All out to defame our governement
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Please don't swing here and there. Very giddy you know.Originally posted by january:did not i say before that the middle class is expected to not gain too much for policy because the focus of help is towards the poorer.
with this in mind, i think we should thus not oppose and find fault with policies.
just focus on how to be richer by learning saving techniques, self improvment and things i will be fine.
i myself is a little poor in terms of family and myself. we should trust our leaders.
let me pose a question. let say we vote off PAP, do you people think opposition can do better or will they turn into like the PAP u all are complaining yourself.
if you are saying that current minister is greedy, will they opposition be not greedy when they are in power?
You talk about trust for the current government, but the same logic doesn't apply to the rest, so what is there to talk about?
I may be extreme on this, but I still believe one needs to die to know what death is.
We have not experienced it, how do we know the opposition will not be greedy? You are too quick to brush them off. -
Originally posted by SingaporeTyrannosaur:
Interesting notion.
Hence, January is guilty of this:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bulverism
[b]Bulverism
[/b]
I questioned January: First and foremost, please comprehend that there is a hierachy to fill in every society. Not everyone can climb the ladder and make it good. Take a toilet cleaner for example. Is the reason why she's just a cleaner because she does not work hard enough? Is a mechanic still a mechanic after 20 years because he has poor work ethics? Given the huge supply of poly and uni grads year after year, is a diploma holder still earning less than $2000/mth after years of working, a bum? Likewise, a degree holder earning les than $3000/mth after years of working, a sloth?
He replied: if you think minister pay is good, why do you be a engineer, a cleaner or employee.
I also mentioned: These people do not ask for a crutch from the govt. Not everyone can make it good, that is why we need good governance to make life as smooth as possible.
He deflected my qn: Making every one good life is often not easy. anyway, if people dun always have the "keeping up with jonness" attitude and want this want that, of course they will not have money.
I challenged again: Every society has a hierachy to fill and not everyone can make it good. If everyone can become as they desire, then there shall only be MDs and GMs around, no coffesshop assistants or even cleaners to speak of.
He played "hide and seek" once again: so if you are a coffee shop assistant and you complain of your low wage, then dun be coffee shop assistant.
Yes, philosophy, socio-economics and politics can be inter-related. However, too much of philosophy ushered in makes one appear like he's spewing empty air.
For example, January philosophised: "I take self accountability to get rich and dun like to waste my time complaining policies. It always seems that it is human nature to think that government is doing the wrong thing again instead of also taking account of government progress."
Theoretically speaking, that should be the correct mentality. However, every society has a hierachy to fill (refer to my 2nd paragraph). Given this situation, if one still tries to use philosophy to further his stand, then it shows he doesn't understand the situation at all. -
Originally posted by ndmmxiaomayi:
10 years ago, most Singaporeans dont own mobile phone, dont have broadband, dont watch cable TV, dont own Ipod or mp3 player, dont drink coffee at starbucks etc. Is the middle earner struggling to make ends meet or are they struggling because of their new lifestyle?
[b]3rd paragraph - It's no longer as easy to define poor, middle-income and rich. The line now has blurred. 10 years ago, $2000 per month could make you a middle-class earner. Now, even considering that you are single, you could be struggling to make ends meet. It's slightly above what the lower-income earn, and that often cut them off help.[b] -
Yes, you can classify it under defamation if it is proven to be false. But it is highly unlikely to be countered against since there is no way to ascertain for sure that it was not the case, but of course neither can we say that the government is guilty of being biased because there is no evidence.Originally posted by Gazelle:Now that we have a common understanding of the definition, can I say that by accusing the government of awarding Sentosa IR project to Genting Int because of political pressure from Malaysia is form of defamation because that will affect the credibility of our government and its system?
In many, though not all, legal systems, statements presented as fact must be false to be defamatory.
Based on what's in the forum, many people would be sued for libel. Just like the words we used to describe others in times of flaming. Malicious or not, it is best left to the viewer's discretion. -
Is it just lifestyle alone?Originally posted by Gazelle:10 years ago, most Singaporeans dont own mobile phone, dont have broadband, dont watch cable TV, dont own Ipod or mp3 player, dont drink coffee at starbucks etc. Is the middle earner struggling to make ends meet or are they struggling because of their new lifestyle?
