GST to be raised to 7%
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But the people who complained are not convinced of the qualities of the government. Touch your heart and tell me again that the minister's pay is truely justified.Originally posted by Mat Toro:The minister's pay are truely justified.
How can our pay rise and not the people who run the country so well?
The GST will help Singapore to be more competitive. The people who complained about it are simply ignorant of fiscal economics.
Fiscal economics you say? Pray tell and explain how it helps, to cure the ignorant of their blindness?
And wasn't the basis of increasing the GST to help the poor? So which is the real reason? Don't explain to me only... explain to all Singaporeans. -
you sound like another of those cronies being sent in here to talk rubbishOriginally posted by Mat Toro:The minister's pay are truely justified.
How can our pay rise and not the people who run the country so well?
The GST will help Singapore to be more competitive. The people who complained about it are simply ignorant of fiscal economics.
since you talk so much about fiscal economics, why don't you enlighten everyone how GST will make Singapore competitive?
Also, pls kindly define "running the country" well, given losses in many investments such as Shin Corp, Suzhou, and screw-ups in health sector such as NKF?
Are you telling me I should give you an A performance grade in your company even when you cause the company to lose millions of dollars due to your 'honest' mistake?
Pls also advise what makes you so sure that everyone's pay is rising? Pls kindly provide proof and statistics. (We HAVE articles that indicate stagnation of middle class income) -
Originally posted by soul_rage:
Why do you accuse and name call just because I have different views from you? We are all entitled to our views my fren.
[b]
you sound like another of those cronies being sent in here to talk rubbish
I am self employed, never worked for the govt.
I am just a third party objective observer. after travelling half the world for many years and seeing how other countries are runned, I do think that the singapore govt is very good.
Its simple. Raise taxes from consumption rather than profits to increase investment and entrepreneurship. Its a fairere tax because it taxes consumption and those who would avoid paying income tax.
since you talk so much about fiscal economics, why don't you enlighten everyone how GST will make Singapore competitive?
Shin Corp and Suzhou didn't lose money if you really look carefully. Even if they did, gains are loses are part of doing business. They certainly have more gains than losses, why do you forget those? You must be fair right?
Also, pls kindly define "running the country" well, given losses in many investments such as Shin Corp, Suzhou, and screw-ups in health sector such as NKF?
As for NKF, its not a govt body.
If you run a small biz with turnover over 1 million, losing thousands is OK but millions is not OK.
Are you telling me I should give you an A performance grade in your company even when you cause the company to lose millions of dollars due to your 'honest' mistake?
But you you run a multi billion set up, losing millions in one or two ventures is not a big issue on that same logic.
How can the country not be well runned when our economy is booming and per capita GDP rising? Please explain.
On the whole, people's pay do increase the last two years.
Pls also advise what makes you so sure that everyone's pay is rising?
I had to give my employees increases as well to keep them. Other employers are no different.
Did you have a pay increase? -
Originally posted by bigmouthjoe:
Was raising the GST suppose to help the poor?
And wasn't the basis of increasing the GST to help the poor? So which is the real reason? Don't explain to me only... explain to all Singaporeans.
Thats may be part of the soultion because the rich will get taxed more with GST and these will be used for subsidies for the poor.
The totality of it is, everybody benefits, especially the poor. -
Originally posted by Mat Toro:Was raising the GST suppose to help the poor?
Thats may be part of the soultion because the rich will get taxed more with GST and these will be used for subsidies for the poor.
The totality of it is, everybody benefits, especially the poor.
There are lots of topics in Speakers Corner. Do feel free to comment on some of them while you are here. Infact there're so many unanswered questions, maybe you can help out in some of those. -
my apologies then. You really do sound like one, rushing in here and firing off 1-liners on how good the govt is.
Why do you accuse and name call just because I have different views from you? We are all entitled to our views my fren.
I am self employed, never worked for the govt.
I am just a third party objective observer. after travelling half the world for many years and seeing how other countries are runned, I do think that the singapore govt is very good.
So which countries did you go to which you used as a gauge that our govt is very good?
It also taxes the dead and the pets that you keep.
Its simple. Raise taxes from consumption rather than profits to increase investment and entrepreneurship. Its a fairere tax because it taxes consumption and those who would avoid paying income tax.
