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  • Moderator
    Rock^Star's Avatar
    11,142 posts since Jul '05
    • Originally posted by BanguIzai:

      Ok, this time I did checked for an answer.

      The answer is 患得患失 .

      Fabulous dude. That one went into my hibernation drive years ago. Ok so that's the word! haha!

    • Originally posted by BanguIzai:

      Ok, that's the usual way for translation when Chinese and Japanese encounter unfamiliar foreign words to translate into meaningful yet correspondingly similar-sounding counterparts.

      Can you provide some examples in relation to "interesting that jap names all are words of nature"?

      I extracted this from Kinwashi's tour japan thread:

      1. Sato meaning "help wisteria" (佐藤)
      2. Suzuki meaning "small bell tree" (鈴木)
      3. Takahashi meaning "tall bridge" (高橋)
      4. Tanaka meaning "rice field middle" (田中)
      5. Watanabe meaning "cross boundary" (渡辺)
      6. Ito meaning "that wisteria" (伊藤)
      7. Yamamoto meaning "mountain true" (山本)
      8. Nakamura meaning "in a village" (中村)
      9. Ohayashi meaning "small forest" (小林)
      10. Kobayashi meaning "small forest" (小林)
      11. Kato meaning "increase wisteria" (加藤)
      12. Kichida meaning "joy rice field" (吉田)
      13. Yoshida meaning "joy rice field" (吉田)
      14. Yamada meaning "mountain rice field" (山田)
      15. Sasaki meaning "help tree" (佐々木)
      16. Yamaguchi meaning "mountain mouth" (山口)
      17. Matsumoto meaning "pine tree true" (松本)
      18. Ine meaning "town above" (井上)
      19. Inoue meaning "town above" (井上)
      20. Saito meaning "purification wisteria" (斎藤)
      21. Kimura meaning "tree village" (木村)
      22. Hayashi meaning "grove" (林)
      23. Rin meaning "grove" (林)
      24. Kiyomizu meaning "pure water" (清水)
      25. Shimizu meaning "pure water" (清水)
      26. Yamasaki meaning "mountain cape" (山崎)
      27. Ikeda meaning "pond rice field" (池田)
      28. Abe meaning "section nook" (阿部)
      29. Mori meaning "forest" (森)
      30. Hashimoto meaning "bridge true" (橋本)
      31. Yamashita meaning "mountain below" (山下)
      32. Ishikawa meaning "stone river" (石川)
      33. Nakashima meaning "center island" (中島)
      34. Maeda meaning "in front of rice field" (前田)
      35. Fujita meaning "wisteria rice field" (藤田)
      36. Ogawa meaning "small river" (小川)
      37. Kokawa meaning "small river" (小川)
      38. Okada meaning "hill rice field" (岡田)
      39. Gato meaning "behind wisteria" (後藤)
      40. Goto meaning "behind wisteria" (後藤)
      41. Hasegawa meaning "long valley river" (長谷川)
      42. Hayagawa meaning "long valley river" (長谷川)
      43. Samurakami meaning "village above" (村上)
      44. Murakami meaning "village above" (村上)
      45. Kondo meaning "near wisteria" (近藤)
      46. Chikafuji meaning "near wisteria" (近藤)
      47. Ishii meaning "stone well" (石井)
      48. Sakamoto meaning "hill true" (坂本)
      49. Endo meaning "distant wisteria" (遠藤)
      50. Aoki meaning "green tree" (青木)
      51. Fujii meaning "wisteria well" (藤井)
      52. Nishimura meaning "west village" (西村)
      53. Fukuda meaning "lucky rice field" (福田)
      54. Oota meaning "large rice field" (太田)
      55. Miura meaning "three bays" (三浦)
      56. Fujihara meaning "wisteria meadow" (藤原)
      57. Okamoto meaning "hill true" (岡本)
      58. Matsuda meaning "pine tree rice field" (松田)
      59. Saitou meaning "alike wisteria" (斉藤)
      60. Nakagawa meaning "middle river" (中川)
      61. Nakano meaning "middle field" (中野)
      62. Harada meaning "meadow rice field" (原田)
      63. Ono meaning "small field" (小野)
      64. Kono meaning "small field" (小野)
      65. Sanu meaning "small field" (小野)
      66. Takeuchi meaning "bamboo house" (竹内)
      67. Tamura meaning "rice field village" (田村)
      68. Kaneko meaning "gold child" (金子)
      69. Wada meaning "Japanese rice field" (和田)
      70. Nakayama meaning "middle mountain" (中山)
      71. Ishida meaning "stone rice field" (石田)
      72. Ageda meaning "upper rice field" (上田)
      73. Ueda meaning "upper rice field" (上田)
      74. Kamida meaning "upper rice field" (上田)
      75. Jouda meaning "upper rice field" (上田)
      76. Morita meaning "forest rice field" (森田)
      77. Hara meaning "meadow" (原)
      78. Shibata meaning "firewood rice field" (柴田)
      79. Sakai meaning "sake town" (酒井)
      80. Sakei meaning "sake town" (酒井)
      81. Kudo meaning "construct wisteria" (工藤)
      82. Kodo meaning "construct wisteria" (工藤)
      83. Yokoyama meaning "side mountain" (横山)
      84. Miyazaki meaning "palace cape" (宮崎)
      85. Miyamoto meaning "palace true" (宮本)
      86. Uchida meaning "within rice field" (内田)
      87. Kouki meaning "tall tree" (高木)
      88. Takaki meaning "tall tree" (高木)
      89. Ando meaning "peaceful wisteria" (安藤)
      90. Taniguchi meaning "valley mouth" (谷口)
      91. Oono meaning "large field" (大野)
      92. Imai meaning "now town" (今井)
      93. Maruyama meaning "round mountain" (丸山)
      94. Kouda meaning "tall rice field" (高田)
      95. Takata meaning "tall rice field" (高田)
      96. Kawano meaning "river field" (河野)
      97. Kouno meaning "river field" (河野)
      98. Fujimoto meaning "wisteria true" (藤本)
      99. Ojima meaning "small island" (小島)
      100. Kojima meaning "small island" (小島)
      101. Takeda meaning "warrior rice field" (武田)
  • JerryJan's Avatar
    884 posts since Aug '09
    • Originally posted by BanguIzai:

