower realms where the cycle of birth and rebirth continue.
The following is a description of the bardo realms that one travels through after death.
The First Bardo
The first bardo comes at the very moment of death, when there dawns the Clear Light of the Ultimate Reality. This is the very content and substance of the state of liberation, if only the soul can recognize it and act in a way to remain in that state. The instructions intended to be read at the moment of the person's death are designed to help him do this. He is told, first of all, to embrace this supreme experience not in a selfish and egoistic way but rather with love and compassion for all sentient beings. This will aid him in the second step, which is to realize that his own mind and self is identical with the Clear Light, implying that he himself IS the Ultimate Reality, "the All-good Buddha", transcending time, eternity, and all creation. If he can recognize this while in this supreme state at the moment of death, he will attain liberation - that is, he will remain in the Clear Light forever. This condition is called the "Dharmakaya", the highest spiritual body of the Buddha.
Most souls, however, will fail to do this. They will be pulled down by the weight of their karma into the second stage of the first bardo, called the Secondary Clear Light seen immediately after death. At this point, there are separate instructions to be read according to the spiritual condition of the person while in life. For an individual advanced in meditation and other spiritual practices, there is repeated over and over the same instructions as at the moment of death, enjoining him to recognize himself as the Dharmakaya. For a person who was still at a student-level on the spiritual path, there is the injunction for him to meditate on his "tutelary deity", that is, the particular god for whom he performed devotional practices while alive. Finally, "if the deceased be of the common folk", unpracticed in any spiritual disciplines, the instruction is to "meditate upon the Great Compassionate Lord", which is to say an "Avatar" worshipped by the multitude, equivalent to Jesus as conceived by the average Christian.
The Second BardoIf the soul is still not liberated at this stage, it will descend into the second bardo, which is said to last for two weeks. The second bardo is also divided into two parts; in the first, the soul of the deceased encounters what are referred to as "the Peaceful Deities." On each of the seven days, a particular Buddha-being will appear in radiance and glory, with a bevy of angelic attendants. At the same time, on each day in turn there will shine a light from one of the six worlds of the Buddhist universe, called "Lokas" (the basic meaning is "place"; our English words "location" and "locale" are derived from the same Sanskrit root).
On the first day of the second bardo, there appears to the soul the divine Father-Mother - that is, the supreme deity of the universe, transcending all dualities, including the division into sexes. The next step in the destiny of the soul is determined by his reaction to this God. If his life on earth was well lived, he will now be in a state of purity and grace, and he will enter into the joy of the God and attain liberation. If on the other hand he has lived an ignoble and impious life, the effects of his bad karma will cause the intense radiant presence of the God to strike fear and terror in his heart, and he will be drawn instead to the softer light of the Deva-Loka, which has dawned along with this deity. This is still a fairly attractive fate, for the Devas are the Gods (or angels), and their Loka is equivalent to the Christian heaven; however, the Buddhist teaching is that even heaven is not the highest spiritual objective, because it is still only a temporary state in the manifest universe. Liberation is believed to be the only final and permanent resting-place for the soul, an un-manifest state beyond all existence.
On the second day, there appears the second-highest God in the Buddhist pantheon - in fact, he is actually the Second Person in the literal Buddhist Holy Trinity. At the same time, there dawns a smoky light from hell; and here we note that, just as the Buddhist heaven is not a permanent, eternal state, neither is its hell. Even the most wretched souls will eventually work their way out of even the deepest pit of hell, just as even the highest and purest souls will eventually lose their footing in heaven and descend again into the cycle of death and rebirth. Liberation is the only way out.
Once again, if the soul responds to the "dazzling white light" of the second God with the joy of a pure heart, he will be liberated thereby; but if he specifically reacts with ANGER from having indulged in this vice on earth, he will recoil from the light in fear and be drawn into hell.
The pattern is repeated on the third day; this time it is the fault if egotism that will cause the soul to react to the God with fear, and he will be drawn to the human world, where his next incarnation will thereby take place. On the fourth day dawns the God of Eternal Life; if the soul has a negative reaction to him because of miserliness and attachment, he will be drawn toward rebirth in the Preta-Loka, a world of "hungry ghosts" who have huge stomachs and throats the size of pinholes, and so they wander about in a constant state of unsatisfied ravenous desire. On the fifth day comes God in the form of an Almighty Conqueror; this time it's jealousy that will unseat the soul, and he will be born into the Asura-Loka, a world of fierce warrior-deities (or demons). On the sixth day all the deities return and dawn together, along with the lights from all six Lokas. On the seventh day there appear the Knowledge-Holding Deities, who are more fierce and demonic-looking than those that have previously dawned; and in fact they are sort of a transitional element to the next stage of the second bardo, where the soul encounters the wrathful deities. Meanwhile, if because of stupidity the soul cannot face the Knowledge-Holding Deities, he is drawn toward the Brute-Loka - that is, he will be reborn on earth as an animal.
In the second week of the second bardo, the soul meets seven legions of Wrathful Deities: hideous, terrifying demons who advance upon him with flame and sword, drinking blood from human skulls, threatening to wreak unmerciful torture upon him, to maim, disembowel, decapitate and slay him. The natural tendency, of course, is for the soul to attempt to flee from these beings in stark, screaming, blood-curdled terror; but if he does, all is lost. The instructions at this stage of the Bardo are for the soul to have no fear, but rather to recognize that the Wrathful Deities are really the Peaceful Deities in disguise, their dark side manifesting as a result of his own evil karma. The soul is told to calmly face each demon in turn and visualize it as the deity it truly is, or else as his own tutelary deity; if he can do this, he will merge with the being and attain the second degree of Liberation, that lesser aspect of it which is now the best he can hope for here in the second bardo.
Furthermore, he is told to awaken to the fact that all these fearsome creatures are not real, but are merely illusions emanating from his own mind. If he can recognize this, they will vanish and he will be liberated. If he can't, he eventually wanders down to the third bardo.
