LYK challenged Singaporeans that we can't live without them?
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I have no objection to public demonstrations provided that they do not disrupt business or traffic. If you want to book the indoor stadium and hold a demonstration inside, I have no objection. But if you want to hold a demonstration in the streets, why should I suffer from traffic jams and disruptions to businesses?Originally posted by (human):The power of the nation ought to be returned to the people. The rule of obtaining a permit for demonstration must first be abolished. How many people here feel that getting permit to go demonstration is absurd and which is against human rights? It is like you are angry and you are asking “We are angry we want a license to show we are angry."
The law can be changed to allow indoor demonstrations. If you want to allow outdoor demonstrations, we must have security forces in place to ensure things do not get out of hand and traffic has to be regulated. The organizers of outdoor demonstrations must pay the cost of maintaining order and security. I will support outdoor demonstrations only if the organizers pay CISCO or some private security firms to maintain order. If the police has to be involved, the organizers must be made to pay for their time. It is not right that the costs of holding such events be passed on to the taxpayer. -
Originally posted by kengkia:
Ehh.. sounds just about right! Oh yah, forgot to say.. Capital punishment should be "whole family put to death". If u commit the very grave crime of being an opposition politician, all ur close relatives sure kena one way or another de... 'wan sui ye' will make sure of it, man!
IT'S VERY VERY AND VERY ABSURD TO GAIN PERMIT FOR DEMO!!!i am feeling like living in a country describe in following.....
Country full name : [b]Empire of Singapore
Country head of state(emperor obviuosly) : Lee Kuan Yew
Country premier :Lee Hsien Loong
Capital punishment : Beheading(not hanging)
Kind of government : Absolute Monarchy
Numbers of Eunuch in imperial palace of sg : 5000
number of harem lky(hou gong jia li) owned : 2 million plus
% of nation wealth in imperial household : 99.999%
numbers of slaves : 2 million plus
.......all at the expense of all populace of sg all the men being slaves and all the women become harems/concubines of lky
[/b]
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ahaha like those ancient chinese shows... ''chu sa jiu zhu'' !!!
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Well, I'm quite sure you'll change your mind if one day you are jailed for something you didn't do, and your friends/family wanted to bring you justice b staging a loud, traffic-jamming street demo. I do not like traffic jams that are caused by street demos either; but I will tolerate them because one day, the reason for a street demo may actually be for something I believe in.Originally posted by oxford mushroom:I have no objection to public demonstrations provided that they do not disrupt business or traffic. If you want to book the indoor stadium and hold a demonstration inside, I have no objection. But if you want to hold a demonstration in the streets, why should I suffer from traffic jams and disruptions to businesses?
The law can be changed to allow indoor demonstrations. If you want to allow outdoor demonstrations, we must have security forces in place to ensure things do not get out of hand and traffic has to be regulated. The organizers of outdoor demonstrations must pay the cost of maintaining order and security. I will support outdoor demonstrations only if the organizers pay CISCO or some private security firms to maintain order. If the police has to be involved, the organizers must be made to pay for their time. It is not right that the costs of holding such events be passed on to the taxpayer. -
As a hardcore PAP supporter, I see that you are practising the same thing as the govt, ie selectively fighting your fights. You do not address concerns which you may have no answer for, and only those that you think you know.Originally posted by oxford mushroom:I have no objection to public demonstrations provided that they do not disrupt business or traffic. If you want to book the indoor stadium and hold a demonstration inside, I have no objection. But if you want to hold a demonstration in the streets, why should I suffer from traffic jams and disruptions to businesses?
The law can be changed to allow indoor demonstrations. If you want to allow outdoor demonstrations, we must have security forces in place to ensure things do not get out of hand and traffic has to be regulated. The organizers of outdoor demonstrations must pay the cost of maintaining order and security. I will support outdoor demonstrations only if the organizers pay CISCO or some private security firms to maintain order. If the police has to be involved, the organizers must be made to pay for their time. It is not right that the costs of holding such events be passed on to the taxpayer.
your comments above are all assumptions. Who told you that public demonstrations will result in traffic jams and disruptions to businesses?
No one asked you to change the law such that there is utter lawlessness in demonstrations. It can be changed to demonstrations that do not cause any damage or problems. If they do, then the organizer is liable. -
opps
....MIW spy alert -
Did u c Geylang traffic jam at 9 cauuz someone is selling his backs there mah!!!!Originally posted by soul_rage:As a hardcore PAP supporter, I see that you are practising the same thing as the govt, ie selectively fighting your fights. You do not address concerns which you may have no answer for, and only those that you think you know.
your comments above are all assumptions. Who told you that public demonstrations will result in traffic jams and disruptions to businesses?