      working.  So Auntie which kind of Teochew do you speak?  (examples: There are Swatow Teochews, Kekyeo Teochews, Pouleng Teochews, Haihong-Lockhong Teochews, Nam'ao Teochews, Chao'An Teochews, Raoping Teochews, Huilai Teochews, and Tenghai Teochews)

      omg ,  I just know normal teochew icon_redface.gif

      nvr know got so many types even embarrassed.png

  • BanguIzai's Avatar
    7,563 posts since Mar '10
    • Originally posted by JerryJan:

      omg ,  I just know normal teochew icon_redface.gif

      nvr know got so many types even embarrassed.png

      You know how to type in Teochew?  Can type Teochew one, then we all can improve our Teochews

    • Originally posted by Rock^Star:

       

      Fabulous dude. That one went into my hibernation drive years ago. Ok so that's the word! haha!


      Aiya, I checked internet one mah, or else my one also went into hibernation liao la

      Edited by BanguIzai 27 Jul `11, 3:52AM
    • Originally posted by Rock^Star:

      I extracted this from Kinwashi's tour japan thread:

      1. Sato meaning "help wisteria" (佐藤)
      2. Suzuki meaning "small bell tree" (鈴木)
      3. Takahashi meaning "tall bridge" (高橋)
      4. Tanaka meaning "rice field middle" (田中)
      5. Watanabe meaning "cross boundary" (渡辺)
      6. Ito meaning "that wisteria" (伊藤)
      7. Yamamoto meaning "mountain true" (山本)
      8. Nakamura meaning "in a village" (中村)
      9. Ohayashi meaning "small forest" (小林)
      10. Kobayashi meaning "small forest" (小林)
      11. Kato meaning "increase wisteria" (加藤)
      12. Kichida meaning "joy rice field" (吉田)
      13. Yoshida meaning "joy rice field" (吉田)
      14. Yamada meaning "mountain rice field" (山田)
      15. Sasaki meaning "help tree" (佐々木)
      16. Yamaguchi meaning "mountain mouth" (山口)
      17. Matsumoto meaning "pine tree true" (松本)
      18. Ine meaning "town above" (井上)
      19. Inoue meaning "town above" (井上)
      20. Saito meaning "purification wisteria" (斎藤)
      21. Kimura meaning "tree village" (木村)
      22. Hayashi meaning "grove" (林)
      23. Rin meaning "grove" (林)
      24. Kiyomizu meaning "pure water" (清水)
      25. Shimizu meaning "pure water" (清水)
      26. Yamasaki meaning "mountain cape" (山崎)
      27. Ikeda meaning "pond rice field" (池田)
      28. Abe meaning "section nook" (阿部)
      29. Mori meaning "forest" (森)
      30. Hashimoto meaning "bridge true" (橋本)
      31. Yamashita meaning "mountain below" (山下)
      32. Ishikawa meaning "stone river" (石川)
      33. Nakashima meaning "center island" (中島)
      34. Maeda meaning "in front of rice field" (前田)
      35. Fujita meaning "wisteria rice field" (藤田)
      36. Ogawa meaning "small river" (小川)
      37. Kokawa meaning "small river" (小川)
      38. Okada meaning "hill rice field" (岡田)
      39. Gato meaning "behind wisteria" (後藤)
      40. Goto meaning "behind wisteria" (後藤)
      41. Hasegawa meaning "long valley river" (長谷川)
      42. Hayagawa meaning "long valley river" (長谷川)
      43. Samurakami meaning "village above" (村上)
      44. Murakami meaning "village above" (村上)
      45. Kondo meaning "near wisteria" (近藤)
      46. Chikafuji meaning "near wisteria" (近藤)
      47. Ishii meaning "stone well" (石井)
      48. Sakamoto meaning "hill true" (坂本)
      49. Endo meaning "distant wisteria" (遠藤)
      50. Aoki meaning "green tree" (青木)
      51. Fujii meaning "wisteria well" (藤井)
      52. Nishimura meaning "west village" (西村)
      53. Fukuda meaning "lucky rice field" (福田)
      54. Oota meaning "large rice field" (太田)
      55. Miura meaning "three bays" (三浦)
      56. Fujihara meaning "wisteria meadow" (藤原)
      57. Okamoto meaning "hill true" (岡本)
      58. Matsuda meaning "pine tree rice field" (松田)
      59. Saitou meaning "alike wisteria" (斉藤)
      60. Nakagawa meaning "middle river" (中川)
      61. Nakano meaning "middle field" (中野)
      62. Harada meaning "meadow rice field" (原田)
      63. Ono meaning "small field" (小野)
      64. Kono meaning "small field" (小野)
      65. Sanu meaning "small field" (小野)
      66. Takeuchi meaning "bamboo house" (竹内)
      67. Tamura meaning "rice field village" (田村)
      68. Kaneko meaning "gold child" (金子)
      69. Wada meaning "Japanese rice field" (和田)
      70. Nakayama meaning "middle mountain" (中山)
      71. Ishida meaning "stone rice field" (石田)
      72. Ageda meaning "upper rice field" (上田)
      73. Ueda meaning "upper rice field" (上田)
      74. Kamida meaning "upper rice field" (上田)
      75. Jouda meaning "upper rice field" (上田)
      76. Morita meaning "forest rice field" (森田)
      77. Hara meaning "meadow" (原)
      78. Shibata meaning "firewood rice field" (柴田)
      79. Sakai meaning "sake town" (酒井)
      80. Sakei meaning "sake town" (酒井)
      81. Kudo meaning "construct wisteria" (工藤)
      82. Kodo meaning "construct wisteria" (工藤)
      83. Yokoyama meaning "side mountain" (横山)
      84. Miyazaki meaning "palace cape" (宮崎)
      85. Miyamoto meaning "palace true" (宮本)
      86. Uchida meaning "within rice field" (内田)
      87. Kouki meaning "tall tree" (高木)
      88. Takaki meaning "tall tree" (高木)
      89. Ando meaning "peaceful wisteria" (安藤)
      90. Taniguchi meaning "valley mouth" (谷口)
      91. Oono meaning "large field" (大野)
      92. Imai meaning "now town" (今井)
      93. Maruyama meaning "round mountain" (丸山)
      94. Kouda meaning "tall rice field" (高田)
      95. Takata meaning "tall rice field" (高田)
      96. Kawano meaning "river field" (河野)
      97. Kouno meaning "river field" (河野)
      98. Fujimoto meaning "wisteria true" (藤本)
      99. Ojima meaning "small island" (小島)
      100. Kojima meaning "small island" (小島)
      101. Takeda meaning "warrior rice field" (武田)

      I seriously never went to see that thread before at all.

