Cartoon of Mohammad creates International Row.
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Whatever the US did following 9/11 seemed more like a knee-jerk reaction than a long-term solution.Originally posted by oxford mushroom:Heard of 9-11?
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Yes, we have all heard of 911.Originally posted by oxford mushroom:Heard of 9-11?
Do you know why Osama dare to attack USA? -
Originally posted by SilverPal:
If you read my suggestion carefully, I suggest being hardline only to hardliners. The majority of Muslims who are peaceful can carry on their lives making money and babies w/o fear.
Salman, do you think that such hardlining stance against muslims will blow up in the faces of the relevant govts too? As it is, even with pacifist mentality by the west, the muslims are already adopting a "us against the world" and victim mentality. Don't you think that taking such harsh actions against those same muslims that defy all logic will make them even more hardlining? Won't their clerics tell them that the west is really against them by the actions taken by the west?
You have to bite the bullet somehow. It may turn worst up front but over time, people will understand that only the crooks gets punished for the good of society as a whole.
But if you try to appease, you actually embolden these fanatics like what happened in Europe and they are now demanding a whole foot. -
Your suggestion makes sense but somehow I have a feeling those extreme muslims will turn it around and claim that christians are persecuting muslims again.Originally posted by Salman:If you read my suggestion carefully, I suggest being hardline only to hardliners. The majority of Muslims who are peaceful can carry on their lives making money and babies w/o fear.
You have to bite the bullet somehow. It may turn worst up front but over time, people will understand that only the crooks gets punished for the good of society as a whole.
But if you try to appease, you actually embolden these fanatics like what happened in Europe and they are now demanding a whole foot.
In the long run, as you said, things will get better, but I fear the initial impact. -
I say go for broke. Go for an information war. Bring up the plight of Christians living in Muslim lands for open comparison and demand accountability for persecution. Bring Muslim behaviors up for debate in this small world. Play it up on all the satellites and the airwaves. Take advantage of modern communications. This is what the fanatics fear most.
I will bet you that these fanatics will be under pressure and will surely back down once their lies are exposed so openly. They have no where to run.
Did you notice how Atobe needs to play moderate on this forum? Zulfikar had to pretend to be moderate too in front of non Muslims. Even Arafat and Hamas needs to pretend to be moderate under western pressure. You getting the idea now? -
Not really. The muslims, moderates and otherwise, will do what they always do; they will brush it off as a western propaganda attack, call for more killings of the infidels who malign their faith.Originally posted by Salman:I say go for broke. Go for an information war. Bring up the plight of Christians living in Muslim lands for open comparison and demand accountability for persecution. Bring Muslim behaviors up for debate in this small world. Play it up on all the satellites and the airwaves. Take advantage of modern communications. This is what the fanatics fear most.
I will bet you that these fanatics will be under pressure and will surely back down once their lies are exposed so openly. They have no where to run.
Did you notice how Atobe needs to play moderate on this forum? Zulfikar had to pretend to be moderate too in front of non Muslims. Even Arafat and Hamas needs to pretend to be moderate under western pressure. You getting the idea now?
Once again, american embassies will get destroyed, another catholic priest will get killed and in indonesia, chinese girls will get raped again.
I have tried talking to moderate and laid back muslims about the terrorism and misrepresentation of their religion by a few evil men. They are so ingrained into their way of thinking that, they refuse to listen to any logic and reason. They brush the issue off as christians(ie me) attacking their faith.
I attended an interfaith dialogue between a catholic priest and a muslim cleric in singapore. Both clergymen were asked the same question: what role does religion play in politics?
The priest replied, "Religion and politics do not mix. Politics is ruled by the mind. There are times when deception is used. Deception has no place in our hearts. Religion is ruled by our hearts. We believe that God is watching over us and He performs miracles. We cannot explain these miracles, but we know its from God."
The reply from the cleric, "Politics is about governing our lives. Every aspects of our lives. What to do, what not to do. Religion is the same thing. It tells you what to do, what not to do. Both have rules and laws. Both govern every aspect of our lives. Hence, politics and religion is interwined and cannot be separated."
I was shocked at the sutle meaning from the cleric. The catholic priest believed that mixing politics and religion (from once upon a time in the catholic world) was a bad idea. But the cleric believed that politics without religion is a bad idea!
After that time, I really believed that the muslims want to convert all free countries into muslim countries. -
Originally posted by SilverPal:
Nope, not if you do it right.
Not really. The muslims, moderates and otherwise, will do what they always do; they will brush it off as a western propaganda attack, call for more killings of the infidels who malign their faith.
Thats why I say, you need to go for broke and have open debate.
Truth will stand out from error and natural morality will play out.
When you play it that way, the moderates and fence sitters, even semi extremists will take sides against the extermists.
If that happens, the islamic govts will lose legitimacy in all this.
Once again, american embassies will get destroyed, another catholic priest will get killed and in indonesia, chinese girls will get raped again.
Not only that, when push comes to shove, this will actually weaken extremists, if you know what I mean.
Thats because you didn't do it right. You gotta learn to do it right. Use their teachings and challenge them.
