Home > Speaker's Corner

Cartoon of Mohammad creates International Row.

PRP
25 Feb 06, 20:42

Some moderate Muslims dare not to speak out because of the extremists.This is one of the problems aobut this issue.
Salman
25 Feb 06, 21:12

Terrorism is immoral, period.
The extremists will call Muslims who speaks out against terrorists who are fellow Muslims unislamic. Thats why Irshad Manji have to live in hiding all the time.

In the case of Atobe, he accuses me of broad brushing all Muslims because he has no answers to the extremism he defends. He tries to shut me up from debate.

The Quran in sura 2:256 says
Let there be no compulsion in religion: Truth stands out clear from Error

Yes indeed, truth will stand out from error. What is there to hide if you are indeed on the side of truth? Only liars will need to hide. The evil hates it when truth is revealed. They cannot stand transparency.
Thailand_Hero
25 Feb 06, 23:57

Originally posted by Salman:
Terrorism is immoral, period.
The extremists will call Muslims who speaks out against terrorists who are fellow Muslims unislamic. Thats why Irshad Manji have to live in hiding all the time.

In the case of Atobe, he accuses me of broad brushing all Muslims because he has no answers to the extremism he defends. He tries to shut me up from debate.

The Quran in sura 2:256 says
Let there be no compulsion in religion: Truth stands out clear from Error

Yes indeed, truth will stand out from error. What is there to hide if you are indeed on the side of truth? Only liars will need to hide. The evil hates it when truth is revealed. They cannot stand transparency.
yes let truth prevail.

extremist can only thrive on lies and decite and distorting a great religion
Atobe
27 Feb 06, 05:05

Originally posted by SilverPal:

Original Response by Atobe:
What experience and training do you have that will qualify you to make such a comment ?

How do you propose that ISLAM be reformed ?

Its Theology that forms the basis of ISLAM, reforming the Quran or the Hadith ?

Post by SilverPal:
By virture that our lives are constantly being threatened everytime the muslims are not happy about something. Can I practise my faith in a muslim country? Will another priest be killed if the danish drew another picture of the prophet?

Once the whole world starts to hate us, we must begin to ask ourselves why.
Should we allow a few militants destroy our faith in fellow Humans ?

Have faith in the Human Spirit, Trust in the fellowship of Humans, and the Great Divide between peoples can be overcome.

Even during the 1960s, when racial riots occurred in Malaysia and Singapore, there were those minority groups being protected by the kindness of those who dare to stand up against Evil.

Evil exist on both sides of the Great Divide, as much as there are evil militants amongst those whom we should fear, there are also the evil ones within our midst who stand to benefit from our constant fear and suspicion towards the "Other Side".
Response by Atobe:
From your very flippant reply, it merely suggest the shallow consideration that you have given to a very complex subject that has major implications to itself as to the billions of its faithful.

Post by SilverPal:
When the catholic church was removed from its political place, there were many implications to the millions of followers too. Today the catholic faith is still very strong.
Yes, so it should be - if you are referring to the persecution of the Catholic Church by the Singapore Government in the mid-1980s.

However, what about the moral values of the Government, Country, Society, Community, and the Citizens ?
Response by Atobe:
The Catholics have a unified organisation, with its very formal organisation structures in the Vatican.

Do the Muslims have the benefit of such a FORMAL and UNIFIED ENTITY ?

Can you put a "little effort" from your simplistic "no brainer, one-liner" type of RECKLESS and FLIPPANT thinking ?

Post by SilverPal:
You only hear about the ROMAN catholic church, lead by the pope. The orthodox catholics are lead by their own leader and have no formal connection to the roman catholic church. They have no obligation to listen to the pope.

There are a few other catholic bodies that have nothing to do with the roman and orthodox church. An example is the china catholic church.
Whatever the differences of the roman and orthodox churches, they are all organised with its own "Titular Head" - and with the Churches moving towards a common ground.

If you will look up the February 13, 2006 edition of Newsweek, you will be surprised with the changes taking place in China's Catholic Church.
Response by Atobe:
Garbage IN, will result in Garbage OUT.

The 2 Billions are divided into the main stream Catholics and Christians - with the Christians being "brached" into the main "groups" of Anglicanism, Baptism, Methodism, Protestants, and some other minor Christian Groups and older orthodox Christianity.

In each of these groups there exist a formal body that sits in the different centres of religious capital - with Catholics in the Vatican, Anglicanism in the Church of England, Methodist in the Methodist Council in the USA, and the others having their own Governing Body that guide their respective religious practices.