      What did you deduce from this list?

  • Moderator
    Rock^Star's Avatar
    11,142 posts since Jul '05
    • Originally posted by BanguIzai:

      I seriously never went to see that thread before at all.

      What did you deduce from this list?

      Well...just deduced that all jap names are actually words of nature.

  • BanguIzai's Avatar
    7,563 posts since Mar '10
    • Originally posted by Rock^Star:

      Well...just deduced that all jap names are actually words of nature.

      Japanese surnames (last names) have relatively short history (200 years at most). It is not written on that website which you quoted, that they were required to submit their surnames to the government by a stipulated date, so the easiest way is to choose words from that resemble the place of their surroundings.

      Example:

      During Meiji era, you, Rock^Star, did not have a surname, people just call you by your name eg. 守太 + (郎) "guy", your family happen to live in the village overlooking the great rocks beneath the mountains and the shimmering stars of the night, so you decided to register your family name as a combination of "Rock" 「石」(using the  いし "ishi" Native Kunyomi pronunciation) and  "Star" 「星」 (using the 星 "hoshi" Native Kunyomi pronunciation) ⇒ 石星(いしほし Ishihoshi(simple compounding of 2 separate words), so you are now called 石星守太 (Ishihoshi Suta) > Suta = "Star" in Japanese pronunciation.

      Your uncle's family, who just lives beside you, also decides the "great rocks" and the "shimmering stars" are nice to use as a surname, but they registered under the pronunciation 石星(いしぼし Ishiboshi (with 星 undergoing the process of "Rendaku 連濁" in Japanese), therefore from then on, your uncle's family's name is considered different from your family's even though the characters are the same.

      Your first cousin's family, who also lives in the same village, also decides the "great rocks" and the "shimmering stars" suits them, but they registered under the Sino-Japanese Onyomi reading of "Rock" 「石」(しゃく "shaku") and the Sino-Japanese Onyomi reading of "Star" 「星」(しょう "shō"), becoming the 石星(しゃくじょうShakujō) family,  resulting in a different family lineage from then on.

      Your second cousin's family, who also lives in the same village, also decides the "great rocks" and the "shimmering stars" to be the most convenient naming convention, but due to their personal preferences, they chose the character 「岩」 (いわ "iwa") over the character 「石」 , therefore their family became the 岩星(いわほし Iwahoshi  ,  or could have chosen  いわぼし Iwaboshi , forms too) family, again is a different lineage under the government records.

      Your nephew's family, who also lives in the same village, does not like either the "great rocks" or the "shimmering stars" at all, so they decided to name themselves with the "small forest" that lies behind their dwelling, so they registered their family name as 小林(こばやし Kobayashi and thus became the Kobayashi family lineage from then onwards.

      Therefore, different families from different geographical areas could end up with the same newly created surnames,  while kinships within families from the same geographical area may end up with differently created new surnames.

      This was the state of affairs during that time.

      ◆◇◆◇◆◇◆◇◆◇◆◇◆◇◆◇◆◇◆◇◆◇◆◇◆◇◆◇◆◇

      Other than surnames, you can take a look at this very comprehensive webpage to see common Japanese first names (i.e. given names):

      http://www.geocities.jp/nekononamae_hitononamae/index.html

      (please click the second portion titled "人の名前" to choose according to the Japanese alphabetical order )   (>the first portion "猫の名前" are cat's names, not people's names, so don't click<)

  • Moderator
    Rock^Star's Avatar
    11,142 posts since Jul '05
    • Originally posted by BanguIzai:

      Japanese surnames (last names) have relatively short history (200 years at most). It is not written on that website which you quoted, that they were required to submit their surnames to the government by a stipulated date, so the easiest way is to choose words from that resemble the place of their surroundings.

      Example:

      During Meiji era, you, Rock^Star, did not have a surname, people just call you by your name eg. 守太 + (郎) "guy", your family happen to live in the village overlooking the great rocks beneath the mountains and the shimmering stars of the night, so you decided to register your family name as a combination of "Rock" 「石」(using the  いし "ishi" Native Kunyomi pronunciation) and  "Star" 「星」 (using the 星 "hoshi" Native Kunyomi pronunciation) ⇒ 石星(いしほし Ishihoshi(simple compounding of 2 separate words), so you are now called 石星守太 (Ishihoshi Suta) > Suta = "Star" in Japanese pronunciation.

      Your uncle's family, who just lives beside you, also decides the "great rocks" and the "shimmering stars" are nice to use as a surname, but they registered under the pronunciation 石星(いしぼし Ishiboshi (with 星 undergoing the process of "Rendaku 連濁" in Japanese), therefore from then on, your uncle's family's name is considered different from your family's even though the characters are the same.

      Your first cousin's family, who also lives in the same village, also decides the "great rocks" and the "shimmering stars" suits them, but they registered under the Sino-Japanese Onyomi reading of "Rock" 「石」(しゃく "shaku") and the Sino-Japanese Onyomi reading of "Star" 「星」(しょう "shō"), becoming the 石星(しゃくじょうShakujō) family,  resulting in a different family lineage from then on.

      Your second cousin's family, who also lives in the same village, also decides the "great rocks" and the "shimmering stars" to be the most convenient naming convention, but due to their personal preferences, they chose the character 「岩」 (いわ "iwa") over the character 「石」 , therefore their family became the 岩星(いわほし Iwahoshi  ,  or could have chosen  いわぼし Iwaboshi , forms too) family, again is a different lineage under the government records.