I have tried talking to moderate and laid back muslims about the terrorism and misrepresentation of their religion by a few evil men. They are so ingrained into their way of thinking that, they refuse to listen to any logic and reason. They brush the issue off as christians(ie me) attacking their faith.
You need to know how to expose them, peel away his subtleness and corner him. He will either have to ignore your challenge, crack at you or rethink his position.
I attended an interfaith dialogue between a catholic priest and a muslim cleric in singapore. Both clergymen were asked the same question: what role does religion play in politics?
The priest replied, "Religion and politics do not mix. Politics is ruled by the mind. There are times when deception is used. Deception has no place in our hearts. Religion is ruled by our hearts. We believe that God is watching over us and He performs miracles. We cannot explain these miracles, but we know its from God."
The reply from the cleric, "Politics is about governing our lives. Every aspects of our lives. What to do, what not to do. Religion is the same thing. It tells you what to do, what not to do. Both have rules and laws. Both govern every aspect of our lives. Hence, politics and religion is interwined and cannot be separated."
I was shocked at the sutle meaning from the cleric. The catholic priest believed that mixing politics and religion (from once upon a time in the catholic world) was a bad idea. But the cleric believed that politics without religion is a bad idea!
After that time, I really believed that the muslims want to convert all free countries into muslim countries.
If he avoids answering or cracks, he loses moral ground and legitimacy in public. -
No peace and security without seperation of church and state.
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I think this topic may reach like....to 80++ he he...
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If these fanatics don't know how to seperate religion and state, their teachings will set Muslims up against non Muslims all over the world by default.Originally posted by LazerLordz:No peace and security without seperation of church and state.
If they are the majority, they will end up forcing minorities to follow islamic laws and if they are minority, they will want to split the country. Then there will be no religion of peace but one of violence and oppression.
This is a very dangerous teaching. -
I do not have your experience at cornering and weeding out what i want from people.Originally posted by Salman:If these fanatics don't know how to seperate religion and state, their teachings will set Muslims up against non Muslims all over the world by default.
If they are the majority, they will end up forcing minorities to follow islamic laws and if they are minority, they will want to split the country. Then there will be no religion of peace but one of violence and oppression.
This is a very dangerous teaching.
Sadly, muslims are still going to continue this culture of ignorance and hatred for many more generations. Notice how proton has disappeared, conveniently refusing to answer all questions thrown at him. -
why can't they live in peace with the world?
indonesia - attack ethic chinese
thailand - kill monks and bomb churches
USA - terrorism
london - subway bomb
middleeast - war/ ethinic cleansing/baath party/iran nuclear race...barbaric acts of executions
the list can go on forever...
point is...why do they always wanna isolate? fight to seperate from mainstate...then once they are isolated...they start bitching bout how poor they are and no money to run their governement(hamas in palestine).
We're living in the 21st century now. There are so many modern muslims like those in our home country who are so peace loving and productive. I think its time for these extremist to wake up to the new world that they can't change the world...but they can change themselves. -
They believe that they will only change if there is a new islamic world order in place...Originally posted by Thailand_Hero:why can't they live in peace with the world?
indonesia - attack ethic chinese
thailand - kill monks and bomb churches
USA - terrorism
london - subway bomb
middleeast - war/ ethinic cleansing/baath party/iran nuclear race...barbaric acts of executions
the list can go on forever...
point is...why do they always wanna isolate? fight to seperate from mainstate...then once they are isolated...they start bitching bout how poor they are and no money to run their governement(hamas in palestine).
We're living in the 21st century now. There are so many modern muslims like those in our home country who are so peace loving and productive. I think its time for these extremist to wake up to the new world that they can't change the world...but they can change themselves. -
Religious fanatics
For all religions,they contain some elements of superstition.So there are religious fanatics.For fanatics,you know how they behave. -
there needs to be a reformation just as the Catholics had a reformation back a few centuries ago.Originally posted by SilverPal:They believe that they will only change if there is a new islamic world order in place...
This idea of reformation of islam has been much talked about but to no effect.
In the meantime, we need to fight and kill those fanatics and expose their evil ideology. -
Totally agree. The Catholics did a very sensible thing when they separated politics and religion. The muslims still do not realise that politics cannot mix with religion.Originally posted by Salman:there needs to be a reformation just as the Catholics had a reformation back a few centuries ago.
This idea of reformation of islam has been much talked about but to no effect.
In the meantime, we need to fight and kill those fanatics and expose their evil ideology.
I wonder how many more people have to die before the muslims stop deluding themselves. -
who would dare to reform when any comment would draw a death warrant ala rushdie?Originally posted by Salman:there needs to be a reformation just as the Catholics had a reformation back a few centuries ago.
This idea of reformation of islam has been much talked about but to no effect.
In the meantime, we need to fight and kill those fanatics and expose their evil ideology.
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Originally posted by Salman:
Is it surprising that it takes a NON-Muslim to suggest that REFORMATION should be made to ISLAM in which he has no interest other then to safeguard his own personal security against fanatics - of whom he should identity himself with ?
there needs to be a reformation just as the Catholics had a reformation back a few centuries ago.
