The Meaning of Nirvana

• An Eternal Now

  18 Feb 12, 02:27

  - http://www.dhammawheel.com/viewtopic.php?f=35&t=6950

  
  

  Nibb�na is a negation. It means extinguishment. With the fruition of each of the four paths one knows the termination of the fetters which are eliminated by that path. This termination is nibb�na appropriate to that path. The Paṭisambhid�magga:
  
  How is it that the discernment of the termination of continuance in one who is fully aware is gnosis of full extinguishment (parinibbÄ�na ñÄ�ṇa)?
  
  Through the stream-entry path he terminates identity view (sakk�yadiṭṭhi), doubt (vicikicch�), and mistaken adherence to rules and duty (sīlabbatapar�m�sa).... This discernment of the termination of continuance in one who is fully aware is gnosis of full extinguishment....
  
  He causes the cessation of identity view, doubt, and mistaken adherence to rules and duty through the stream-entry path.
  
  
  And so on for the fetters which are terminated on the remaining three paths. The once-returner path terminates the gross fetters of desire for sensual pleasure (k�macchanda) and aversion (vy�p�da/by�p�da). The non-returner path terminates the secondary fetters of desire for sensual pleasure (k�macchanda) and aversion (vy�p�da/by�p�da). The arahant path terminates the fetters of passion for form [existence] (rūpar�ga), passion for formless [existence] (arūpar�ga), conceit (m�na), restlessness (uddhacca), and ignorance (avijj�).
  
  All the best,
  
  Geoff
  
  ...
  
  Firstly, nibb�na isn't a "state." Secondly, nibb�na is the cessation of passion, aggression, and delusion. For a learner it is the cessation of the fetters extinguished on each path. The waking states where "suddenly all sensations and six senses stop functioning" are (1) mundane perceptionless sam�dhis, and (2) cessation of apperception and feeling. Neither of these are supramundane and neither of these are synonymous with experiencing nibb�na.
  
  All the best,
  
  Geoff

  ....

  
  This type of blackout cessation is experienced by all sorts of yogis including those practicing non-Buddhist systems. Thus, it has nothing to do with the correct engagement of vipassan�. The cessation of unsatisfactoriness (dukkhanirodha) is the cessation of craving (taṇh�), not the cessation of phenomena. DN 22:
  
  

  And what is the noble truth of the cessation of stress? The remainderless fading & cessation, renunciation, relinquishment, release, & letting go of that very craving.
  

  
  What craving? Craving sensual pleasure (k�mataṇh�), craving existence (bhavataṇh�), and craving non-existence (vibhavataṇh�). The cessation of unsatisfactoriness is the cessation of very specific fetters pertaining to each of the four noble paths. There is no canonical support for your interpretation of nibb�na or saup�disesa nibb�nadh�tu (nibb�na element with fuel remaining).

  ....

  
  
  The suttas define and describe the goal in sufficient terms. The difficulty in this discussion relates to whether one accepts what the canon states about the fruition of the path, or alternatively, accepts much later commentarial interpretations of the "path-moment" and "fruition-moment" as re-interpreted by a few 20th century Burmese monks. Without sufficient common ground for discussion there isn't much possibility of meaningful dialogue.

  
  

  .........

  
  

  
  I was just paraphrasing the professor's own words. Karunadasa's The Dhamma Theory: Philosophical Cornerstone of the Abhidhamma:
  
  

  What emerges from this Abhidhammic doctrine of dhammas is a critical realism, one which recognizes the distinctness of the world from the experiencing subject yet also distinguishes between those types of entities that truly exist independently of the cognitive act and those that owe their being to the act of cognition itself.
  

  
  He goes on to say that "a dhamma is a truly existent thing (sabh�vasiddha)." This is a completely realist view. And the inevitable consequence entailed by this realist view, wherein all conditioned dhammas are "truly existing things," is that path cognitions and fruition cognitions of each of the four paths and fruits must occur within an utterly void vacuum state cessation, which is considered to be the ultimately existent "unconditioned." This is described by Jack Kornfield:
  
  

  In Mahasi’s model, enlightenment—or at least stream-entry, the first taste of nirvana—comes in the form of a cessation of experience, arising out of the deepest state of concentration and attention, when the body and mind are dissolved, the experience of the ordinary senses ceases, and we rest in perfect equanimity. We open into that which is unconditioned, timeless, and liberating: nirvana.... But there are a lot of questions around this kind of moment. Sometimes it seems to have enormously transformative effects on people. Other times people have this moment of experience and aren’t really changed by it at all. Sometimes they’re not even sure what happened.
  