      Your nephew's family, who also lives in the same village, does not like either the "great rocks" or the "shimmering stars" at all, so they decided to name themselves with the "small forest" that lies behind their dwelling, so they registered their family name as 小林(こばやし Kobayashi and thus became the Kobayashi family lineage from then onwards.

      Therefore, different families from different geographical areas could end up with the same newly created surnames,  while kinships within families from the same geographical area may end up with differently created new surnames.

      This was the state of affairs during that time.

      ◆◇◆◇◆◇◆◇◆◇◆◇◆◇◆◇◆◇◆◇◆◇◆◇◆◇◆◇◆◇

      Other than surnames, you can take a look at this very comprehensive webpage to see common Japanese first names (i.e. given names):

      http://www.geocities.jp/nekononamae_hitononamae/index.html

      (please click the second portion titled "人の名前" to choose according to the Japanese alphabetical order )   (>the first portion "猫の名前" are cat's names, not people's names, so don't click<)

      That's interesting haha....then what about great feudal lords like takeda shingen and tokugawa ieyasu? They lived 500 years ago......ok anyway, hope I'm not digressing too much from this forum here.

  • BanguIzai's Avatar
    7,563 posts since Mar '10
    •  

      Originally posted by Rock^Star:

      That's interesting haha....then what about great feudal lords like takeda shingen and tokugawa ieyasu? They lived 500 years ago......ok anyway, hope I'm not digressing too much from this forum here.

      Actually my head is going to burst now,  for 2 times I typed an almost complete post to reply to you on this, as I needed to keep on switching back and forth between Japanese typing system and English typing system due to mixed typing,  I lost my post 2 times !!  (because of pressing Alt + ` keystroke combinations or Alt + Shift keystroke combinations and Shift + Left keystroke combinations very frequently to switch back and forth between Japanese ⇔ English and  Parsing Rearrangement for the Kanjis,  I confusingly accidentally pressed Alt + Left keystroke which brought me back page to the previous page and everything was pooped !)

      So I hope you don't mind as I am getting a little bit impatient and the details below may be a little bit shortcutted, so if you have any queries on unclear portions, do reply them. And also please do let me know if I linked wrongly to any particular info, cos I opened too many windows to link them here, so it's rather confusing to me (i opened more than 10 windows of information).

      The main gist of the previous lost posts I wanted to say was (I put into point forms quickly):

      1.  Look at here:  HERE

      These are the old clan names of pre-Meiji era.  (Incomplete list compiled by helpful Wikipedian editors)

      2.  Look at here:  HERE

      I wanted to tell you, from the Kinwashi post you linked, it says

       

      History of Japanese Last Names

      Prior to the Meiji period (1868-1912), last names were rarely used except by the Samurais, noblemen, merchants and some artisans. The commoners which made up the vast majority of people in those times were referred to by their given name and the area from which they were from. During the Meiji period however, the government with endorsement from the emperor made it mandatory for everyone to select a family name using a list of preauthorized Kanji (Japanese characters).

       

      3.  Therefore, Tokugawa and Takeda also happen to be old clan names, not surnames.

      4.  I elaborated on the "looseness" of the pre-Meiji clan names and opposed to the "tightness" of the post-Meiji surnames, as for pre-Meiji clan names, the use of the genitive particle の no is necessary to link the clan name with the given name, so usually they are referred to as Tokugawa no Ieyasu   and   Takada no Shingen.   Modern text usually omit the no from noble and famous people for simplicity → 1) These famous people's clan names have evolved into modern surnames too, by those who were previously descended from these clans;  2) It confirms to the modern way of calling people by surname-given name.

      5.  Another one example of famous clan names that evolved into modern surname is the Fujiwara family clan name:  藤原

      6.  See HERE

      I elaborated on the arbitary nature of clan names, whereby a certain descendant clan can abandon the original clan and form new affiliation with other clans, thereby causing later people could be referred to any of the clan affiliation  (> the "looseness" of clan names)

      quote this sentence:

                戦国末期、松野氏は宇都宮氏を離れて佐竹氏に属していた。

          tells us, that during the Sengoku (戦国) period, the descendant Matsuno (松野) clansmen (SOURCE: click HERE) chose to separate from the Utsunomiya (宇都宮) clansmen (SOURCE: click HERE) and subsequently joined (pledged affiliation and thus worked together) with the Satake (佐竹) clan (SOURCE: click HERE).   Therefore, they can have 2 surnames.

      7.  Samurais, bushis, who chose not to be affiliated to any particular clan, usually do not have clan names (surnames).  They are usually referred to as 浪人s rōnin.

      8.  I also mentioned, that we have hot digressed from this forum at all, as all Japanese surnames stem from Chinese characters, and we are all sharing information on Chinese culture and Chinese influences in countries surrounding China, so we have enriched ourselves with fruitful discussions.

      9.  I proceeded on with discussions on Chinese idioms and proverbs, that have flowed to Japan and absorbed by the Japanese and naturalised.   I will extract them into the next post instead, so that in case this post is accidentally lost again.