No one asked you to change the law such that there is utter lawlessness in demonstrations. It can be changed to demonstrations that do not cause any damage or problems. If they do, then the organizer is liable.
Do u the guy????? -
u all think the MPs and our civil servants are given too high a pay...?well u sorry bunch of idiots who think that are the ones who will fall for the corruption temptations when they come...they work their ass off and keep their mouth shut to keep secrets of singapore safe..
corruption is a serious problem in the other countries...and if it ever happens in singapore on a large scale...u idiots will be sweeping the floor and paying tons more for all ur GST and Taxes...and there won't be peaceful life in singapore...
stock markets and indexes will raise and fall like the water in ur freak toilet bowl flush...everytime someone likes it..he will flush and the water will drop like rock from the sky...shooting like an meteorite and hit the bare ground in seconds..and it will take a long time to restore...and u can expect the next flush coming anytime soon...
u expect the economy to improve like that...?u can go and pick rubbish and eat them as breakfast liao...
u wan everything free...?then u no need to work..?then no tax to pay the government..?no GDP..?no improvements...?u are juz lazy...
think if no prices increase...and the onli thing that increases is ur salary...businesses will start going bankrupt and u will have no job..?er...and u will be back in the vicious rural cycle again..u wanna plant corn for a living or sit in the office and enjoy the aircon..?
y the government increases the GST and prices tags but not increase the pay..?coz the government needs u to improve urself too..push urself and u can make more money...if u expect urself not to improve and juz keep getting pay increase...pls go somewhere else and plant corn...or rice..?or fruits..?that suits u better..?
if u wan the nation to improve on a whole..everyone has to improve themselves too...in sense of education..knowledge..abilities...pls answer the question on how the nation can improve if people continue to remain stagnant on where they are..?
if u think that china is good...pls understand that we have passed that era...and we have passed the stage of development where they are in...we are in a stage of development where all first world countries have been through...so if u like the stage where china is in..pls go there...china will reach our stage someday too...then u can go on to africa...?then u can start ur own country if u think africa has passed that stage too...
u guys should juz remember...the people makes up the nation...without u...there is no nation...if u improve...the nation improve...if the nation improve..ur life will improve too...but if the nation becomes a piece of junk...the people becomes junk too...
i hope you are not related to OM. because u r much worse.
if you care to read carefully, none of us are asking freebies from PAP, it the PAP who twist opposition words and misquoted singaporean feelings.
can singaporean improve better by offering retrench workers courses how to make a bread, sweep the floor? so that the FT can come in at cheaper cost and take their jobs?
anyway, dont really understand what you trying to type. i dont bother anyway. just another no brainer in my opinion. -
Most people have been depoliticised, and do not feel the fervour of people who are passionate for a cause.
This passion is clearly lacking, and cannot be engineered to suit certain industries. This is the reality that the government cannot see. -
Tell me one outdoor demonstration in the west that does not require a police presence or traffic diversions. Even a small scale protest at a naval base in the UK costs 200,000 GBP (S$600k) each! (http://thescotsman.scotsman.com/index.cfm?id=237632005)Originally posted by soul_rage:As a hardcore PAP supporter, I see that you are practising the same thing as the govt, ie selectively fighting your fights. You do not address concerns which you may have no answer for, and only those that you think you know.
your comments above are all assumptions. Who told you that public demonstrations will result in traffic jams and disruptions to businesses?
No one asked you to change the law such that there is utter lawlessness in demonstrations. It can be changed to demonstrations that do not cause any damage or problems. If they do, then the organizer is liable.
Protest all you want indoors...but it is not right to use taxpayer's money to facilitate your demonstrations and protests. -
can singaporean improve better by offering retrench workers courses how to make a bread, sweep the floor? so that the FT can come in at cheaper cost and take their jobs?
You are being disingenuous here. Upgrading courses that train Singaporeans how to operate machinery that will clean roads more efficienctly than just using a broom will increase the productivity and allows employers to pay them better. FT can and will compete for jobs...that is a fact of globalisation. The way to respond to it is by increasing our competitiveness, not by ranting here.
anyway, dont really understand what you trying to type. i dont bother anyway. just another no brainer in my opinion.
