Cartoon of Mohammad creates International Row.
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I don't give in to threats. You open your eyes and look at all the personal attacks from Atobe. You should ban him, not me.
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Maybe the social integration wasn't such a success?
But outside of social integration, I think religion takes on its own life, and religious communities must take responsibility for abuses of their religious faith. -
Social integration programs in Singapore do work, but it is not a panacea. We will still have to recognise these extremist elements and counter them. It would be a big mistake to ignore the threats posed by these elements who want to poison the minds of our youths.
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Originally posted by Yi Peng:
Even if anyone threaten you in this Speakers' Corner, can we reach you ?
I don't give in to threats. You open your eyes and look at all the personal attacks from Atobe. You should ban him, not me.
Personal attacks from Atobe ?
Nothing is 'personal' here, the 'attacks' are only a counterstrike towards those who dare call others - 'whiners' - simply for disagreeing with the posting of each of our personal views here.
Also, if you are prepared to make bigotry and slanderous grandstanding statements be prepared to defend your position - apply the standards to yourself, as much as you demand the standards from others.
If you ask proof from others, and you cannot accept those submission as proof, try proving your own position that can make others accept your position - this is what debate is all about.
Why walk away - from even a 'simple cup of black brew crude' ?
Ban Atobe ?
Atobe remains as Atobe.
Atobe do not resort to - will not - change the 'NAME' to post the same 'atobe' philosophies and principles. -
Originally posted by Atobe:
The existence of JI and extremists like you proves that 40 years of social integration didn't work for you.
If you ask proof from others, and you cannot accept those submission as proof, try proving your own position that can make others accept your position - this is what debate is all about.
What do you have to say about that? -
You guys are a riot!
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Thats what happens when the admin allows kooks like Atobe who keeps spamming personal attacks around. Notice that he never deals with the issues but focus solely of accusations, name callings and personal attacks to no end.
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Originally posted by Yi Peng:
If 'social integration programs in Singapore do work' - will we have unthinking responses to crisis that lump the entire communal or ethnic group with suspicion for the 'stupid' work of those few misguided persons misguided by extremist elements ?
Social integration programs in Singapore do work, but it is not a panacea. We will still have to recognise these extremist elements and counter them. It would be a big mistake to ignore the threats posed by these elements who want to poison the minds of our youths.
It is through such 'knee jerk' anti-integrative response that will unravel the fabric of society, when we get unthinking persons - who will insist on broad brushing entire ethnic groups simply for holding the same characteristics as the identified extremist elements.
It is a bigger mistake if we ignore the threats posed by those who mistakenly broad brush whole communities from which these extremist elements come from, as such attempts will only alienate and poison our youths on both sides of this 'Divide in Understanding'.
Read the post from the Israelis Defense Minister, who have finally awaken to the futility of force being applied to an already suppressed community - and which you had dismissed.
For your benefit, that piece is reproduced:
In a report on "War on Terrorism - How to make a martyr ? "
The following observation was made by Israel's defence minister, Benjamin Ben-Eliezer also wondered what motivates suicide bombers.[/color]
"[color=red]The military actions kindle the frustration, hatred and despair and are the incubator for the terror to come.
The religious and political environment immediately exploits this and dispatches the new suicide bombers and the pattern is repeated.
" Vulnerable young girls are easy pickings. "The environment exploits fragile personalities and gets them swept up in a current." -
Originally posted by Atobe:
First of all, nobody is doing that except you. Nobody lumps all Muslims togther except you, it is you who did that. We can scan thru all the posts and see that for ourselves. It is you who knee jerk all the time and throwing accusations at others without evidence. You are saying that posts on extremists are attacks on all Muslims and in so doing that trying to lump all Muslims as one.
If 'social integration programs in Singapore do work' - will we have unthinking responses to crisis that lump the entire communal or ethnic group with suspicion for the 'stupid' work of those few misguided persons misguided by extremist elements ?
It is through such 'knee jerk' anti-integrative response that will unravel the fabric of society, when we get unthinking persons - who will insist on broad brushing entire ethnic groups simply for holding the same characteristics as the identified extremist elements.
You are one dangerous guy Mr.Atobe. -
Originally posted by Yi Peng:
First of all, nobody is doing that except you. Nobody lumps all Muslims togther except you, it is you who did that. We can scan thru all the posts and see that for ourselves. It is you who knee jerk all the time and throwing accusations at others without evidence. You are saying that posts on extremists are attacks on all Muslims and in so doing that trying to lump all Muslims as one.
