All out to defame our governement
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wah!! I was away for a few days and WAH!! this topic started 7 june morning, now is into the 10th Page!!!
think the response here had overtaken any threads involving FI. -
Nobody is out here to "defame" the government.
Even if there are people out to "defame" the government, what incentives do they get out of it? We are Singaporeans expressing our views about policies hoping to evoke a change, so as to achieve a betterment of lives for Singaporeans. -
did not i say before that the middle class is expected to not gain too much for policy because the focus of help is towards the poorer.Originally posted by SingaporeTyrannosaur:You seem to be missing my point, which is not surprising.
What I am point out quite clearly is that your model/theory and whatever pseudointellectual gibberish your are attempting to pass off in the place of common, decent sense is quite incomplete.
It's fatal flaw in that it basically has no checks and measures and does not even justify itself! By what yarstick is something deemed to be "worthy of consideration?"
Your idea that the system deems what is worthy to be considered and what they should not listen to only works IF the system intends to work FOR THE GOOD OF THE MAJORITY. Throw in other things like human nature, personal ambition and your model of the "elite big picture types are the only worthy ones to consider what works" falls apart like a stack of cards. Plenty of Regimes across the globe have proven quite simply that supressing the voice of the majority and picking and choosing what one wants to hear can and will eventually have distasterous results.
How come your model suddenly does not apply to the North Koreans? Is it's something that is unique to Singapore?
Please, do stop your pseudointellectualism and listen to Dr. Otto Octaviuswhen he said that intelligence was a gift to be used to the betterment of mankind.
with this in mind, i think we should thus not oppose and find fault with policies.
just focus on how to be richer by learning saving techniques, self improvment and things i will be fine.
i myself is a little poor in terms of family and myself. we should trust our leaders.
let me pose a question. let say we vote off PAP, do you people think opposition can do better or will they turn into like the PAP u all are complaining yourself.
if you are saying that current minister is greedy, will they opposition be not greedy when they are in power? -
yes, i understand, but are the views of change right?Originally posted by maurizio13:Nobody is out here to "defame" the government.
Even if there are people out to "defame" the government, what incentives do they get out of it? We are Singaporeans expressing our views about policies hoping to evoke a change, so as to achieve a betterment of lives for Singaporeans.
people can give reasons for their views, but anyone can also give reasons to anything.
my point is that their views are wrong, so the policies need not change and we trust out leaders and support them.
We can give opinions but make sure you listen to govt replies and try to reach some understanding. -
it seems to latest tactic by the counter insurgency squad is to loudly announced their status to other people, e.g. i am poor, i am middle class etc.. i am this and still support the govt...Originally posted by january:i myself is a little poor in terms of family and myself. we should trust our leaders. -
If everyone thinks like you, not opposing and not finding fault with policies, can I pose you a question? What's the use of opposition? What's the use of even an half-hearted explanation from the PAP?Originally posted by january:with this in mind, i think we should thus not oppose and find fault with policies.
just focus on how to be richer by learning saving techniques, self improvment and things i will be fine.
i myself is a little poor in terms of family and myself. we should trust our leaders.
let me pose a question. let say we vote off PAP, do you people think opposition can do better or will they turn into like the PAP u all are complaining yourself.
if you are saying that current minister is greedy, will they opposition be not greedy when they are in power?
True, everyone should know more about cashflow and investments, but wouldn't it be a bonus if government policies actually do make sense (with logical and acceptable explanation from the government) + you have the "techniques" that you mention?
Let's say everyone possesses these unique qualities of making sound investments and good cashflow management, does that mean that the government can come up with policies backed with stupid reasons? The answer is still NO! We still expect the government to answer our queries with well thought out facts that are backed with figures and actions! In fact, I expect even more questions!
I would like to pose this question back to you, if PAP had not come into power in the past, would they be given this chance to perform? What makes you so sure there wouldn't be another RISING STAR from the opposition camp waiting to shine?
We don't need a RISING STAR propped up by his father's might. We want and we need a real star. -
What makes you so sure we did not listen to the govt's replies? We even dissected the information released to the media... ponder over it, carry out our debates....Originally posted by january:yes, i understand, but are the views of change right?
people can give reasons for their views, but anyone can also give reasons to anything.
my point is that their views are wrong, so the policies need not change and we trust out leaders and support them.
