All out to defame our governement
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The fact is that there were over 2000 children whos parents cannot afford education around the year 2001, at the primary and secondary level. And what of those that who are not talented? What of those with an average IQ? They get sucked in back into the poverty cycle? Children forced via circumstance into working to assist parents in bringing home the bacon due to an immediate need? Many of these parents aren't even literate enough to fill in the application forms for busaries.Originally posted by oxford mushroom:Not true. If you have the talent, you are not denied educational opportunities in Singapore. I know that from my own experience and I have also mentioned the ST senior writer whose father is a cab driver. My father earned even less than a cab driver...he couldn't have afforded the education I had. There are scholarships and busaries available. If you have the talent, you can go all the way to Oxbridge and Ivy league colleges...the government and various stat boards will fund you. Those who are not good enough for a scholarship can get bank loans and busaries...if you can get into one of our local Unis, you will not be denied an education because you cannot afford the fees.
Those who are less talented will not do as well, but not because of financial reasons.
Even if there were busaries, parents who are already struggling afford to make ends meet may not even be afford uniforms etc.
Leaving the untalented and socially challenged to rot away should not be the paradigm of our society. -
Got to go too...will come back later.Originally posted by bigmouthjoe:Haha great to see everyone discussing like proper ladies and gentlemen with no flaming.
PS: can't participate in this friendly discussion yet due to work. -
Nah! Your wife and girlfriend gave me some french lessons in kissing.Originally posted by oxford mushroom:Ha...finally a post without vulgarities. What happened? Did your mother wash your mouth out with soap?
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Originally posted by oxford mushroom:
Another flawed logic, two identical cleaners cannot make different wages in the same market. If your office cleaner is cheaper than the cleaner in the IR, wouldn't the IR employ your office cleaner. You are contradicting yourself, you said wages in Singapore must remain competitive (due to globalisation) compared to wages in China, so if this is true. How can an IR pay more salary than your office? You seem to have a persistent habit of running into a concrete wall.
Exactly, the opinion is divided but someone must make the final decision. The MM was against it and I was against it. But the figures are convincing...the IRs will bring revenue and more importantly, provide jobs for low-skilled Singaporeans. [b]A cleaner in my office will not be able to earn as much as a cleaner in the IR.
Having weighed the pros and cons, the government decided this is the most appropriate decision we should take and they took it. If they made the wrong decision, they will answer for it in the polls. [/b]
Moron!!!
Calling you a moron does not constitute vulgarities, merely stating a fact. -
Yes, agree with your last para. ONe gotta look beyond superficial level. A condescending attitude does not help either. January is a good example of a "child" easily pacified just by giving him "sweets"!Originally posted by Rock^Star:You echo a philosophical point of view. Going by theory, I do not disagree.
However, how much do you really understand about what the govt has achieved or not achieved?
And what gave you the impression that only middle class citizens complain about the governance? Your 'take it as it comes (whatever policies from the govt)' mentality....that in itself, is a form of myopia and like you call it: 'narrow-mindedness'. -
Originally posted by PRP:
Excuse me, you said no reward!! Didn't they just received fat reward by getting super high pay!! So what do you mean no reward?
[b]The govt has its strong & weak points
The PAP Govt has its strong points & its weaknesses.It does somethiing very well & it doesn't work on some other things.Complaining or scolding it -- understandable thou -- won't improve things. Helping it to do a better job should help improve things.But then,why should u do it if there is no reward,right?
Everybody should discharge their responsibilities too and be good persons.[/b]
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There is never a perfect system. People always want to air their views.
However, if the system is so fearful of the truth coming out, then this is a big question to ask. Why is it so. -
The market cannot pay a fair price for it's goods and services. Basically, the wages of the low income workers are determined by our government owned trade unions.Originally posted by oxford mushroom:So what's your point? The market pays according to what it considers to be a fair price for whatever goods or services. A cleaner's skills are not valued as highly as those of a brain surgeon, hence the difference in pay and quite rightly so.
What matters is not elitism. There will always be an elite or hierachy in society as you choose to call it. What matters is that there is possibility of social mobility and our education system provides for that.
The ST senior journalist Chua Mui Hoong is a case in point. A daughter of a taxi driver, she has managed to win scholarships to get an MA from Cambridge and a Masters from Harvard. So she does better and earns more than her father. That's the social mobility this government has provided.
