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Aug 19 2006
I have been upgraded and downgraded by LGM many times. this is furiating and i ended up payng 23,000 for the cash back.
Recently i have got to know a close friend who is in custom solutions. There is a lawyer firm in Singapore now handling a class acion mass
lawsuit again timeshare companies.
I have joined their support group. Just here to share the information Whoever who wants to join the support group can email me at
[email protected]. - : saved soul
Aug 14 2006
To those of you living in Singapore, and who have yet to get that annoying telephone call, a timely warning of a timeshare scam from a company calling itself "GreatConcepts" and claiming to represent a "sponsor" named "O.T. Travel" or, as I have come to find out is in actuality "Oriental Travel".
The anatomy of the scam call is as such :
1. Some chap calling claiming that you've won a IBM notebook computer valued at $4,000; they sent the notice to you - didn't you get it? No? Well, they auctioned the "prize" off because it was unclaimed (yeah, you and 2 others who didn't claim their prize). They supposedly even have an advertisement in the local paper highlighting the prize (Wow! Can't believe you didn't see that ad. Well never mind, they have a copy they can fax to you).
2. They quote your IC number, address and such and you wonder where they got that from.
3. They've been informed by their auditor that they have to award you with something notwithstanding that they've "auctioned" off your notebook prize, and in exchange are willing to give you S$4,000 (or some equivalent) worth of product vouchers. You know? like the Isetan private sale? Yeah, they got something like that. "We have camcorders / TVs" whatever. You say, "Oh well, don't really need that notebook computer anyway, just send me a check for $4,000 then mate", but they have a quick answer, quoting some ludicrous "lotteries act of Singapore of 1846" or some such that gives them the right to sell or auction off any unclaimed prizes. They're playing on BOTH your fear of loss and your greed to get someting back. Clever, no?
4. At this time, you're laughing your head off and can't believe that there's such a brazen misrepresentation scam in squeaky clean Singapore but because it's a lazy Saturday afternoon, you indulge the guy on the line with "well actually, I'm more familiar with the telecommunications act of 1986 whcih makes it a fraud for you to
call me with this misrepresentation and attempt to cheat". He then says that I have to be careful of what I say because the line is recorded. "Well, that's good", I respond, "because this is quite useful evidence when I sue your silly ass off!"
I was lucky in not having responded further or gone for anything in their office or supposed yard sale, but want to warn others out there of their dirty tactics. These guys study trends and continue to play on innocent people's greed and fear. - AlmostConned
May 25 2006
Dear all victims of LGM,
I sincerely apologise to all the couples that I had cold called while I was an employee of the telemarketing firm Expo Management which was hired by Leisure Group Marketing to do their dirty work. Even though I have worked for them for a total of only 3 days I berate myself for not wising up to their schemes. The fact was I managed to get 2 couples to come to their offices in Ngee Ann city Tower B 16-01 and one of the couples wanted me to give the "letter of offer" to them personally. So I went down to give them the letter but I could not find them. So I decided to go up to the offices at the 16th floor where I found a whole crowd of young families/couples waiting at the offices named Leisure Group Marketing. Feeling suspicious as I was told by my employer in Expo Management Jonathan Tan that we were representing Leisure Group Travel Services, I went home and googled Leisure Group Marketing and I found all those messages/posts of ppl being cheated and I felt really guilty and cheated at the same time. I really regret being a telemarketer for such a scam job even if it was only for 3 days. So to everyone out there this Leisure Group Marketing uses a side firm called Expo Management and their numbers are 62234846 and 97924371. If you recognise these numbers do not hesitate to back out of whatever bogus deal they are offering you. Right now they are calling people with offers of a free $1200 flight discount voucher $150 spa voucher and a free digital camera/mp3 player if you are willing to come down at 4pm to that scam office at Ngee Ann Tower B 16-01. So if that sounds familiar, drop the offer like a hot potato folks coz the deal stinks. Yours sincerely, A former duped telemarketer (if only for 3 days) - formertelemarketer
May 24 2006
I received a call from Ju Shi marketing, representing Oriental Travel in Shaw House building in Scotts road, offer me a $1000 flights voucher and free 14 days resorts stay, but have to sit in a 2 hours holiday presenting. Presentation started with a lady consultant name Tricia, she pick me and my wife at the recep area, then she sit us down in the room fill with loud disco music. she promise that she's not selling anything but to share with us how other people benefits from Oriental Travel.after almost an hour of talking rubbish except the company travel plan, 1 arrogant short hair manager name Darren start his powerpoint presentation.promoting Goid crown Resorts, able to stay in 5 star hotel and resorts for S$530 for a week for 2 paxs and max is S$1300 for 8 paxs.but have to join their membership @ S$16,980 on the day of presentation!!!!!!! that arrogant Darren keep pressing for my wife to join and promise a free trip for us to gold coast for 2 adults and my 2 kids. When i say NO, he turn nasty n say if we can't afford, just say so, don say want to think about it. and he just walk away without even looking at us. wat kind of manager is that!!!!!!!!they claim to be a member of STB and NATAS, but after i did a check, they have long ago din renew their STB and NATAS member, please be careful if any1 is being call up for free things. I sincerely urge all Singaporean to be aware of Oriental Travel. - Ricky
May 15 2006
Called myself stupid coz' I actually upgraded 2 times and reached CVC level at the expense of S$35,000.00 (all into the drain ). Used their services twice only. Have been approached recently by Global Europ at maxwell house, saying they can help me to terminate the CVC membership and recover at least 65% of my investment from LGM. How they do is via lawsuit against LGM, siting misinterpretation. The lawsuit would take 12 to 16 mths. The fees quoted is S$10,700/-, payable 50% upfront and balance upon confirmation of termination. If termination is not successful, the fees would be refunded. Another scam??? Their tactic is similar to LGM, service advisor and you inside a cold room for more than 1 hour of talking, persuasion , fees quoted for today only, substantial discount from the regular fees and finally, when you refuse, cohersion & dropping comments that you are not helping fellow Singaporeans by not taking up their offer to sue LGM. As if they are so righteous!!!! My foot. My view is they are part of LGM or at least in the same league.....they use the phrase "LGM will accept our termination request" . WHY??? If LGM is sueing members for not paying membership fees, why would they accept the termination request? Has anyone ever receive lawyer letters from LGM or CVC for outstanding membership fees so far???? would like to know if others have come acrossthis company. TQ - : stupid pig
May 11 2006
Through my conversation with LGM and Expo Managment staff, it also appears they are contravening our CPF regulations by not paying CPF of staff whose salary are more than S$500 per month and whose age are below 50 years. Can you also publish this for the readers that may be an employee of that company or even forward a copy to the CPF Board for investigation. - anon
Apr 20 2006
On April 20th 2006 we had a call from Expo Management limited aka LGM claiming we had just won "one of 3 prizes" ... anyway now then i know Expo management does not even exist in The ROC of Singapore. I had check with the yellowpages.com.sg website. anyway i am dead tired now and really felt cheated of my 1st down payment and promised of free gifts which u need to pay high transport charges to receive those "free items" just stay claer of them... like my mother always tell me..."there is no free lunch in the world" so sad now... felt like shit - : Simple Singaporean
Mar 27 2006
Anyone thinking of working in Koh Samui for QRI/QVC as an OPC at the Peinsula, DONT BOTHER........Literally no qualified ups about, have to blaque almost everything, 5,000 baht fine if you get caught.....reception are a nightmare, cant speak English so about 30% refused tours, then you got the Reps spinning at 50 minutes almost 20% of ups that go on tour......you are lucky to get paid on 3 in 10 ups you send.........OK Thailand is cheap to live but living on a few hundred quid rather than the few thousand you should be getting is no joke........most OPCs stay for a month then bugger off when they realise how bad it is - anon
Nov 25 2005
I am a former employee of Leisure Group Marketing Singapore and I am writing this because my conscience demands that I speak out for the thousands of Singaporean, Malaysian and Indonesians who have been scammed over the last 10 years
Now there are many notes about the way in which LGM acquires new members throught deception and this is basically true. This is common knowledge. What is not known is that they willingly purchase member data from employees of the timeshare exchange company "Resorts Condominium International" (RCI). Recently one of the RCI employees was charged with theft - what about the recipients of the data?