That aside, I agree it might be a fairer tax, PROVIDED that we implement staggered GST rates, which ensure that the rich get taxed more, and the poor don't get taxed for basic goods such as riceShin Corp and Suzhou didn't lose money if you really look carefully. Even if they did, gains are loses are part of doing business. They certainly have more gains than losses, why do you forget those? You must be fair right?
Kindly elaborate on what you mean by they did not lose money if you look carefully.
As for NKF, its not a govt body.
And where else do they gain? I seemed to recall Temasek only has the 3 golden geese of PSA, Singtel and SIA (maybe ST Engr as well)
NKF is not a govt body? Given the no. of people related to the govt inside NKF, yes, they may be legally considered not a govt body, but that's just on the legal side...
Coming back to that, I recalled that our ministers refused to do anything when the backbenchers made enquiries into NKF. So its fair that they pretend and refuse to do anything, when they have the authority to setup checks on charity bodies, and then totaly abstain from responsibility when screw-up happens?If you run a small biz with turnover over 1 million, losing thousands is OK but millions is not OK.
ah... you are committing the very thing that PAP-supporters like to say of other people. When others say that they see on the grounds some issue, PAP-supporters will rush in and say, provide the statistics and proof, coz what you see is only a small sample
But you you run a multi billion set up, losing millions in one or two ventures is not a big issue on that same logic.
How can the country not be well runned when our economy is booming and per capita GDP rising? Please explain.
/quote]
Don't think you understand what I mean. IF you lose money in a company, can you still say you are performing well, and should deserve an "A" grade, coz its just an honest mistake?
Have you heard of cars in 5th gear and not requiring much petrol as it cruised along? You have to differentiate btw the work done to bring Singapore to the 5th gear (the old leaders like Tony Tan, etc), and the current group of jokers now, whom have no credit to their name, and still insisting that they are a good govt, and just running the machinery coz its well oiled.
In a company grading an individual, every year, he must do better, and not just maintain his previous year's performance. Isn't that the norm?
[quote]On the whole, people's pay do increase the last two years.
I had to give my employees increases as well to keep them. Other employers are no different.
Did you have a pay increase?
So I can reverse that on you, and say that your company is a negligible part of the sample size. Pls provide more proof on why you think, on the whole, people's pay increased, when analysts reported that the middle income has stagnated.
And I am different. My pay scale has jumped coz I am truly valued by my current company, and I am in their consultant scale. -
Isnt' that what Lee Hsien Loong said? GST was to help the poorOriginally posted by Mat Toro:Was raising the GST suppose to help the poor?
Thats may be part of the soultion because the rich will get taxed more with GST and these will be used for subsidies for the poor.
The totality of it is, everybody benefits, especially the poor. -
All over Asia, Europe and north America.
my apologies then. You really do sound like one, rushing in here and firing off 1-liners on how good the govt is.
So which countries did you go to which you used as a gauge that our govt is very good?
The dead and cats don't spend money, how are they taxed?
It also taxes the dead and the pets that you keep.
The rich do get taxed more because they spend more. They are already paying progessive income tax on top of that.
That aside, I agree it might be a fairer tax, PROVIDED that we implement staggered GST rates, which ensure that the rich get taxed more, and the poor don't get taxed for basic goods such as rice
I agree with you on the necessities part but we don't consume so much rice to begin with. How much can the poor save by not being taxed on rice?
Suzhou made money, though not as much as we wished for.
Kindly elaborate on what you mean by they did not lose money if you look carefully.
Shin corp isn't sold yet, how could we have lost money?
Temasek own these companies but did not invest in them.
And where else do they gain? I seemed to recall Temasek only has the 3 golden geese of PSA, Singtel and SIA (maybe ST Engr as well).
The real investments go into bonds, metals and equities and companies all over the world though not necessarily high profile.
Related to the govt? Who? How?
NKF is not a govt body? Given the no. of people related to the govt inside NKF, yes, they may be legally considered not a govt body, but that's just on the legal side...
So what are they doing now?