Helping employed Singaporeans get a job cleaning the streets at $800 a month is still better than being unemployed. With job re-engineering and training, road sweepers can get up to $1k a month, according to a previous Straits Times report. It is not much, but it is better than relying on charity. -
Maybe it's a cheaper alternative for the demonstrators to protest in the comfort of their own homes??? They can march from room to room holding placards and shouting slogans.Originally posted by oxford mushroom:I have no objection to public demonstrations provided that they do not disrupt business or traffic. If you want to book the indoor stadium and hold a demonstration inside, I have no objection. But if you want to hold a demonstration in the streets, why should I suffer from traffic jams and disruptions to businesses?
The law can be changed to allow indoor demonstrations. If you want to allow outdoor demonstrations, we must have security forces in place to ensure things do not get out of hand and traffic has to be regulated. The organizers of outdoor demonstrations must pay the cost of maintaining order and security. I will support outdoor demonstrations only if the organizers pay CISCO or some private security firms to maintain order. If the police has to be involved, the organizers must be made to pay for their time. It is not right that the costs of holding such events be passed on to the taxpayer.
Hehehe
You never cease to amuse me!!!
Demonstrating in the streets does not equate to standing in the middle of the road blocking all traffic. Don't you know that there are walkways in Singapore. If they block traffic, the police have every right to charge them for traffic violations. When all they do is stand in some public place to voice out their opinions on certain issues, without violating any common law, I don't think the government should restrict that.
Pay security force to maintain order for a peaceful protest? You are already prejudicial to the public demonstrators. What makes you think that the demonstrators will break the law in the first place? Are all the doctors like you? It's scary. I am developing a phobia of doctors, I think I'd better self medicate if it's so. -
like that there's no hope for sg polictics di rite....see it this way should any opp take over govt successfully....they will use the same methods MIWs did to keep themselves in power one....for mr chiam and workers's party .....pls note they are not in power not in govt b4.....their attitude/thinking might change once they gain power....Originally posted by LazerLordz:Well, the technical privileges of being in power. The greatest fear is that should another party take over, they might just use these very same institutions to stay in power. -
Chiam and the WP are alright, as you can see their manifestos and values.Originally posted by kengkia:like that there's no hope for sg polictics di rite....see it this way should any opp take over govt successfully....they will use the same methods MIWs did to keep themselves in power one....for mr chiam and workers's party .....pls note they are not in power not in govt b4.....their attitude/thinking might change once they gain power....
The challenge here is to build institutions independant and strong enough to ensure that power is not concentrated in one party's hands for too long a period of time.
It's not gonna be easy.. -
*shrugs* and why would other countries' demonstration matter?Originally posted by oxford mushroom:Tell me one outdoor demonstration in the west that does not require a police presence or traffic diversions. Even a small scale protest at a naval base in the UK costs 200,000 GBP (S$600k) each! (http://thescotsman.scotsman.com/index.cfm?id=237632005)
Protest all you want indoors...but it is not right to use taxpayer's money to facilitate your demonstrations and protests.
Just becoz people s**t in their pants when doing something doesn't mean you should follow suit when doing that same thing.
For eg. since we are going to allow demonstrations, then its nice to first set the few rules (no violence, no arson, no vandalism, etc). Police need only blacklist those demonstration organizers that can't control the crowd so that next time, they won't be able to demonstrate.
The point is, if you want to let something happen, you can always work on ways of minimizing pain. The way you respond is like our govt. A BIG NO. Quote a few examples, say we cannot let that happen, FINISH.
Life is not utopia. If we want to allow something to work, then we must lay down the ground rules. -
Also, so if we don't use the taxpayer's money in handling demonstrations and protests, then you mean its better to pay high pay to our ministers, a pay which they don't deserve?Originally posted by oxford mushroom:Tell me one outdoor demonstration in the west that does not require a police presence or traffic diversions. Even a small scale protest at a naval base in the UK costs 200,000 GBP (S$600k) each! (http://thescotsman.scotsman.com/index.cfm?id=237632005)
Protest all you want indoors...but it is not right to use taxpayer's money to facilitate your demonstrations and protests.
I am putting it bluntly to you. The current leadership is being paid high pay for mediocre performance. I am being forced to pay for mediocre performance.
Take for eg, we have approx 20 ministers and on avg, they each earn 100k, our nation's bleeding an average of $2,000,000.00 a mth. And that's not counting the ministers of state and the MPs. Such a small country, so high costs.