The Third BardoIn the third bardo the soul encounters the Lord of Death, a fearsome demonic deity who appears in smoke and fire, and subjects the soul to a Judgment. If the dead person protests that he has done no evil, the Lord of Death holds up before him the Mirror of Karma, "wherein every good and evil act is vividly reflected." Now demons approach and begin to inflict torments and punishments upon the soul for his evil deeds. The instructions in the Bardo Thodol are for him to attempt to recognize the Voidness of all these beings, including the Lord of Death himself; the dead person is told that this entire scene unfolding around him is a projection from his own mind. Even here he can attain liberation by recognizing this.
The soul who is still not liberated after the Judgment will now be drawn remorselessly toward rebirth.
The lights of the six Lokas will dawn again; into one of these worlds the soul must be born, and the light of the one he is destined for will shine more brightly than the others. The soul is still experiencing the frightening apparitions and sufferings of the third bardo, and he feels that he will do anything to escape from this condition. He will seek shelter in what appear to be caves or hiding-places, but which are actually the entrances to wombs. He is warned of this by the text of the Bardo Thodol, and urged not to enter them, but to meditate upon the Clear Light instead; for it is still possible for him to achieve the third degree of liberation and avoid rebirth.
Finally there comes a point where it is no longer possible to attain liberation, and after this the soul is given instructions on how to choose the best womb for a favorable incarnation. The basic method is non-attachment: to try to rise above both attraction to worldly pleasures and repulsion from worldly ills.
The final words of the Bardo Thodol are: "Let virtue and goodness be perfected in every way."
"Be not fond of the dull smoke-colored light from hell." - Tibetan Book of the Dead
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p.s. there's a forummer here who encountered Yama (Lord of Death) in his meditation some years back... but I don't want to say who. Prior to that experience, he did not even know who is Yama! After his meditation he went to search for info about 'Yama', and only then he realised he is known as the Lord of Death.
But the forummer too says it is a mind illusion (a projection from his alaya)... perhaps serving a reminder that at that time he has not attained liberation, has not overcome death. Maybe not to be overly excited of his spiritual achievement yet? Just a guess...
I can't remember the exact conversation already, but (if I recall correctly), Yama was going like oh so that's the guy who has not overcome death?
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Originally posted by An Eternal Now:
And there are many understandings heaven. Most Christians understanding is some kind of physical place far far from us, but if it is a physical incarnation, in Buddhist understanding it cannot be 'eternal' as some of them have claimed.
However the Christian mystics (which is a rare minority) have a different understanding and took what Jesus said seriously when he said that the kingdom of God cannot be pointed as here or there, but rather is within and all around us. Actually Jesus himself is one of the greatest mystic in the world, but most do not understand his teachings, and many of his teachings are disorted. For the mystics, they take the true heaven to be the deathless realm only when the nature of God is realised, and that God is no longer seen as some entity separate from oneself but as inseparable from one's being. I no longer live, but Christ lives in me! (Gal. 2.20)
But that is the mystic's understanding. They are closer to Buddhism in some ways, but not exactly same...
what does 'mystic' mean?
Christians believe that you either go to heaven or hell. Hell = eternal suffering. And thing is, they do not need good deeds to go to heaven, you just need to believe and live the Christian way.
For Buddhism, does it mean that we donate $1000 to the poor, then we will be better off than the other person that donated $10 to the poor with a good heart?
And also, does it mean that say a person killed someone and they can still 'erase' that by doing other good things like helping someone?
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Originally posted by ~b1RD_m4N~:
what does 'mystic' mean?Note: just updated with correct article, pasted the wrong article just now.
This is a Buddhist forum, but for the sake of sharing knowledge I hope this is ok with others... to share certain articles on what Christian mysticism and Christian teachings point to. I'm however, not implying that Buddhism and Christianity are the same paths, because they are not really the same path. Christianity and all monotheistic religions are paths of submission to the divine, while Buddhism emphasizes the aspect of insight.
There is a serious lack of understanding of what mysticism is about, and probably most Christians you encounter will never even have heard of the word. Mysticism is at the heart of Christianity since its very beginning, many great Christians in history has been great mystics. Wherever there is Christianity, there are mystics/contemplatives.
And 'mystic' has nothing to do with occulticism, supernatural, or the weird weird stuff. Nothing of that sort. Read on, and you'll know.
http://www.frimmin.com/faith/mysticismintro.php
What is Mysticism?
To many modern Christians, words like "meditation," "mystic," and "mysticism" bring to mind Eastern religions, not Christianity. Certainly Eastern religions are known for their mysticism; however, mysticism is not only a vital part of the Christian heritage as well, but it is actually the core of Christian spirituality. Mysticism simply means the spirituality of the direct experience of God. It is the adventure of "the wild things of God."
The direct experience of God is a kind of knowing, which goes beyond intellectual understanding. It is not a matter of "belief." It is marked by love and joy, but it is not "emotional experience." In many ways, it is better described by what it is not. To describe what it is, we must use metaphors—the marriage of the soul to Christ, the death of the "old man" and birth of the "new man," being the "body of Christ."
Jesus proclaimed "I and the Father are one," (Jn. 10.30) showing the world what the union of God and man can be. Christian mysticism is about nothing else but this transforming union.
Christ is the sole end of Christian mysticism. Whereas all Christians have Christ, call on Christ, and can (or should) know Christ, the goal for the Christian mystic is to become Christ—to become as fully permeated with God as Christ is, thus becoming like him, fully human, and by the grace of God, also fully divine. In Christian teaching this doctrine is known by various names—theosis, divinization, deification, and transforming union.
A common misconception about mysticism is that it's about "mystical experiences," and there are many volumes on such experiences in religious literature. But true mysticism is not focussed on "experiences" (which come and go) but with the lasting experience of God, leading to the transformation of the believer into union with God.
A very, very, very short mystical apologetic.
To know God directly shows that mysticism is different from any passive or legalistic kind of Christianity. It means:
- That while we honor the Scriptures, we want to know God directly, not just through Scripture.
- While we respect our heritage of teachings about God, we want to know God directly, not through doctrines and teachings.
- While we gather in communal worship, we want to know God directly, not just through the Church.