       

      Edited by BanguIzai 24 Jul `11, 10:39PM
    •  

            Do you notice any familiarity with the below Japanese Idioms and Proverbs ?  biggrin.png

       

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      ◎                                             ◎◇◎◇◎◇◎◇◎◇◎◇◎◇◎
       
                              ◎◇◎◇◎◇◎◇◎◇◎◇◎◇◎◇◎◇◎◇◎◇◎◇◎◇◎◇◎

       

      (from Level 7 of Kanji Kentei 2007 paper :  http://www.kanken.or.jp/mondai/pdf/7m.pdf )
      ―「 Primary 4 level 」

      1.  良薬は口に苦し  (Ryōyaku wa kuchi ni nigashi)  (Section 1, Q20)

      2.  失敗は成功の本  (Shippai wa sēkō no moto)  (Section 11, Q20)

       

      ◎◇◎◇◎◇◎◇◎◇◎◇◎◇◎◇◎◇◎◇◎◇◎◇◎◇◎◇◎

       

      (from Level 6 of Kanji Kentei 2007 paper :  http://www.kanken.or.jp/mondai/pdf/6m.pdf )

      ―「 Primary 5 level 」

      3.  罪を憎んで人を憎まず  (Tsumi wo nikunde hito wo nikumazu)  (Section 1, Q20)
            << hehe, i think this may be more difficult >>

       

      ◎◇◎◇◎◇◎◇◎◇◎◇◎◇◎◇◎◇◎◇◎◇◎◇◎◇◎◇◎

       

      (from Level 5 of Kanji Kentei 2007 paper :  http://www.kanken.or.jp/mondai/pdf/5m.pdf )

      ―「 Primary 6 level 」

      4.  半信半疑  (Han shin han gi)  (Section 6, Q9)

       

      ◎◇◎◇◎◇◎◇◎◇◎◇◎◇◎◇◎◇◎◇◎◇◎◇◎◇◎◇◎

       

      (from Level 4 of Kanji Kentei 2007 paper :  http://www.kanken.or.jp/mondai/pdf/4m.pdf )

      ―「 Secondary 1-2 level 」

      5.  博学多才  (Haku gaku ta sai)  (Section 8, Q1)

      6.  信賞必罰  (Shin shō hitsu batsu)  (Section 8, Q2)

      7.  適者生存  (Teki sha sē zon)  (Section 8, Q4)

      8.  起承転結  (Ki shō ten ketsu)  (Section 8, Q5)

      9.  雲散霧消  (Un san mu shō)  (Section 8, Q7)

      10.  美辞麗句  (Bi ji rē ku)  (Section 8, Q8)

      11.  利害得失  (Ri gai toku shitsu)  (Section 8, Q9)

      12.  意志薄弱  (I shi haku jaku)  (Section 8, Q10)

       

      ◎◇◎◇◎◇◎◇◎◇◎◇◎◇◎◇◎◇◎◇◎◇◎◇◎◇◎◇◎

       

      (from Level 3 of Kanji Kentei 2007 paper :  http://www.kanken.or.jp/mondai/pdf/3m.pdf )

      ―「 Secondary 2-3 level 」

      13.  前人未到  (Zen jin mi tō)  (Section 8, Q1)

      14.  危機一髪  (Ki ki ip-patsu)  (Section 8, Q2)

      15.  三寒四温  (San kan shi on)  (Section 8, Q3)

      16.  生殺与奪  (Sē satsu yo datsu)  (Section 8, Q4)

      17.  一刀両断  (It-tō ryō dan)  (Section 8, Q5)

      18.  同工異曲  (Dō kō i kyoku)  (Section 8, Q7)

      19.  行雲流水  (Kō un ryū sui)  (Section 8, Q8)

       

      ◎◇◎◇◎◇◎◇◎◇◎◇◎◇◎◇◎◇◎◇◎◇◎◇◎◇◎◇◎

       

      (from Level Pre-2 of Kanji Kentei 2007 paper :  http://www.kanken.or.jp/mondai/pdf/j2m.pdf )

      ―「 Secondary 4 - JC 1 level 」

      20.  千載一遇  (Sen zai ichi gū)  (Section 8, Q1)

      21.  誇大妄想  (Ko dai mō sō)  (Section 8, Q2)

      22.  朝令暮改  (Chō rē bo kai)  (Section 8, Q3)

      23.  妙計奇策  (Myō kē ki saku)  (Section 8, Q4)

      24.  才色兼備  (Sai shoku ken bi)  (Section 8, Q5)

      25.  天衣無縫  (Ten i mu hō)  (Section 8, Q8)

      26.  悪戦苦闘  (Aku sen ku tō)  (Section 8, Q9)

      27.  主客転倒  (Shu kyaku ten tō)  (Section 8, Q10)

       

      ◎◇◎◇◎◇◎◇◎◇◎◇◎◇◎◇◎◇◎◇◎◇◎◇◎◇◎◇◎

       

      (from Level 2 of Kanji Kentei 2007 paper:  http://www.kanken.or.jp/mondai/pdf/2m.pdf )
      ―「 JC1-2 - University level  」

      28.  支離滅裂  (Shi ri metsu retsu)  (Section 4, Q3)

      29.  内疎外親  (Nai so gai shin)  (Section 4, Q7)

      30.  破邪顕正  (Ha ja ken shō)  (Section 4, Q9)

      31.  大胆不敵  (Dai tan fu teki)  (Section 4, Q10)

       

                               ◎◇◎◇◎◇◎◇◎◇◎◇◎◇◎◇◎◇◎◇◎◇◎◇◎◇◎◇◎
          ◎◇◎◇◎◇◎◇◎◇◎◇◎◇
      ◎                                             ◎◇◎◇◎◇◎◇◎◇◎◇◎◇◎
       
                              ◎◇◎◇◎◇◎◇◎◇◎◇◎◇◎◇◎◇◎◇◎◇◎◇◎◇◎◇◎


       

       

      Edited by BanguIzai 25 Jul `11, 3:19AM
  • Moderator
    Rock^Star's Avatar
    11,142 posts since Jul '05
    • Wah hahaha.....your posts are very enriching, simply amazing la. Never known that the japs have idioms so similar to ours prior to this. And so they actually did not have surnames in the past, just came about during the meiji era.

    • Just learned this term today 汽配, which means 汽车配件 (car accessories). My friend was saying 汽配, 汽配啊。。。。and I was like....huh? haha. Much to learn.

    • One simple question for everyone: How do we say something has solidified?

      Eg: 这杯橙汁已经 solidified 成冰了。

  • BanguIzai's Avatar
    7,563 posts since Mar '10
    • Originally posted by Rock^Star:

      Just learned this term today 汽配, which means 汽车配件 (car accessories). My friend was saying 汽配, 汽配啊。。。。and I was like....huh? haha. Much to learn.

      This should be Taiwanese people or China people saying.

    • Originally posted by Rock^Star:

      One simple question for everyone: How do we say something has solidified?