This idea of reformation of islam has been much talked about but to no effect.
In the meantime, we need to fight and kill those fanatics and expose their evil ideology.
Fundamentalism exist in every religion, and it stems from INTOLERANCE towards any form of re-interpretation of the basic religious tenets, principles, and ideologies that form the basis of the religion.
If we question the fundamentals of a religion, it will require - for any thinking person to demand - also the answers to the necessity and relevance of Religion itself ?
If the existence of religion is necessary, should it be allowed such high profile and importance in any society, to the extent that it should threaten World stability and security ?
Unfortunately, REFORMATION is simpler said then done, and what is the point of saying the obvious without even thinking of the complexities involved when a religion is also intertwined with cultural and traditional practices - with each being peculiar to tribes, ethnicity, race, country and region.
Islam - like the other great religions from Asia, such as Budhism, Taoism, Judaism, Hinduism, Jaanism, Sikhism, Shintoism - are not as formal in its structure of an overseeing or global authority such as Catholics, Anglicans, Methodist, Baptist, Protestants.
Can one expect any one region to exercise leadership that is accepted by the other practitioners of the Faith ?
Can one separate religion from State Affairs, when some religion insist that Religion is LIFE in itself, and require the Faithful to live the Religious Principles in any and every possible way ?
If Religion is LIFE, and Politics is also about LIFE - most Religious Leaders will insist to ask if it is not correct that one should govern the other in order to achieve the MORAL BALANCE that a Religion expects ? -
heard nst was reported to the stupid malaysian police for publising a minor message only cartoon abt the prophet..
the muslim are so intolerant....like ger one cannot take heavy things -
Like the chinese saying, those not personally involved in the issue can see the clearest. When muslims and those targetted by terrorism get emotional, they tend to be less rational. Those on the outside can give objective suggestions and logical response.Originally posted by Atobe:Is it surprising that it takes a NON-Muslim to suggest that REFORMATION should be made to ISLAM in which he has no interest other then to safeguard his own personal security against fanatics - of whom he should identity himself with ?Fundamentalism exist in every religion, and it stems from INTOLERANCE towards any form of re-interpretation of the basic religious tenets, principles, and ideologies that form the basis of the religion.
I'm glad you can clerly identify and vocalise the cause of fundamentalism. Do you think there is muslim fundamentalists bringing a bad name to islam?If we question the fundamentals of a religion, it will require - for any thinking person to demand - also the answers to the necessity and relevance of Religion itself ?
The necessity and relevance of religion to life, this answer is roughly the same with few negligible variations for all major religions.If the existence of religion is necessary, should it be allowed such high profile and importance in any society, to the extent that it should threaten World stability and security ?
To me, religion is necessassary. But many have lived without religion, invented their own, and some even believe in many religions concurrently! As important and necessassary religion is, there is never enough reason to take another human life. I believe in the sanctity of life.Unfortunately, REFORMATION is simpler said then done, and what is the point of saying the obvious without even thinking of the complexities involved when a religion is also intertwined with cultural and traditional practices - with each being peculiar to tribes, ethnicity, race, country and region.
All major religions are very intertwined with tradition, culture and life itself. Buddism and taoism is very integrated with chinese lifestyle and folklore. Christianity is also very integral in the culture, history and even language of the westerners.
That didn't stop them from separating religion from politics.Islam - like the other great religions from Asia, such as Budhism, Taoism, Judaism, Hinduism, Jaanism, Sikhism, Shintoism - are not as formal in its structure of an overseeing or global authority such as Catholics, Anglicans, Methodist, Baptist, Protestants.
Perhaps it is time for clerics and mullahs to provide an avenue for their followers to clarify certain confusing aspects of their religion. Also, there are many parts of islam that has been misintepreted and exploited by certain terrorists. Responsible and God loving clerics and mullahs should try to clarify those points.
Clerics and mullahs, like priests, monks and the Pope are not only religious leaders, but also public figures. Their followers look to them for leadership and guidance. They should condemn any atrocities, crimes and terrorist acts that their follow indulge in. Not just keep quiet and be happy about it.Can one expect any one region to exercise leadership that is accepted by the other practitioners of the Faith ?
They can come to agreement on various things (things other than who is God of course). Catholic leaders and Buddist leaders have agreed to mutual respect and tolerance even though the teaching of each religion is a violation of the other's. Christian and Catholic leader have also learnt to coexist even though their beliefs are in direct conflict.Can one separate religion from State Affairs, when some religion insist that Religion is LIFE in itself, and require the Faithful to live the Religious Principles in any and every possible way ?
The catholics did it, why can't you?If Religion is LIFE, and Politics is also about LIFE - most Religious Leaders will insist to ask if it is not correct that one should govern the other in order to achieve the MORAL BALANCE that a Religion expects ?
You think the cardinals and archbishops were happy when their power was taken from them when the church was separated from politics? Did you not wonder how the priests handled the separation since they too believed that religion is also life and to remove religion from politics would be illogical?
All those questions, doubts and social problems have been confronted by catholics, taoists and buddists before. You're not the first one, you won't be the last.