We can give opinions but make sure you listen to govt replies and try to reach some understanding.
So what you are saying now is based on MM Lee's style : I AM RIGHT AND YOU ARE WRONG!
Well I say there are various aspects that could be further improved, so some policies do require changes and I am in support of changes! -
U r rught,same as us here gone the Lees in 2000s and then come Tan Ah Bian ,worst!!!Originally posted by january:did not i say before that the middle class is expected to not gain too much for policy because the focus of help is towards the poorer.
with this in mind, i think we should thus not oppose and find fault with policies.
just focus on how to be richer by learning saving techniques, self improvment and things i will be fine.
i myself is a little poor in terms of family and myself. we should trust our leaders.
let me pose a question. let say we vote off PAP, do you people think opposition can do better or will they turn into like the PAP u all are complaining yourself.
if you are saying that current minister is greedy, will they opposition be not greedy when they are in power?
Whole family corrupted!!!
But,can we prevent a Tan family in Sinkapore,is how we learnt from TW!!!!!
There is no worst than say GST is 4 the poors!!!! -
Originally posted by kilua:it seems to latest tactic by the counter insurgency squad is to loudly announced their status to other people, e.g. i am poor, i am middle class etc.. i am this and still support the govt...
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january's illogical ramblings speak of a sheltered existence and an overinflated ego nursed by false praises. How else would he be so sure that his take on things is "right" and all opposing views are "wrong". Go join the PAP when you grow up, little boy.
I heard they are in desperate need of more unthinking pooches to fend off the angry peasants. 
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for u can see, why would we defame our government if they did nth wrong?
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You have to understand that some people are just born to be whiners and they are only capable of creating all sort of nonsensical and distorted information to defame the government so that it will make them look smart.Originally posted by january:did not i say before that the middle class is expected to not gain too much for policy because the focus of help is towards the poorer.
with this in mind, i think we should thus not oppose and find fault with policies.
just focus on how to be richer by learning saving techniques, self improvment and things i will be fine.
i myself is a little poor in terms of family and myself. we should trust our leaders.
let me pose a question. let say we vote off PAP, do you people think opposition can do better or will they turn into like the PAP u all are complaining yourself.
if you are saying that current minister is greedy, will they opposition be not greedy when they are in power?
One classic example is maurizio13 who try to question our government's economic data with some elementary time series equation when our government are already using a more sophisticated, precise, proven and internationally accepted calculation method to analyze seasonal adjustment. When ask for this comment about government calculation method, he backs off quietly.
Further more, if you have notice, the whiners here have a common characteristic of following fellow whiners with their eyes closed.
e.g. Some whiners was questioning the feasibility of Singapore hosting F1 by stating that Shanghai organiser are losing their pants because it cost them $3billions to building Shanghai F1 facilties. And because the figure was provided by fellow whiner, they would have no choice but follow it blindly. As it turn out, the cost of building the shanghai F1 facilities is only 10% of what they claimed.
Hence, please make sure you discount what the whiners are saying, because they have the tendency of practising the 70/30 rules, ie. 70% bullsh.t and 30% lies. -
Talking about yourself? Notice your dumb whining when it comes to Australia?Originally posted by Gazelle:You have to understand that some people are just born to be whiners and they are only capable of creating all sort of nonsensical and distorted information to defame the government so that it will make them look smart.
One classic example is maurizio13 who try to question our government's economic data with some elementary time series equation when our government are already using a more sophisticated, precise, proven and internationally accepted calculation method to analyze seasonal adjustment. When ask for this comment about government calculation method, he backs off quietly.
Further more, if you have notice, the whiners here have a common characteristic of following fellow whiners with their eyes closed.
e.g. Some whiners was questioning the feasibility of Singapore hosting F1 by stating that Shanghai organiser are losing their pants because it cost them $3billions to building Shanghai F1 facilties. And because the figure was provided by fellow whiner, they would have no choice but follow it blindly. As it turn out, the cost of building the shanghai F1 facilities is only 10% of what they claimed.
Hence, please make sure you discount what the whiners are saying, because they have the tendency of practising the 70/30 rules, ie. 70% bullsh.t and 30% lies.
Somehow you just love to shoot yourself in the foot. Hey, how about not whining with your eyes closed and doing google searches all the time?