Coming back to that, I recalled that our ministers refused to do anything when the backbenchers made enquiries into NKF. So its fair that they pretend and refuse to do anything, when they have the authority to setup checks on charity bodies, and then totaly abstain from responsibility when screw-up happens?
you gain on some deals, you lose on some deals.
Don't think you understand what I mean. IF you lose money in a company, can you still say you are performing well, and should deserve an "A" grade, coz its just an honest mistake?
Overall we gained. Can you say we get F grade?
From what you just said, I know you don't have business experience.
Have you heard of cars in 5th gear and not requiring much petrol as it cruised along? You have to differentiate btw the work done to bring Singapore to the 5th gear (the old leaders like Tony Tan, etc), and the current group of jokers now, whom have no credit to their name, and still insisting that they are a good govt, and just running the machinery coz its well oiled.
Maintaining a big business is not a easy thing.
Competition is much tougher now than Tony's days. Please wake up and smell the coffee.
We are doing better than ever. the economy is booming.
In a company grading an individual, every year, he must do better, and not just maintain his previous year's performance. Isn't that the norm?
When it comes to fact, there is no running away.
ah... you are committing the very thing that PAP-supporters like to say of other people. When others say that they see on the grounds some issue, PAP-supporters will rush in and say, provide the statistics and proof, coz what you see is only a small sample
Can you argue based on facts my fren?
Did you get a pay rise over the last two years?
Overall boomed.
So I can reverse that on you, and say that your company is a negligible part of the sample size. Pls provide more proof on why you think, on the whole, people's pay increased, when analysts reported that the middle income has stagnated.
Thats why there are so many condos out there. Please open your eyes sir.
Good for you.
And I am different. My pay scale has jumped coz I am truly valued by my current company, and I am in their consultant scale.
Did you give more to the poor? -
All over Asia, Europe and north America.
That's not sufficient then. I have been to Asia, Europe and America as well, and no, I don't think our govt's doing a good job
I can see then you are not a filial person. The dead is taxed for the money we burn, and the pets are taxed for the cat food we buy.
quote:
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It also taxes the dead and the pets that you keep.
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The dead and cats don't spend money, how are they taxed?
Sorry, don't tell me they are taxing us. Its as good as telling us we should not buy incense money for our loved ones that passed away coz its our fault we want to incur such taxesThe rich do get taxed more because they spend more. They are already paying progessive income tax on top of that.
we are discussing about GST, don't bring in other items that will confuse everyone.
I agree with you on the necessities part but we don't consume so much rice to begin with. How much can the poor save by not being taxed on rice?
By your statement above, it shows you are the same as LHL, totally disconnected from reality.
Every cent saved by the poor is very impt to them, for it is a larger percentage compared to your pay.Suzhou made money, though not as much as we wished for.
how much did they make?
Shin corp isn't sold yet, how could we have lost money?
Shin Corp? Are you going to tell me their stock will rise to the same level we paid for? If you are telling me, then I can see you did not learn much from your businessTemasek own these companies but did not invest in them.
I don't recall Temasek making transparent their investments. So where did you get this data?
The real investments go into bonds, metals and equities and companies all over the world though not necessarily high profile.
if you had read the news (which I presume you din since you sound so ignorant), you would know who
NKF is not a govt body? Given the no. of people related to the govt inside NKF, yes, they may be legally considered not a govt body, but that's just on the legal side...
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Related to the govt? Who? How?
So what are they doing now? why don't u tell me? I already said they are abstaining from responsibility, so tell me otherwise.
Coming back to that, I recalled that our ministers refused to do anything when the backbenchers made enquiries into NKF. So its fair that they pretend and refuse to do anything, when they have the authority to setup checks on charity bodies, and then totaly abstain from responsibility when screw-up happens?
So what are they doing now?
you don't have the data to come to that conclusion since I recall Temasek does not reveal its investments.
you gain on some deals, you lose on some deals.
Overall we gained. Can you say we get F grade?
So again, this is your imagination.From what you just said, I know you don't have business experience.
from the above, I see that you have not learnt much from your business at all.
Maintaining a big business is not a easy thing.
Competition is much tougher now than Tony's days. Please wake up and smell the coffee.
Our dear leaders have many people to maintain the machinery for that.