Its time that muslim leaders start to study the feasibility of reforms. -
Originally posted by Atobe:
But fundamentalism in other religions don't pose a threat to the world like Muslims do today. Thats why there is a need for reformasi.
Is it surprising that it takes a NON-Muslim to suggest that REFORMATION should be made to ISLAM in which he has no interest other then to safeguard his own personal security against fanatics - of whom he should identity himself with ?
Fundamentalism exist in every religion, and it stems from INTOLERANCE towards any form of re-interpretation of the basic religious tenets, principles, and ideologies that form the basis of the religion.
Why not? Let it be a time for education and maturing for all.
If we question the fundamentals of a religion, it will require - for any thinking person to demand - also the answers to the necessity and relevance of Religion itself ?
Lets take opportunity to do that. Its good time.
Lets start thinking through the complexities then, just as the Catholics have done. If the Catholics can do it, why not Muslims?
If the existence of religion is necessary, should it be allowed such high profile and importance in any society, to the extent that it should threaten World stability and security ?
Unfortunately, REFORMATION is simpler said then done, and what is the point of saying the obvious without even thinking of the complexities involved when a religion is also intertwined with cultural and traditional practices - with each being peculiar to tribes, ethnicity, race, country and region.
Rubbish! There are 2 billion Christians and they come in thousands of sects.
Islam - like the other great religions from Asia, such as Budhism, Taoism, Judaism, Hinduism, Jaanism, Sikhism, Shintoism - are not as formal in its structure of an overseeing or global authority such as Catholics, Anglicans, Methodist, Baptist, Protestants.
Are you saying it can never be done in Islam? You wanna give up w/o even tryin?
Lets start with you my friend, you and your friends.
Can one expect any one region to exercise leadership that is accepted by the other practitioners of the Faith ?
You remember the Mike Jackson song 'Man in the miror'? Nanananananana.............
BTW, I read somehwere that Jackson became a Muslim.
Religion is life too for all other religions.
Can one separate religion from State Affairs, when some religion insist that Religion is LIFE in itself, and require the Faithful to live the Religious Principles in any and every possible way ?
If Religion is LIFE, and Politics is also about LIFE - most Religious Leaders will insist to ask if it is not correct that one should govern the other in order to achieve the MORAL BALANCE that a Religion expects ?
But they don't get involved in running the state.
So your definition and understanding of life needs to be reviewed in this reformation process. -
I'm glad you can clerly identify and vocalise the cause of fundamentalism. Do you think there is muslim fundamentalists bringing a bad name to islam?Originally posted by SilverPal:
Originally posted by Atobe:
Is it surprising that it takes a NON-Muslim to suggest that REFORMATION should be made to ISLAM in which he has no interest other then to safeguard his own personal security against fanatics - of whom he should identity himself with ?[/quote]
Like the chinese saying, those not personally involved in the issue can see the clearest. When muslims and those targetted by terrorism get emotional, they tend to be less rational. Those on the outside can give objective suggestions and logical response.Response by Atobe:
Should one who knows nothing about the complexities of Theology of a Religion be allowed to participate in the REFORMATION or comment on the Religion ?
Can one imagine a Budhist helping a Catholic to reform Catholicism ?Fundamentalism exist in every religion, and it stems from INTOLERANCE towards any form of re-interpretation of the basic religious tenets, principles, and ideologies that form the basis of the religion.
Fundamentalism takes different forms - the Passive and the Reactive.
Passive FUNDAMENTALISM does not impose itself on anyone, compared to the REACTIVE FUNDAMENTALISM.
In its basic form - FUNDAMENTALISM - is about the return of a Religion (any religion) to its foundation, its roots, its beginnings, it original form - and is an expression of concern towards the corruption of the Religion by forces that is pulling the Religion to a new form.
This is similar to Mao Tse Tung's own fundamentalist revival to the purity of the Communist Struggle when he launched the Cultural Revolution to imbue the Precepts of the Communist Struggle.
Religious Fundamentalism is a battle of forces within the religion as practised by those Passive Fundamentalists; and a battle conducted by Reactive Fundamentalists towards external corrupting influences on its Religion.
The necessity and relevance of religion to life, this answer is roughly the same with few negligible variations for all major religions.If we question the fundamentals of a religion, it will require - for any thinking person to demand - also the answers to the necessity and relevance of Religion itself ?Response by Atobe:To me, religion is necessassary. But many have lived without religion, invented their own, and some even believe in many religions concurrently! As important and necessassary religion is, there is never enough reason to take another human life. I believe in the sanctity of life.
Unfortunately, different religion approach this subject in different forms, and an aethiest will differ in his opinions from an agnostic, and this subject is totally blasphemious to some other more religious thinkers.If the existence of religion is necessary, should it be allowed such high profile and importance in any society, to the extent that it should threaten World stability and security ?
Response by Atobe:
Unfortunately, others - who are more simplistic and practical in their mental faculties - will differ from your position taken.