These groups are not allienated by sect, tribe, ethnicity, race, nor culture, traditions, politics, etc.

Can ISLAM and its Faithful Followers transcend the complexities of their religion that is intertwined into the many tribal, sectarian, ethnic, cultural, traditional, and political practices ?

Post by SilverPal:
Christianity is very diverse, more so than islam. Any yahoo can get a few friends to his house and strum the guitar to some popular christian songs and claim that he has started a new church.

There are Baptists, faith baptists, bible baptists, methodist baptists... that's just one string of denomination alone.

There are also those that do not brance from any major denominations, such as new creations and city harvest. They claim no ties to any other denominations. There are hundreds more in USA and europe.

Catholics are the most stringent and tightly managed, hence there are less catholic denominations.

The history of christianity is as complex, bloody and intertwined as islamic denominations. Can you imagine that every christian denomination claims to be the original and first church?
The History of Mankind is also as complex, bloody, and intertwined with competition, partnership and breakups between the various shades and diversities of political ideologies.

The question remains as to the location where Man had first appeared on earth.
Response by Atobe:
Can we believe in your confusing and contradicting statement ? .

If Religion is about LIFE and one conveniently forget about religious teachings when practicing POLITICS, is it any wonder that we have "no brainers" who believe in killing innocent LIVES for the sake of their POLITCS and WILL FORGET their religious teachings ? .

Did we listen to you blaming those extremists for being Muslims and committing Terrorist Acts ? .

Or did they follow your "no brainer" approach by separating Religion from Politics and commit their terrorist political acts ? . .

Post by SilverPal:
If religion is about tolerance and respect, then in politics, how come I see muslim countries practising an utter lack of tolerance and respect for other religions?

If religion is about the sancity of life, then a muslim country cannot go to war?

Even when politics and religion are put together, that did not stop 5 countries from attacking Isreal? That did not stop indonesia from calling singapore a red dot? That did not stop saddam from gassing the kurds? That did not help the polics in muslim countries to protect the american embassies that were destroyed?

So tell me now, does putting religion with politics help improve the behaviour of the govt? Where is the faith in politics then?
Have you confused the WEAKNESS of the "Religious" MAN to any WEAKNESS of The Religion ?

To reply to your last question, you should look at the moral values of a religious Man - in the Dalai Lama.

When the Dalai Lama was overthrown by the Communist Government of China during its invasion of Tibet, the Dalai Lama opted for a passive resistant towards the Communist Government of China.

With the takeover of Tibet, the Chinese Communist Government installed a child as the reincarnate "new Dalai Lama".

Was it not surprising that the 'younger' Dalai Lama - on maturing - decide to escape from Tibet , to search for the Elder Dalai Lama ?
Atobe
27 Feb 06, 06:01

Originally posted by Salman:
Terrorism is immoral, period.
The extremists will call Muslims who speaks out against terrorists who are fellow Muslims unislamic. Thats why Irshad Manji have to live in hiding all the time.
Do Terrorists have any morals to begin with - whatever period in Man's History that is being referred ?

Only a "no brainer" Terrorist can understand the characteristic of another "no brainer" Terrorist.

Is it not standard practice of all extremists - who will accuse his fellow mates who dare to speak out against them - as being "outcasts" of their "idiot-logy"?
Original post by Salman:
In the case of Atobe, he accuses me of broad brushing all Muslims because he has no answers to the extremism he defends. He tries to shut me up from debate.
Was it Atobe, or was it the Moderators making the attempt to shut down the huge carvenous cranium on top of your torso ?

Is Atobe the only person able to see your persistent sly effort in slandering the larger community of Muslims with the narrow views that you hold towards those few who have brought infamy to Islam and Muslims ?

Those few Militant Etremists have done sufficient damage to the religion without you having to pour oil onto an inferno that is currently raging throughout the world.

Are we not surprised by the many sly efforts that you have attempted to slander Islam and Muslims ?

Did you not paint a slanderous "militant" stroke against Islam and Muslims in general, regardless if they are Arab Militants or the innocent Muslims of Malaysia, Singapore, Indonesia, Brunei, and in many other South-east Asian Countries ?

How many of your posts have been locked up by the Moderators - who perhaps are having the same opinion as Atobe ?
The Quran in sura 2:256 says:
Let there be no compulsion in religion: Truth stands out clear from Error

Yes indeed, truth will stand out from error. What is there to hide if you are indeed on the side of truth? Only liars will need to hide. The evil hates it when truth is revealed. They cannot stand transparency.
Yes, "no brainer" liars - who depend on deceit and cunning, with articulate slyness to twist the honest posts of others, so as to suit his own slanderous efforts in attacking Islam and Muslims.