Some readers may find this unsettling. Maybe you believe it doesn't apply to you, because you "know" that your church is purer and more correct than others. Even if that were true, is it a substitute for knowing God directly? Or, you might also feel that trusting the Bible alone gives you knowledge of God directly from the Source. But it was written by mystics, listening to God speaking his Word in their hearts. Is it possible for you to read it directly, without the conceptions of your language, time, culture, and personal history? Are you sure you wouldn't understand it very differently if you were reading it, say, in third-century Damascus?
The religion we call "Christianity" changes, but God is eternal. Mystical faith wants to know this unchanging God to whom Christianity leads us, the One behind the beliefs and the words, the One whom beliefs and words cannot describe. We want to follow Jesus' example more closely, and go beyond the religion about Jesus, and take the religion of Jesus: the knowledge of the Father and unconditional love he had, and urged us to have.
What is a mystic?
I believe that everyone who wants to love unconditionally is a mystic. All children are born mystics, and if you were once a child, you were once a mystic. Christian mysticism is following the example of Christ as he followed the Father. And mysticism is not by any means restricted to Christianity: the Bible says, “everyone who loves is begotten of God, and knows God.” (1 Jn. 4.7) God speaks in various ways, in every time and every place to "whosoever will." Other pages on this site treat non-Christian mysticism.
Mystics range the gamut of walks of life, from intellectual priests such as Frs. Pierre Teilhard de Chardin and Matthew Fox, to laywomen like Bernadette Roberts and Katherine Nelson. The mystic way is old, but timeless—it is alive, and ever-new for each one who chooses it. It may be inviting you to begin this adventure of divine transformation and discovery.
A very, very, very short history of mysticism
The term mysticism derives from The Mystical Theology, a tiny treatise written by the greatest Christian writer of the sixth century, Dionysius the Areopagite, a.k.a. Pseudo-Dionysius or St. Denys [the Areopagite]. But Dionysius is in no way the "founder" of Christian mysticism. That honor belongs to none but Jesus the Christ himself. But there was mysticism long before Jesus was born. God "strolled in the Garden" with man (Heb. 'adam). Jacob saw heaven opened. God spoke to Joseph through dreams. Moses communed with God on Sinai. David lost himself in dancing for the Lord.
But when Jesus declared "I and the Father are one," (Jn. 10.30) he proclaimed in himself the union of God and humankind, and he offers it to all who follow him (he gave the power to become sons of God to all who believe. (Jn. 1.12).
From there, the mystic heart is seen in the letters of the apostles: Paul reached the divinized state of losing his "self": I no longer live, but Christ lives in me! (Gal. 2.20) James wrote that every good and perfect gift comes from the Father of Lights, in whom there is no variation nor shadow of turning. (Jas. 1.17) Peter proclaimed that Christ even descended to hell to liberate imprisoned souls, (1 Pet. 3.19) and John understood the most sublime truth of God's essence: God is Love! (1 Jn. 4.8,16). This is only the beginning. Every century has been influenced by Christian mystics—from apostles and martyrs, Church Fathers and Desert Mothers, to monks and nuns of religious orders, to the lay mystics—men and women and boys and girls in every century, in every denomination, in every walk of life.
Christians believe that you either go to heaven or hell. Hell = eternal suffering. And thing is, they do not need good deeds to go to heaven, you just need to believe and live the Christian way.
Here's an old post by someone who posted 2 years ago, from his own personal transcendental experiences.
GOD is Spirit according to the Bible. What is spirit, you might say? I can only speak based on my own relationship with God and I tell you that I have no wish to define God for you or anybody because as far as I am concern, GOD is beyond's any man's comprehension and you only communicate and have a relationship / be aware of God in your own life.
How a man ends up being aware and have a relationship with God is by being "born of the spirit." I certainly know that I was born again. When you are born again, "angels" and "heaven" and your whole being rejoices.
It is not much different then when a baby is born, except that this is personal. You are the one that rejoices with the "heavenly beings."
I put them all in " " because you might have a different understanding of those words in " " that I used.
Many Christians here cannot accept what I say, even though it was Jesus who said, "You must be Born Again" and "You must be born of the Spirit" and insists that it is simply "believe, have faith" and not a "new birth" in you (the other school hope that as long as you believe you then assume you have new birth
) As if you need to hope and not know
something so obvious as a new birth in yourself.
I believe that Enlightenment has the same effect. If you are Enlightened please tell me what it is like.-----------------
As for hell, you may like to read this: http://www.frimmin.com/faith/godislove.php
Also, though there are nuggets of truth in the bible, there are also many latter additions and edit-tions by many people for other purposes and agenda...
The Jesus of the bible (dating approx. 40 BCE - 10 BCE) is little more than a somewhat fanciful rendering of the Mithraic creeds which were current in 40 BCE Palestine. The resultant figure was a composite of several myths invented or revised by the political gamesmanship at the Council of Nicaea in 325 CE. And of the dozens of authors writing and revising the bible over several centuries after the death of Jesus.
Fortunately however some of the words of the real Jesus, uncorrupted by the political aspirations of Constantinian, Nicean, and early and late church and fundamentalists revisionisms have been found in the dead sea scrolls, notably the Gospel of Thomas. From here echoes of the true and deep awakening of the man can be heard. ~ http://www.sentient.org/past/jesus.html
For Buddhism, does it mean that we donate $1000 to the poor, then we will be better off than the other person that donated $10 to the poor with a good heart?
Posted this last month, slightly edited:
There are two types of blessings... there is leaking blessing and non-leaking blessing (leaking blessing = you lou fu, non-leaking blessing = wu lou fu)
True merits is 'non leaking'... it does not leak away and is like a small seed that produces a tree with an abundance of fruits. We must cultivate this kind of blessings.
