Cartoon of Mohammad creates International Row.
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Generally speaking, the root of most Islamic extremism is in the misguided application of Salafism and Wahabbism.Reform these movements and the world won't be in a world of hurt.(no pun intended.)
It's also true for Christian fundamentalist evangelicals, people like Pat Robertson can go and have tea with the Saudi supporters of those austere, extremist interpretations of religion.
The biggest threat to world peace are pulpit-salesmen who attempt to justify their religion's existence and supremacy not by faith, but by the destruction of the Other.
It is unerringly pathetic when you cannot deal with the issues in your own court and have to expound your interpretations through the Other so that the Self may seem like a better choice.
Sounds more to me to be at home within the right-wing media circles of the West than the dusty streets of Ramallah, which incidentally is the most metropolitan and culturally diverse , not to mention liberal area in Palestine.
These chaps were the most opposed to a Hamas victory.You can see why, who would trade a vibrant oasis for a sparse and monopolistically sectarian city? -
So the key is to counter salafism. You are absolutely correct.
I read a translated article from a moderate Muslim complaining about what happened at the recent Riyadh book fair.
Religious police flood the exhibition and told everyone what to do and what not to do. A man with a blind wife was not allowed to hold the hand of his wife as he led her in walking because it would seem too romantic. Liberal speakers were targeted and intimidated from making their speeches. Salesmen were told not to be friendly to female customers. Thats how depraved these extremists are, even the Saudis themselves cannot tahan.
I know of this Saudi man who said that he will send his sisters out of Saudi Arabia once he dad dies and his sisters became his property because he too cannot tolerate how women are oppressed in his country. -
frankly i am getting really sick and tired of hearing all that bu11shit. extremist should be hung and destroyed...they are sickening the whole world and being a real pest.Originally posted by Yi Peng:So the key is to counter salafism. You are absolutely correct.
I read a translated article from a moderate Muslim complaining about what happened at the recent Riyadh book fair.
Religious police flood the exhibition and told everyone what to do and what not to do. A man with a blind wife was not allowed to hold the hand of his wife as he led her in walking because it would seem too romantic. Liberal speakers were targeted and intimidated from making their speeches. Salesmen were told not to be friendly to female customers. Thats how depraved these extremists are, even the Saudis themselves cannot tahan.
I know of this Saudi man who said that he will send his sisters out of Saudi Arabia once he dad dies and his sisters became his property because he too cannot tolerate how women are oppressed in his country. -
Ha ha, aren't we all tired of the frequent justifications of terror? Just because the americans destroyed entire villages in the vietnam war, its ok for terrorists to call for the annilation of entire races? Just because Hitler tried to get rid of the jews, its ok for certain terrorists to get rid of the christians?Originally posted by Thailand_Hero:frankly i am getting really sick and tired of hearing all that bu11shit. extremist should be hung and destroyed...they are sickening the whole world and being a real pest.
Aren't these some of the arguments heard in this thread alone? So its ok for hundreds of people to die because it has happened before in history...
Thai, Salman, Atobe, proton, I think we should respect the sancity of life, tolerate and respect the wishes and religion of others and end terrorism instead of justifying it. -
Originally posted by SilverPal:
Most of the village destructions were perpetuated by communists. Remember that. Did American destroy entire villages? Were these policies on the entire US?
Ha ha, aren't we all tired of the frequent justifications of terror? Just because the americans destroyed entire villages in the vietnam war, its ok for terrorists to call for the annilation of entire races? Just because Hitler tried to get rid of the jews, its ok for certain terrorists to get rid of the christians?
Did anyone here make those arguments? Please show us.
Aren't these some of the arguments heard in this thread alone? So its ok for hundreds of people to die because it has happened before in history...
I never justified terrorism. Atobe and his false nick proton & blur did.
Thai, Salman, Atobe, proton, I think we should respect the sancity of life, tolerate and respect the wishes and religion of others and end terrorism instead of justifying it.