When I started with this company, I was somewhat niaive to the world of timeshare and actually believed the sales pitch of saving people up to 70% on cost of their holidays. It didn't take long however to find out what goes on behind the scenes.
I cannot speak about other "companies in a similar line of business" as I have no direct knowledge of their operation but with regards to LGM, I have seen and regrettably supported appauling business ethics and practices.
Stephan Tornros (former Managing Director) is mentioned many times as the instigator but he was simply an employee, like myself. We were puppets and the man holding the strings is an American, Dwayne Hill - the owner of LGM in Singapore, Hong Kong and Taiwan. He is and has always been aware of exectly what is going on with his company. Furthermore, he is the recipient of profits generated through these questionable practices.
LGM Members beware: If you had your membership upgraded or traded a membership for CVC with the cash-back option, when your cash-back date comes up, do not delay to collect. You were promised to be paid your membership fees in full by their Customer Care Division and Members Division. Didn't they tell you that the funds would be invested in the Hang Seng? 15% of the membership fees was stuck into HSBC in Singapore and the rest sunk back into the company with profits being sent to the Isle of Man off-shore account.
With more than 6000 members in Singapore due to receive cash-back of $3K - $7K in 2006/07. This means that Dwayne Hill will have to pay out somewhere between $18 - $42 million SGD over the next 2 years. Considering that total annual revenue for LGM Singapore is less than $20 million, it is likely that you will never receive your cash-back. Dwayne Hill will simply leave Singapore and use his ill-gotten gains to set-up another equally dodgy operation.
LGM will come crashing down very soon and the money will be gone.
I could provide names of other senior management directly involved in this but I feel that the primary responsibility falls on Dwayne Hill's shoulders. He has the power to do the right thing but chooses not to and is happy collecting the profits. Furthermore, he has set this up so that it will be his Singaporean employees who take the fall when it come crashing down. After all - the authorised signatory is Singaporean! - Ex LGM Employee
Nov 2 2005
I am starting a Yahoo group to gather all like minded LGM (Singapore) members who feel they are being cheated and all promises by LGM are empty lies, they are sign up with my group, and we will like to gather sufficient members to have a mass lawsuit against LGM.
My group is accessible at : http://groups.yahoo.com/group/LGMvictimsupportgroup - Sam
July 1 2005
The New Paper, 10 April 2005 - Timeshare resale companies face Double Trouble
The Electric New Paper
Timeshare resale companies face Double Trouble
Customers upset over 'poor' resale market
Complaints to Case almost double from last year
http://newpaper.asia1.com.sg/printfriendly/0,4139,86343,00.html
FIRST, the grouses started about timeshare companies using high-pressure tactics to get people to buy their holiday accommodation packages.
10 April 2005
By Fawziah Selamat
[email protected]FIRST, the grouses started about timeshare companies using high-pressure tactics to get people to buy their holiday accommodation packages.
Now, complaints are being lodged against companies which claim they can resell those packages for a fee but end up not making any sale.
The Consumers Association of Singapore (Case) said it has received a total of 234 complaints against timeshare resale companies since February 2003.
Last year, the number was 123. This is almost double the 71 complaints received in 2003 when the unhappiness first surfaced.
Case has already received 40 complaints for January and February this year.
Consumers complain that timeshare resale companies first approach and assure them that their timeshare investments can be resold at attractive prices.
The companies then collect fees ranging between $300 and $800.
NO SALE
--------
However, in many cases, months would go by without any sale being made and, worse, consumers are not given refunds of their fees.
These companies then offer severely deflated prices for these timeshare ownership - about 10 per cent of their initial prices.
Such complaints have led Case executive director Seah Seng Choon to conclude that timeshare resale companies may be operating in a poor or even non-existent resale market.
'From the cases we have come across, there is either a poor resale market or no market at all for timeshare membership in Singapore,' said Mr Seah.
'So far, none of the timeshare resale companies has been able to prove that that it can resell consumers' timeshare membership at the consumers' expected price.'
Added Mr Seah: 'If ever the resale companies are able to sell, the timeshare membership will have to be sold at a significant discount - a fact which many complainants informed us was not told to them at the point when they engaged their services.'
Complaints were made against six timeshare resale companies:
1. Vanasia,
2. Global Europ,
3. Pro-Biz Network Consultant,
4. Jeff & Kenny Consultation Services,
5. Maestro Business Consultants and
6. International Timeshare Resale Consultant.
International Timeshare was investigated by the Commercial Affairs Department for cheating in 2003. The company's former director, Tan Miah Soong, 43, was accused of cheating 38 people out of more than $150,000 by tricking them into believing he could help them sell their timeshare investments.