If for example we give without attachment to the notion of giver, gift, and recipient -- we do not attach to any thoughts at all, then that act of giving produces immense blessings and merits. It is like the (true) story of the great Arhat Mogallana (or Mahakasyapa?) who took pity of a beggar and asked the beggar to give him some alms (to let him cultivate blessings). The beggar did not know what to give, and because Mogallana had compassion for the beggar, he pointed at the bowl of 3 drops of gruel... the beggar was very happy and joyfully gave the 3 drops of gruel to Mogallana. As a result, he died 7 days later and was born in the heaven of 33 gods for 90+ kalpas.
But if we give for the purpose of our own benefits, or we perform certain things like charity for the purpose of promoting our own fame, that is not true merits. We must be sincere and not attached.
It does not matter how much money you give, just try to help out (in the promotion of dharma or helping out in a monastery) or give whatever you can in your best ability, most importantly must be sincere and not attached in the doing and not attached to anything that happens. It is like 'selfless service' and this is true cultivation. In doing, we practice the dharma.
In the midst of doing or giving or anything -- we are already cultivating true compassion and wisdom. You do not 'accumulate merits' so that you can one day cultivate compassion and wisdom.
http://www.jenchen.org.sg/understa.htm
Real merits
Merits are consequences of the non-orignation and non-cessation of the mind. During the Tang Dynasty in ancient China, Emperor Liang Wu-Ti asked the patriarch Bodhidharma, "Venerable One, I have built many monasteries for the well being of the Sangha and I have also performed many virtuous deeds. What merits have I accumulated? Bodhidharma answered, "You have no merits." Why is that so? It is because when Emperor Liang Wu-Ti performed those acts of giving, he was attached to them. Thus, even though he had performed many virtuous deeds, because he had not cultivated the purity of his mind, he did not attain "non-origination and non-cessation". Therefore, his actions can only be considered as cultivation of blessings, not merits. Without liberation there are no merits. On the other hand, when there is liberation, all virtuous deeds will reap merits.
And also, does it mean that say a person killed someone and they can still 'erase' that by doing other good things like helping someone?
Not simple but possible. People who have killed others, and practice dharma sincerely, and repenting their deeds, can lighten their karma. They can even attain Arhatship/liberation/nirvana, like Angulimala.
It has a very interesting story (his encounter with Buddha after killing almost a thousand men, Buddha used his psychic power to create an illusion on him, eventually converted him. He later attain enlightenment, arhatship, nirvana) and I highly recommend reading: http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/mn/mn.086.than.html
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More on Christian Mysticism, from
For my thoughts are not your thoughts
http://buddhism.sgforums.com/forums/1728/topics/271224
My replies, 3 posts in current post:
Originally posted by Xprobe:well said, this means that i can never be YOU and thus should stop trying and liberate myself from perfecting to YOUR ways. now i can really BE MYSELF.Interesting interpretations
Though you must also know that salvation in Christianity is not by good works, but by grace and faith
It is about
submission to God.. No amount of good works can make the individual
'self' perfect for the ego is sinful by nature. I am saying all
these cos I think even Buddhists should sometimes understand other
people's faith better 
Ironside: God did not transform our old unsaved selves. No, He crucified it. He nailed it to the cross with Christ. God does not expect anything from our old unsaved selves. We donÂ’t expect anything from a dead man.
It is by being crucified (the egoic 'self', which is 'sinful' by nature) and Born Again, with Spirit and Christ as Life.
Now there was a Pharisee named Nicodemus, a leader of the Jews. He came to Jesus by night and said to him, "Rabbi, we know that you are a teacher who has come from God; for no one can do these signs that you do apart from the presence of God." Jesus answered him, "Very truly, I tell you, no one can see the kingdom of God without being born again." Nicodemus said to him, "How can anyone be born after having grown old? Can one enter a second time into the mother's womb and be born?" Jesus answered, "Very truly, I tell you, no one can enter the kingdom of God without being born of water and Spirit."
– John 3:1-5, RSV
Water symbolizes spiritual purification/washing away of the sinful self, and Spirit means the Christ Self. (That is why you see water baptism ceremonies as initiation into Christianity) “I have been crucified with Christ; It is no longer I who live”.
As Ironside said:
Paul, here in verse 20a was stating a positional truth: “I have been crucified with Christ, it is no longer I who live.” The old unsaved Paul with its old corrupt habits and ways was crucified with Christ. The cross ended the reign of Paul’s old self positionally. It was the end of what he was in Adam. And as far as Paul was concerned, Paul reckons that old self as dead positionally.------------------------------
Originally posted by Omniknight:you are not supposed to imagine God in christianity!In monotheistic teachings, you are not supposed to imagine God, you're supposed to surrender/submit yourself to the Divine Presence of God.
"Not my will but Thy will be done." -- Jesus, while being nailed to the cross and dying
Up till the point where there is the dissolving of the egoic identification into the realisation of the Divine Self (the divine I AM THAT I AM), "the indwelling Presence in us" (see Ironside's post in EH), as Paul said from his experience: I no longer live, but Christ lives in me! (Gal. 2.20)
I think the post by Ironside explains this very well in Eternal Hope forum: Living the Christ Life: A brief exposition of Galatians 2:20
This, is the path of monotheistic religions and contemplative paths. In Buddhism, our path is through Insight/Wisdom and Awareness.
Sunyata by A.H.Almaas, a Islamic Sufi Contemplative and also a Buddhist practitioner:If love leads the devotee to the point of the extinction of personality in the fire of truth, awareness can lead him to the point of seeing that ego does not really exist, and hence achieve the same goal of selflessness. Love melts the lover into the ocean of truth, there remain no traces of an “I”. Awareness, on the other hand, cuts through the illusion of a separate identity. It exposes the lie of ego: that it exists as a reality. Love melts ego away, while awareness is like turning on the light and seeing that there is nobody there. The outcome is the same in both cases, but the flavor of the path is different. One is more emotional, the other more insightful. The vocabularies of the two paths differ as a result. The path of love seeks union with the Beloved, while the path of awareness seeks the seeing of naked Reality. Just as prayer is the central practice in the path of love, meditation is the central practice in the path of awareness... (continued in the URL)
BTW, his experiences on Awareness and Insight practise in the URL is a good read.