You are a small time business boss, I take it you don't understand this, since you have to do the toilet cleaning yourself
If you still DO NOT understand what it means by proper delegation such that the boss does not need to do everything himself, and ensuring a proper process in place so that the business does not collapse JUST BECOZ the boss is not around, then I refer you to Donald Trump's take on why bosses should learn how to delegate.
Don't waste time telling me you are a smartass just coz you run your own small business. That doesn't prove that you know anything about business.
The global economy is booming. If we are not booming, that's unforgivable
We are doing better than ever. the economy is booming.
pls provide proof, you are just speculating based on condos. There are a lot of foreign investors.
So I can reverse that on you, and say that your company is a negligible part of the sample size. Pls provide more proof on why you think, on the whole, people's pay increased, when analysts reported that the middle income has stagnated.
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Overall boomed.
Thats why there are so many condos out there. Please open your eyes sir.
Pls open ur heartGood for you.
honestly, whether I give more or not is none of your business. Please go back to the original debate.
Did you give more to the poor? -
I enjoy smacking people that think they know alot just becoz they run their own petty business.
from the above, I see that you have not learnt much from your business at all.
Our dear leaders have many people to maintain the machinery for that.
You are a small time business boss, I take it you don't understand this, since you have to do the toilet cleaning yourself
If you still DO NOT understand what it means by proper delegation such that the boss does not need to do everything himself, and ensuring a proper process in place so that the business does not collapse JUST BECOZ the boss is not around, then I refer you to Donald Trump's take on why bosses should learn how to delegate.
Don't waste time telling me you are a smartass just coz you run your own small business. That doesn't prove that you know anything about business.
Let me tell you something. If you find yourself day in day out, slogging like shit to ensure your business is running on a profitable level, it only means one thing.
your business is NOT optimized.
Don't even try insulting me, coz I do business consultation for my company, and I deliver the results.
So in future, before you even start blowing your mouth away insulting someone, do a self-reflection on what you know first. You may not know enough to withstand the backlash. -
Originally posted by soul_rage:
You must be blinded my fren. who then is doing a good job?
That's not sufficient then. I have been to Asia, Europe and America as well, and no, I don't think our govt's doing a good job
Correction. You spend, not the dead & cat spend.
I can see then you are not a filial person. The dead is taxed for the money we burn, and the pets are taxed for the cat food we buy.
Sorry, don't tell me they are taxing us. Its as good as telling us we should not buy incense money for our loved ones that passed away coz its our fault we want to incur such taxes
Weren't you the guy who brought up tax on necessities first?
we are discussing about GST, don't bring in other items that will confuse everyone.
You are wrong. The govt meet the people regularly, you don't.
By your statement above, it shows you are the same as LHL, totally disconnected from reality.
So what did you do the help the poor in singapore? The govt subsidised them so much, what did you do to help?
Every cent saved by the poor is very impt to them, for it is a larger percentage compared to your pay.
how much did we lose then?
how much did they make?
So have we lost anything yet?
Shin Corp? Are you going to tell me their stock will rise to the same level we paid for? If you are telling me, then I can see you did not learn much from your business
Why can't the stock increase in the future? Are you sure you know business?
So where did you get the data that they did a bad job?
I don't recall Temasek making transparent their investments. So where did you get this data?
Who? How? In what way? Please justify your claim.
if you had read the news (which I presume you din since you sound so ignorant), you would know who
Didn't they reign in NKF and made it accountable and put the guilty on trial?
So what are they doing now? why don't u tell me? I already said they are abstaining from responsibility, so tell me otherwise.
So how did you come to the conclusion they got an F?
you don't have the data to come to that conclusion since I recall Temasek does not reveal its investments.
Aren't you contradicting yourself already? Ahahahahahahaha......................
So your point is? You cannot delegate?
If you still DO NOT understand what it means by proper delegation such that the boss does not need to do everything himself, and ensuring a proper process in place so that the business does not collapse JUST BECOZ the boss is not around, then I refer you to Donald Trump's take on why bosses should learn how to delegate.
Grew it from scratch and now turnover of about 10 milion. Definitely more exerience than you buddy.
Don't waste time telling me you are a smartass just coz you run your own small business. That doesn't prove that you know anything about business.