To end terrorism, we need to kill terrorists and those who house them and expose their evil ideology. [/quote] -
Sorry, I din mean to say that you supported terrorism. My mistake.Originally posted by Yi Peng: -
There have been a few in this forum who justify terrorism. Since you demand proof I got a few...Originally posted by Yi Peng:Did anyone here make those arguments? Please show us.what happens now in iraq? how about testing freedom of speech in western world? how about i suggest an equal number of westerners be killed by bombing? will freedom of speech exist in that case?
Surely, you must have heard of the saying that "Power comes from the Barrel of the Gun" ?
Can billions of passive citizens prevent Mao Tse Tung unleashingthe thousand of fervent Red Guards in the Cultural Revolution in China ?
By your first question, the many reasonable Germans could have stopped the Nazi Germans from practicing their self-destructive ideology that led to WW-2 - yet, why was the larger German community remained paralysed by the Nazis ?
Similarly, why is the larger Iranian citizens unable to overcome their passivity to overthrow the few hundred hated Ruling Mullahs and the few thousand Revolutionary Guards ?To your second and third question:
Is a religion and its larger faithful followers to be blamed for the action of a reckless few, who are bent on bringing despair and instability onto society and country ?
Throughout the history of Mankind, hapless and unarmed civilians have always been the target of opportunity, to put the system under pressure, to create a wider crack in an already stressed society.
Who was Hitler to decide that all Jews must be exterminated ?
Did the Japanese General think he was GOD, to decide to send his victorious Army to sack the city of Nanjing ?
Where was Truman's Christian moral principles when he decided to drop the Atomic Bomb on Hiroshima, and the H-Bomb on Nagasaki - killing millions of innocent lives in the process, and leaving genetic scars to generations after ?Exactly, when the Cultural Revolution surged, will you betray your loved ones, or will you go against the militant and fanatical Red Guards ?
In the midst of the strong, can the hapless and voiceless individual be able to withstand the ferocity of those few - who are better armed and organised ?DONT think it is the terrorists who INSIST on linking islam with violence. we NEVER heard such things during soviet invasion of afghanistan, when backed by USA many muslims from many parts of the world, arrived in afghanistan to wage "jihad" against "infidels".
next time terrorists wanna kill some one they have better logic. stuff some drugs in innocent people's mouths, say they possess drugs. they'd better be killed!
These arguments, when followed through the thread, were justification of terrorism. The rest were name calling and pot shots by proton and at times atobe when pushed into a corner. -
I've said it and I'll never stop saying this. Guys like Atobe do support and justify terrorism just because he happens to be Muslim. They are the ones who give islam a real bad name and we need to deal with such people.
Atobe's tactic is simple.
1. Justify terrorism with justice
2. Shut those who criticise and expose extremism by accusing them of racism etc.
3. Accuse USA of terrorism and human right abuse while turning a blind eye to terrorism and oppression by Muslims against non Muslims.
In order to stop terrorism, truth must prevail and blind eyes must be opened. Don't try to cover up the evils of extremism. -
Salman (aka Yi Peng?) seems to be going down that path, don't you think?Originally posted by Rexdriver:It is actually quite entertaining the way it is. Moderators shouldn't be too trigger happy. Bans should only be reserved for people who are downright annoying and deliberately so.
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Thai and Salman, I do acknowledge that you are both against terrorism, didn't mean to say you guys supported it. Guess my post was somewhat inaccurate and misleading.Originally posted by Yi Peng:I've said it and I'll never stop saying this. Guys like Atobe do support and justify terrorism just because he happens to be Muslim. They are the ones who give islam a real bad name and we need to deal with such people.
Atobe's tactic is simple.
1. Justify terrorism with justice
2. Shut those who criticise and expose extremism by accusing them of racism etc.
3. Accuse USA of terrorism and human right abuse while turning a blind eye to terrorism and oppression by Muslims against non Muslims.