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Note: this is Ironside's own writings in the Christian forum (Eternal Hope), I pasted here for sharing purposes regarding Christianity's practise for readers' better understanding
It is my prayer that this will be a blessing to Christians here in this forum. Those people who have Christ indwelling them through His Holy Spirit by trusting in Christ alone for salvation.
Living the Christ Life
Introduction
About five hundred years ago, the doctrine of justification by faith alone was recovered. Thanks to a man named Martin Luther. We are much indebted to the ReformerÂ’s recovery of this essential truth of the Bible.
However, no one man or one group of people for that matter in the Church of God has cornered all the truth. Many preachers and teachers after the Reformation rightly taught that justification is by faith alone and not through the Law. What is sad and lamentable however, is that these same preachers taught that sanctification is through the Law. They would have us go to Mt. Calvary for justification and Mt. Sinai for sanctification.
They say: Justification is by faith alone in Christ alone but sanctification is through the Law. This teaching never gets beyond Romans chapter 4 to the identification truths of Romans chapter six and the Liberty of the Spirit in Romans chapter 8, thereby causing many a Christian to flounder and live under a frustrating Romans 7 life.
However, the Bible clearly delineates that a Christian is not under Law but under grace, that a Christian died to the Law and is married now to a higher “Law”: Christ Himself. So, actually, Christ is not only the Christian’s justification, He is also the Christian’s sanctification.
Today, we are going to learn from the Apostle Paul as to how to live the Christian life:
Our text is Galatians 2:20:
Ga 2:20 "I have been crucified with Christ; it is no longer I who live, but Christ lives in me; and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave Himself for me.”
In this text of Scripture, we see three things; we see here that Paul always reckons his a) position with Christ, he was always conscious of the b) presence of the indwelling Christ in him and lastly we see Paul’s c) heart posture – he always relied on Christ.
I. The Christian’s position with Christ: “I have been crucified with Christ; It is no longer I who live”
In the Bible, there are positional truths and there are also truths that pertain to our condition. Truths that refer to our Standing and truths that refer to our State. Positional truths refer to our standing in the eyes of God. Truths that refer to the ChristianÂ’s condition on the other hand refers to our State, our condition as we see ourselves here on earth. Positional truths are unchangeable, they are permanent, they are static. However, our condition or state fluctuates, at least in this side of glory. God would have us match our condition with what we are in position.
Before any single Israelite reached the Promise Land, God had already declared victory and ownership of that Land in advance to the Israelites. The Promise Land was theirs by position before any of them arrived there. Their unbelief did not change that fact. Positionally, the Promise Land was theirs already. In actual condition, they were still in the desert. What they must do is make that position real in their actual experience by going into the Land and possess it. God commanded them to drive the inhabitants of that land. God commanded them to make their condition match their position.
Paul, here in verse 20a was stating a positional truth: “I have been crucified with Christ, it is no longer I who live.” The old unsaved Paul with its old corrupt habits and ways was crucified with Christ. The cross ended the reign of Paul’s old self positionally. It was the end of what he was in Adam. And as far as Paul was concerned, Paul reckons that old self as dead positionally.
God did not transform our old unsaved selves. No, He crucified it. He nailed it to the cross with Christ. God does not expect anything from our old unsaved selves. We donÂ’t expect anything from a dead man.
II. After Paul, stated his position with Christ, Paul then proceeds to state the secret of living the Christian life; Christ Himself---His indwelling presence in us:
Ga 2:20 "I have been crucified with Christ; it is no longer I who live, but Christ lives in me;.....”
The “me” here is the new man in the risen Christ. When Christ was crucified, everything we are connected with the old creation, everything we are connected with Adam was crucified with Him and all these things have passed away positionally. When Christ resurrected we also resurrected with Him positionally to a new creation. The “me” here and the “I” in verse 20d refers to who we are in the risen Christ. However, the dynamic of the new man is the indwelling Christ.
It is a noticeable fact that in the area of salvation God has been setting us aside from the start. Instead of us dying for our sins, Christ died in our stead. In the same way, in the area of living the Christian life, instead of us living the Christ life, Christ lives His life through us. And that is just right because only Christ can live His life. None of us can live the Christ life in the same way I cannot live your life and you cannot live mine. The only one who can live your life is you. The only one who can live my life is me. The only one who can live Christ's life is CHRIST. Now that is a problem for we are not Christ and we have to live the Christ life, but that problem is solved when we realize that Christ lives IN us. What we must do then is to let Christ live His life in and through us. Yield!!!!
Yes, Christ is our life. He is not only our Lord, He is also our Life. Colossians 3:4 clearly states it:
Col 3:4 When Christ who is our Life is revealed, then you also will be revealed with Him in glory
Philippians 1:21: For to me to live is ChristÂ…..
In the original, there is no linking verb “is” here. So Paul was actually saying: “For to me to live, Christ, and to die, gain.
What we are to do is let Christ live His life through us. Just like what Paul did. Second Corinthians 4:11 :”For we who live are always being delivered to death for Jesus' sake, so that the life of Jesus might also be manifested in our body. “
God took care of my sins by Christ dying for me on the cross. He also took care of what I am in Adam by crucifying me with Christ. And now God will deliver me from the power of sin by Christ living in me. Romans chapter 5 verse 10 says:
Ro 5:10 For if when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God through the death of His Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by His life.
You have trouble loving someone? Let Christ love him through you. You have trouble with your temper? You are going to fail every time if you let your old self control it for you. Our old self just can’t do it. It is incorrigibly bad and wicked. God does not expect anything good from it. He nailed it to the cross. And we are to reckon it as such. It was not changed. The secret is an exchanged life. “I am crucified with Christ, it is no longer I who live but Christ.”
III. Now, lest we think that we are not going to do anything and just sit back in sinful passivity, Paul proceeds to tell us the only logical thing to do after stating that his old self was crucified with Christ on the cross positionally and that Christ now lives in him: The only logical thing to do is to Rely on the indwelling Christ.
Ga 2:20 "I have been crucified with Christ; it is no longer I who live, but Christ lives in me; and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave Himself for me.”