Not true. europe stagnates. Even msia and thailand isn't doing too well.
The global economy is booming. If we are not booming, that's unforgivable
Honestly, i think you gave pittance or even nothing.
honestly, whether I give more or not is none of your business. Please go back to the original debate.
Its typical of people who complain a lot.
If you claim that the govt is not taking care of the poor, i can tell you that they do infinitely more for the poor than you.
Please don't be a hypocrite my fren, there is nothing to stop us from giving oe helping the poor with our money. -
you really believe that?Originally posted by Mat Toro:Was raising the GST suppose to help the poor?
Thats may be part of the soultion because the rich will get taxed more with GST and these will be used for subsidies for the poor.
The totality of it is, everybody benefits, especially the poor.
the gst increase affects all people, rich and poor.
if the purpose is to tax the rich and subsidise the poor all they need to do is increase the income tax of those with big earning power. -
Originally posted by Mat Toro:The minister's pay are truely justified.
How can our pay rise and not the people who run the country so well?
Middle income earners in Singapore are stagnating, what more the low income. Are you not aware of this? I have to disagree with your sweeping statement of "our pay rise".
Run the country well?
Yes, we have clean roads, orderly citizens, efficient transport systems etc but do explain:
1) high HDB prices which eat into Singaporeans' CPF. Ng Eng Hen was quoted as saying recently that only 40% of Singaporeans meet the minimum sum upon age 55. And Mah Bow Tan still has not come clean on the breakdown of HDB costs when questioned by a member of the opposition in last year's election.
2) the 3Ms safety net as mentioned by Khaw Boon Wan: Medisave, Medifund and Medishield. Safety nets indeed, albeit extremely frail ones despite all the recent revamps.
3) intention to remove withdrawal of CPF option at age 55 by 2013 if one cannot meet the minimum sum
4) to increase retirement age to 65 when life expectancy of Singaporeans (at birth) is still below age 82. Lim Boon Heng shot himself in the foot as evident here (refer to link below).
5) rising gini coefficient despite the sizzling economy growth every quarter. Comtrast this with Japan, Luxembourg, Finland and New Zealand.
http://www.sgforums.com/?action=thread_display&thread_id=264168
Perhaps you can read this article and judge if ministers really deserve their pay rise:
Questionable benchmarking formula
Posted by theonlinecitizen on April 6th, 2007
This is filed under “Letters To TOC”.
Firstly, I cannot understand or accept the PMÂ’s and MMÂ’s logic or rationale for the incredible pay hike for our cabinet ministers.
Why do they want us to believe that our cabinet ministers are that avaricious, corruptible, self-serving and mercenary, and so open to the highest bidders?
In justifying the astronomical pay for our cabinet ministers the PM and MM use the arbitrary - and questionable - device of benchmarking their pay with the top earners in the top professions, including, I understand, top CEOs.
Have they considered this point: the top pay cited for top CEO or top professional in the private sector was only for the top honcho, i.e. only for the head of the corporation or practice, and not for everyone of his managers.
In that case and by the same token, only the Prime Minister of Singapore Inc. should be treated as the CEO or top dog of the business and be given such excessive remuneration.
The other ministers, being heads of department in Singapore Inc., should, therefore, be given salaries/perks commensurate with that of Singapore IncÂ’s heads of department.
The Spore GovtÂ’s benchmarking formula - and application - therefore appears tenuous, to put it mildly. If it is really justifiable, then it must logically follow that every head of dept in an Exxon-type of corporation would, therefore, be paid like the chairman of Exxon.
Yeo Toon Joo
http://theonlinecitizen.com/2007/04/06/questionable-benchmarking-formula/[/color] -
Originally posted by Mat Toro:The GST will help Singapore to be more competitive. The people who complained about it are simply ignorant of fiscal economics.
Competitive such that lower corporate taxes will encourage investments and entrepreneurship? I do not disagree with that. However, in what way does that increase the average joe's salary? How does it reduce the gini coefficient?
Was raising the GST suppose to help the poor?
Thats may be part of the soultion because the rich will get taxed more with GST and these will be used for subsidies for the poor.
The totality of it is, everybody benefits, especially the poor.