In order to stop terrorism, truth must prevail and blind eyes must be opened. Don't try to cover up the evils of extremism.
I believe that atobe might be somewhat misguided, but he means well, abuses and insults notwithstanding. Proton is the really terrorist supporter. You should go thru his posts and see how he not only justifies terrorism, he actually believes in their cause and shows very strong signs that if given the chance, he would actually join them in killing all non believers, myself included.
Atobe is just miscommunicating with myself and salman. Perhaps instead of hurling abuses, insults and taking a defensive position, making ourselves impervious to reasoning of others, salman and atobe should both take time to understand the points put across by the other. Myself included.
And I'm not too afraid if proton decides to blow up those who opposes him, because I know he'll kill salman first,
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The movie Da Vinci Code is a lot more blasphemous than the few harmless cartoon drawing of a prophet.
Well, we don't see any Christians burning embassies or bomb their own people. -
If you follow the threads on terrorism, you'll notice that Atobe insinuated that christians make up the majority of terrorists and terrorist organisations.Originally posted by Honeybunz:The movie Da Vinci Code is a lot more blasphemous than the few harmless cartoon drawing of a prophet.
Well, we don't see any Christians burning embassies or bomb their own people.
According to him, christians ARE bombing embassies and killing infidels. It just that the media doesn't report it. -
haha its politically incorrect to even compare christians and 'them'Originally posted by Honeybunz:The movie Da Vinci Code is a lot more blasphemous than the few harmless cartoon drawing of a prophet.
Well, we don't see any Christians burning embassies or bomb their own people.
can we compare humans to a virus?
anyone who has no regard for human life is like a cancer or virus that will eat away at civilization until its been cut off and destroyed.
I guess christians and the rest of the world sees things differently as compared to 'them'. why would christians want to riot over a movie resulting in loss of property and human life? it just makes no sense. I strongly condemn the riots. -
It's blasphemy to some, it's another angle to others.Originally posted by Honeybunz:The movie Da Vinci Code is a lot more blasphemous than the few harmless cartoon drawing of a prophet.
Well, we don't see any Christians burning embassies or bomb their own people.
We do not riot and burn even if we believe it to be wrong.Because there is faith in God that He will guide the ignorant.
The rest, the less said the better. -
If I were you, I will give up on him long ago.Originally posted by SilverPal:If you follow the threads on terrorism, you'll notice that Atobe insinuated that christians make up the majority of terrorists and terrorist organisations.
According to him, christians ARE bombing embassies and killing infidels. It just that the media doesn't report it. -
Are you interested in the truth or continue with the efforts of Salman in disguising your bigotry slant with carefully chosen soothing words ?Originally posted by Yi Peng:I've said it and I'll never stop saying this. Guys like Atobe do support and justify terrorism just because he happens to be Muslim. They are the ones who give islam a real bad name and we need to deal with such people.
Atobe's tactic is simple.
1. Justify terrorism with justice
2. Shut those who criticise and expose extremism by accusing them of racism etc.
3. Accuse USA of terrorism and human right abuse while turning a blind eye to terrorism and oppression by Muslims against non Muslims.
In order to stop terrorism, truth must prevail and blind eyes must be opened. Don't try to cover up the evils of extremism.
Salman joined this forum on 20 September 2005, faded about the time when the smoke morphed into Yi Peng - joining this Speakers' Corner on 28 February 2006 - resulting in the Moderator 'greengoblin' writing :Originally posted by greengoblin : 08 March 2006 10:08AMYi Peng or you know who you are initially... Stop all these persoanl attacks immediately and steer back to an objective discussion. I suppose a ban on your nick is not enough for you?
Perhaps you will like an IP ban as well?
Do accord others respect and others will treat you kindly.
Both Salman and the Fish Cake seem to share the same strong and indiscriminate oppressive preference towards the 'extremists' and the communities which they come from.