All major religions are very intertwined with tradition, culture and life itself. Buddism and taoism is very integrated with chinese lifestyle and folklore. Christianity is also very integral in the culture, history and even language of the westerners.Unfortunately, REFORMATION is simpler said then done, and what is the point of saying the obvious without even thinking of the complexities involved when a religion is also intertwined with cultural and traditional practices - with each being peculiar to tribes, ethnicity, race, country and region.
That didn't stop them from separating religion from politics.Response by Atobe:Perhaps it is time for clerics and mullahs to provide an avenue for their followers to clarify certain confusing aspects of their religion. Also, there are many parts of islam that has been misintepreted and exploited by certain terrorists. Responsible and God loving clerics and mullahs should try to clarify those points.
While certain religions that you have mentioned allow its followers to have the flexibility to separate Religion from Politics, it merely suggest that the practitioners of those Faiths have been able to "turn a blind eye" when "offending their own Religion" in the course of making a "Political Act"
Some other Religions will DEMAND that the Faithful Belivers of their Faith MUST FOLLOW THE RELIGIOUS TEACHINGS IN ITS ENTIRETY - with NO EXCEPTIONS.Islam - like the other great religions from Asia, such as Budhism, Taoism, Judaism, Hinduism, Jaanism, Sikhism, Shintoism - are not as formal in its structure of an overseeing or global authority such as Catholics, Anglicans, Methodist, Baptist, Protestants.
Clerics and mullahs, like priests, monks and the Pope are not only religious leaders, but also public figures. Their followers look to them for leadership and guidance. They should condemn any atrocities, crimes and terrorist acts that their follow indulge in. Not just keep quiet and be happy about it.
Response by Atobe:
It is unfortunate, that in the present discussions, the spotlight is on ISLAM - and if we are aware of the THIRD WORLD CIRCUMSTANCES in which the Islamic Religious Leaders are living in, where the Rule of Law and Order are practically non-existent.
Leadership is by those with wealth or military power - and this is hardly the ground in which Religious Leaders have any to boast about.
They can come to agreement on various things (things other than who is God of course). Catholic leaders and Buddist leaders have agreed to mutual respect and tolerance even though the teaching of each religion is a violation of the other's. Christian and Catholic leader have also learnt to coexist even though their beliefs are in direct conflict.Can one expect any one region to exercise leadership that is accepted by the other practitioners of the Faith ?Response by Atobe:The catholics did it, why can't you?
Your description is based on your Singapore experience - which is an inexact science, as it is the only model imposed by a STRONG POLITICAL LEADERSHIP onto the puch-and-pull of Religious self-interests.Can one separate religion from State Affairs, when some religion insist that Religion is LIFE in itself, and require the Faithful to live the Religious Principles in any and every possible way ?
Response by Atobe:
Did the Catholics do it, or was it forced onto the Catholic Church and its Faithful Followers ?
[quote]If Religion is LIFE, and Politics is also about LIFE - most Religious Leaders will insist to ask if it is not correct that one should govern the other in order to achieve the MORAL BALANCE that a Religion expects ?You think the cardinals and archbishops were happy when their power was taken from them when the church was separated from politics? Did you not wonder how the priests handled the separation since they too believed that religion is also life and to remove religion from politics would be illogical?
All those questions, doubts and social problems have been confronted by catholics, taoists and buddists before. You're not the first one, you won't be the last.
Its time that muslim leaders start to study the feasibility of reforms.
Response by Atobe:
If your response is based on the UNIQUE Singapore Experience, then you have again WRONGED our Singapore Muslim brothers and sisters - as they have always been a partner to the social contract amongst all the religiuos leaders forced onto them by the Political Leaders. -
Originally posted by Salman:
But fundamentalism in other religions don't pose a threat to the world like Muslims do today. Thats why there is a need for reformasi.
Originally posted by Atobe:
Is it surprising that it takes a NON-Muslim to suggest that REFORMATION should be made to ISLAM in which he has no interest other then to safeguard his own personal security against fanatics - of whom he should identity himself with ?
Fundamentalism exist in every religion, and it stems from INTOLERANCE towards any form of re-interpretation of the basic religious tenets, principles, and ideologies that form the basis of the religion.
Response by Atobe:
What experience and training do you have that will qualify you to make such a comment ?
How do you propose that ISLAM be reformed ?
Its Theology that forms the basis of ISLAM, reforming the Quran or the Hadith ?
Why not? Let it be a time for education and maturing for all.
If we question the fundamentals of a religion, it will require - for any thinking person to demand - also the answers to the necessity and relevance of Religion itself ?
Lets take opportunity to do that. Its good time.
Response by Atobe:
From your very flippant reply, it merely suggest the shallow consideration that you have given to a very complex subject that has major implications to itself as to the billions of its faithful.
Lets start thinking through the complexities then, just as the Catholics have done. If the Catholics can do it, why not Muslims?
If the existence of religion is necessary, should it be allowed such high profile and importance in any society, to the extent that it should threaten World stability and security ?
Unfortunately, REFORMATION is simpler said then done, and what is the point of saying the obvious without even thinking of the complexities involved when a religion is also intertwined with cultural and traditional practices - with each being peculiar to tribes, ethnicity, race, country and region.