10 years ago, I see the same people earning the same amount.
10 years later, I still see the same people earning the same amount, without all these luxuries and struggling. -
The above statement will be more meaningful if you could let us knowOriginally posted by ndmmxiaomayi:Is it just lifestyle alone?
10 years ago, I see the same people earning the same amount.
10 years later, I still see the same people earning the same amount, without all these luxuries and struggling.
a) Who are these same people you are referring to?
b) Does this pool of people provide a good represtation of the overall Singapore job market?
c) Do you have reasons to believe that the statistic provided by MOM is distorted?
http://www.mom.gov.sg/publish/momportal/en/communities/others/mrsd/statistics/Earnings_and_Wages.html -
Do you understand poverty or how its measured?Originally posted by Gazelle:10 years ago, most Singaporeans dont own mobile phone, dont have broadband, dont watch cable TV, dont own Ipod or mp3 player, dont drink coffee at starbucks etc. Is the middle earner struggling to make ends meet or are they struggling because of their new lifestyle?
Taken from Singapore Department of Statistics (which is run by PAP) on
COUNTRY PAPER ON POVERTY MEASUREMENT
Relative Poverty
In many developed countries, the low- or lower-income groups are defined in relation to other (higher) income groups according to the prevailing standards of living in the society. This approach focuses on the gap between the ‘haves’ and the ‘have-nots’ or income distribution and inequality.
www.singstat.gov.sg/papers/op/op-s5.pdf -
I should now bring into discussion the topic of the infamous T.T Durai.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Kidney_Foundation_Singapore_scandal
In August 1997 and December 1998, NKF volunteer Archie Ong and aero-modelling instructor Piragasam Singaravelu respectively were hauled to court separately for defamation when both said that T.T. Durai had been flying first class.
The former mentioned in April 1997 that the NKF "squandered monies" in a casual conversation with former chairman of NKF's finance committee Alwyn Lim, while the latter has claimed that he had personally seen Mr Durai in Singapore Airlines' first-class cabin. Both paid an undisclosed amount of damages to the NKF, and apologised.
...
In 1999, NKF tracked down and again took legal action against Tan Kiat Noi, who allegedly circulated an e-mail from her company e-mail on 5 April, claiming that "the NKF did not help the poor and needy, paid its staff unrealistically high bonuses" and discouraged members of the public from donating. She later published a public apology on local broadsheets The Straits Times and Lianhe Zaobao, and paid a total of S$50,000 in damages. 48 additional workers who forwarded the same e-mail were also sued by the organisation, but the suit was later dropped in consideration that they would face possible financial hardships.
They were successfully sued for defamation, but it was unfair for them due to the lack of transparency regarding NKF. The onus it seems, was on the accused to prove that they are innocent, INSTEAD of the prosecution to prove that the accused is guilty of libel.
The same can be said of most libel cases involving certain bodies in Singapore. -
10 years ago becoming a millionaire was a major achievement...now earning that in a year is too much of a sacrifice, there's a special group of 'servants' who are whining about the low wages, must be at least $2mil...Originally posted by Gazelle:10 years ago, most Singaporeans dont own mobile phone, dont have broadband, dont watch cable TV, dont own Ipod or mp3 player, dont drink coffee at starbucks etc. Is the middle earner struggling to make ends meet or are they struggling because of their new lifestyle?
there's a certain disquiet among the populace....that's how the french revolution boiled over.... -
I am sure you have studied mean median mode in "O" levels. A rise in average could mean the top 10% wage are rising rising and pulling up the average while the general populations wage stays stagnant. Could please produce data for median please,Originally posted by Gazelle:c) Do you have reasons to believe that the statistic provided by MOM is distorted?
http://www.mom.gov.sg/publish/momportal/en/communities/others/mrsd/statistics/Earnings_and_Wages.html
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Before anyone accuse the government of doing something I think it is important that he or she is able to support his claim by facts and proof instead of creating all that cock and bull stories, or base on historical events or rumour.Originally posted by bigmouthjoe:Yes, you can classify it under defamation if it is proven to be false. But it is highly unlikely to be countered against since there is no way to ascertain for sure that it was not the case, but of course neither can we say that the government is guilty of being biased because there is no evidence.
In many, though not all, legal systems, statements presented as fact must be false to be defamatory.