Our old sinful self has been positionally taken out of the way by God crucifying us with Christ and now Christ lives in us. Nevertheless, we are not going to be passive about it, rather we are to depend on Christ continually. Faith is always active never passive. In my Bible I have it written in the front page as to how to depend on the indwelling Christ. This is a quote from Major Ian Thomas:
“Relate everything, moment by moment, as it arises to the adequacy of what He is in you, and assume that His adequacy will be operative.”
To recap: to live the Christian life We are to reckon our position that we have been crucified with Christ and raised up with Him, recognize that the indwelling Christ is our life and that relying on Him is our portion. These are the platform truths on which the injunctions and directives of the New Testament stand. -
As I wrote...
...Because when we're talking about the core of religions, it's the mystics/contemplatives that are the 'highest level' practitioners... who seek to understand the truth of their religions not just by belief, theories or even feelings/emotions (common religious seekers may have powerful life-changing experiences or encounters with the divine force/spirit, or miracles, but it will always seem to be "separate" from the "seeker" until they realise union/its true nature) but by complete union with the true essence of god.
But for the mystics, its a direct experience of the UNION with the Divine Presence of God, the Self, it is not the ego-self, it is not your personal self, its the true self, the God-self. "God-consciousness". It's a complete dissolving of any sense of individuality into God/true-Self, a sort of non-dual experience (but not the kind of non-duality in Buddhism) and realising the true identity of luminous pure consciousness, or the Pure Life itself as you will, as God...
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Originally posted by An Eternal Now:
This is a Buddhist forum, but for the sake of sharing knowledge I hope this is ok with others... to share certain articles on what Christian mysticism and Christian teachings point to. I'm however, not implying that Buddhism and Christianity are the same paths, because they are not really the same path. Christianity and all monotheistic religions are paths of submission to the divine, while Buddhism emphasizes the aspect of insight.
There is a serious lack of understanding of what mysticism is about, and probably most Christians you encounter will never even have heard of the word. Mysticism is at the heart of Christianity since its very beginning, many great Christians in history has been great mystics. Wherever there is Christianity, there are mystics.
And 'mystic' has nothing to do with occulticism, supernatural, or the weird weird stuff. Nothing of that sort. Read on, and you'll know.
http://www.frimmin.com/faith/mysticismintro.php
What is Mysticism?
To many modern Christians, words like "meditation," "mystic," and "mysticism" bring to mind Eastern religions, not Christianity. Certainly Eastern religions are known for their mysticism; however, mysticism is not only a vital part of the Christian heritage as well, but it is actually the core of Christian spirituality. Mysticism simply means the spirituality of the direct experience of God. It is the adventure of "the wild things of God."
The direct experience of God is a kind of knowing, which goes beyond intellectual understanding. It is not a matter of "belief." It is marked by love and joy, but it is not "emotional experience." In many ways, it is better described by what it is not. To describe what it is, we must use metaphors—the marriage of the soul to Christ, the death of the "old man" and birth of the "new man," being the "body of Christ."
Jesus proclaimed "I and the Father are one," (Jn. 10.30) showing the world what the union of God and man can be. Christian mysticism is about nothing else but this transforming union.
Christ is the sole end of Christian mysticism. Whereas all Christians have Christ, call on Christ, and can (or should) know Christ, the goal for the Christian mystic is to become Christ—to become as fully permeated with God as Christ is, thus becoming like him, fully human, and by the grace of God, also fully divine. In Christian teaching this doctrine is known by various names—theosis, divinization, deification, and transforming union.
A common misconception about mysticism is that it's about "mystical experiences," and there are many volumes on such experiences in religious literature. But true mysticism is not focussed on "experiences" (which come and go) but with the lasting experience of God, leading to the transformation of the believer into union with God.
A very, very, very short mystical apologetic.
To know God directly shows that mysticism is different from any passive or legalistic kind of Christianity. It means:
- That while we honor the Scriptures, we want to know God directly, not just through Scripture.
- While we respect our heritage of teachings about God, we want to know God directly, not through doctrines and teachings.
- While we gather in communal worship, we want to know God directly, not just through the Church.
Some readers may find this unsettling. Maybe you believe it doesn't apply to you, because you "know" that your church is purer and more correct than others. Even if that were true, is it a substitute for knowing God directly? Or, you might also feel that trusting the Bible alone gives you knowledge of God directly from the Source. But it was written by mystics, listening to God speaking his Word in their hearts. Is it possible for you to read it directly, without the conceptions of your language, time, culture, and personal history? Are you sure you wouldn't understand it very differently if you were reading it, say, in third-century Damascus?
The religion we call "Christianity" changes, but God is eternal. Mystical faith wants to know this unchanging God to whom Christianity leads us, the One behind the beliefs and the words, the One whom beliefs and words cannot describe. We want to follow Jesus' example more closely, and go beyond the religion about Jesus, and take the religion of Jesus: the knowledge of the Father and unconditional love he had, and urged us to have.
What is a mystic?
I believe that everyone who wants to love unconditionally is a mystic. All children are born mystics, and if you were once a child, you were once a mystic. Christian mysticism is following the example of Christ as he followed the Father. And mysticism is not by any means restricted to Christianity: the Bible says, “everyone who loves is begotten of God, and knows God.” (1 Jn. 4.7) God speaks in various ways, in every time and every place to "whosoever will." Other pages on this site treat non-Christian mysticism.
Mystics range the gamut of walks of life, from intellectual priests such as Frs. Pierre Teilhard de Chardin and Matthew Fox, to laywomen like Bernadette Roberts and Katherine Nelson. The mystic way is old, but timeless—it is alive, and ever-new for each one who chooses it. It may be inviting you to begin this adventure of divine transformation and discovery.
A very, very, very short history of mysticism
The term mysticism derives from The Mystical Theology, a tiny treatise written by the greatest Christian writer of the sixth century, Dionysius the Areopagite, a.k.a. Pseudo-Dionysius or St. Denys [the Areopagite]. But Dionysius is in no way the "founder" of Christian mysticism. That honor belongs to none but Jesus the Christ himself. But there was mysticism long before Jesus was born. God "strolled in the Garden" with man (Heb. 'adam). Jacob saw heaven opened. God spoke to Joseph through dreams. Moses communed with God on Sinai. David lost himself in dancing for the Lord.