You are one dangerous guy Mr.Atobe. [/quote]
Lets see some of the post that were made by Salman a.k.a Yi Peng a.k.a "Salman Fish Cake" - and determine if Atobe was justified in the statement that the 'no brainer' made a lump out of all Muslims for the work done by those extremists in their community :Originally posted by Salman: 14 February 2006 – 12.07PM
[quote]Originally posted by Salman: 14 February 2006 – 09.15PM
Allah's law supecedes human laws. Thats what faith is all about. Humans are a foolish lot and will bring ultimate death and destruction. The ways Allah are of supreme wisdom. Only through submission to Allah will there be true peace.I don't think Rushdie was blasphem444ous.
The Satanic Verses were not an invention by Rushdie but an episode of Muhamad's life recorded in islamic traditions.
I don't understand why Muslims hate him or want to kill him.
Muslims who want to kill him did not even read his book and know nothing about islamic traditions about Muhamad.The real root of the problem isn't the cartoons but islamic extremism.
Arab media is full of anti Christian, anti Jew and anti pagan propaganda, its staple. Yet these people insist on the paper shutting down and apologise for those cartoons. Is that double standards or what?
Why is it that these extremists have the right to insult other religion? Do they think they are somehow superior to others in such a way that they can demand that others submit to their whims?I think these people shopuld go back to where they come from if they don't like western culture.
Were there any differentiation between them and they, them and you, extremists and Muslims . ?This is not anti muslim or anti islam statement, its pure logic.
If you don't like a society, why migrate there? Whats the logic? If you don't want to integrate, get out.
Do they want to take this statement as an excuse to attack somebody again?
I read the papers yesterday that Christians in Nigeria were killed over the cartoons. Do you blame the cartoons of the people who took it as a opportunity to exact violence on others?
Still cannot figure out the lump of the Fish Cake stuck in Salman's throat ? -
misrepresentation on your part Atobe. First of all I'm not Salman. But for arguments's sake lets examine so of the stuff you brought up.
Can you please give us the link to this section and see who Salman was refering to in context?
quote:Originally posted by Salman: 14 February 2006 – 12.07PM
Allah's law supecedes human laws. Thats what faith is all about. Humans are a foolish lot and will bring ultimate death and destruction. The ways Allah are of supreme wisdom. Only through submission to Allah will there be true peace.
Are you one of those Muslims who want to kill Salman Rushdie?
quote:Originally posted by Salman: 14 February 2006 – 09.15PM
I don't think Rushdie was blasphem444ous.
The Satanic Verses were not an invention by Rushdie but an episode of Muhamad's life recorded in islamic traditions.
I don't understand why Muslims hate him or want to kill him.
Muslims who want to kill him did not even read his book and know nothing about islamic traditions about Muhamad.
If you are, then you are not an extremist.
BTW the Satanic Vereses do exist, Muslim schorlars will tell you that as well. You can read it up in wikipedia.
Read carefully again. Salman talked about extremists and not Muslims in general? So who's the broad brusher here? It is you Atobe who is the trouble maker, not others.
quote:Originally posted by Salman: 20 February 2006 – 10.29PM
The real root of the problem isn't the cartoons but islamic extremism.
Arab media is full of anti Christian, anti Jew and anti pagan propaganda, its staple. Yet these people insist on the paper shutting down and apologise for those cartoons. Is that double standards or what?
Why is it that these extremists have the right to insult other religion? Do they think they are somehow superior to others in such a way that they can demand that others submit to their whims?
These people? Who was Salman refering to? Can you show us the link?
quote:Originally posted by Salman: 21 February 2006 – 12.07AM
I think these people shopuld go back to where they come from if they don't like western culture.
I agree with this statement. People who don't want to integrate should leave. Its like people who don't like Singapore, they should migrate.
quote:Originally posted by Salman: 21 February 2006 – 09.15AM
This is not anti muslim or anti islam statement, its pure logic.
If you don't like a society, why migrate there? Whats the logic? If you don't want to integrate, get out.
Where is it did he say all Muslims are responsisble for killing Christians?
Do they want to take this statement as an excuse to attack somebody again?
I read the papers yesterday that Christians in Nigeria were killed over the cartoons. Do you blame the cartoons of the people who took it as a opportunity to exact violence on others?
Is there? Maybe not to you Atobe. You tend to lump extremists with Muslims at large.
Were there any differentiation between them and they, them and you, extremists and Muslims . ?
neither can we understand why proton can be atobe.