"Discrimination in Malaysia - Part 1 and Part 2"
- was these two threads began with a generous concern for Malaysia, or was it a mischevious attempt to denigrate our neighbor, who "happen" to be largely Muslims ?

"A True Story on the Lives of Saudi Women"
- was this a personal concern towards Saudi Women in particular, or a continuous attempt at "stamping down" on Islam and Muslims ?

"Muslims please help out"
- was this thread begun with an effort to understand Islam, or was this another attempt at deceit to cover your efforts in trampling the followers of this Religion ?

"The Treatment of Infidels in Saudi Arabia - a Time to Apo"
- is this not another attempt at using the honesty of others to suit your continuous efforts at slandering Islam and Muslims ?
PRP
28 Feb 06, 14:07

Even govts of Muslim countries don't support demo.Now demo have stopped.It is time for rational discussion.
Yi Peng
28 Feb 06, 15:27

It seems that these rioters want to intimidate others and shut others up from questioning or criticising Islam by all means possible.
This explains why they reacted so violently to a cartoon.
PRP
2 Mar 06, 11:26

Those demostrators are mob and so one can understand their behavior.

Now Muslims attacked other Muslims!So u see what the problem is.
Atobe
2 Mar 06, 16:59

Originally posted by PRP:
Those demostrators are mob and so one can understand their behavior.

Now Muslims attacked other Muslims!So u see what the problem is.
Those mobs were instigated into a fury by unseen hands that are stirring hatred and anger.

Muslims are attacking Muslims - not on religious issues, but stirred up historical baggage of tribal and sectarian rivalries.

When these hidden hands are traced to its source, we will easily find the radical and ambitious personalities using religion as a mask to hide their deeper political agenda.

The easiest way to the leadership post is to seize the pulpit, and stir the ancient hatred and rivalries, create instability and mayhem, so that ruthless methods can be applied to bring in a New Order.

Civilization on both sides of the Great Divide will have to awake to this new threat that is trying to bring hatred and mayhem on both sides of the Great Divide towards each other and within each community.

Instability can only breed insecurity, and this is the best ground for the terrorists to grow.
Yi Peng
3 Mar 06, 10:55

So the question now becomes, why are Muslims so easily allow manipulated into senseless violence and terrorism? What can Muslims do so that they will not allow others to use their religion to manipulate them?
Atobe
3 Mar 06, 11:09

Originally posted by Yi Peng:
So the question now becomes, why are Muslims so easily allow manipulated into senseless violence and terrorism? What can Muslims do so that they will not allow others to use their religion to manipulate them?
Your question has unfairly paint ALL MUSLIMS in a broad sweep.

Those whom you have seen in your small TV screen will form a very small percentage of the billions of faithful followers of the religion.

Did you see the whole Muslim population of Indonesia marching for hours past the US Embassy ?

Did you see the entire Muslim population of Pakistan doing the same ?

Or that in Malaysia and Brunei ?

Your question is best left to the Muslim communities to handle their own affairs, as any outside interference can only make them on the defensive.

If you have any ideas, why not write to your nearest mosque committee addressing your concern for their religion being hijacked by radical revolutionaries disguised as religious zealots.
Yi Peng
3 Mar 06, 11:17

Muslims at large do not get involve in violence of course but most terrorism in the world are committed by Muslims even though Muslims make up only a minority in the world. And it seems they do have a significant ground swell support. Surveys in the middle east and Pakistan showed that Osama is a popular figure there and will even win elections. This to me is madness that must not be ignored.
Atobe
3 Mar 06, 11:39

Originally posted by Yi Peng:
Muslims at large do not get involve in violence of course but most terrorism in the world are committed by Muslims even though Muslims make up only a minority in the world. And it seems they do have a significant ground swell support. Surveys in the middle east and Pakistan showed that Osama is a popular figure there and will even win elections. This to me is madness that must not be ignored.
You have again unnecessarily pour a heap of red paint on the green color of Islam and its followers.

Your statement would have been more accurate if it had been rephrased to read as such:

"the more prominent and shocking cases of terrorism in the world over the last decade have been committed by a few radicals claiming to being Muslims and doing their deed for their faith and their God "

Are Muslims a minority in the World ?

If you visit the referenced U.S. Centre of World Mission you will be surprised to note that Muslims form 19% of the World Religious Followers and growing, with Christians forming 32% (and falling ), Hinduism 13% (stable), No Religion 12% (falling), Chinese Folk Religions 6%, Budhism 6% (stable), and a whole host of other minor religions.