That was what LHL said. Till date, we still have not seen any concrete plans on how it helps the poor, except only saying that GST revenue will "go into workfare". If they were really sincere, then this notion should have been broached during the GST debate in parliament a while back.
Fyi, this is workfare:
FACT SHEET ON WORKFARE BONUS SCHEME (WBS) 2007
The amount of Workfare Bonus is based on the worker's average monthly income for the period worked in the year.
Average Monthly Income ---> Bonus to be paid* (per year)
$400 and below ---> 1.5 months salary, or $75, whichever is higher
Above $400 to $900 ---> $600
Above $900 to $1,200 ---> $400
Above $1,200 to $1,500 ---> $200
http://www.mom.gov.sg/publish/momportal/en/press_room/press_releases/2007/20070130-declarations.html#Factsheet
The money given is paltry and certainly not of much help.
For a start, to help the poor, the govt may want to consider the points from this article:
More than just money needed to help poor
Posted by theonlinecitizen on July 15th, 2007
This is TOC writer Leong Sze HianÂ’s letter to The New Paper which was published on the 14th of July, 2007.
I refer to the article ‘Would you work 2 shifts over 14 hours for $4.90 an hour?’ (The New Paper, 6 Jul) and the recent launch of the Centre for Social Development (Asia) at NUS.
Helping the poor is not so much about giving money or assistance to them. The most important areas that the poor need help in are, in order of priority:
1. Reduce the risk of losing their HDB flat and lifetime CPF savings, in the event of foreclosure by the HDB or banks.
Lower-income Singaporeans have a much higher probability of defaulting on the typical 30-year mortgage.
2. Restrain the rise in prices of basic necessities like utilities, transport, HDB rental and Service and Conservancy Charges (S&CC).
For example, water, gas and electricity rose by 8.6, 4.2 and 2.8 per cent per annum from 1995 to 2005. Transport fares have risen almost every year, in recent years. All these increases were much higher than the 1 per cent rate of inflation.
3. Review the way subsidies for the poor really work for them.
For example, the $20 transport voucher for the lower-income is a one-time offset against fare increases for just one year only. So, to truly offset the increases occurring almost every year over the last 5 years or so, transport vouchers should be increasing at, say, $20 a year too.
4. Level the playing field between foreigners and Singaporeans in lower-income jobs.
Employers save 13% by not having to contribute to CPF for non-residents; lower-wage non-residents have reduced turnover problems because they are stuck with the same employer for 3 years.
On the other hand, male residents have to go for reservist training, and residents have less disposable income because they have to contribute to CPF.
It may thus be harder for residents to accept lower-wage jobs to be able to provide for their families.
Unless the above are addressed comprehensively, the trend of declining real income and relative higher inflation rates for the lower-income group may continue to widen the income and wealth gap.
That is because they are chasing after a standard of living target that keeps running further away from them.
http://theonlinecitizen.com/2007/07/15/more-than-just-money-needed-to-help-poor/#more-385 -
Mat Toro,
your posts smack of an unnerving disconnect from reality. Surely Singaporeans deserve better.
I certainly hope you have taken the trouble to go through all that I have posted, including all the links pasted. It may help you understand better....unless tunnel vision prevails. -
you know, I can continue on and on about how stupid you look thinking that 10 million is a lot of money.
Grew it from scratch and now turnover of about 10 milion. Definitely more exerience than you buddy.
and I can go on and on giving you a lot of information on the things you question that I put up. But I don't think I want to waste time coz you are adamant the govt is a good govt.
so all I want to tell you is very simple. The way you post in your postings, shows how much you are disconnected from the people, and you belong to the category whom think that just coz they have a turnover of 10 million, they are 'elites' and are above the rest, and can behave arrogantly and tell those that suffer to shut up and earn peanuts.
I am very positive as well you mistreat your employees, and you pay them very little, and milk them dry of their time, coz you don't treat them as people.
Either way, let's not waste time, since I don't think you are fit talking to me as your 10 million is nothing to what I see everyday. *shrugs*
As I said, if you work like s**t to maintain your business, then you are not doing it right. You are just one of the many bosses whom work almost 24 hours a day with no life. In that case, I really wonder what you live for
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To Mat Toro:
in regards to paying the dead, there is a thing which i learn in insurance
ESTATE PLANNING . you have to pay taxes for the dead also til nw is not abolished yet.....