Tan, now unemployed, is accused of committing the offences between April 2000 and September last year. He is alleged to have first collected registration fees of between $388 and $776 from the victims.
He purportedly collected larger sums of money from them later, ranging from $1,125 to $13,750, as fees to effect the sale.
He also faces a charge of using the abbreviated form of 'limited' in the name of his business without incorporating it under the Companies Act.
Tan's case is ongoing. If found guilty, he faces a jail term of up to seven years for each charge of cheating.
Recently, The New Paper on Sunday highlighted the experiences of two people who had paid timeshare resale company, Vanasia, upfront fees of between $550 and $750 to sell off their timeshares.
However, the company refused to give customers a refund when it was unsuccessful in selling the timeshares at the agreed price. A reason it gave was that the agreed period for a successful sale had not expired.
But for some customers, it proposed much reduced prices for their timeshares.
BE CAREFUL
-----------
So far, Case said it has received 10 complaints against Vanasia.
Case said there's a need for consumers to 'exercise caution and be more discerning when engaging the services of such companies'.
Asked if timeshare resale companies should only receive fees after a successful sale rather than demand upfront fees, Mr Seah said: 'Consumers should insist that payment is to be made only if there is a sale. However, we like to leave this to the consumers to decide.'
In the meantime, consumers should take note that the marketing tactics used by timeshare resale companies come under the purview of the Consumer Protection (Fair Trading) Act (CPFTA).
This means that if the companies mislead consumers in any way, they are in breach of that Act, Mr Seah pointed out.
'For transactions carried out after 1 Mar last year, Case may take out a Voluntary Compliance Agreement (VCA) with the timeshare resale company if it refuses to settle the claims,' added Mr Seah.
'If the companies refuse to sign the VCA, then Case will be forced to take out an injunction against the companies.'
Once companies sign the VCA, they are bound under the CPFTA to cease any unfair practices such as misrepresentation of services.
Timeshare Victim's Support Group http://www.geocities.com/hcspore03/
June 24 2005
Channel NewsAsia, 7 May 2005 - Members of timeshare companies take legal action to recover money
Singapore News »
Time is GMT + 8 hours
Posted: 07 May 2005 1851 hrs
Members of timeshare companies take legal action to recover money
By Pearl Forss, Channel NewsAsia
http://www.channelnewsasia.com/stories/singaporelocalnews/view/146426/1/.html
Tired of holiday dreams that have gone awry, consumers are hitting back at timeshare companies with lawsuits, citing misrepresentation.
But some timeshare companies are now threatening to sue some of these consumers for voiding their contracts.
Started in the 1960s, timeshare is a holiday concept which has a group of people sharing the purchase cost of a vacation accommodation.
And members get to use it in increments of one week (or more) per year of use.
This accommodation can range from hotel rooms to condos, or even yachts and cruise ships.
Under the various schemes, members make a one-time downpayment of between $10,000 and $40,000 and get to stay at a premier holiday resort for a week once a year for a number of years.
That was the promise timeshare companies made to more than 15,000 members in Singapore.
But, as many of the members found out, the payments do not stop there.
Timeshare owners found they still have to pay an annual maintenance fee of a few hundred dollars for the resort shared.
Jean Yew, who paid $32,480 for a membership, said: "After paying 21k for timeshare, we still have to pay $300 in membership fees and this is ever increasing, up to $400. And in order to get out of this cycle, they asked us to purchase concept vacation club."
And some do spend another $8,000 to $20,000 buying into a concept vacation club or CVC - which also goes by other names - like vacation ownership schemes or holiday rewards club.
The scheme is supposed to help them access other timeshare resorts
But in 2003, this same group of consumers were asked to buy into the cashback scheme instead.
Adding up the dollars, a timeshare owner could have spent anything from $22,300 to $75,600.
Kenny Tan said: "They enticed me by giving me cashback, saying I can get back all my investments."
He paid $30,000 to join a timeshare scheme.
George K Krishnan, Former Timeshare Consultant, said: "Cashback scheme is just to tell people after a certain number of years, you can get money back and they guarantee you, they tell you how they put money into the FTSC index. Has anybody ever gotten any money back? No, not that I know of."
Frustrated by the endless rounds of payment, some have stopped their monthly payments on all schemes and started legal proceedings.
But a class action suit filed by 13 timeshare owners was turned down by the courts last September as each case involved different circumstances.
Undeterred, the plaintiffs are now proceeding with individual lawsuits.
Ng Soo Kok, who paid $25,000 to a timeshare company, said: "They are trapped in a rut. By paying the money they will be paying for a scam that they know it is, if they don't pay, they receive a letter from a lawyer suing them and it's really a hassle."
Lawyer Ismail Atan, Director, Gabriel Law Corporation, is representing five of them.
So far he has won one case against Leisure Marketing Group in January.
The court ordered the company to return his client $15,000 under the Consumer Act.
He said: "What this could mean is that consumers who had purchase such a product could go to courts and perhaps succeed on their own claims."
But the Consumer Association of Singapore says consumers should try to resolve their disputes with timeshare companies through CASE before seeing their lawyers.
Seah Seng Choon, Executive Director, Consumers Association of Singapore, said: "Certainly the successful court action by this member is going to encourage others to go to court but I would suggest that the consumer come to us first so we can help them to resolve the case without having to incur legal costs."
And this could be be more than $3,000.
CASE received a record number of over 2,700 complaints against timeshare companies last year.
And in the last three years, it helped resolve 2 out of 3 complaints. - CNA /ch
Timeshare Victim's Support Group
http://www.geocities.com/hcspore03/
VoyForums: Timeshare Victims Support Group
http://www.voy.com/161450/
Online petition to warn against Time-share companies operating in Singapore
http://www.petitiononline.com/hcspore3/petition.html
Mar 21 2005
The New Paper - 21 Mar 2005
TIMESHARE TIME BOMB NO SALE, NOT EVEN REFUND
Retiree and wife pay $14,000 for timeshare membership, which they find no use for
Two years later, a company offers to help them sell it for a profit, on payment of $550 fee
Eight months later, the couple are still waiting for a buyer, having rejected an offer of only $2,000 for the timeshare membershop
No refund of $550 fee if the membership remains unsold, company says
By Fawziah Selamat
YOU'VE coughed out close to $14,000 to buy a lifetime travel membership which promises you discounts on flights and accommodation in holiday destinations such as Australia and Europe,
That was two years ago. But you've since found no use for it.