TIME TO WAKE UP... WHINER! -
Originally posted by bigmouthjoe:
And when he can't win an argument, what does he do? Defame people of course.. resorts to calling them abhorrent names.. like white d*cksuckers and p*ssies.
Talking about yourself? Notice your dumb whining when it comes to Australia?
Somehow you just love to shoot yourself in the foot. Hey, how about not whining with your eyes closed and doing google searches all the time?
[b]TIME TO WAKE UP... WHINER! [/b]
He's no whiner, just a loser who can't argue above ground! -
If some di.cks can call Singapore silllypore and sinkapore, what is wrong to call these Singapore born dic.ks head white pri.ck sucker living in pussieland?Originally posted by spinsugar:And when he can't win an argument, what does he do? Defame people of course.. resorts to calling them abhorrent names.. like white d*cksuckers and p*ssies.
He's no whiner, just a loser who can't argue above ground!
Loser? Nah...only loser will start a thread solely to start a flame war.
Want to know who?
Clue : Someone with big mouth and small joe. -
Question : Why is it that once the super-pro PAPites step in, the integrity of the conversation is always in danger of degrading past the point of Animal Farm? Answer : They learn from their masters!
*changes channel*
Back on the topic, I don't see how constructive criticism can be chucked into the same big black hole as "defamation". I've yet to see a logic-driven, multi-dimensional, coherent argument from the pro-PAP camp towards this topic yet. -
You are changing the subject again.. like you always do when you cannot provide a sensible and logical counter to my posts. When will you ever stop insulting people when your back is against the wall?Originally posted by Gazelle:If some di.cks can call Singapore silllypore and sinkapore, what is wrong to call these Singapore born dic.ks head white pri.ck sucker living in pussieland?
Loser? Nah...only loser will start a thread solely to start a flame war.
Want to know who?
Clue : Someone with big mouth and small joe.
It's time you respond like a man, not like a little baby.
My question to you now is that just like you can have issues with the Australian government, can't we as Singaporeans have the need for greater understanding behind the logic for certain policies? -
This applies to the government as well.Originally posted by january:yes, i understand, but are the views of change right?
people can give reasons for their views, but anyone can also give reasons to anything.
Take a look at the constitutional amendments from 1965 till today. In the past, speaking up agianst these laws will earn you the warth of the "sledgehammer" with ISD and Libel engraved on the sides. That is blatantly unjust. Today the ISD is used less visibly due to slight international pressure. The poilice force instead is used, libel suits are still hot with the PAP leadership.Originally posted by january:my point is that their views are wrong, so the policies need not change and we trust out leaders and support them.
The banning of peaceful assembly of individuals, is unjust. The govt has tried very hard to instil the paradigm "protests being non-existant". Non-violent protests are actaully not uncommon in other developed countries, but our media mainly report the violent ones, that get slamed by authorities. Hence a cultral disdain for protesters.. but today people are better traveled, worked and studied abroad, and they realise, wtf has Singapore been going? Singaporeans need to get out of the "Emeperor's new clothes" syndrome.
In a libel suit, how can the plaintiff be involved(directly or indirectly) in the appointment in the presiding judge?
In General elections, the rules are not meant to be changed by the ruling party, All parties to compete on equal terms. Again not the case here. Using taxpayers money as a carrot to buy votes? Thats morally correct?
They abolished public protests when they used it to oust the british in the 50s and 60s?
They created speakers corner, but when a person is given a permit to speak, others were not allowed to come and listen?
From the a leader who said this?Originally posted by january:We can give opinions but make sure you listen to govt replies and try to reach some understanding.
"We decide what is right. Nevermind what the people think."
Shouldn't it be the other way around? The Government listening to the people and trying to reach some understanding?
The constitution is the consequence of Individual Human Rights, not the other way around.[/b] -
You are right.......Taiwan did not have a Chiang dynasty as compared to our Lee empire.Originally posted by foomwee88:U r rught,same as us here gone the Lees in 2000s and then come Tan Ah Bian ,worst!!!
Whole family corrupted!!!
But,can we prevent a Tan family in Sinkapore,is how we learnt from TW!!!!!
There is no worst than say GST is 4 the poors!!!!