Still cannot figure out the lump of the Fish Cake stuck in Salman's throat ? -
the moral is..
u keep yr nose out of other ppl's religion and u wont get killed..
not to mention what's the problem with u making fun of other ppl's religion?
well there are 2 bill christian and 1.2 bil muslims and etc etc.
if the "people" were to draw bad things bout the christians//what will happen?
ww3?..ww4? -
They always do, nothing happened.
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what u mean?.Originally posted by Yi Peng:They always do, nothing happened.
u try drawing Jesus christ in a bad manner..see if i'll track u down and make sure yr face is in the front page of every news paper.! -
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Piss_Christ
Try this -
if stupid ppl want to make fun of other ppl's religion...must u indulge in them to make them happier?>Originally posted by Yi Peng:http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Piss_Christ
Try this -
You asked what happens when people make fun of Jesus. I just showed you nothing happened. There wasn't any riots and the guy who made it wasn't threatened.
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Aw c'mon YP, you're Salman and there's no need to deny it.
Although you have in your posts made a conscious effort to differentiate extremists from Muslims generally, but at some points you have also exhibited a general anger towards the Muslim community.
The point that I have been trying to make is that this general anger is not altogether irrational. Everytime extremist actions are taken out in the name of Islam without strong rebuke from the Muslim community, it inevitably gives outsiders the impression that Islam is an easy platform for extremism. To some extent, the cartoon episode resonates this theme. I don't think this can be denied.
At some point in time, we can't just stop at dismissing extremists as extremists. Given the widespread circumstances, surely it is fair to prod a little deeper to question why extremism appears to be breeding from the same pool?
If I run a school, and there are constantly blacksheep going about committing crimes on the basis of the school's teachings, I would certainly be a little concerned about what has gone wrong within my school. -
The problem is not with me, the problem is with how you choose to read it into what wrote. I'm not angry at Muslims at all. I'm nice to Muslims. But we do need to recognise the extremists among Muslims for who they are and they are a real threat.
Although you have in your posts made a conscious effort to differentiate extremists from Muslims generally, but at some points you have also exhibited a general anger towards the Muslim community.
Anger? What anger are you talking about? I'm not angry. Atobe is angry.
The point that I have been trying to make is that this general anger is not altogether irrational. Everytime extremist actions are taken out in the name of Islam without strong rebuke from the Muslim community, it inevitably gives outsiders the impression that Islam is an easy platform for extremism. To some extent, the cartoon episode resonates this theme. I don't think this can be denied.
It is not widespread in Singapore, but it is widespread in the middle east. Thats what I have been saying. Its what the media and the schools feed the people in these countries.
At some point in time, we can't just stop at dismissing extremists as extremists. Given the widespread circumstances, surely it is fair to prod a little deeper to question why extremism appears to be breeding from the same pool?
There are many extremists schools in Pakistan. These are the schools that needs to be destroyed. There are also many such schools in Malaysia but the government is withdrawing funding from them and trying to control cirriculum in public funded madrasahs.
If I run a school, and there are constantly blacksheep going about committing crimes on the basis of the school's teachings, I would certainly be a little concerned about what has gone wrong within my school.
Can extremism grow in this region? Yes, thats why we need to be vigilant and confront these extremists wherever they are so that they don't not poison the minds of the youths.
These extremists go onto the net and defend terrorism in teh anme of injustice and human rights. -
Looks like CenturionMBT needs to join admin if this mess were to be cleared up.
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Its easy to clean up. Atobe just needs to stop his spamming and personal attacks. He is trying desperately to shut down all discussion on extremism and terrorism by saying that such discussions attack all Muslims. At the same time, he justifies terrorism and extremism with talks of injustice and sympathy. This is a dishonest mode of discussion employed by extremists all over the media. Thats why we have so much problems all over the world today.
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Just bestow power to ban on more moderators and the place will be a hell lot better than it currently is.Originally posted by Yi Peng:Its easy to clean up. Atobe just needs to stop his spamming and personal attacks. He is trying desperately to shut down all discussion on extremism and terrorism by saying that such discussions attack all Muslims. At the same time, he justifies terrorism and extremism with talks of injustice and sympathy. This is a dishonest mode of discussion employed by extremists all over the media. Thats why we have so much problems all over the world today. -
Got say like no say.Originally posted by iveco:Just bestow power to ban on more moderators and the place will be a hell lot better than it currently is. -
It is actually quite entertaining the way it is. Moderators shouldn't be too trigger happy. Bans should only be reserved for people who are downright annoying and deliberately so.Originally posted by iveco:Just bestow power to ban on more moderators and the place will be a hell lot better than it currently is. -
Agree.