So when you get a telephone call one day promising to help you sell your membership at a huge profit, you'll jump at the chance, right?
Which was precisely what retiree Salleh Salim and his wife Siti Maysara did.
That was eight months ago.
Today, they are still waiting, and wondering.
Wondering if their membership will ever be sold, and at what price.
Wondering what's going to happen to the money they've paid the company upfront to help them dispose of their holiday deal.
They are not alone.
There's been 10 other cases like theirs, says the Consumers Association of Singapore (Case).
Mr Salleh Salim and his wife said they were so happy when they got the offer from Vanasia Consultancy '00 to help them sell their membership that they visited the firm's office in Maxwell Road the next day.
Said Madam Siti, 38: 'The place was full of other people like us who wanted to know how they could sell their travel membership. The person who attended to us was also very busy manning calls even as she was talking to us.'
A Vanasia staff member told them the company could sell the travel membership within a few months, said Madam Siti.
From the upbeat mood around her, the housewife felt at one point the membership could even be sold for $20,000.
Vanasia's fee for the service? A sum of $550 - to be paid upfront.
The service was valid for a year, according to a contract the couple signed.
Said Madam Siti: 'We were desperate to sell and... we jumped at the offer.'
They didn't ask what would happen if Vanasia failed to sell their membership.
Mr Salleh, 58, said he was so relieved he 'even contemplated giving the company a cut of the sale if indeed it could make a (good) sale'.
A letter from Vanasia to Mr Salleh indicated that the company's opening sale price would be $20,000, although that price would be subject to negotiation.
So the couple waited. And waited.
Now, eight months later, they find themselves still stuck with the membership which they had bought from timeshare company LGM Limited.
They are also poorer by another $550 which they had paid to Vanasia, which is described as a 'management consultant in the travel and timeshare industry' on its website.
With no sale so far, Vanasia's latest offer to the couple is to sell their membership for a little over $2,000 - a loss of close to $12,000 for Mr Salleh's original investment.
Said Mr Salleh: 'Vanasia wrote us a letter in December telling us that was the price they could get. We had been waiting a long time for a reply from the company. And after all that waiting, we received such a paltry proposal.'
Added Madam Siti, who said the couple took two years paying off the membership purchase in instalments of about $500 every month: 'That was when I began to wonder if Vanasia could indeed fulfill the promises it made.'
Two staff members of Vanasia told The New Paper on Sunday that the $550 fee paid by Mr Salleh would not be refunded even if the membership isn't sold.
Mr Salleh has, however, not asked for a refund from Vanasia so far.
He said: 'Vanasia keeps telling us that the 12-month period isn't up yet. The staff members told me I should wait till the period is over as they will be able to get igher and higher prices for my membership the longer I wait.'
'But I'm not sure if they can, judging from the service I've received from them so far.'
SHE PAID $750 AND HAS YET TO SEE ANY RESULTS
SALES manager Gina Gui, 36, was more than willing to suffer a loss of more than $4,000 on her timeshare membership which she had bought for $18,500.
When Vanasia offered to sell it for $14,000, she paid the company $750 for its service in November 2003.
She said: '$750 wasn't a big amount and I didn't mind paying the fee if the company could sell my timeshare.
'But, after nine months, Vanasia could only offer $1,500 for my timeshare.
'That's when I wanted a refund.'
Unlike the plan Mr Salleh had signed up for, Ms Gui claimed the plan she took up allowed for a refund. However, she has yet to get her money back.
'I was told that if Vanasia was unable to sell the membership, I would get my money back. Although, even then, I would have to pay $350 as an administration fee,' said Ms Gui.
'I was fine with that as nothing's for free. If a service has been rendered, I understand that I would have to pay for it.'
But, she claimed, so far, the company has not given the rest of her money back.
Ms Gui then lodged a complaint with Case last December.
She is one of 10 Vanasia clients who had expected to get the original price or make a loss on what they had paid for their timeshare or travel membership.
However, they received offers amounting to only a small fraction of the original price quoted to them by Vanasia, and subsequently lodged their complaints withase.
Case has since taken the matter up with Vanasia to settle the disputes.
Said Case's executive director Seah Seng Choon in an e-mail: 'Vanasia informed consumers (after they had paid a fee for the company's resale service) that their timeshare could only be sold at 10 to 25 per cent of the original price.
'The 10 complainants told us they were not informed of this fact at the point of engaging the company's service and were not aware that they had to sell their timeshare at such a great discount.'
Case said such omission of material information may be a breach of the Consumer Protection (Fair Trading) Act and constitutes an unfair act.
Consumers can seek redress under the Act.
Mr Seah added Vanasia's director Cheryl Desilver, 25, had told him Vanasia was prepared to settle the matter with all the complainants.
He said: 'We're still waiting for the outcome. If the complainants are unhappy with the outcome, Case will continue to act for them.'
Ms Gui told The New Paper on Sunday that even as she is waiting to settle her case with Vanasia, other timeshare resale companies have called her offering their services.
'One company even called me to say it knew about my case with Vanasia and could help sell my timeshare for me,' she said.
'I still don't know how any of the companies got my particulars and contact number in the first place.'
Madam Siti has not lodged a complaint with Case against Vanasia.
'Mr Daran Ravin (of Global Europ) said Vanasia still has four months left to sell the membership for us under the agreement signed,' she said.
'Mr Daran said we should not be making a complaint just yet as the agreement hasn't ended.
'So I think I have to wait out the time period and see whether the company is able to sell the membership at a good price.'
The timeshare industry took top spot in terms of complaints lodged with Case over the last 12 months.
It was responsible for 158 of the 443 complaints formally lodged and handled by Case.
CAN'T SELL? 'That will never happen' says company
TO find out how Vanasia proposed to sell clients' membership in travel and timeshare schemes, The New Paper on Sunday went undercover. We used Mr Salleh's existing account and quizzed Vanasia staff on the company's practices.
A Vanasia customer service officer, who identified herself as Alison, attended to our call. So what does Vanasia do to sell its client's timeshare and travel membership?
'We put an advertisement of the client's membership on the window of our parent office in London,' said Ms Alison.
We were then told by her that the London company's name is Global Europe. A check revealed that a Singapore-registered company called Global Europ (Asia) Pte Ltd is the owner of Vanasia. In fact, Vanasia and Global Europ are located in the same building in Maxwell Road.