PS: May I suggest that you don't put so many exclaimation marks in your posts. It appears like you are ranting. Are you? -
Why isit that those who speakers against the those who create false information about our government are being labelled as pro-PAP? It doesnt make sense for you to start labelling people in this forum since.Originally posted by spinsugar:Back on the topic, I don't see how constructive criticism can be chucked into the same big black hole as "defamation". I've yet to see a logic-driven, multi-dimensional, coherent argument from the pro-PAP camp towards this topic yet.
1) it will not encourage discussion
2) You know nuts about each individual
3) You are not the TS
Before we discuss this further, I think it will be important to have a common understanding of what is the definition of defamation. -
if it was a defamation, the gahmen woulda sued..if they dun sue.. they must be some truths isn't it..?
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I don't see any need for them to argue against the opposition. They are governing us with almost 100% iron fist.Originally posted by january:let me tell u why pro govt people argue against opposition.
cos we do not want opposition to influence the minds of the undecided sector.
TS and me, is saying out because internet forum can sway people mind, so cos i think alot of opposition people have not so good resoning and narrow perspective.
government has many sectors, so its hard to argue cos do we talk about whole, parts, sub parts or individual cases.
generalization, analogy , self interest vs country interest , emotions are things that is being talked about here.
i dun understand why singapore govt is often painted as some devil sucker trying to suck our money by opposition.
the advice given by a few is good, but most are not good. arguments are going to be confusing and hard, as in the case of my atheist forum, taiwan politics, and global affairs, and also in workplace.
replace the current govt with opposition party or any party, there will still be complaint. replace the govt with those in the forum here u all think u can do a better job to organise so many things.
many opposition here give advices thinking that it is good advice but mostly are not. Government have to deal with many aspects and its a balancing art.
avian flu, local crimes, intellectual property, finacial markets, national eduction, investment, local taxation and many other things.
Even with 3 opposition members in the Parliament, the effects on us is limited.
If there is more, would the same still happens?
Governing a country isn't treating it like some corporation, but rather to balance it. The balance has not been achieved. -
Same way we are classified as opposition camp supporters.
Defamation: In law, defamation is the communication of a statement that makes a false claim, expressly stated or implied to be factual, that may harm the reputation of an individual, business, product, group, government or nation. Most jurisdictions allow legal actions, civil and/or criminal, to deter various kinds of defamation and retaliate against criticism.
I would say that everyone has their own train of thoughts, but are our intentions malicious? I am sure the general public can differentiate between rampant false and malicious statements and personal points of views.
If everyone is supposed to agree with everything that the government proposes, can it also be said that we are stripped of individual rights? -
First paragraph - reading ST showed some good responses from the people. I don't see why most aren't accepted. Even without reading ST, looking at the feedback forms filled up in CCs and RCs to improve their own area has not been looked at.Originally posted by january:Citizens advice will only be taken into consideration by government if they are analytical, broad minded , well reasoned, and the people have knowledge.
opposition people are already busy with their personal life and they want to give suggestion when they have no idea how the big picture works as the decision process and policy are drawn out with many factors of consideration.
anyway, the middle class have to note that it is the poor who will have to receive help first therefore middle will have to experienced some changes disfavor to them on superficial level.
But i can tell you that in politics, human mind, due to cognitive biasness is often hard to tell them logic. they will always have things to oppose the government.
3rd paragraph - It's no longer as easy to define poor, middle-income and rich. The line now has blurred. 10 years ago, $2000 per month could make you a middle-class earner. Now, even considering that you are single, you could be struggling to make ends meet. It's slightly above what the lower-income earn, and that often cut them off help.
Last paragraph - I will return the same ball to you. You too have applied same cognitive biasness to us. -
Now that we have a common understanding of the definition, can I say that by accusing the government of awarding Sentosa IR project to Genting Int because of political pressure from Malaysia is form of defamation because that will affect the credibility of our government and its system?Originally posted by bigmouthjoe:Same way we are classified as opposition camp supporters.
Defamation: In law, defamation is the communication of a statement that makes a false claim, expressly stated or implied to be factual, that may harm the reputation of an individual, business, product, group, government or nation. Most jurisdictions allow legal actions, civil and/or criminal, to deter various kinds of defamation and retaliate against criticism.
I would say that everyone has their own train of thoughts, but are our intentions malicious? I am sure the general public can differentiate between rampant false and malicious statements and personal points of views.
If everyone is supposed to agree with everything that the government proposes, can it also be said that we are stripped of individual rights?