      Eg: 这杯橙汁已经 solidified 成冰了。

      I prefer to say the one syllable word 結。  Other than that, the bookish word is 凝結。  For other contexts, solidified could be 凝固。

      I.e.  這杯橙汁已經結成冰了。

    • Originally posted by Rock^Star:

      Wah hahaha.....your posts are very enriching, simply amazing la. Never known that the japs have idioms so similar to ours prior to this. And so they actually did not have surnames in the past, just came about during the meiji era.

      (  I just noticed something I left out earlier, and want to let you know, the above 27.  主客転倒  (Shu kyaku ten tō)  (Section 8, Q10) has another reading (Shu kaku ten tō), which is more accepted than (Shu kyaku ten tō). )

      ( If you have clicked the test papers themselves, you would have noticed that I left out other proverbs and idiom that originate more from Japan  eg. i left out idioms such as 得手勝手 E te kat-te  or  油断大敵 Yu dan tai teki /  i left out proverbs such as 喉元過ぎれば熱さを忘れる Noto moto sugireba atsusa wo wasureru  or  知らぬが仏 Shiranu ga hotoke )

  • Moderator
    Rock^Star's Avatar
    11,142 posts since Jul '05
    • Originally posted by BanguIzai:

      I prefer to say the one syllable word 結。  Other than that, the bookish word is 凝結。  For other contexts, solidified could be 凝固。

      I.e.  這杯橙汁已經結成冰了。

      “凝结”会很正规吗?

      啊,我好想念那些台湾综艺节目还有连戏剧。我现在正在阅读一本关于胡雪岩的书,有好多成语和谚语。。。。有时间再抽空登出来。

    • Ok, how do we say "size" in internet speak? Size of the flash disk, hard disk, movie etc.

      How do we say hard disk? haha. Got me stumped when I thought of it.

  • BanguIzai's Avatar
    7,563 posts since Mar '10
    • Originally posted by Rock^Star:

      “凝结”会很正规吗?

      啊,我好想念那些台湾综艺节目还有连戏剧。我现在正在阅读一本关于胡雪岩的书,有好多成语和谚语。。。。有时间再抽空登出来。

      ya, as usual, when I do my first replies, I do spontaneously. So that I can grade myself. Now, that you say, I went to check my dictionaries to take a look:

      《新華現代學生詞典》 (2002) says:

      • 【凝結】níng jié 由於遇冷或壓力增加,氣體變成液體或液體變成固體:水蒸氣遇冷凝結成水珠。

      《太平洋初級漢英雙解詞典》 (1990) says:

      • 【凝結】[ níngjié ] congeal; condense; coagulate 氣體變爲液體或液體變爲固體。●池面上凝結了一層薄薄的冰。

      Now that you ask, I dunno whether can use or not liao.  You give your view can?   For me is I can use, but I was made unsure by you now.

      To play safe, I further on checked my Japanese dictionaries, as this term was first coined by the Japanese and later on carried over into Chinese by the Chinese who studied in Japan.

      《精選日漢漢日詞典》(2000) says:

      • 【凝結】níngjié (動)凝結(ぎょうけつ)する,凝固(ぎょうこ)する。△水上凝結了一層冰 ⇒ 水面に薄い氷が張っている。

      《A New Dictionary Of Kanji Usage》(1995) says:

      • 【凝結】(ギョウケツ)  <Nv> coagulation, being curdled [+ formation]

      《Japanese IME》 (2008) says:

      • 【凝結】 こり困る。「水蒸気が凝結する,気持ちが凝結する。」

                            ♪♯♪♯♪♯♪♯♪♯♪♯♪♯♪♯♪♯♪♯♪♯♪♯♪♯♪♯♪♯♪♯♪♯♪♯♪♯♪

      聽起來你好像又飃囘到印尼了吧。不過你在印尼不是可以用Youtube上去看那些臺灣的綜藝節目和電視連續劇咩?

      儅你想登出來的時候,順便介紹一下胡雪岩是怎麽樣怎麽樣的一個作者,寫什麽樣類型的書,如果啱的話我可能也可以去看看。

       

      Edited by BanguIzai 27 Jul `11, 1:49AM
    • Originally posted by Rock^Star:

      Ok, how do we say "size" in internet speak? Size of the flash disk, hard disk, movie etc.

      How do we say hard disk? haha. Got me stumped when I thought of it.

      Normally I bring the actual English word into my Chinese usage just that I distort it along with other words:

      Size →  Sāi-Xí  (pronounced like 腮席)

      another distortion that I usually do are like when I call person's name Joyce, I call Jōi- .  (eg, Jōi-Xí 啊,Jōi-Xí 啊,有人在找你。)

      Otherwise, I say 大小 lor.  Or I say 這個 flash disk 的容(i still pronounce the old way "yóng" )量有 xxx GB.

      ※☆※☆※☆※☆※☆※☆※☆※☆※☆※☆※☆※☆

      Hard disk ah, can say 硬盤 or 硬碟 bah.

    •  

      Originally posted by Bangulzai:

       

       

            Do you notice any familiarity with the below Japanese Idioms and Proverbs ?  biggrin.png

       

                               ◎◇◎◇◎◇◎◇◎◇◎◇◎◇◎◇◎◇◎◇◎◇◎◇◎◇◎◇◎
          ◎◇◎◇◎◇◎◇◎◇◎◇◎◇
      ◎                                             ◎◇◎◇◎◇◎◇◎◇◎◇◎◇◎
       
                              ◎◇◎◇◎◇◎◇◎◇◎◇◎◇◎◇◎◇◎◇◎◇◎◇◎◇◎◇◎

       

      (from Level 7 of Kanji Kentei 2007 paper :  http://www.kanken.or.jp/mondai/pdf/7m.pdf )
      ―「 Primary 4 level 」

      1.  良薬は口に苦し  (Ryōyaku wa kuchi ni nigashi)  (Section 1, Q20)

      2.  失敗は成功の本  (Shippai wa sēkō no moto)  (Section 11, Q20)

       