Response by Atobe:
The Catholics have a unified organisation, with its very formal organisation structures in the Vatican.
Do the Muslims have the benefit of such a FORMAL and UNIFIED ENTITY ?
Can you put a "little effort" from your simplistic "no brainer, one-liner" type of RECKLESS and FLIPPANT thinking ?
Rubbish! There are 2 billion Christians and they come in thousands of sects.
Islam - like the other great religions from Asia, such as Budhism, Taoism, Judaism, Hinduism, Jaanism, Sikhism, Shintoism - are not as formal in its structure of an overseeing or global authority such as Catholics, Anglicans, Methodist, Baptist, Protestants.
Are you saying it can never be done in Islam? You wanna give up w/o even tryin?
Response by Atobe:
Garbage IN, will result in Garbage OUT.
The 2 Billions are divided into the main stream Catholics and Christians - with the Christians being "brached" into the main "groups" of Anglicanism, Baptism, Methodism, Protestants, and some other minor Christian Groups and older orthodox Christianity.
In each of these groups there exist a formal body that sits in the different centres of religious capital - with Catholics in the Vatican, Anglicanism in the Church of England, Methodist in the Methodist Council in the USA, and the others having their own Governing Body that guide their respective religious practices.
These groups are not allienated by sect, tribe, ethnicity, race, nor culture, traditions, politics, etc.
Can ISLAM and its Faithful Followers transcend the complexities of their religion that is intertwined into the many tribal, sectarian, ethnic, cultural, traditional, and political practices ?[b]
Lets start with you my friend, you and your friends.
Can one expect any one region to exercise leadership that is accepted by the other practitioners of the Faith ?
You remember the Mike Jackson song 'Man in the miror'? Nanananananana.............
BTW, I read somehwere that Jackson became a Muslim.
Response by Atobe:
The privilege should have gone to you first, since you are more familiar and learned in ISLAM, as you seem bent in your conviction that you have the ability to READ and HAVE READ the entire QURAN; and will be more accepted too, since you have those TWENTY FRIENDS "who do not question" and whom you based all your SLANTED VIEWS toward ISLAM and the Muslims.
Is it any surprise that Mike Jackson had a song "Man in the mirror" ?
He is also a "no brainer" too - if you realise, since you are so familiar with that song, and you should also know the numerous "no brainer" antics that he is capable of performing - he appreciates "sucks" too.
Is that not familiar to us all by now of your inclination to "sweet babes" - just like Mike Jackson ? .
Religion is life too for all other religions.
Can one separate religion from State Affairs, when some religion insist that Religion is LIFE in itself, and require the Faithful to live the Religious Principles in any and every possible way ?
If Religion is LIFE, and Politics is also about LIFE - most Religious Leaders will insist to ask if it is not correct that one should govern the other in order to achieve the MORAL BALANCE that a Religion expects ?
But they don't get involved in running the state.
So your definition and understanding of life needs to be reviewed in this reformation process.
Response by Atobe:
Can we believe in your confusing and contradicting statement ? .
If Religion is about LIFE and one conveniently forget about religious teachings when practicing POLITICS, is it any wonder that we have "no brainers" who believe in killing innocent LIVES for the sake of their POLITCS and WILL FORGET their religious teachings ? .
Did we listen to you blaming those extremists for being Muslims and committing Terrorist Acts ? .
Or did they follow your "no brainer" approach by separating Religion from Politics and commit their terrorist political acts ? . .
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Response by Atobe:
By virture that our lives are constantly being threatened everytime the muslims are not happy about something. Can I practise my faith in a muslim country? Will another priest be killed if the danish drew another picture of the prophet?
What experience and training do you have that will qualify you to make such a comment ?
How do you propose that ISLAM be reformed ?
Its Theology that forms the basis of ISLAM, reforming the Quran or the Hadith ?
Once the whole world starts to hate us, we must begin to ask ourselves why.Response by Atobe:
When the catholic church was removed from its political place, there were many implications to the millions of followers too. Today the catholic faith is still very strong.
From your very flippant reply, it merely suggest the shallow consideration that you have given to a very complex subject that has major implications to itself as to the billions of its faithful.Response by Atobe:
You only hear about the ROMAN catholic church, lead by the pope. The orthodox catholics are lead by their own leader and have no formal connection to the roman catholic church. They have no obligation to listen to the pope.
The Catholics have a unified organisation, with its very formal organisation structures in the Vatican.
Do the Muslims have the benefit of such a FORMAL and UNIFIED ENTITY ?
Can you put a "little effort" from your simplistic "no brainer, one-liner" type of RECKLESS and FLIPPANT thinking ?
There are a few other catholic bodies that have nothing to do with the roman and orthodox church. An example is the china catholic church.Response by Atobe:
Christianity is very diverse, more so than islam. Any yahoo can get a few friends to his house and strum the guitar to some popular christian songs and claim that he has started a new church.
Garbage IN, will result in Garbage OUT.