During the 1960s, the latin Revolutionary - Che Guaverra - was also a very popular figure who - like Osama bin Laden - had also resorted to terrorism and guerilla warfare to topple the corrupt dictatorships of Latin America.

He was purported to be a hero amongst the poor and oppressed people across the Latin American continent, and became a folklore, a legendary figure for all his militant exploits and the failure of the Government to track him.

However, was his popularity widespread throughout Latin America ?

There was also an equal or larger number of urban dwellers that disapprove of his terrorist actions and guerillas warfare that were disrupting law and order - which affected political stability and economic progress.

Resistance to revolutionaries - like Che Guavera and Osama Bin Laden - was met with violence and more terrorism, until the population grew tired and threatened by the situation that is spiralling out of control, and against their own moral and religious principles.

Surveys are similar to "listening to the pulse and heartbeat of for the moment that it is taken" - can it be representative of the entire population, or through a longer period of time ?
PRP
4 Mar 06, 11:31

For Muslims,they should study Koran well and follow the words of Muhammad.They there should be no problem.
Yi Peng
4 Mar 06, 12:12

Since Muslims make up only 19% of the world's population, they are indeed a minority. Che died long ago, he fought for communism, the new breed of terrorists are more vicious and they commit terror in the name of religion.
As for studying the Quran, its seems the more religious ones are the more fanatical ones. They seem to insist on linking their violence with Islam and there is no way that moderates can do anything about it. Keeping quiet is definitely not an option.
What do you suggest moderates do to stop them Atobe? Debate the Quran with them?
Thailand_Hero
4 Mar 06, 20:55

Well if a man wants to become a terrorist...no one can stop him...

but terrorism generates worldwide hatred. The more people gets killed...the worse the hatred.

Finally the terrorist's family gets terrorized...his wife gets raped by invading troops and get pregnant with babies by foreigners...his kids get beaten in the streets...and wheres daddy??? in heaven with his virgins...

if the whole world stand up against terrorism together....and terrorize the terrorist...

thats the end of terrorism.
Yi Peng
5 Mar 06, 00:36

We should kill the terrorists in any way we can but not rape his wife because we don't want to be like them. Perhaps by killing them, we are doing them a favour for exchanging their ugly wife for many virgins. They will be eternally grateful to us.
Atobe
5 Mar 06, 14:06

Originally posted by Yi Peng:
Since Muslims make up only 19% of the world's population, they are indeed a minority.
Yes, a SIGNIFICANT minority, considering that they are only second in percentage to the Christians.

Che died long ago, he fought for communism, the new breed of terrorists are more vicious and they commit terror in the name of religion.
"Terrorists" remain as "terrorists" regardless of the colors that they hide their cause.

In his own time, Che Guavera was also revered by the poor, the oppressed, the politically disenfranchised, the disillusioned in the community, society and nations that Che Guavera is known - as much as Osama is being revered by those in his own community, society, and nations that is familiar with his works and reputations.

As for studying the Quran, its seems the more religious ones are the more fanatical ones. They seem to insist on linking their violence with Islam and there is no way that moderates can do anything about it. Keeping quiet is definitely not an option.
Can religious people - who are supposed to be enlightened - be as fanatic as those who prefer to view the world with a narrow view ?

You continue to link two disparate groups towards each other, in a continuous attempt to disparage an entire group by the action of a minority few.

Those who insist of linking their violent methods with Islam are mere opportunist politicians, using the "religious vehicle " as a convenient form to propel their own politics with some legitimacy.

Can the moderates - who are unarmed, disparate, and not as well funded - compete with the radicals - who are more driven, more focus in their effort, better organised and funded, and better armed ?

What do you suggest moderates do to stop them Atobe? Debate the Quran with them?
Can a non-Muslim succeed in conducting any sensible debate using the Quran ?

If you had followed this thread, my proposal was written in a previous post.
Atobe
5 Mar 06, 14:12

Originally posted by Yi Peng:
We should kill the terrorists in any way we can but not rape his wife because we don't want to be like them. Perhaps by killing them, we are doing them a favour for exchanging their ugly wife for many virgins. They will be eternally grateful to us.
Kill one terrorist, and you will make a martyr out of one to give birth to another ten more terrorists.

The Israeli used brutality to hit back at the Palestinians - using the principle of "an eye for an eye" - and the battle between Iraeli and Palestinian societies continue to rage for the last FIFTY YEARS.

If you do not want to be like them, why kill them ?

Have you no thought for the sacrifices made by the "ugly wife " ?