1. "Guys like Atobe do support and justify terrorism just because he happens to be Muslim " ? [/quote]
What is it that gave a 'Fish Cake' the hint that I am a Muslim ?
Was it in my past contributions in this Speakers' Corner, which surely both the 'smoked Salman' and the 'fishy Fish Cake' can hardly have been aware of ?
A Brave Vision for an Old Religion for a Future New World – Atobe – 07 October 2003 – 01:33PM
Muslim Headscarf ruling – BillyBong – 23 February 2004 – 12:08AM
Why do the Iraqi insurgents pick on Fellow Asians ? – Atobe – 01 September 2004 – 02:49AM
Was Atobe alone in exposing the slant of the Salman Fish Cake in broad brushing the "extremists" labels on others whom they cannot tolerate ?
2. "Shut those who criticise and expose extremism by accusing them of racism etc. " ?
Why did the Moderator decide to close the following threads ?
"Discrimination in Malaysia - Part 1 and Part 2"
- was these two threads began with a generous concern for Malaysia, or was it a mischevious attempt to denigrate our neighbor, who "happen" to be largely Muslims ?
"A True Story on the Lives of Saudi Women"
- was this a personal concern towards Saudi Women in particular, or a continuous attempt at "stamping down" on Islam and Muslims ?
"Muslims please help out"
- was this thread begun with an effort to understand Islam, or was this another attempt at deceit to cover your efforts in trampling the followers of this Religion ?
"The Treatment of Infidels in Saudi Arabia - a Time to Apo"
- is this not another attempt at using the honesty of others to suit your continuous efforts at slandering Islam and Muslims ?3. "Accuse USA of terrorism and human right abuse while turning a blind eye to terrorism and oppression by Muslims against non Muslims. "
Is it any surprise that both will consider themselves in a better position - through their arm-chair TV experience - that they consider themselves better than those who have the first hand experience in handling the Arabs and their insurgent uprising towards Israel ?
Should we not be surprise if both the Salman Fish Cake will ignore the wisdom of the Israeli Minister of Home Affairs ?
Did you not read my post of 6 March 2006 - 02.21AM ?
For your benefit, the following is repeated:
[quote]
In a report on "War on Terrorism - How to make a martyr ? "
The following observation was made by Israel's defence minister, Benjamin Ben-Eliezer also wondered what motivates suicide bombers.[/color]
"The military actions kindle the frustration, hatred and despair and are the incubator for the terror to come.
The religious and political environment immediately exploits this and dispatches the new suicide bombers and the pattern is repeated." Vulnerable young girls are easy pickings.
"The environment exploits fragile personalities and gets them swept up in a current."
Do I need to assume another nick, that bring the Moderator to question my integrity ?
Or is someone being dishonest in this Speakers' Corner ? -
Yes, hiding their prejudice towards a whole community by disguising their distaste of terrorist and attacking all and sundry in the Community from which the Terrorists come from.Originally posted by SilverPal:Thai and Salman, I do acknowledge that you are both against terrorism, didn't mean to say you guys supported it. Guess my post was somewhat inaccurate and misleading.
'Atobe might be somewhat misguided' ?
I believe that atobe might be somewhat misguided, but he means well, abuses and insults notwithstanding. Proton is the really terrorist supporter. You should go thru his posts and see how he not only justifies terrorism, he actually believes in their cause and shows very strong signs that if given the chance, he would actually join them in killing all non believers, myself included.
Atobe is just miscommunicating with myself and salman. Perhaps instead of hurling abuses, insults and taking a defensive position, making ourselves impervious to reasoning of others, salman and atobe should both take time to understand the points put across by the other. Myself included.
And I'm not too afraid if proton decides to blow up those who opposes him, because I know he'll kill salman first,
'somewhat misguided, but he means well,' ?
Indecision, contradiction, and hesistation to commit to any position in a debate will not help your reputation in public debate.