The 2 Billions are divided into the main stream Catholics and Christians - with the Christians being "brached" into the main "groups" of Anglicanism, Baptism, Methodism, Protestants, and some other minor Christian Groups and older orthodox Christianity.
In each of these groups there exist a formal body that sits in the different centres of religious capital - with Catholics in the Vatican, Anglicanism in the Church of England, Methodist in the Methodist Council in the USA, and the others having their own Governing Body that guide their respective religious practices.
These groups are not allienated by sect, tribe, ethnicity, race, nor culture, traditions, politics, etc.
Can ISLAM and its Faithful Followers transcend the complexities of their religion that is intertwined into the many tribal, sectarian, ethnic, cultural, traditional, and political practices ?
There are Baptists, faith baptists, bible baptists, methodist baptists... that's just one string of denomination alone.
There are also those that do not brance from any major denominations, such as new creations and city harvest. They claim no ties to any other denominations. There are hundreds more in USA and europe.
Catholics are the most stringent and tightly managed, hence there are less catholic denominations.
The history of christianity is as complex, bloody and intertwined as islamic denominations. Can you imagine that every christian denomination claims to be the original and first church?Response by Atobe:
...
The privilege should have gone to you first, since you are more familiar and learned in ISLAM, as you seem bent in your conviction that you have the ability to READ and HAVE READ the entire QURAN; and will be more accepted too, since you have those TWENTY FRIENDS "who do not question" and whom you based all your SLANTED VIEWS toward ISLAM and the Muslims.
Is it any surprise that Mike Jackson had a song "Man in the mirror" ?
He is also a "no brainer" too - if you realise, since you are so familiar with that song, and you should also know the numerous "no brainer" antics that he is capable of performing - he appreciates "sucks" too.
Is that not familiar to us all by now of your inclination to "sweet babes" - just like Mike Jackson ? .Response by Atobe:
If religion is about tolerance and respect, then in politics, how come I see muslim countries practising an utter lack of tolerance and respect for other religions?
Can we believe in your confusing and contradicting statement ? .
If Religion is about LIFE and one conveniently forget about religious teachings when practicing POLITICS, is it any wonder that we have "no brainers" who believe in killing innocent LIVES for the sake of their POLITCS and WILL FORGET their religious teachings ? .
Did we listen to you blaming those extremists for being Muslims and committing Terrorist Acts ? .
Or did they follow your "no brainer" approach by separating Religion from Politics and commit their terrorist political acts ? . .
If religion is about the sancity of life, then a muslim country cannot go to war?
Even when politics and religion are put together, that did not stop 5 countries from attacking Isreal? That did not stop indonesia from calling singapore a red dot? That did not stop saddam from gassing the kurds? That did not help the polics in muslim countries to protect the american embassies that were destroyed?
So tell me now, does putting religion with politics help improve the behaviour of the govt? Where is the faith in politics then? -
Like the chinese saying, those not personally involved in the issue can see the clearest. When muslims and those targetted by terrorism get emotional, they tend to be less rational. Those on the outside can give objective suggestions and logical response.
But if the muslims refuse to voice up when their fellow muslims kill priests in the name of their god, what then? Let the priests die?
Response by Atobe:
Should one who knows nothing about the complexities of Theology of a Religion be allowed to participate in the REFORMATION or comment on the Religion ?
Can one imagine a Budhist helping a Catholic to reform Catholicism ?I'm glad you can clerly identify and vocalise the cause of fundamentalism. Do you think there is muslim fundamentalists bringing a bad name to islam?
What about those who kill priests and destroy american embassies in the name of islam? Should passive muslims and muslim leaders continue to accept such disgraceful behaviour?
Fundamentalism takes different forms - the Passive and the Reactive.
Passive FUNDAMENTALISM does not impose itself on anyone, compared to the REACTIVE FUNDAMENTALISM.
In its basic form - FUNDAMENTALISM - is about the return of a Religion (any religion) to its foundation, its roots, its beginnings, it original form - and is an expression of concern towards the corruption of the Religion by forces that is pulling the Religion to a new form.
This is similar to Mao Tse Tung's own fundamentalist revival to the purity of the Communist Struggle when he launched the Cultural Revolution to imbue the Precepts of the Communist Struggle.
Religious Fundamentalism is a battle of forces within the religion as practised by those Passive Fundamentalists; and a battle conducted by Reactive Fundamentalists towards external corrupting influences on its Religion.The necessity and relevance of religion to life, this answer is roughly the same with few negligible variations for all major religions.
Very true. I stand corrected. Ironically, in my capacity as a religious practioner, I welcome challenges to my faith. Only by questioning my understanding of my faith, can I truely know the extent of my knowledge (or lack thereof) and faith.
Response by Atobe:
Unfortunately, different religion approach this subject in different forms, and an aethiest will differ in his opinions from an agnostic, and this subject is totally blasphemious to some other more religious thinkers.
This allows me to constantly keep myself in check without going overboard in my actions.To me, religion is necessassary. But many have lived without religion, invented their own, and some even believe in many religions concurrently! As important and necessassary religion is, there is never enough reason to take another human life. I believe in the sanctity of life.
Very unfortunately, evident by the many dead priests.