When asked how Vanasia came into possession of Mr Salleh's contact number and travel membership information Ms Alison said the particulars of people who have signed up for such membership go into a 'hypermart'. However, she could not explain what a 'hypermart' was.
We also asked LGM Limited, the timeshare company which sold the travel membership to Mr Salleh and Madam Siti, whether it had released client information to Vanasia. LGM did not reply by press time. What about the possibility of a refund then for Mr Salleh should Vanasia fail to sell his membership?
The agreement with Vanasia is valid for a year, said Ms Alison. And the company, she claimed, is confident it can sell the membership within that time. If it doesn't, the agreement would be extended for another year at no cost to the client.
This promise was also stated in a letter written to Mr Salleh last July by Vanasia. There was no mention of a refund of the $550 fee should Vanasia fail to sell the membership. So what if the membership isn't sold after the two years are up?
'That would never happen. We (Vanasia) have never had any problems in selling off a client's membership,' claimed Ms Alison.
When asked if Mr Salleh would get a refund of the $550 if Vanasia fails to sell the membership, the answer was no.
Ms Alison said Mr Salleh had signed for a plan that doesn't allow for a refund.
When we called Vanasia again and identified ourselves as reporters, its director Cheryl Desilver, 25, said Mr Salleh did not pay an additional $200 for a different plan which would have allowed for a refund.
When we asked about Global Europ, Ms Desilver said Global Europ is the parent company of Vanasia.
She added: 'London is not the only place where we advertise. We have links with offices in many countries to advertise clients' memberships.' Asked for the names of these companies, Ms Desilver declined, saying she didn't want clients to approach these companies themselves.
She explained that the $550 fee is for providing clients with advertising space on the Internet for a year. This, she added, was stated in the terms and conditions of their Resale Advertisement plan.
ACCESS TO INTERNET ADVERTISEMENT
Ms Desilver added that Mr Salleh would have been given a login name, password and membership number to access his Internet advertisement. This information had been given to him in a letter sent by Vanasia.
When we asked how potential buyers would then be able to gain access to the advertisement, Ms Desilver declined to answer. She said a face-to-face interview should be set up where all issues pertaining to Vanasia could then be discussed.
However, the company was hard to reach soon afterwards and Mr Daran Ravin, manager of Global Europ, refused our repeated requests for an interview.
An interview with Vanasia was initially set up for Thursday afternoon at the company's office in Maxwell Road.
But Ms Desilver later changed the venue to The New Paper's office.
Meanwhile, Madam Siti informed us she had been receiving calls from Vanasia, following our calls to the company.
'Vanasia told us that we could get our money back if we stopped talking to the press. If we didn't want our money back, they (assured) us our membership could be sold,' she said on Wednesday.
Madam Siti added that Vanasia had arranged a visit to her home to discuss the proposal on Thursday afternoon - the same day and time as our planned interview with Vanasia.
Later, Madam Siti said Vanasia told her the company would take action if she continued talking to The New Paper on Sunday. However, Ms Desilver denied that Vanasia staff members had been telling Madam Siti the company would file a suit against her.
When we arrived at Madam Siti's home in the East, only Global Europ's manager Daran Ravin was present.
A Ravindaran Kunju Raman was the initial owner of Vanasia until October 2003 when private limited company Global Europ (Asia) took over, according to a check with the Registry of Companies and Business.
Global Europ (Asia), however, lists both Mr Daran and Ms Desilver as the company's only shareholders.
Mr Daran refused our request for an interview, saying he was not prepared to answer our questions.
Madam Siti, however, was not given her money back when Mr Daran visited her.
Instead, she was told the agreement they signed with Vanasia had not ended.
Said Madam Siti: 'He kept asking me why we were talking to the press and said legal action might be taken should a negative story about Vanasia come out.'
ASK THESE QUESTIONS BEFORE SIGNING UP, LAYWYER SAYS
LAWYER Amolat Singh said consumers should ask certain questions before signing on the dotted line. These include:
How many timeshare schemes or travel memberships the company has sold.
How the company will sell its timeshare or travel memberships.
Whether the company will want exclusive rights to the membership (this affects the seller's ability to sell the membership on his own or find others to sell it for him).
Whether there is a time limit on the services rendered and, if so, what happens after the time limit has ended.
Whether there will be a refund should the company fail to sell the membership.
These questions might help people to decide whether to sign up for the resale service.
Mr Singh added that clients face an added problem should the company they've lodged complaints against be a private limited company, rather than a sole proprietorship.
'This means the people heading the company won't be personally liable even if clients can prove the company is in the wrong,' he said.
'In which case, clients may not be able to recover their losses if the company says it doesn't have the money to pay up.'
Copyright © 2005 Singapore Press Holdings Ltd. All rights reserved.
Mar 15 2005
Good news for Europeans but bad news for Singaporeans, as the crooks move East.
“Topping the number of complaints relating to fair trading was the controversial timeshare industry” says the Consumer Association of Singapore (CASE) – reporter
Mar 6 2005
Last week I got a call from a company called Oriental Travel offering me S$1000 (US$625) or free flight vouchers and 14 day sfree resort stay if my wife and I attended a 2 hour presentation at their office at Shaw House on Orchard Road. They insisted they were nto trying to sell anything and my wife and I were not under obligation to buy. I usually never go for these but they were quite persistent and said their flight vouchers did not rquite us to make other purchases (which we later found was a lie).
The wasted an hour before starting a pesentation on benefits of becoming an associate of a company called Gold Crown Resorts whcih coud enable us,for example, to book a Water Bugalow in Tahiti for S$530 (US$330) A WEEK for 2 persons and S$1300 (US$815) for 8 persons! Flights on Singapore Airlines, which normally cost S$1200 per person coudl be purchased for S$600!! To be able to do all these we would have to sign up, then and there, and pay them S$19,980 (US$12,500) for lifetime membership that can be willed or sold. If we came back the next day the deal would cost us S$32,000 for a 20 year validity.
We said no thank you and walked away with out flight and hotel vouchers which have all sorts aof terms and conditions attached to them and involve paying them bookign and administration fees etc (I'll skip the gory details). In short, nothing that we could really use unless we have all the time in the world to cut through the legalese and figure out a way to avoid getting ripped off (what's shocking was that these chaps claimed to be affliliated to the Singapore Tourism Board and NATAS - a lotal body of travel agents).