      ◎◇◎◇◎◇◎◇◎◇◎◇◎◇◎◇◎◇◎◇◎◇◎◇◎◇◎◇◎

       

      (from Level 6 of Kanji Kentei 2007 paper :  http://www.kanken.or.jp/mondai/pdf/6m.pdf )

      ―「 Primary 5 level 」

      3.  罪を憎んで人を憎まず  (Tsumi wo nikunde hito wo nikumazu)  (Section 1, Q20)
            << hehe, i think this may be more difficult >>

       

      ◎◇◎◇◎◇◎◇◎◇◎◇◎◇◎◇◎◇◎◇◎◇◎◇◎◇◎◇◎

       

      (from Level 5 of Kanji Kentei 2007 paper :  http://www.kanken.or.jp/mondai/pdf/5m.pdf )

      ―「 Primary 6 level 」

      4.  半信半疑  (Han shin han gi)  (Section 6, Q9)

       

      ◎◇◎◇◎◇◎◇◎◇◎◇◎◇◎◇◎◇◎◇◎◇◎◇◎◇◎◇◎

       

      (from Level 4 of Kanji Kentei 2007 paper :  http://www.kanken.or.jp/mondai/pdf/4m.pdf )

      ―「 Secondary 1-2 level 」

      5.  博学多才  (Haku gaku ta sai)  (Section 8, Q1)

      6.  信賞必罰  (Shin shō hitsu batsu)  (Section 8, Q2)

      7.  適者生存  (Teki sha sē zon)  (Section 8, Q4)

      8.  起承転結  (Ki shō ten ketsu)  (Section 8, Q5)

      9.  雲散霧消  (Un san mu shō)  (Section 8, Q7)

      10.  美辞麗句  (Bi ji rē ku)  (Section 8, Q8)

      11.  利害得失  (Ri gai toku shitsu)  (Section 8, Q9)

      12.  意志薄弱  (I shi haku jaku)  (Section 8, Q10)

       

      ◎◇◎◇◎◇◎◇◎◇◎◇◎◇◎◇◎◇◎◇◎◇◎◇◎◇◎◇◎

       

      (from Level 3 of Kanji Kentei 2007 paper :  http://www.kanken.or.jp/mondai/pdf/3m.pdf )

      ―「 Secondary 2-3 level 」

      13.  前人未到  (Zen jin mi tō)  (Section 8, Q1)

      14.  危機一髪  (Ki ki ip-patsu)  (Section 8, Q2)

      15.  三寒四温  (San kan shi on)  (Section 8, Q3)

      16.  生殺与奪  (Sē satsu yo datsu)  (Section 8, Q4)

      17.  一刀両断  (It-tō ryō dan)  (Section 8, Q5)

      18.  同工異曲  (Dō kō i kyoku)  (Section 8, Q7)

      19.  行雲流水  (Kō un ryū sui)  (Section 8, Q8)

       

      ◎◇◎◇◎◇◎◇◎◇◎◇◎◇◎◇◎◇◎◇◎◇◎◇◎◇◎◇◎

       

      (from Level Pre-2 of Kanji Kentei 2007 paper :  http://www.kanken.or.jp/mondai/pdf/j2m.pdf )

      ―「 Secondary 4 - JC 1 level 」

      20.  千載一遇  (Sen zai ichi gū)  (Section 8, Q1)

      21.  誇大妄想  (Ko dai mō sō)  (Section 8, Q2)

      22.  朝令暮改  (Chō rē bo kai)  (Section 8, Q3)

      23.  妙計奇策  (Myō kē ki saku)  (Section 8, Q4)

      24.  才色兼備  (Sai shoku ken bi)  (Section 8, Q5)

      25.  天衣無縫  (Ten i mu hō)  (Section 8, Q8)

      26.  悪戦苦闘  (Aku sen ku tō)  (Section 8, Q9)

      27.  主客転倒  (Shu kyaku ten tō)  (Section 8, Q10)

       

      ◎◇◎◇◎◇◎◇◎◇◎◇◎◇◎◇◎◇◎◇◎◇◎◇◎◇◎◇◎

       

      (from Level 2 of Kanji Kentei 2007 paper:  http://www.kanken.or.jp/mondai/pdf/2m.pdf )
      ―「 JC1-2 - University level  」

       

      28.  支離滅裂  (Shi ri metsu retsu)  (Section 4, Q3)

      29.  内疎外親  (Nai so gai shin)  (Section 4, Q7)

      30.  破邪顕正  (Ha ja ken shō)  (Section 4, Q9)

      31.  大胆不敵  (Dai tan fu teki)  (Section 4, Q10)

       

                               ◎◇◎◇◎◇◎◇◎◇◎◇◎◇◎◇◎◇◎◇◎◇◎◇◎◇◎◇◎
          ◎◇◎◇◎◇◎◇◎◇◎◇◎◇
      ◎                                             ◎◇◎◇◎◇◎◇◎◇◎◇◎◇◎
       
                              ◎◇◎◇◎◇◎◇◎◇◎◇◎◇◎◇◎◇◎◇◎◇◎◇◎◇◎◇◎


       

       

       As per usual practice whenever possible, I shall provide some explanations to the words that I posted:

       

      1.  良薬は口に苦し = 良藥苦口利於病,(忠言逆耳利於行) (Bitter medicine that we loathe is necessary for good health, Harsh words that we loathe is necessary for good actions)
          ( notice the difference in the Japanese way of writing 
       and Chinese way of writing  )

      2.  失敗は成功の本 = 失敗乃是成功之母 (Success comes from endless of failure tries)

      3.  罪を憎んで人を憎まず = 惡其意,不惡其人  (Fault the matter, do not fault on the person)

      4.  半信半疑 = skeptical / with a grain of salt  (= Chinese usage)

      5.  博学多才 = encyclopaedic learnings  (= Chinese usage)

      6.  信賞必罰 = reward good conduct and punish evil doing  (= Chinese usage)

      7.  適者生存 = survival of the fittest  (= Chinese usage / both borrowed from the West)

      8.  起承転結 = course of events / development of storyline in Chinese poetry  (= Chinese usage)
          ( notice the difference in the Japanese way of writing 転 and Chinese way of writing  )