But when Jesus declared "I and the Father are one," (Jn. 10.30) he proclaimed in himself the union of God and humankind, and he offers it to all who follow him (he gave the power to become sons of God to all who believe. (Jn. 1.12).
From there, the mystic heart is seen in the letters of the apostles: Paul reached the divinized state of losing his "self": I no longer live, but Christ lives in me! (Gal. 2.20) James wrote that every good and perfect gift comes from the Father of Lights, in whom there is no variation nor shadow of turning. (Jas. 1.17) Peter proclaimed that Christ even descended to hell to liberate imprisoned souls, (1 Pet. 3.19) and John understood the most sublime truth of God's essence: God is Love! (1 Jn. 4.8,16). This is only the beginning. Every century has been influenced by Christian mystics—from apostles and martyrs, Church Fathers and Desert Mothers, to monks and nuns of religious orders, to the lay mystics—men and women and boys and girls in every century, in every denomination, in every walk of life.
Here's an old post by someone who posted 2 years ago, from his own personal transcendental experiences.
GOD is Spirit according to the Bible. What is spirit, you might say? I can only speak based on my own relationship with God and I tell you that I have no wish to define God for you or anybody because as far as I am concern, GOD is beyond's any man's comprehension and you only communicate and have a relationship / be aware of God in your own life.
How a man ends up being aware and have a relationship with God is by being "born of the spirit." I certainly know that I was born again. When you are born again, "angels" and "heaven" and your whole being rejoices.
It is not much different then when a baby is born, except that this is personal. You are the one that rejoices with the "heavenly beings."
I put them all in " " because you might have a different understanding of those words in " " that I used.
Many Christians here cannot accept what I say, even though it was Jesus who said, "You must be Born Again" and "You must be born of the Spirit" and insists that it is simply "believe, have faith" and not a "new birth" in you (the other school hope that as long as you believe you then assume you have new birth ) As if you need to hope and not know
something so obvious as a new birth in yourself.
I believe that Enlightenment has the same effect. If you are Enlightened please tell me what it is like.Posted this last month, slightly edited:
There are two types of blessings... there is leaking blessing and non-leaking blessing (leaking blessing = you lou fu, non-leaking blessing = wu lou fu)
True merits is 'non leaking'... it does not leak away and is like a small seed that produces a tree with an abundance of fruits. We must cultivate this kind of blessings.
If for example we give without attachment to the notion of giver, gift, and recipient -- we do not attach to any thoughts at all, then that act of giving produces immense blessings and merits. It is like the (true) story of the great Arhat Mogallana (or Mahakasyapa?) who took pity of a beggar and asked the beggar to give him some alms (to let him cultivate blessings). The beggar did not know what to give, and because Mogallana had compassion for the beggar, he pointed at the bowl of 3 drops of gruel... the beggar was very happy and joyfully gave the 3 drops of gruel to Mogallana. As a result, he died 7 days later and was born in the heaven of 33 gods for 90+ kalpas.
But if we give for the purpose of our own benefits, or we perform certain things like charity for the purpose of promoting our own fame, that is not true merits. We must be sincere and not attached.
It does not matter how much money you give, just try to help out (in the promotion of dharma or helping out in a monastery) or give whatever you can in your best ability, most importantly must be sincere and not attached in the doing and not attached to anything that happens. It is like 'selfless service' and this is true cultivation. In doing, we practice the dharma.
In the midst of doing or giving or anything -- we are already cultivating true compassion and wisdom. You do not 'accumulate merits' so that you can one day cultivate compassion and wisdom.
http://www.jenchen.org.sg/understa.htm
Real merits
Merits are consequences of the non-orignation and non-cessation of the mind. During the Tang Dynasty in ancient China, Emperor Liang Wu-Ti asked the patriarch Bodhidharma, "Venerable One, I have built many monasteries for the well being of the Sangha and I have also performed many virtuous deeds. What merits have I accumulated? Bodhidharma answered, "You have no merits." Why is that so? It is because when Emperor Liang Wu-Ti performed those acts of giving, he was attached to them. Thus, even though he had performed many virtuous deeds, because he had not cultivated the purity of his mind, he did not attain "non-origination and non-cessation". Therefore, his actions can only be considered as cultivation of blessings, not merits. Without liberation there are no merits. On the other hand, when there is liberation, all virtuous deeds will reap merits.
Not so easy. However, people who have killed others, and practice dharma sincerely, and repenting their deeds, can lighten their karma. They can even attain Arhatship/liberation/nirvana, like Angulimala.
It has a very interesting story (his encounter with Buddha after killing almost a thousand men, Buddha used his psychic power to create an illusion on him, eventually converted him. He later attain enlightenment, arhatship, nirvana) and I highly recommend reading: http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/mn/mn.086.than.html
Oops so sorry! Just found that I posted an entirely wrong article.
Updated with the correct posting.
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P.S. there is still a stage beyond transforming union in Christianity, but that is too advanced for now not well known and spoken... that would be the subject best spoken from the personal experience of Bernadette Roberts. I have posted one of her articles in my blog at http://awakeningtoreality.blogspot.com.
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Originally posted by An Eternal Now:
I wonder if Longchen has read the Bardo Thogal (i.e. Tibetan Book of the Dead) before?
I have the book before. Read a bit here and there... not thorough at all.
Just my opinion...
My belief is that immediately upon the death of the physical body and when the physical-based senses have fully shut down, for a brief moment, one will experience the all-pervading Presence of Dharmakaya. Whether it will be expereinced as dark space or bright luminosity or both, I am not too sure... it may depends.
However, not recognising it, due to inexperience, never experiencing it before, etc, the subconscious dream-like imageries should appear after that. I strongly believe that whatever that appears in this stage are just symbolic representations of our own karmic patterns and beliefs.