Based on what's in the forum, many people would be sued for libel. Just like the words we used to describe others in times of flaming. Malicious or not, it is best left to the viewer's discretion.
e.g. To support his claim about Sentosa IR, he has actually said that PM Badawi actually visited Singapore 2 months before or 2 months after the Sentosa IR annoucement (oct 2006) to pressure and thanks Singapore government respectively. Did PM Badawi flew into Singapore in a stealth plane and flew off without anybody knowing accept him? -
Let me quote you an example of my friend:Originally posted by Gazelle:10 years ago, most Singaporeans dont own mobile phone, dont have broadband, dont watch cable TV, dont own Ipod or mp3 player, dont drink coffee at starbucks etc. Is the middle earner struggling to make ends meet or are they struggling because of their new lifestyle?
Mr A's profile:
University graduate
IT professional
Worked for 4 years
Take home salary: $2,300/mth
Monthly expenses:
Parents - $800
Food - $400
Transport - $250
Insurance - $300
Leisure (includes gf) - $500
Savings - $50
How is he going to start his own family anytime soon?
What if his parents fall sick and are admitted into hospital?
Now contrast that with:
- raising the GST to "help the poor" and the government raking in millions a year
- means testing in hospitals
- low COEs, raising the supply of cars on the roads and more negative equity for the individual
- high HDB prices which ensure that you pay till retirement
- encouragement of Singaporeans to have more babies
- loose usage of CPF which means that the average Singaporean may have little in his/her CPF when retirement beckons
We are not asking for a change in govt but only for the govt to rule with a good degree of self-respectability.
We are not asking for opposition to seize power but for them to participate in parliament in larger numbers so as to keep a check on the govt.
We are not asking for a crutch but for the govt to make life as smooth as possible simply because not everyone can make it rich. -
Those statistics are based on Singapore $ Per Employee.Originally posted by Gazelle:The above statement will be more meaningful if you could let us know
a) Who are these same people you are referring to?
b) Does this pool of people provide a good represtation of the overall Singapore job market?
c) Do you have reasons to believe that the statistic provided by MOM is distorted?
http://www.mom.gov.sg/publish/momportal/en/communities/others/mrsd/statistics/Earnings_and_Wages.html
Meaning that if our dear ministers who are recieving million dollar pay raise is going to contribute significantly to the projected figure.
The statistics should be shown in a more transparent manner. Namely a breakdown in terms of the top 20%, 60% and lastly the bottom most 20%. -
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographics_of_Singapore#Growth_in_household_income_by_decile
Household income distribution by Signapore Dept of Statistics.
At the 60% mark, its about 4k per household. Think most of us agree that almost all households in that range have more than one breadwinner. -
You can and should refute his points based on what he is saying, however similarly you cannot refute his points because you have no prove that it did not happen. I am not aware of this discussion regarding the IR so I cannot comment further on this issue.Originally posted by Gazelle:Before anyone accuse the government of doing something I think it is important that he or she is able to support his claim by facts and proof instead of creating all that cock and bull stories, or base on historical events or rumour.
e.g. To support his claim about Sentosa IR, he has actually said that PM Badawi actually visited Singapore 2 months before or 2 months after the Sentosa IR annoucement (oct 2006) to pressure and thanks Singapore government respectively. Did PM Badawi flew into Singapore in a stealth plane and flew off without anybody knowing accept him? -
You dont question someone with another question because that only shows that you are question that someone just for the sake of questioning.Originally posted by kilua:I am sure you have studied mean median mode in "O" levels. A rise in average could mean the top 10% wage are rising rising and pulling up the average while the general populations wage stays stagnant. Could please produce data for median please,
"Could" is a speculative word that has no meaning unless you could provide facts to support it. -
Metaphorical wrote:
Read "The Little Red Dot" and "20 Major Government Policy Errors".
Kan ni nia I thought only taiwan want learn from we all, now Russia also want learn from sg!
yesterday Lky in moscow time, reporters also ask how russia can learn from we all sg. Lky give them some advise how improve & how stop corruption.
Kan ni nia nowday be sg citizens also proud & shiok, go anywhere also got other country people respect we all!
As posted in the above-stated two threads, there are too many problems being caused by past autocratic system of running the country unreported by our government controlled media.