Your third paragraph, is not relevant to what the original person posted. It's just propaganda again. -
My apologies, I did not fully understand your post on first read.Originally posted by oxford mushroom:I can explain to you. I cannot understand for you. This was my reply 9edited typo errors), what is it you do not understand?
"Japanese and Korean workers are on average, better educated and more productive. One must not forget that these countries are also more expensive...there is a general correlation between cost of living and salaries.
Think of Sweden, it has a very narrow wage gap. They have high taxes and a generous welfare scheme. But one of the richest man in the world, the Ikea boss, is from Sweden. Many of the high net-worth individuals escape the taxes by financial arrangements that on paper, shows them as earning very little:
" In total, these two groups suffered tax bills of a mere €19m in 2004 on their combined profits of €553m. Clearly, the Kamprad family pays the same meticulous attention to tax avoidance as IKEA does to low prices in its stores."
http://www.economist.com/displayStory.cfm?story_id=6919139
It is the richest people that can hire the top lawyers and accountants to avoid taxes legally through every loophole possible. There was even recent news about a member of the House of Lords in UK who is non-resident in Britain...a tax exile.
You can keep the salary gap small by protectionism against the forces of globalisation. But Singapore is a small economy. We have come so far through globalisation. Protectionism will not work for us."
Income disparity can be narrowed if our low paid workers work in wafer fabs instead of selling cosmetic jewelry, or work in shipyards instead of doing general clerical work. However, I do not think we should aim for income parity...even the communists have learnt that it does not work. What we should go for is an increasing pay for all workers with the possibility of social mobility up the ladder.
But you go on to talk about Sweden and Uk where the rich evade tax and therefore their income appear smaller on records. All the rich evade tax? Prove it. -
hey, shutterbug, to help you understand what january posted in a sentence. (oops, just kidding. Think you know what he meant, you are nice not to dig out. That is he is blaming people for talking unfavourably about the ruling party, he is very unhappy about it!!Originally posted by ShutterBug:I find that, I do not understand a single thing you just posted... -
In every system, there will be fall outs.... even with HDB. If you look at the pricing, there are cheaper 3 rm/ 4 rm/ 5 rm from place to place. the hotter places are more expensive, the not so popular places are cheaper. people can choose to buy a faraway place for a "discounted rate" as compared to places in the central. Lots of people have no problem buying a HDB to live in. But some people do choose a bigger flat when a smaller one will suffice as they demand more space for their own whims and fancy so thus they fork out more.Originally posted by sourketchup:What?
Many spend their whole lives paying off the flats, don't think they would be too impressed by that reasoning.
If there are some people who are rich enough to play around property, so be it.
Point is, the flats sold by HDB should be affordable, without causing years of salary to pay off.
if flats are too cheap and easily paid out, people will squander away easily their only property they own and lose the entitlement to buy a new flat at subsidized rates and thus become roofless...
a property including hdb is a home and meant to be serviced out on a long term loan. people will work hard to fulfill their needs and wants and that's what the gahmen want. they want people to appreciate their home, love their home and work hard for their homes. they do not want people to squander away their only rooftop. -
hope poster will exercise maturity in viewing his points and not slamming people of Singapore.Originally posted by january:People pattern is always like. they are not rich, then they still want to go restaurants, buy clothes, buy car.
if you know you are not rich, then dun spend on wants, just spend on your needs, then you will have enough savings.
but people wont be like this. they will just enjoy life until when things go wrong, they dun like back on how much they have spend on wants inthe past.
they just complain about prices and then the government. -
Simple, they are in the PM's office for the ruling party to use more of taxpayers' $$$ to pay these whatever. Like vaccum cleaner!!! ha ha!~!!Originally posted by red_amoeba:of course there are capable ministers and there are non-capable ones. first and foremost, how many ministers are ministers without standing for an election? The first step to convince me that he has ministerial qualities is first, he must stand for election, one v one and win. Then show me what you can do.
Another point i want to ask the government - why do you have so many minister in prime minister office? What exactly are they doing? And what have they delivered? you have health, defense, transport, communication, trade, foreign affairs - why do you have a handful of minister in PMO? I thought the only minister in PMO shld be the PM? -
Originally posted by oxford mushroom:As I said, private property prices influence HDB prices. Increase in rental prices of serviced apartments etc will push expatriates down into the HDB market. There is also speculation that the increase in demand for new hotels will push up prices for the en bloc sale markets.