What about those "hapless virgins" who have to sacrifice themselves to the lust and crudity of those "terrorists " ? Have you no thought for them too ?

Will the larger Palestinian community not be eternally grateful to the World Community if justice, fair play, security, progress, employment, education, wealth and progress can be brought to this part of the World ?
Thailand_Hero
5 Mar 06, 18:49

Originally posted by Atobe:
Kill one terrorist, and you will make a martyr out of one to give birth to another ten more terrorists.

The Israeli used brutality to hit back at the Palestinians - using the principle of "an eye for an eye" - and the battle between Iraeli and Palestinian societies continue to rage for the last FIFTY YEARS.

If you do not want to be like them, why kill them ?

Have you no thought for the sacrifices made by the "ugly wife " ?

What about those "hapless virgins" who have to sacrifice themselves to the lust and crudity of those "terrorists " ? Have you no thought for them too ?

Will the larger Palestinian community not be eternally grateful to the World Community if justice, fair play, security, progress, employment, education, wealth and progress can be brought to this part of the World ?

I hope that you're wrong about killing one will breed 10 more...

If thats the only possibility...this can only lead to extermination. Of every man and woman and child who is a potential terrorist.

War is not about dying for your country. Its about making your enemy die for his.
Yi Peng
5 Mar 06, 23:01

I don't believe in this kill one breed ten theory one bit.
The Israelis did not go all out to kill the terrorists, they try to make peace with them, that's why these terrorists still exists. That the mistake of the Jews.
We are not the people who give the heaven virgins to those crude terrorists, their god did. So you can blame their god for cruelty and prostitution instead. Anyway I don't think god will reward terrorists with virgins. These terrorists are just lusty fools who believe in the lies of their leaders.
Thailand_Hero
6 Mar 06, 00:59

Life on this earth is temporary.

i will spit on them when i go heaven and see them in hell.
Atobe
6 Mar 06, 02:21

Originally posted by Yi Peng:
I don't believe in this kill one breed ten theory one bit.
The Israelis did not go all out to kill the terrorists, they try to make peace with them, that's why these terrorists still exists. That the mistake of the Jews.
Who are the terrorists that you are referring to ?

Did the Israelis try to make peace with Hamas, or the Hezbollahs ?

With the years of experience that the Israelis had in dealing with terrorism in the Middle East, can your position be better than the Israelis ?

In a report on "War on Terrorism - How to make a martyr ? "

The following observation was made by Israel's defence minister, Benjamin Ben-Eliezer also wondered what motivates suicide bombers.

"The military actions kindle the frustration, hatred and despair and are the incubator for the terror to come. The religious and political environment immediately exploits this and dispatches the new suicide bombers and the pattern is repeated." Vulnerable young girls are easy pickings. "The environment exploits fragile personalities and gets them swept up in a current."

We are not the people who give the heaven virgins to those crude terrorists, their god did. So you can blame their god for cruelty and prostitution instead. Anyway I don't think god will reward terrorists with virgins. These terrorists are just lusty fools who believe in the lies of their leaders.
Who is their God, that you are referring to ?

What additional nonsense can come forth from you - after your statement concerning "their god for cruelty and prostitution instead. "

Are you not contradicting yourself with all these nonsensical statements ?

First, you blame their god for cruelty and prostitutions, and secondly you "don't think god will reward terrorists with virgins ?

Are you Salman re-incarnate in the purposeful manner at libelling the religion that you are posting ?

Is it any co-incidence that Salman disappeared about the same time that Yi Peng registered and began posting ?
Yi Peng
6 Mar 06, 08:53

It looks like this Atobe is an apologist for terrorists. First he discourage killing of terrorists. He somehow justify their actions and now he tries to accuse those who kill terrorists of terrorism. It is very clear where his sympathies are.
I am very sure he is a Muslim extremist in disguise as a rational peace loving person who has a heart for poor people.
And who is Salman? I'm Chinese, not Indian.
Thailand_Hero
6 Mar 06, 09:55

Terrorist destroys world peace. They tarnish the name of a great religion.

In Singapore, if a man stands by and watch a woman getting raped and does nothing to help. He would be considered an accessory to the crime by the court of law.

If anyone knows of terrorist activities and do not report them and thus leading to deaths of innocent lives, they are also considered accessories to that crime. This applies to both muslims and non muslims.

In our society, there must be no room for sympathisers for terrorism. Terrorist must be hunted down and hung. They must be destroyed where found. Singapore is a small country. A single terrorist attack can destroy everything that our forefathers have set out to create.

The law must create a death penalty for anyone found guilty of terrorism.