If you accept my posting as meaning well, how can you also accept and agree with the libellous stand in broad-brushing a whole community as taken by Salman :Originally posted by SilverPal - 21 February 2006 - 11.19PM
How many laid back muslims did you talk with, before forming the opinion that - " The muslims, moderates and otherwise, will do what they always do; they will brush it off as a western propaganda attack, call for more killings of the infidels who malign their faith. " ?
Quote from post by Salman:
I say go for broke. Go for an information war. Bring up the plight of Christians living in Muslim lands for open comparison and demand accountability for persecution. Bring Muslim behaviors up for debate in this small world. Play it up on all the satellites and the airwaves. Take advantage of modern communications. This is what the fanatics fear most.
I will bet you that these fanatics will be under pressure and will surely back down once their lies are exposed so openly. They have no where to run.
Did you notice how Atobe needs to play moderate on this forum?
Zulfikar had to pretend to be moderate too in front of non Muslims. Even Arafat and Hamas needs to pretend to be moderate under western pressure. You getting the idea now?
Response by SilverPal :
Not really. The muslims, moderates and otherwise, will do what they always do; they will brush it off as a western propaganda attack, call for more killings of the infidels who malign their faith.
Once again, american embassies will get destroyed, another catholic priest will get killed and in indonesia, chinese girls will get raped again.
I have tried talking to moderate and laid back muslims about the terrorism and misrepresentation of their religion by a few evil men. They are so ingrained into their way of thinking that, they refuse to listen to any logic and reason. They brush the issue off as christians(ie me) attacking their faith.
I attended an interfaith dialogue between a catholic priest and a muslim cleric in singapore. Both clergymen were asked the same question: what role does religion play in politics?
The priest replied, "Religion and politics do not mix. Politics is ruled by the mind. There are times when deception is used. Deception has no place in our hearts. Religion is ruled by our hearts. We believe that God is watching over us and He performs miracles. We cannot explain these miracles, but we know its from God."
The reply from the cleric, "Politics is about governing our lives. Every aspects of our lives. What to do, what not to do. Religion is the same thing. It tells you what to do, what not to do. Both have rules and laws. Both govern every aspect of our lives. Hence, politics and religion is interwined and cannot be separated."
I was shocked at the sutle meaning from the cleric. The catholic priest believed that mixing politics and religion (from once upon a time in the catholic world) was a bad idea. But the cleric believed that politics without religion is a bad idea!
After that time, I really believed that the muslims want to convert all free countries into muslim countries.
"chinese girls will get raped again " - Are you roping in the events prior to the downfall of Suharto (who were found to be suspiciously instigated by the Indonesian Military led by Suharto's own son-in-law ), to the current events of the bombings by a few political fanatics disguised as religious zealots ?
The Singapore Catholic Church had a serious brush with the Ruling Political Party aka the Singapore Government, and could not bring themselves to honestly say what the Muslim Cleric dare to say about Religion - (and in this context, not necessarily Islam alone) - being the MORAL COMPASS in Political Life.
Without Moderates in any society, can good sense and sensibility exist to bring sanity to society ?
If Moderates are not needed, why do we need any Moderators and their good sense at intervention in this Speakers' Corner ? -
I believe Salman makes some criticisms on Muslim extremist & fanatics.The criticisms are valid ones.
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when the suicide bombers die...they ain't gonna get virgins...thats for sure...
wat they get is the people they killed getting a baseball bat and sharving it up their rectum -
virgin rectum 72 times...
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What virgins?All nonsense!
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No, they get bashed up by 72 Virginians.Originally posted by Thailand_Hero:when the suicide bombers die...they ain't gonna get virgins...thats for sure...
wat they get is the people they killed getting a baseball bat and sharving it up their rectum
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what i meant is their virgin anus get raped 72 times
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Pls don't insult Islam.
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err...i think we're insulting extremist here...wrong channel pal...Originally posted by PRP:Pls don't insult Islam.