      9.  雲散霧消 = (dreams / aspirations) vanish into thin air  (= Chinese usage)

      10.  美辞麗句 = good words / beautified wordings / compliments  (= Chinese usage)

      11.  利害得失 = the advantages and disadvantages / the pluses and minuses  (= Chinese usage)

      12.  意志薄弱 = lack of will power  (= Chinese usage)

      13.  前人未到 = no one before who has achieved it  (= Chinese 前無古人, (~后無來者) )

      14.  危機一髪 = at a critical moment / in the very nick of time  (= Chinese 千鈞一髮)

      15.  三寒四温 = (a cycle of) three cold days followed by four warm ones  (≠ Chinese)

      16.  生殺与 = make or break some(one), some(thing) / control ruthlessly  (= Chinese usage)

      17.  一刀両断 = drastic  (≠ Chinese 一刀兩斷 "severe a relationship")
          ( notice the difference in the Japanese way of writing  and Chinese way of writing  )

      18.  同工異曲 = look different but it's the same method  (= Chinese usage)

      19.  行雲流水 = not fixated to issues / zen-like / a non-attachment to worldly life  (≠ Chinese)

      20.  千載一遇 = a golden opportunity / the chance of a lifetime  (= Chinese 千載難逢)

      21.  誇大妄想 = over-inflating of one's ego, dreams, goals  (= Chinese usage)

      22.  朝令暮改 = inconsistent / sudden shifts in policies  (= Chinese 朝令夕改)

      23.  妙計奇策 = fantastic ideas and witty tactics  (= Chinese usage)

      24.  才色兼備 = person who has both brains and looks  (= Chinese 才貌雙全)

      25.  天衣無縫 = flawlessness  (= Chinese usage)

      26.  悪戦苦闘 = a desperate struggle / a tough fight (against heavy odds)  (= Chinese 艱苦奮鬥)
          ( notice the difference in the Japanese way of writing  and Chinese way of writing  )

      27.  主客転倒 = putting the cart before the horse / the tail wagging the dog  (= Chinese 反客爲主  or  喧賓奪主)
          ( notice the difference in the Japanese way of writing  and Chinese way of writing  )

      28.  支離滅裂 = inconsistencies / incoherence  (= Chinese 支離破碎)

      29.  内疎外親 = superficially cordial but actually uninterested  (≠ Chinese)

      30.  破邪顕正 = defeat evil and restore righteouness  (≠ Chinese / Buddhist language)

      31.  大胆不敵 = fearless / dauntless / daredevil / bold  (= Chinese 無所畏懼)


        

      Edited by BanguIzai 27 Jul `11, 3:42AM
  • Moderator
    Rock^Star's Avatar
    11,142 posts since Jul '05
    • Originally posted by BanguIzai:

      ya, as usual, when I do my first replies, I do spontaneously. So that I can grade myself. Now, that you say, I went to check my dictionaries to take a look:

      《新華現代學生詞典》 (2002) says:

      • 【凝結】níng jié 由於遇冷或壓力增加,氣體變成液體或液體變成固體:水蒸氣遇冷凝結成水珠。

      《太平洋初級漢英雙解詞典》 (1990) says:

      • 【凝結】[ níngjié ] congeal; condense; coagulate 氣體變爲液體或液體變爲固體。●池面上凝結了一層薄薄的冰。

      Now that you ask, I dunno whether can use or not liao.  You give your view can?   For me is I can use, but I was made unsure by you now.

      To play safe, I further on checked my Japanese dictionaries, as this term was first coined by the Japanese and later on carried over into Chinese by the Chinese who studied in Japan.

      《精選日漢漢日詞典》(2000) says:

      • 【凝結】níngjié (動)凝結(ぎょうけつ)する,凝固(ぎょうこ)する。△水上凝結了一層冰 ⇒ 水面に薄い氷が張っている。

      《A New Dictionary Of Kanji Usage》(1995) says:

      • 【凝結】(ギョウケツ)  <Nv> coagulation, being curdled [+ formation]

      《Japanese IME》 (2008) says:

      • 【凝結】 こり困る。「水蒸気が凝結する,気持ちが凝結する。」

                            ♪♯♪♯♪♯♪♯♪♯♪♯♪♯♪♯♪♯♪♯♪♯♪♯♪♯♪♯♪♯♪♯♪♯♪♯♪♯♪

      聽起來你好像又飃囘到印尼了吧。不過你在印尼不是可以用Youtube上去看那些臺灣的綜藝節目和電視連續劇咩?

      儅你想登出來的時候,順便介紹一下胡雪岩是怎麽樣怎麽樣的一個作者,寫什麽樣類型的書,如果啱的話我可能也可以去看看。

       

      凝结和凝固我一向以来都以为是水结成冰,原来从水蒸汽变成水珠也可以啊。哈哈。照我看,两方面的运用都可以啦。

      对啊,你现在提起,我才想到原来youtube上可以观看。只可惜“爱”找不到。这个胡雪岩其实是一位末清年代的著名商人。他为人能言善道,远见卓识,是当时中国经济的一股推动力。这本书是说明他怎样使用三十六计经商,里面所包含的词汇,成语以及谚语多的是。

    • Originally posted by BanguIzai:

      Normally I bring the actual English word into my Chinese usage just that I distort it along with other words:

      Size →  Sāi-Xí  (pronounced like 腮席)

      another distortion that I usually do are like when I call person's name Joyce, I call Jōi- .  (eg, Jōi-Xí 啊,Jōi-Xí 啊,有人在找你。)

      Otherwise, I say 大小 lor.  Or I say 這個 flash disk 的容(i still pronounce the old way "yóng" )量有 xxx GB.

      ※☆※☆※☆※☆※☆※☆※☆※☆※☆※☆※☆※☆

      Hard disk ah, can say 硬盤 or 硬碟 bah.

      腮席 sounds cantonese lol. I'd prefer 大小. Yes, hard disk is 硬盤.....

    • Cam across this today...how do we say "focus all our energy" in 成语?

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