I later did a Google rearch for Gold Crown Resort and found this site which confirmed that we took the right decision in walking away. I would urge everyone in Singapore to beware of these scamsters and will try to get the authorities ot investiage them. If anyoone has had prior experience of dealign with this company please share your experience. Thanks, - OT.
Feb 8 2005
In our attempt to take a concerted and well thought out action against these unscrupulous and blacklisted companies in Singapore, we ought to be more vigilant and discreet in who we communicate over the net.
I am writing to express my concern over one individual George, who seems to know a lot of these companies and now profess to be on our side. We did some background check and these are the facts emerged from the best of our knowledge in the case of our background checks. In the interest of fairness, our checks were done thoroughly and we invite you to draw your own conclusions from it and thereafter do your own risk assessment with regards to communicating with him.
George was working for nearly four years in the blacklisted company, Interval Resorts Network. It was quite difficult to get information during his tenure there. This is one of the notorious companies that he first worked for.
He next moved to the competitor Leisure Group Marketing in Ngee Ann City immediately after he left I.R.N.. He worked there for a couple of months in L.G.M. and yet most info came from sources here. He apparently had been promised as a sales manager position but the management reneged on the offer. Rumour has it that the then M.D. and George could not see eye to eye on certain issues yet others say he was fired for persistent misrepresentation. In any case, George left in a huff. Incidentally even though he worked in LGM for a short while, most of the information was gathered from here and from somebody who knows George well.
George next went to work for Oriental Travel at Wheelock Place. Again he did not stay in this company for long and his stay was somewhat uneventful.
From here our sources say he went to yet another timeshare company- Emperor Resorts for a job. This scumbag company in turn looked on him with suspicion and did not employ him. Now there were no more companies for George to work for in the industry.
In the course of our background checks we also found that George is also the brother of an ex-national footballer K. Kannan, who incidentally was jailed for corruption during football competition after an investigation by the CPIB.
There are also other ?domestic personal issues? which we found our about George which we feel is not relevant or appropriate to mention here.
We are not saying that George?s background or allegiances are suspect but merely to warn people to be more circumspect in revealing too much about our plans or actions we may have organised against these unscrupulous companies. Go by your gut feeling but do not reveal more than you need to. We will never know who our enemies are!!! In the meantime, let?s unite and fight these unscrupulous companies.- illuminator
Jan 12 2005
We too got promised a prize by LGM provided we sit through a 75 minute presentation. Eventually after 3 hours we told them we do not wish to sign up and decided to take only the prize of an 8 days/7 nights stay in either of 6 choice locations.
The 'prize' appears to be very fishy, so I decided to do a Google Search on LGM and what did I see - your Crimeshare Webpage on Singapore Scam!
I cannot believe this kind of thing could happen in the heart of Singapore and openly along Orchard Road as well. I pity those people who have been cheated and made to sign up by such a company like LGM. As suggested there is a need for people like us to do something and do something I did by writing an email to your Singapore Police Force making the complaint while pointing to this Crimeshare Webpage.
They came back to me saying they have referred the matter to the Commercial Affairs Department of CID and the Singapore Tourism Board to keep them informed of the dubious practice. The email address to reach the appropriatre authorities in the SPF would be
[email protected] - KL Street Walkers
Oct 30 2004
Since the day i brought the Timeshare membership from ERI (Singapore) it's a hell for me. Today i received a letter from a law firm call Gurdep and Gill, they are representing ERI in demanding me to paid up my balance amount due to them.
They have lied so much during the presentation, overpriced me by $7500 and i am prepared to gave up what the $9000+ that i have paid, why do they still have to push me like that?? imagine it's in a lawful society like Singapore. If anyone feel that they are able to help, i am willing to pay, but i will never never part with my money to those blood suckers again. do sent me an email at
[email protected] if anyone have any advice.
Oct 29 2004
Interval Resorts Network in Singapore is one of Dennis NewÂ’s little babies. Little wonder that the company gives rise to concern by Timeshare Vigilante. - anon
Oct 28 2004
Hi, visitors to Singapore beware of the 2 notorious Timeshare companies in Singapore - namely Interval Resorts Network (IRN) located at 6th Floor Faber House and Leisure Group Marketing (LGM)located at Tower B, Takashimaya Shopping Centre, 16th floor. The bosses of these two comapanies are British crook, SIMON PAUL CHRISTOPHER COOK (IRN) and Swedish pig, STEPHEN TORNROS. IRN is marketing Asian Travel Club in Thailand and LGM is marketing Calipso Plaza, in Coolangatta, Goldcoast,Queensland. Many Singaporeans and foreigners alike have been conned by these two companies. Visit http://www.voy.com/161450/ and http://www.geocities.com/hcspore03/ to read the testimonies of victims who have been duped into signing. - Timeshare Vigilante
May 22 2004
I got timeshare from ERI. After reading your website, I realised that it was a BIG mistake I had make 4 yrs ago. I will be taking action soon with CASE. Hopefully they can help me to resolve the matters. How can I take legal action against ERI, can you advice? - Cheated
Apr 27 2004
i am from singapore. i worked as a timeshare salesman for Interval Resorts Network at Faber House and Leisure Group Marketing at Takashimaya Shopping Centre. The bosses of these companies namely Simon Cook and Stephen Tornros have been hookwinking the singapore public on timeshare. Both Simon Cook and Stephen Tornros although business rivals are friends. IRN is marketing Asian Travel Club with a so-called renewal 30 yr leasehold membership and LGM is marketing the Calypso Plaza resort in Australia. I am familiar with the deceitful means by which these two companies market their membership and cause untold hardships to people lured into their decks and taken advantage. Like all timeshare companies they prey on peoples 'greed' and 'impulsiveness'. I deeply regret working for these two companies and sincerely apologise to those people who purchase timeshare membership through me. The authorities in singapore seem to be oblivious of the going-ons in these two companies. - foreman
Apr 26 2004
listen whats happening to denise men 1 dead last week big alan now john patt in forida on life support machine - anon
Apr 26 2004
A very good forum for Singaporeans http://www.voy.com/161450/
Mar 28 2004
To SB, regarding your enquiries in to LRD or regency leisure development as known now! These people are Serbians by the name of Zoran and Dragan, after making a fortune in Patong resort and Patong Tower, they opened a Club Class office, then didnt pay, so all the clients lost out, just like you will if you go ahead, not only do they not pay for the product they also do not pay their staff! last seen in Singapore doing another scam! yes they have the answers for everything and seem nice, but they are just dirty rotten liars! - ex employee
Mar 21 2004
I am an ex staff of LGM and I like to extend my appologies to the people I had sold holiday club membership and resorts ownership. I was jobless for quite a number of months and I need to feed my family.Initially I didn't know it's a fraud when I joined the company.I came to know about it after a few months but I still continued to work in LGM because of my family. I always confided to my wife when I made a deal because I felt so rotten. My wife understood my feeling and asked me to stop working in LGM after she found a job in a factory. I am still jobless but my conscience is clear and can sleep better. I believed that some of the sales persons are in the same situation as me. Please forgive me for what I have done. - Sorry
Mar 19 2004
I live in Singapore. Several years back I was conned by this company called "Interval Resorts Network" operating from this address: 230, Orchard Road, #08-230 Faber House, Singapore 238854. It's run by an out and out scumbag called Mr. Roy Daniel who's pretty thorough with the law and it's very hard to *legally* find fault with their scam. This company has an army of touts accosting passers-by and tourists all along Orchard Road in Singapore. After the usual "you won a prize" gimmick, I was sent to their office to "claim" the prize. It was very late in the evening, and there were a bunch of American, Chinese and Indian sales droids using extreme high pressure tactics to coerce people into signing away their earnings. I was too tired and fell for it. - Edmund Goh
Wrote away $10K of my hard earned money and been regretting it. Took me over a year to get over it. I filed a complaint with the CASE (Consumer association of Singapore) and now they say they have around 5000-6000 cases coming to them every year. It's a real shame, I see so many old people and pensioners getting sucked dry. Given the powerful nature of the government in Singapore I am surprised they aren't lifting a finger to stop or control these scams.