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*shakes head*
this guy has a very asian mentality
he thinks that the correct business is for a boss to be indispensable, when in fact, the correct method of business is to build in processes so that the business can run successfully at an almost automated level (unless change is in the plans)
The best businesses are built to survive catastrophes, such as the loss of a great leader, or leaders, or managers.
He doesn't understand all these, preferring to take the incorrect asian approach to think that the boss is the biggest, rather than ensuring the business is the one that should survive the times, with or without him
Selfish selfish selfish *shakes head* -
What can we see here?
Its is clear that the anti govt crowd is not a tolerant lot. They cannot respect opposing views. They are not interested in a debate of ideas but simply condemn and put down people who hold divergent views. They even make claims that I cannot manage my company w/o any basis at all.
I am convinced that these people can never compete in the arena of ideas. Thats why they need to resort to such tactics. Same like Chee soon Juan. -
Wow, nice sweeping statements once again.Originally posted by Mat Toro:What can we see here?
Its is clear that the anti govt crowd is not a tolerant lot. They cannot respect opposing views. They are not interested in a debate of ideas but simply condemn and put down people who hold divergent views. They even make claims that I cannot manage my company w/o any basis at all.
I am convinced that these people can never compete in the arena of ideas. Thats why they need to resort to such tactics. Same like Chee soon Juan.
Do not hide under the facade that 'the anti-govt is not a tolerant lot' when I believe you cannot even stand firm on your own debate.
Do not gloss over your own inability to accept opposing views by declaring the same of others.
Do not be 'convinced that these people can never compete in the arena of ideas' for your arguments are hardly in any sense compelling.
I'm not sure about the others but prior to this, have I put you down in any way? Unless you choose to feel so due to your own inaptness. I was awaiting your reply to my posts but you chose to end it this way. -
If you followed the discussion, you will notice that I presented reason, facts and logic while these anti govt guys presented extremes and emotions.
The moment they got stuck, they start personal attacks, name calling and speculative accusations w/o any basis.
Are you one of those anti govt folksy? -
Why did I put you down?Originally posted by Mat Toro:What can we see here?
Its is clear that the anti govt crowd is not a tolerant lot. They cannot respect opposing views. They are not interested in a debate of ideas but simply condemn and put down people who hold divergent views. They even make claims that I cannot manage my company w/o any basis at all.
I am convinced that these people can never compete in the arena of ideas. Thats why they need to resort to such tactics. Same like Chee soon Juan.
Have you ever thought about what you said? You started off with offensive remarks, and boast about your turnover
since you want to play the ball of thinking just coz you do business = you are an elite, I simply wish to correct the misconception you put up.
You behave as if you know a lot about your business, so I simply am replying you that you don't know yourself a lot.
The whole thing above started from how you praise our govt, and our leaders for leading a well-oiled machinery.
I merely replied to you that, if you find that as a boss, you are working 24 hours and have no life, then obviously you have learnt nothing.
Our system is so good, that even if all our leaders disappear tomorrow, the administration can still continue without any problems. That is something which I commend the PAP, for putting a system in place such that Singapore does not depend on its leaders (ie catastrophe if leaders get wiped up)
You want to take the opposite view, you gotta support your view.
And by the way, turnover of 10 million doesn't mean anything. You could have operating expenses of 20 million, and you are making a loss of 10 million every year. -
Yes, you do give me the impression that you are rational in thought.Originally posted by Mat Toro:If you followed the discussion, you will notice that I presented reason, facts and logic while these anti govt guys presented extremes and emotions.
The moment they got stuck, they start personal attacks, name calling and speculative accusations w/o any basis.
Are you one of those anti govt folksy?
Then please do answer my posts to you. -
you asked me, and made remarks about my business. I wasn't boasting, I am only telling you the truth.
You then went on to say that my management is no good w/o any basis at all.
Why lower your discussion to such a level? How does that benefit you?
Why are you so intolerant of other people's views? -
Are you ready for rational and civilised debate?Originally posted by Rock^Star:Yes, you do give me the impression that you are rational in thought.
Then please do answer my posts to you.