My belief is that physical body is only just one aspect of the 'being', the other aspects (such as emotional and mental aspects) do not dissolve with physical death and are thus vividly experienced when the limits imposed by the physical form is gone. The remaining aspects, being unpurified, produces the reactions to the resulting imageries and thus propelling the 'being' towards future rebirths.
It has been said that very highly enlightened persons have very few dreams. My take is that this is because their subconscious mind is highly purified of karmic patterns and beliefs... so much so that there is little or no karmic representations as dream symbols... therefore very few dreams.
Just my opinion only though... don't talk it literally.
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Originally posted by longchen:
I have the book before. Read a bit here and there... not thorough at all.
Just my opinion...
My belief is that immediately upon the death of the physical body and when the physical-based senses have fully shut down, for a brief moment, one will experience the all-pervading Presence of Dharmakaya. Whether it will be expereinced as dark space or bright luminosity or both, I am not too sure... it may depends.
However, not recognising it, due to inexperience, never experiencing it before, etc, the subconscious dream-like imageries should appear after that. I strongly believe that whatever that appears in this stage are just symbolic representations of our own karmic patterns and beliefs.
My belief is that physical body is only just one aspect of the 'being', the other aspects (such as emotional and mental aspects) do not dissolve with physical death and are thus vividly experienced when the limits imposed by the physical form is gone. The remaining aspects, being unpurified, produces the reactions to the resulting imageries and thus propelling the 'being' towards future rebirths.
It has been said that very highly enlightened persons have very few dreams. My take is that this is because their subconscious mind is highly purified of karmic patterns and beliefs... so much so that there is little or no karmic representations as dream symbols... therefore very few dreams.
Just my opinion only though... don't talk it literally.
Thanks for your sharing.. yes I do think so regarding Bodhisattvas... it's said they will have little or no dreams, and the dreams that occur are related to their Bodhisattva path... aka 'bodhisattva dreams'.
As for what occurs at death, both the bardo thogal and my master suggests that at the time of death it is possible to recognise the Clear Light. My master use the pure land term 寂光. It is of infinite brightness.
BTW what is the difference between 'Presence of Dark Space' and 'Presence of Bright Luminosity'...
I was just reading that in mystical Judaist tradition of Kabbalah, they seem to suggest different levels of experience of Presence or God, and creation... the top is the purest, the 'absolut-test'. What do you think.
The 'rays of creation' (highest-to-lowest classification):
1. The Limitless Light
2. The Limitless and Boundless
3. The vacuum of pure spirit
4. The Boundless World of Divine Names begins
5. Self-Awareness ("I Am")
6. Wisdom, essence of being (Jehovah)7. Understanding, Jehovah-Elohim, which means "God of Gods"
8. El, which means God the creator (so clearly Jehovah is not the Creator deity. El, in fact, was an ancient god worshipped in cultures prior to the ancient Jews)
9. Elohim Giboor, "severity" or God the Potent - this is basically karma
10. Eloah Vadaath, "beauty" which means God The Strong - this certainly reminds me of "The Great Perfection." This "beauty" occurs in the center of the Kabballistic classification scheme and indicates BALANCE and HARMONY.
11. Jehovah Tzaboath means "Victory" or "God of Hosts" - this is saying that with the backing force of balance, strength and karma, everything is put in its proper place.
12. Elohim Tzaboath, means "Glory" or "Lord God of Hosts" - this is the reflection of BALANCE and HARMONY beginning to take form in mental awareness. So the Beauty of the infinite nondual experience begins to become appreciated as a Glorious perception.
13. the first Foundation - "omnipotent" which is given the name Shaddai El Chai
14. the first Kingdom - Adonai Melekh which means "God" and actually refers to the Earth and physical existence. -
Originally posted by An Eternal Now:
Thanks for your sharing.. yes I do think so regarding Bodhisattvas... it's said they will have little or no dreams, and the dreams that occur are related to their Bodhisattva path... aka 'bodhisattva dreams'.
As for what occurs at death, both the bardo thogal and my master suggests that at the time of death it is possible to recognise the Clear Light. My master use the pure land term 寂光. It is of infinite brightness.
BTW what is the difference between 'Presence of Dark Space' and 'Presence of Bright Luminosity'...
I was just reading that in mystical Judaist tradition of Kabbalah, they seem to suggest different levels of experience of Presence or God, and creation... the top is the purest, the 'absolut-test'. What do you think.
The 'rays of creation' (highest-to-lowest classification):
1. The Limitless Light
2. The Limitless and Boundless
3. The vacuum of pure spirit
4. The Boundless World of Divine Names begins
5. Self-Awareness ("I Am")
6. Wisdom, essence of being (Jehovah)7. Understanding, Jehovah-Elohim, which means "God of Gods"
8. El, which means God the creator (so clearly Jehovah is not the Creator deity. El, in fact, was an ancient god worshipped in cultures prior to the ancient Jews)
9. Elohim Giboor, "severity" or God the Potent - this is basically karma
10. Eloah Vadaath, "beauty" which means God The Strong - this certainly reminds me of "The Great Perfection." This "beauty" occurs in the center of the Kabballistic classification scheme and indicates BALANCE and HARMONY.
11. Jehovah Tzaboath means "Victory" or "God of Hosts" - this is saying that with the backing force of balance, strength and karma, everything is put in its proper place.
12. Elohim Tzaboath, means "Glory" or "Lord God of Hosts" - this is the reflection of BALANCE and HARMONY beginning to take form in mental awareness. So the Beauty of the infinite nondual experience begins to become appreciated as a Glorious perception.
13. the first Foundation - "omnipotent" which is given the name Shaddai El Chai
14. the first Kingdom - Adonai Melekh which means "God" and actually refers to the Earth and physical existence.Just my opinion only...
The dark space is the infinite, borderless and all-pervading quality of Dharmakaya. The luminosity is.. well... the 'brightness' aspect of Dharmakaya. I have experienced both aspects.... perhaps different situation will create a different emphasis.
As for Kabbalah, i am not an expert on it. Bob, is the real expert... but he doesn't come up to my forum nowadays.
regards