Response by Atobe:
Unfortunately, others - who are more simplistic and practical in their mental faculties - will differ from your position taken.All major religions are very intertwined with tradition, culture and life itself. Buddism and taoism is very integrated with chinese lifestyle and folklore. Christianity is also very integral in the culture, history and even language of the westerners.
All religions demand that their believers must follow the religious teachings with no exceptions. Failure means purgatory, Hell or both.
That didn't stop them from separating religion from politics.
Response by Atobe:
While certain religions that you have mentioned allow its followers to have the flexibility to separate Religion from Politics, it merely suggest that the practitioners of those Faiths have been able to "turn a blind eye" when "offending their own Religion" in the course of making a "Political Act"
Some other Religions will DEMAND that the Faithful Belivers of their Faith MUST FOLLOW THE RELIGIOUS TEACHINGS IN ITS ENTIRETY - with NO EXCEPTIONS.
BG Yeo is a catholic and a minister. He lives his life as a God loving and fearing follower of Christ and discharges his duties as a political leader of singapore. He does not smite the taoists for believeing many gods, nor does he marginalise the muslims for the dead priests in another country.
Ironically, since islam teaches about love and peace, toerlance and Godlyness, how come the muslim teachers and leaders can turn a blind eye when calling for the extermination of a race or another religion? Clerics and mullahs can encourage their followers to kill danes? They can declare that the rain of aeroplanes will not end until the great satan is destroyed? Are they discharging their duties as religious leaders or have they too turned a blind eye to their religion?Perhaps it is time for clerics and mullahs to provide an avenue for their followers to clarify certain confusing aspects of their religion. Also, there are many parts of islam that has been misintepreted and exploited by certain terrorists. Responsible and God loving clerics and mullahs should try to clarify those points.
Islamic country have many islamic leaders and teaches, many of which are influential and very high profile. In all fairness, I did read about a cleric in iraq calling for peace and an end to terrorism. I think he is Sisitianti... I forgot how to spell his name.
Clerics and mullahs, like priests, monks and the Pope are not only religious leaders, but also public figures. Their followers look to them for leadership and guidance. They should condemn any atrocities, crimes and terrorist acts that their follow indulge in. Not just keep quiet and be happy about it.
Response by Atobe:
It is unfortunate, that in the present discussions, the spotlight is on ISLAM - and if we are aware of the THIRD WORLD CIRCUMSTANCES in which the Islamic Religious Leaders are living in, where the Rule of Law and Order are practically non-existent.
Leadership is by those with wealth or military power - and this is hardly the ground in which Religious Leaders have any to boast about.
There are many more influential clerics in the muslim world that have been keeping quiet, if not praising, the various terrorist acts. When they call for terrorism against danes or americans, their followers really do respond to them.
There are also many islamic countries where the muslims are not oppressed or poor. They too have many mullahs and clerics who keep quiet to the terrorist acts committed in the name of islam.They can come to agreement on various things (things other than who is God of course). Catholic leaders and Buddist leaders have agreed to mutual respect and tolerance even though the teaching of each religion is a violation of the other's. Christian and Catholic leader have also learnt to coexist even though their beliefs are in direct conflict.
In my capacity as a catholic, I think in terms of catholics worldwide, not catholics in singapore. The former pope has spearheaded many interreligious talks personally. That shows his committment to peace despite having countless cardinals and bishops that he can send in his stead.
Response by Atobe:
Your description is based on your Singapore experience - which is an inexact science, as it is the only model imposed by a STRONG POLITICAL LEADERSHIP onto the puch-and-pull of Religious self-interests.
The pope has made his stance on peace and tolerence very clear. Have the various muslim clerics and mullahs done the same?The catholics did it, why can't you?
Must the change be forced on the muslims by virture of arms and blood before they are willing to conduct change themselves? There may only be one salman in sgforums. There are hundreds or salmans in usa and europe. For each active salman, there are hundreds of passive salmans.
Response by Atobe:
Did the Catholics do it, or was it forced onto the Catholic Church and its Faithful Followers ?
I shudder to see the day that the non muslims have to band together to teach the muslims with blood and human lives the value of peaceful coexistence.You think the cardinals and archbishops were happy when their power was taken from them when the church was separated from politics? Did you not wonder how the priests handled the separation since they too believed that religion is also life and to remove religion from politics would be illogical?
My response once again, is in the capacity of the catholic commuinty in the global village, not just singapore.
All those questions, doubts and social problems have been confronted by catholics, taoists and buddists before. You're not the first one, you won't be the last.
Its time that muslim leaders start to study the feasibility of reforms.
Response by Atobe:
If your response is based on the UNIQUE Singapore Experience, then you have again WRONGED our Singapore Muslim brothers and sisters - as they have always been a partner to the social contract amongst all the religiuos leaders forced onto them by the Political Leaders.
You'd be surprised at the actual semtiment many of our muslim bretheren hold. I posted in another thread that when questioned, these muslims actually support terrorism against america. As much as I find american foreign policy childish and wrong, I still believe in the sancity of life, american or otherwise. That includes muslims.