If Taiwan and Russia wanted to jack up their costs of living with double-taxations and fullest cost recovering through GLCs and HDB practising all kinds of profiteering schemes which do not even show up in Parliament Annual Budgets, against their own citizens, until their standard of living has dropped back to the 3rd world and the rich people and elites are happily being helped by the government to extract benefits from such a system, then it is true in what you said, Singapore way is the best way to do it. -
How true.Originally posted by kilua:I am sure you have studied mean median mode in "O" levels. A rise in average could mean the top 10% wage are rising rising and pulling up the average while the general populations wage stays stagnant. Could please produce data for median please,
Has Gazelle noticed that statistics on percentage of population per income group is ostensibly missing from the MOM website?
If MOM can use CPF contributions to calculate the mean income of Singaporeans, why not the classification of the population by income levels?
Or is MOM afraid to show that it is the rich getting richer and the poor remaining poor? -
It's a valid question and is vital to whether you can sustain your argument a not.Originally posted by Gazelle:You dont question someone with another question because that only shows that you are question that someone just for the sake of questioning.
"Could" is a speculative word that has no meaning unless you could provide facts to support it.
Just answer his question for goodness sake. -
Originally posted by Gazelle:
Why isit that those who speakers against the those who create false information about our government are being labelled as pro-PAP? It doesnt make sense for you to start labelling people in this forum since.
1) it will not encourage discussion
2) You know nuts about each individual
3) You are not the TS
Before we discuss this further, I think it will be important to have a common understanding of what is the definition of defamation.Originally posted by Gazelle:
You're a walking contradiction... you could do well to heed your own advice, in fact you just replied to your own self up there!
If some di.cks can call Singapore silllypore and sinkapore, what is wrong to call these Singapore born dic.ks head white pri.ck sucker living in pussieland?
Loser? Nah...only loser will start a thread solely to start a flame war.
Want to know who?
Clue : Someone with big mouth and small joe.
Be logical. If you truly feel strongly against any particular argument here, why don't you offer your own counter explanation instead of trying to explain away how and why the other person is stupid, or trying to divert the conversation?
Whatever u're doing, it's not working. Please evolve. -
Yes unfortunately informations have been skewered to put the government in a good light, as will be the case with most government press releases.
It only serves to earn the distrust of the general population, especially those that knows that vital information is missing and deliberately hidden. -
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographics_of_Singapore#Growth_in_household_income_by_decile
The statistics are in the link, and done by the PAP government.
The lower 20% suffer constants drops, while highest 10% get increases. Facts endorsed by the Singapore Dept of Statistics... -
What I don't like is the way only one view ('good') is allowed to get good press / coverage, while the "alternate" views ('bad') are downplayed/under-represented. Examples were aplenty in the last GE. Things are never so black & white, and should never be.Originally posted by bigmouthjoe:Yes unfortunately informations have been skewered to put the government in a good light, as will be the case with most government press releases.
It only serves to earn the distrust of the general population, especially those that knows that vital informations are missing and deliberately hidden.
Before people start mumbling and nodding away when they get the message that opposition is bad, remember that LKY would never step up if it were not for a strong opposition, fair elections and freedom of speech. -
I may not be well versed along the lines of economics, but can I say that the rate of inflation is higher than the increase in wages?Originally posted by Jontst78:http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographics_of_Singapore#Growth_in_household_income_by_decile
The statistics are in the link, and done by the PAP government.
The lower 20% suffer constants drops, while highest 10% get increases. Facts endorsed by the Singapore Dept of Statistics... -
Gazelle, many of us here have given you our reasoning and statistics.Originally posted by ndmmxiaomayi:First paragraph - reading ST showed some good responses from the people. I don't see why most aren't accepted. Even without reading ST, looking at the feedback forms filled up in CCs and RCs to improve their own area has not been looked at.
3rd paragraph - It's no longer as easy to define poor, middle-income and rich. The line now has blurred. 10 years ago, $2000 per month could make you a middle-class earner. Now, even considering that you are single, you could be struggling to make ends meet. It's slightly above what the lower-income earn, and that often cut them off help.
Last paragraph - I will return the same ball to you. You too have applied same cognitive biasness to us.
Come on, prove ndmmxiaomayi wrong. Answer kilua's question too. Answering the question is vital to you sustaining your argument.