Mar 10 2004
Hi, IRN is on its prowl in Singapore again. This time it is using a marketing company name - Asian Travel Club (ATC). I was told I won the 1 week free trip and sent to an office in Fable House in Orchard Road. The presentation lasted more than 80 minutes, my doubts were confirmed when I requested for a travel package to Thailand as I am, in fact planning a trip soon. I knew these people were cheats when I the manager demo an internet link to their 'acclaimed' site which did state a Thailand holiday package which in fact, the site belongs to an independent legitimate travel agency which I am a frequent customer. I knew the travel agency is not affiliated with ATC, so I made my way out asap. Singaporeans and Tourists alike, please DO NOT BE CONNED by the surveys and free vouchers! The so-call membership fee is a whopping S$23,000! What a Scam! - Singapore Girl
Jan 25 2004
My name is Stephan Tornros, I have been mentioned in your Singapore section Whatever you whish to write or list as comments is obviously your call, I would however request that you delete " frustrated bi-sexual " since it is not particulary accurate and in all fairness not a very nice or neccesary thing to put in. Your comment on this would be very welcome.
Dec 5 2003 Timeshare Shit of the year. Leisure Group Marketing Singapore. The Managing Director is a man/thing called Stefan Tonros, he is a frustrated Bi-sexual. He not only cheats his clients but cheats his staff also. The package they sell not only doesn't work but it doe's not exist. I work in LGM for 7 months and we where taght to tell the people anything to get a deal and the managers were the same. And some people pay less than others to. I working for a good company now here and am glad to not be telling lies for Mr Tonros anymore. - Mantis
Sept 13 2003 Hard copies of this letter together with info from CrimeShare were
posted today to -
Media Corp News
Streats Publication
Registrar of Companies & Business
Singapore Tourism Board
Consumer Association of Singapore
You have my permission to put it on the web. LGM will get their copy
next week.
---
September 11, 2003
L.G.M. Limited (Singapore Branch)
Dear Sir,
Further to my Letter of Complaint dated July 14 2003, a copy already sent to the Consumers Association of Singapore (CASE), I have had misgivings about your company. Nevertheless, I was prepared to give LGM the benefit of doubt after receiving the travel brochure requested and the 6-months completely free subscription of the Far Eastern Economic Review and the Asian Wall Street Journal, as promised.
Recently, I booked a one-way economy class airfare to Kuala Lumpur by SIA and was told by your staff Ms. Chandrika that the fare was $190. I trusted her and paid for the ticket, but later I discovered from another travel agent that it should be $25 less. I was about to make another complaint, when your Client Liaison Officer, Ms Patricia informed me that the air-fare should be $165. She added that the $25 would be taken out of the last installment, and all I need to pay was $975. However, I received a letter from your Credit Department dated August 26, asking for a payment of $1000 as the last installment. What has happen to the arrangement made by Ms Patricia? This prompted me to do a check on your company, which I regret, I should have done much earlier.
From the Web under LEISURE GROUP MARKETING leading on to CRIMESHARE SINGAPORE SCAM, there were complaints from Singaporeans and Malaysian Tourists about the “tactics” used by your staff to get them to sign on the Concepts Vacation Programme. The complaints have A CONSISTENT PATTERN OF TRUTH BECAUSE THE M.O. IS SOMEWHAT IDENTICAL TO WHAT I EXPERIENCED. First, there was the filling-up of a Lucky Draw Forms after lunch at Grand City Restaurant, where contacts are obtained. Then, came “the bogus lucky draw of a holiday trip”, and the condition of the 45 minutes presentation as described on the Web. A news clip of the President’s Charity was passed around and we were informed that the LGM contributes generously to charity. Is that supposed to enhance credibility? Then, I received a copy of LGM’s Certification of Registration (F05553K). Am I suppose to believe that INVOLVING THE RCB makes the MO ACCEPTABLE TO THE SINGAPORE AUTHORITIES? In my case, I got the hand-clutching by your staff Ms. Judy (each time I wanted to leave), and “the begging to sign up or she will lose her job”. After work and with no dinner, after 2 to 3 hours of badgering, a person just wants to grab back one’s I.C. and Credit Card and get away. Furthermore, with so much unemployment, and her walking disability, she made me feel sorry for her. Perhaps all these are part of the MO, but she was really “good” in the ACT. The evidence above confirms my misgivings about LGM. For your information, copies of all documents have gone to your associates in England and Australia, where I believe part of the money has gone. Let them publicly declare whether they encourage or condone the practices of LGM (Singapore Branch).