Expatriates cannot buy HDBs except for Singaporeans and PRs. Let me reiterate, HDB prices are eventually set by the govt no matter what market forces there are.
Yes, if CPF funds were not allowed to be used to buy property, most Singaporeans will not own their homes today. HDB prices are still much lower than private properties.
And the money for retirement shall come from? You mean only with CPF, then may one buy a flat and own a home? Where did you get this notion from? Primary and secondary school brainwash?
If the price of an HDB flat goes up too much, people will buy private property instead, pushing up prices of private condos...the two are linked.
Well said. Toa Payoh flats are in the range of $300,000 - $600,000. No wonder people move over to condominiums and therefore more debts incurred. -
Originally posted by bigmouthjoe:
You spoke my mind. and they are getting very "xiao zhang" in putting themselves first. Look at the recent salary increment!!!
I seriously cannot understand why the argument has shifted to people being unhappy about their wages.
Why should this be the topic on hand?
Why are we not concentrating on the fact that the government has chosen to put themselves first ahead of the people? Why did they think of their own personal welfare ahead of the people, the very people that they are suppose to serve? Have the people of Singapore not express our disappointment at the government's decision?
Are all those Singaporeans that were unhappy with the government's decision all out to defame our government?
Is speaking our minds, giving our opinions about the government defaming them? Then in this case there is no need for elections and oppositions anymore. [b]Let PAP do whatever they want... whenever they want.
In life, we always question the actions of others. If the government cannot face criticism and queries, let alone answer them, I seriously doubt that the general public would be appeased.[/b]
Perhaps TS does not have that good vocab knowledge that's why use the word "defame". but one thing i am sure is TS is very unhappy with the people of Singapore, "defame" is definitely not the word to be used when the reality is people are not happy, they voice out their views, comments, and so on and this is nothing to do with defamation. Perhaps, TS should do something to improve his or her English. -
What a good posting!!! ha ha ha!!Originally posted by pearlie27:citymax,
Don't think you should worry yourself over forummers defaming the gahmen. Don't you know that our gahmen are very good at suing people for defamation? i some how suspect they welcome people to defame them for then they can sue and win lots of money. Well said!!! -
maurizio13, I kena from the same person before. He always blah blah blah to say is entitled to his own views, when people voiced own views, people kena !!!Originally posted by maurizio13:Well, like you said, you are entitled to your "right of your own view", am I entitled to my own views too? Or is this an entitlement for supporters only? You are entitled to your own opinion blah blah blah, similarly I am entitled to the view that you are deluded and wrong. -
yes, they are now pleasing the young generation by having more activities for the youth. But the young generation are/is not stupid they know what is going on and have their own views and good sense of judgement.Originally posted by maurizio13:Most of these fear votes are related to those older folks, they have very little knowledge, thus voted out of fear. I know of a hawker who voted for them because he fear reprisals.
As these older folks die out, their votes will decrease, that's why you see the MPs doing hip hop to curry favour from the younger generation. -
yes, think he is a kid below 21 year old. Read from his posts from AA we will know his age group. Lack of exposure thus look at things from a well!!Originally posted by maurizio13:I think you are just a under 16 year old kid who hasn't seen the world yet. Live another 10-20 years before forming an opinion about the government.
From your post, "where to buy skateboard that is not expensive??" and "where to buy and learn electronic keyboard?", proves that you are just a kiddo.
For a person who has trouble buying a skateboard and electronic keyboard, you wouldn't have too many reasonable opinions of our government.
Kids are the easiest to brainwash in schools.
I wonder how many forumers felt strange after talking to a under 16 y.o. about politics?
So are you a capricorn or an aquarius? -
think you are not objective and ignorant. When did the gahmen listen to us the people of Singapore. Think you are better off playing games and skateboard!!Originally posted by january:Citizens advice will only be taken into consideration by government if they are analytical, broad minded , well reasoned, and the people have knowledge.
opposition people are already busy with their personal life and they want to give suggestion when they have no idea how the big picture works as the decision process and policy are drawn out with many factors of consideration.
anyway, the middle class have to note that it is the poor who will have to receive help first therefore middle will have to experienced some changes disfavor to them on superficial level.
But i can tell you that in politics, human mind, due to cognitive biasness is often hard to tell them logic. they will always have things to oppose the government. -
hey, WHINER GAZELLE, WHAT'S your problem?Originally posted by Gazelle:You have to understand that some people are just born to be whiners and they are only capable of creating all sort of nonsensical and distorted information to defame the government so that it will make them look smart.