You may talk about high pay = better integrity = less corruption, but, as one forumlite said, integrity is not to be talked about in money terms in the 1st place. Paying them high pay to ensure minimal corruption is akin to as the forumlite said, paying me during an examination to ensure I don't cheat. What logic is that? -
so the govt is saying that if they don pay so high salary to ministers, they will be susceptible to corruption => attack on the ministers' integrity =>equivalent to saying dat by nature they r dishonest?
then how can dishonest pple lead the pple of s'pore
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u know, for me, on a personal view, they are overly paid. Each one of them earns 5 figures to 6 figures, when the average Singaporeans are earning only 1.5k to 4k a month (according to middle-income statistics). This to me, is too skewed, and causes a lot of unhappiness to Singaporeans.Originally posted by forumer84:so the govt is saying that if they don pay so high salary to ministers, they will be susceptible to corruption => attack on the ministers' integrity =>equivalent to saying dat by nature they r dishonest?
then how can dishonest pple lead the pple of s'pore
Increase 2% GST. To them its nothing much, coz they are paid so well anyway. But give those that only earn middle-income pay, its really horrible.
In the US, many politicians enter politics not coz of money, but for an ideal. many of them are multi-millionaires, and some like the New York mayor, is working for $1 a month. If they give up their political jobs, they can easily go back to a high pay job.
For our case, I ask you, how many ministers can earn the same income of their current ministerial posts, if they should step down?
Ultimately, if I can suggest, cutting their pay to 25k/mth (peanuts to someone), is acceptable. The remaining monies (75k per person), can be used to really help the poor. -
catch-22.Originally posted by forumer84:so the govt is saying that if they don pay so high salary to ministers, they will be susceptible to corruption => attack on the ministers' integrity =>equivalent to saying dat by nature they r dishonest?
then how can dishonest pple lead the pple of s'pore -
Chicken and the egg?Originally posted by LazerLordz:catch-22. 
Indeed. -
1) British allow street protest.Originally posted by maurizio13:British democracy??
Nowadays British don't allow street protest meh? If workers want to strike, need to apply permit or not? Newspaper controlled by Conservative, Labour or Liberal? If want to speak publicly must apply license?
2) Striking workers don't need to apply permit, but they need to prove that they have a legitimate grieviance. It's but of the Thatcher reforms in the 1970s. And guess who Thatcher admired?
3) Newspaper not controlled by any party directly. But each particular newspaper is owned by a boss who is an active patron of one of the parties.
4) Don't need to apply license to speak publicly. -
Project Work? GP?Originally posted by soul_rage:let me see
aside from your normal 4 A level subjects, I think you have S papers, where you can get more As. In my time, its 6 A's max, now I wonder what is the 7th A.
But that aside, I find it so childish after I started work, that we whine so much about the results. There are so many other things that can determine your success in life. Thinking back, I cried coz I missed my 1st class by 0.001, I think I am also being childish.
In the end, I think we are brought up in too boring an env, that all we care about are results., and we don't care about any things in life, such as the sports (don't know about now, but most of the straight As students are clerks in my time), the arts, the fun, etc.
We are such a boring place to be in.
The other day, I was watching Discovery Channel, and they were naming the top 50 places to visit in the world. I see Hong Kong (rank 19), San Francisco, New York, Shanghai, etc. No Singapore (hahaha). The point is, we are REALLY Boring on a whole as a nation and as people. It is probably the people that make the place fun, and since we are boring people, Singapore is a boring country. -
take after sun yat sen....when yuan shi kai pulled stunt sun raise army against him.....after yuan died sun countinue rule thru military thing to ensure power aint concentrate on one personOriginally posted by LazerLordz:Chiam and the WP are alright, as you can see their manifestos and values.
The challenge here is to build institutions independant and strong enough to ensure that power is not concentrated in one party's hands for too long a period of time.
It's not gonna be easy.. -
100k/1.5k=66.6 timesOriginally posted by soul_rage:u know, for me, on a personal view, they are overly paid. Each one of them earns 5 figures to 6 figures, when the average Singaporeans are earning only 1.5k to 4k a month (according to middle-income statistics). This to me, is too skewed, and causes a lot of unhappiness to Singaporeans.
100k/4k=25 times
Do you think they are 25 times to 66 times more capable, clever or wiser than most of you? Do you still feel million dollars for their salary is justified?
Pay higher= less corrupt?
Giving money to people can cure a person greediness if he is greedy? Higher pay can better cure a person greediness if he is greedy?
I would like to ask lets say 2m can tempt me you pay me 1m+ will the 2m or more still tempt me? -
haven't u heard of the ridiculously low pay of NSF's who are employed to do such sai kang?Originally posted by oxford mushroom:Tell me one outdoor demonstration in the west that does not require a police presence or traffic diversions. Even a small scale protest at a naval base in the UK costs 200,000 GBP (S$600k) each! (http://thescotsman.scotsman.com/index.cfm?id=237632005)
Protest all you want indoors...but it is not right to use taxpayer's money to facilitate your demonstrations and protests.