Even though I received a letter adjusting the last installment to the figure of $975, the credibility is gone. I, officially and publicly renounce whatever Contract made, and shall report any future communication from LGM as a harassment. I do not intend to benefit a single cent from this exercise, even though I have already paid SGD 3,925 to your company and your Australian associate. After discounting the air-fare at SGD 165 and other administrative costs and so-called “freebies” like tee-shirts and literature, instead of a refund, I want LGM (Singapore Branch) to make a DONATION OF $3,700 to the CONSUMERS ASSOCIATION OF SINGAPORE, so that it can continue the good work of protecting the interests of all Singapore consumers. CASE has my official and public agreement to pursue the donation from the Company. I leave the matter the to the relevant authorities and the Press to follow up for the benefit of all Singaporeans and tourists. - anon
July 30 2003 To Singapore Tourists - If any of you also have the same problem with Leisure Group Marketing (LGM) in Singapore and or Concep Vacation Club (CVC), please drop an email to
[email protected].
Share your experience and if you agree, let's sue that company to Singapore court. We may share the cost.
To Singaporean/lawyers - please help us if you know the procedure how to submit tourist crime report to Singapore Government.- tks
July 7 2003 Hi there people in Singapore.
It is sad that only after I was tricked by this bunch of fraudsters called "Leisure Group Marketing", I read an article on this website warning people about them.
Would like to reiterate that this gang (which operates from floor 14,16 Takashimaya in Orchard), ARE frauds, and BIG TIME FRAUDS.
They have a couple of men/women from this group just outside the Orchard MRT - they pounce on you to help them fill a survey after which they ask you to 'scratch' a card. You will then be told(ALWAYS) that you won a free trip to one of the places: Australia/Bali/Malaysia/Thailand.
This happened with me yesterday. I was obviously tempted, and wanted my "free gift"!! Only to realise a "condition" -- I was supposed to sit through a 45 minutes presentation AFTER which I would be given the gift. I consented.
Only later I realised that the "presentation" lasted 2 and 1/2 hours instead of 45minutes! And by the end of it, I was fuming and calling them names!
The "sales people" REFUSED to divulge the final "membership fee" until the end. The bomb figure is a whopping 26,000 Sing Dollars! When I refused the offer, they asked how much could I pay; to put them off I said MAYBE installments of S$1000 per month. They were ready to agree to that too, provided...blah blah blah...gave me some more of their high pitched sales CRAP!
At the end of the "presentation", I gave them solid downside of their plan, to which the "manager" reacted very rudely. He said "This plan is not for everybody. You cannot afford it, so you may leave, since I have many other couples to assess"!! When I told this chap how my money would just get blocked in this plan, he said "We are not an investment company. We just want people to take holidays and make babies"!
That was it! I was so shocked, I almost pulled him by the collar!
Not only are these guys BIG TIME FRAUDS, they are downright RUDE. They call themselves holiday makers, but their idea of a good holiday is totally skewed.
I am new to Singapore, and I was shocked by such fraudstery! Am still trying to figure what more I can do to book these guys.- ANON
Sept 2 2002
Good day my friends in Singapore,
I'm from Kuala Lumpur and last weekend i was walking along Orchard Road happily shopping with my wife when we were approached by this young man. He asked us to assist him in a short survey and we did. Upon completing the survey he gave us each a lucky draw coupon. My wife was told she had won the first prize of a 1 week stay in any country !! But we had to go by the office to pick up the voucher, upon reaching the office we were told that we had to sit through a 90min consultation with one of its agents. So i agreed. Only when we went into the "meeting" room, did i realise we were conned into some Timesharing bluff. After listening through the 90mins, they dragged on for another 30mins. That wasn't the bad stuff. What really upset me was the way they treated us when i told them that i was not interested or keen to participate in the programme, i just wanted the 1 week FREE stay voucher. To my astonishment, when i said these words, the real UGLY faces started to show. The so called Managress named Ms.Sylvia was very RUDE when i politely turned them down as they had mentioned it was a "NO OBLIGATION CONSULTATION" chat. Is this the way we should be treated ? I am for one a tourist and visitor in your country, but this company called Interval Resorts Network located on the 6th floor of the OG Shopping Centre in Orchard Road had wasted 2 1/2 hours of my time and totally showed me the ugly side of these Timesharing Companies.
I would like to share this information with any unknowing couples or local Singapore residence to beware of them. I have done a check in the internet and found that this company Interval Resorts Network is part of a international crime ring. They have been knowned to Defraud and Cheat people. For more info on this, please visit ; www.crimeshare.cc/list.html (this company is listed in there)
Thank You.
mswf
Kuala Lumpur, Malaysia.
Apr 21 2002
I live in Singapore and there are a few high pressure organizations here selling RCI memberships. One is "Interval Resorts Network, Pte. Ltd (IRN)" which sells "Multiple travel club (MTC)" memberships. MTC is based in Thailand and are affiliated to RCI. IRN does the usual high pressure selling. You could include these guys in your database.
Manfred
Apr 9 2002
Beware of a group operating outside of Orchard Road in the main shopping district of Singapore. They call themselves Leisure Group Marketing, operating a so-called Concept Vacation Club. So what makes them untrustworthy? They don't disclose the final "bomb" figure unless you make an agreement with them, high pressure sales pitch, refusal to divulge information for your own homework/research, all the top hotels are with them so they want you believe they are credible, stating they operate in Singapore therefore they are supposedly legitimate, they only target tourist couples. The end result: the try to make you feel guilty if you refuse their "unbelievable" deal they offer you on your holidays ... However, their deal is precisely that - it is UNBELIEVABLE! The biggest bull-dust is that they want you to commit first without divulging their final figure. So would you buy something that you don't know the price of??? Of course not! They're absolute scam-artists!!! Avoid t!
hem at all costs. No legal action taken as I told them NO emphatically! However, I am compiling a detailed report to send to the STB in Singapore to raise their consciousness on unscrupulous operators as LGM / CVC. Your website assisted in my research into their activities. Thanks!
ByBr
Jan 20 2002
A company called Oriental Travel Pte Ltd is an affiliate of Gold Crown Resort. From the brochures and what was mentioned, it appears that they are also affiliated with The New Century Group, Full Circle Holidays, and Vacation Time. It may be prudent to consult the Black List here. So, BEWARE!
anon
Sept 17
Crooks moving East may be good news for Europeans – but not for the Singaporeans.
The Straits Times reports on ?? both stories no doubt instantly recognisable by Europeans who have suffered similar fates for the past few years.
Kim