  
  This notion of path and fruition cognitions is not supported by the P�li canon. Moreover, there are now numerous people who've had such experiences sanctioned by "insight meditation" teachers, and who have gone on to proclaim to the world that arahants can still experience lust and the other defiled mental phenomena. Taking all of this into account there is no good reason whatsoever to accept this interpretation of path and fruition cognitions. Void vacuum state cessations are not an adequate nor reliable indication of stream entry or any of the other paths and fruitions.
  
  All the best,
  
  Geoff
• An Eternal Now

  18 Feb 12, 02:32

  SN 43 Asaṅkhata Saṃyutta (1-44 combined & abridged):
  

  And what, monks, is the not-fabricated (asaá¹…khata)? The elimination of passion, the elimination of aggression, the elimination of delusion: this is called the not-fabricated.
  
  And what, monks, is the not-inclined (anata)? The elimination of passion, the elimination of aggression, the elimination of delusion: this is called the not-inclined.
  
  And what, monks, is the outflowless (an�sava)? The elimination of passion, the elimination of aggression, the elimination of delusion: this is called the outflowless.
  
  And what, monks, is the truth (sacca)? The elimination of passion, the elimination of aggression, the elimination of delusion: this is called the truth.
  
  And what, monks, is the farther shore (p�ra)? The elimination of passion, the elimination of aggression, the elimination of delusion: this is called the farther shore.
  
  And what, monks, is the subtle (nipuṇa)? The elimination of passion, the elimination of aggression, the elimination of delusion: this is called the subtle.
  
  And what, monks, is the very hard to see (sududdasa)? The elimination of passion, the elimination of aggression, the elimination of delusion: this is called the very hard to see.
  
  And what, monks, is the unaging (ajajjara)? The elimination of passion, the elimination of aggression, the elimination of delusion: this is called the unaging.
  
  And what, monks, is the stable (dhuva)? The elimination of passion, the elimination of aggression, the elimination of delusion: this is called the stable.
  
  And what, monks, is the undisintegrating (apalokita)? The elimination of passion, the elimination of aggression, the elimination of delusion: this is called the undisintegrating.
  
  And what, monks, is the non-indicative (anidassana)? The elimination of passion, the elimination of aggression, the elimination of delusion: this is called the non-indicative.
  
  And what, monks, is the unproliferated (nippapañca)? The elimination of passion, the elimination of aggression, the elimination of delusion: this is called the unproliferated.
  
  And what, monks, is the peaceful (santa)? The elimination of passion, the elimination of aggression, the elimination of delusion: this is called the peaceful.
  
  And what, monks, is the death-free (amata)? The elimination of passion, the elimination of aggression, the elimination of delusion: this is called the death-free.
  
  And what, monks, is the sublime (paṇīta)? The elimination of passion, the elimination of aggression, the elimination of delusion: this is called the sublime.
  
  And what, monks, is the auspicious (siva)? The elimination of passion, the elimination of aggression, the elimination of delusion: this is called the auspicious.
  
  And what, monks, is the secure (khema)? The elimination of passion, the elimination of aggression, the elimination of delusion: this is called the secure.
  
  And what, monks, is the elimination of craving (taṇh�kkhaya)? The elimination of passion, the elimination of aggression, the elimination of delusion: this is called the elimination of craving.
  
  And what, monks, is the wonderful (acchariya)? The elimination of passion, the elimination of aggression, the elimination of delusion: this is called the wonderful.
  
  And what, monks, is the amazing (abbhuta)? The elimination of passion, the elimination of aggression, the elimination of delusion: this is called the amazing.
  
  And what, monks, is the calamity-free (anītika)? The elimination of passion, the elimination of aggression, the elimination of delusion: this is called the calamity-free.
  