One classic example is maurizio13 who try to question our government's economic data with some elementary time series equation when our government are already using a more sophisticated, precise, proven and internationally accepted calculation method to analyze seasonal adjustment. When ask for this comment about government calculation method, he backs off quietly.
Further more, if you have notice, the whiners here have a common characteristic of following fellow whiners with their eyes closed.
e.g. Some whiners was questioning the feasibility of Singapore hosting F1 by stating that Shanghai organiser are losing their pants because it cost them $3billions to building Shanghai F1 facilties. And because the figure was provided by fellow whiner, they would have no choice but follow it blindly. As it turn out, the cost of building the shanghai F1 facilities is only 10% of what they claimed.
Hence, please make sure you discount what the whiners are saying, because they have the tendency of practising the 70/30 rules, ie. 70% bullsh.t and 30% lies. -
damn shallow!!!Originally posted by january:i ask a question to all the complainers in here.
what do have not in your life that your think your life is not smooth and not good?
Is it that you cannot go concert? cannot go restaurant? cannot buy car? cannot live in big house? cannot watch movies frequently? Cannot take taxi? cannot go to wedding (60 per person) ? cannot buy cable vision? cannot buy 60 dollar internet subscription?
Do you know that singtel cheapest is 30 dollars per month. 1Mbps
If you expectation exceed your income, of course you will have not smooth life. What people do is to shfit the cause of problem from them to others.
that is the usual scene.
people can enjoy more spending because they earn more. as long as you dun follow them becos u not the same income bracket, then your life will be smooth because you know how to plan your finance and plan long term.
there are many cheaper lifestyle if u follow, life will be smooth. -
Don't think january can accept facts and sense.Originally posted by ndmmxiaomayi:When a fight occurs, you call the police or you cheer them on?
Same thing here. When costs are rising here, something should be done to improve the situation, not increase them and then give excuses like packages will be given out to help them.
I don't know how much consideration has the government considered before deciding to implement it, but if you ask me, I don't think ample is given. Just look at the casino issue. When it was brought that whether or we should have, about half agreed, half disagreed.
Granted, there were debates, some MPs disagreed. But are their voices heard?
Great knowledge doesn't mean one can apply local context. Where did they study? Where did they work? How would their own experience be relevant to Singapore?
Singapore and US may be a democratic country, but the same policies that applies to US doesn't apply here, simply because our thinking and their thinking just don't go along.
If you have started working, you should know certain methods will always work, but the same methods will not work for some people who chooses otherwise. -
Originally posted by oxford mushroom:It does. The new flats from HDB are not overpriced. If they are, we won't have 80% of Singaporeans living in them. Consider this, do you expect the government to sell you a heavily subsidised, new 5-room flat for only 50k, so that you can sell it in the resale market for 250k? The government has 2-room flats and rental flats for the very poor for almost nothing. But for the rest of Singaporeans, the CPF investment in a new subsidized HDB flat is almost guranteed to increase the value of your assets.
If Singaporeans do not reside in HDBs, I do not know where else. 80% of Singaporeans staying in HDBs does not mean it's affordable. A person driving a BMW or Mercedes does not mean he is rich either.
Buy for 50k and sell for 250k? The whole point is missed here. Prices should never be that high in the first place, even after taking into account market forces.
New Toa Payoh or AMK flats going for between $300,000 to $600,000 is definitely overpriced. Factor in loan interest rates of 2.6% to 4% per annum over a tenure of 20-30 years, the entire amount to repay is astronomical. And then not much will be left in CPF accounts for retirement.
But I do not think it is fair for the government to subsidize too much using tax payers' money. If you think the private sector can build HDB flats more cheaply, then they are welcome to bid for it, as they now do. -
Nadah!!! Globalisation brings about income equalisation, it does not lead to greater income gap. There is a difference you know. What you said in an earlier post relates to you all this while, "a little knowledge is a dangerous thing".Originally posted by oxford mushroom:With globalisation we will see a greater income gap. The market will always go for the lowest priced good or services of similar quality. That brings down the inflation rate too.
Are you stating the obvious, you might as well tell people if you jump from the 20th floor without any safety devices, you will die. You try to add credence to your arguments by adding infantile logic.
How does it bring down inflation? By lowering our wages and increasing the price of necessities (transport, taxes, communications, etc). It might bring about lower inflation, but the purchasing power of Singaporeans has dropped.