  And what, monks, is the dhamma free of calamity (anītikadhamma)? The elimination of passion, the elimination of aggression, the elimination of delusion: this is called the dhamma free of calamity.
  
  And what, monks, is extinguishment (nibb�na)? The elimination of passion, the elimination of aggression, the elimination of delusion: this is called extinguishment.
  
  And what, monks, is the unafflicted (aby�pajjha)? The elimination of passion, the elimination of aggression, the elimination of delusion: this is called the unafflicted.
  
  And what, monks, is dispassion (vir�ga)? The elimination of passion, the elimination of aggression, the elimination of delusion: this is called dispassion.
  
  And what, monks, is purity (suddhi)? The elimination of passion, the elimination of aggression, the elimination of delusion: this is called purity.
  
  And what, monks, is freedom (mutti)? The elimination of passion, the elimination of aggression, the elimination of delusion: this is called freedom.
  
  And what, monks, is the unadhesive (an�laya)? The elimination of passion, the elimination of aggression, the elimination of delusion: this is called the unadhesive.
  
  And what, monks, is the island (dīpa)? The elimination of passion, the elimination of aggression, the elimination of delusion: this is called the island.
  
  And what, monks, is the cave (leṇa)? The elimination of passion, the elimination of aggression, the elimination of delusion: this is called the cave.
  
  And what, monks, is the shelter (t�ṇa)? The elimination of passion, the elimination of aggression, the elimination of delusion: this is called the shelter.
  
  And what, monks, is the refuge (saraṇa)? The elimination of passion, the elimination of aggression, the elimination of delusion: this is called the refuge.
  
  And what, monks, is the destination (par�yana)? The elimination of passion, the elimination of aggression, the elimination of delusion: this is called the destination.
  
• An Eternal Now

  18 Feb 12, 22:21

  Geoff: As do I. When fellows like U Paṇ�ita and Kearney understand nibb�na to be a momentary blip of nothingness it's clear that the soteriological significance of nibb�na and the foundational structure of the four noble truths has been misunderstood by this community. It's little wonder then, when someone like Ingram comes along, who has trained in this same Mah�si tradition, and claims that the full realization of nibb�na doesn't result in the complete extingishment of lust and anger. Why is this not surprising? Because the soteriological significance of nibb�na and the foundation of the four noble truths has been forgotten by this community.
• An Eternal Now

  19 Feb 12, 01:46

  Geoff:

  
  I was just paraphrasing the professor's own words. Karunadasa's The Dhamma Theory: Philosophical Cornerstone of the Abhidhamma:
  

  What emerges from this Abhidhammic doctrine of dhammas is a critical realism, one which recognizes the distinctness of the world from the experiencing subject yet also distinguishes between those types of entities that truly exist independently of the cognitive act and those that owe their being to the act of cognition itself.
  

  
  He goes on to say that "a dhamma is a truly existent thing (sabh�vasiddha)." This is a completely realist view. And the inevitable consequence entailed by this realist view, wherein all conditioned dhammas are "truly existing things," is that path cognitions and fruition cognitions of each of the four paths and fruits must occur within an utterly void vacuum state cessation, which is considered to be the ultimately existent "unconditioned." This is described by Jack Kornfield:
  

  In Mahasi’s model, enlightenment—or at least stream-entry, the first taste of nirvana—comes in the form of a cessation of experience, arising out of the deepest state of concentration and attention, when the body and mind are dissolved, the experience of the ordinary senses ceases, and we rest in perfect equanimity. We open into that which is unconditioned, timeless, and liberating: nirvana.... But there are a lot of questions around this kind of moment. Sometimes it seems to have enormously transformative effects on people. Other times people have this moment of experience and aren’t really changed by it at all. Sometimes they’re not even sure what happened.
  

  
  This notion of path and fruition cognitions is not supported by the P�li canon. Moreover, there are now numerous people who've had such experiences sanctioned by "insight meditation" teachers, and who have gone on to proclaim to the world that arahants can still experience lust and the other defiled mental phenomena. Taking all of this into account there is no good reason whatsoever to accept this interpretation of path and fruition cognitions. Void vacuum state cessations are not an adequate nor reliable indication of stream entry or any of the other paths and fruitions.
  
  All the best,
  
  Geoff