All out to defame our governement
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Originally posted by Coquitlam:
Why should despair and despondency set in ?
Bottomline is there is no hope or future in Sillypore....we all tend to discuss the merits or downside of the powers that be...frankly its so tiring and sickening...better to maintain one's own sanity by just emigrating elsewhere...
This is the best solution I can think of for all fellow sillyporeans....or rather ex-Singaporeans
The water will wear out the stone, and a rush of water will even move it from a large rock from its time-lodged position.
This is our birth place in which many have invested a lifetime, why should we surrender this place to a few ''money grabbing and power-hungry'' politicians ?
POLITICS is Life itself, and is a continuing cycle.
The hot summer will lead to withering autumn, into cold winter, and a good spring will bloom when the climate respond to our tending to our immediate environment; especially if we do not neglect the elements that will negatively affect the environment for ourselves.
Where ever you can run to - out of Singapore - the same ''weather'' will affect you. If you cannot be pro-active in Singapore, can you even be allowed to be pro-active in some other adopted place ? -
That's part of the problem, Atobe. People can't tell the difference between COST of living, and QUALITY of living. The media's very fond of confusing the two for some reason. After a while, people are convinced they're one and the same.
This spills over to other facets of life, too. Thing is, many Singaporeans lack critical thinking skills. Many of us have been conditioned to simply accept what the authorities say as fact. Even those who aren't fooled are weary of talking to a brick wall, with the echoes of their own voices the only reply. If big brother says it's true, it must be true. But is it?
And if we *do* question Big Brother and list out facts along with reasoning and questions, can we truly be said to be "defaming" Big Brother? Do we not have the right to question what Big Brother is doing..?
How many of us actually examine the evidence and reasoning offered, and reflect upon it? Few. And how many actually act upon discovering a flaw in the reasoning offered? Even fewer. While everyone wants to express their "opinion", especially the young ones, they seldom have enough reasoning power to bring it to the next level - to have an educated opinion. And even those who want to act have to worry about their families - expressing a different opinion has a high cost in Singapore. One does not have to look farther than Hougang or Potong Pasir for evidence of this.
Despite the call for increased creativity to be..... "taught"... our education system 'mysteriously' still remains anti-creative. Why is this so? Think out of the box? What about those who obliberate the bloody box? Can Big Brother accept such people, or will they be made out to be "troublemakers"? I think right now, we all know the answer to that. all except sheltered or stubborn people like january - he/she is simply a newly manufactured product of this system that has yet to open his/her eyes.
All in time. -
The government will spare no expense in hunting down and destroying their detractors. It has been the way since they came into power. Their grip and their monopoly on on power, something we citizens played a part in helping them achieve, is so strong that one worries about going against a monster like that. How can we not? But, what can we do? None of us want to be like the student that the army tank rolled over. The fear is not unfounded.Originally posted by Atobe:Why should despair and despondency set in ?
The water will wear out the stone, and a rush of water will even move it from a large rock from its time-lodged position.
This is our birth place in which many have invested a lifetime, why should we surrender this place to a few ''money grabbing and power-hungry'' politicians ?
POLITICS is Life itself, and is a continuing cycle.
The hot summer will lead to withering autumn, into cold winter, and a good spring will bloom when the climate respond to our tending to our immediate environment; especially if we do not neglect the elements that will negatively affect the environment for ourselves.
Where ever you can run to - out of Singapore - the same ''weather'' will affect you. If you cannot be pro-active in Singapore, can you even be allowed to be pro-active in some other adopted place ?
I am at a loss myself. Tired.. tired of this political tomfoolery, tired of people who don't appear to give a damn what happens to this country and leave everything in the "good hands" of Big Brother. Soon, I will have to go, too. To somewhere with a soul.
What can we truly do, Atobe? -
Thank you for acting like a secretary for this thread and your kind intention to bring this discussion into perspective. However I would like to question your purpose of leaving out several quotes that are most important to this discussion?Originally posted by Rock^Star:I will answer your qns above, I promise. But before we deviate from our heading any further, please answer the issue below.
ndmmxiaomayi said: Is it just lifestyle alone?
10 years ago, I see the same people earning the same amount.
10 years later, I still see the same people earning the same amount, without all these luxuries and struggling.
You asked: The above statement will be more meaningful if you could let us know
a) Who are these same people you are referring to?
b) Does this pool of people provide a good represtation of the overall Singapore job market?
c) Do you have reasons to believe that the statistic provided by MOM is distorted?
http://www.mom.gov.sg/publish/momportal/en/communities/others/mrsd/statistics/Earnings_and_Wages.html
kilua asked: I am sure you have studied mean median mode in "O" levels. A rise in average could mean the top 10% wage are rising rising and pulling up the average while the general populations wage stays stagnant. Could please produce data for median please,
jonst78 replied: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographics_of_Singapore#Growth_in_household_income_by_decile
Household income distribution by Signapore Dept of Statistics.
At the 60% mark, its about 4k per household. Think most of us agree that almost all households in that range have more than one breadwinner.
If you cannot prove ndmxiaomayi wrong, then you cannot sustain your argument.
Answer 1) this issue and
2) Why did you use the mean salary of the entire Singapore as a basis of your argument when the classfication of Singaporeans by income level is obviously appropriate here?
and I will reply your initial questions above.
a)
ndmmxiaomayi - “10 years ago, $2000 per month could make you a middle-class earner. Now, even considering that you are single, you could be struggling to make ends meet. It's slightly above what the lower-income earn, and that often cut them off help.”
Gazelle - “10 years ago, most Singaporeans dont own mobile phone, dont have broadband, dont watch cable TV, dont own Ipod or mp3 player, dont drink coffee at starbucks etc. Is the middle earner struggling to make ends meet or are they struggling because of their new lifestyle?”
The 2 most expensive items in Singapore are housing and car. In 1997, price of HDB flat were at its peak (even in today’s standard) and car prices were about 30% higher than what we have today. Hence if you can survive with $2000 per month 10 years ago as middle class, I find it hard to believe that you could suddenly be struggling to “make ends meet”, I repeat, MAKE ENDS MEET
b) If ndmmxiaomayi could claim that Singaporeans salary has not increase for the past 10 years, dont you think that it will be his or her responsibility to support his/her argument with facts. Or else, anybody could also claim that Singaporeans salary has quadruple over the past 10 years isnt it?
c) If kilua have reasons to believe that the median income of Singaporeans have remained flat for the past 10 years I am sure he/she must have done enough research before making such comment, or else I would classify this as what I call baseless speculation, that deserve no replies.
d) jonst78 -http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographics_of_Singapore#Growth_in_household_income_by_decile
This is a piece of article has been recycled by whiners in this forums for donkey times. And for someone to actually use this to support his argument in this context only shows that his lack the understanding that this article, as it it just a snap shot comparing our country's economic situation from it peak in the mid 90s, to its low in year in 2000. Have you asked yourself
i) When did the internet bubble burst
ii) When did the terrorist hit WTC in NY?
iii) When was the SARS outbreak?
iv) When did Singapore experience the worst recession?
e) I have already highlighted to you that the statistic of Singapore median income is easily available from our government website, and I would like to remind you that your job as a “secretary” is to read those article and compile a summary report so that we could save time in this discussion. (Your ACTION will be appreciated)
(I am sure this is a valid request, however if you incapable for doing it, I would appreciate that you speak less in this thread) -
Originally posted by Rock^Star:
Let me also quote you example of my "friendS".
Let me quote you an example of my friend:
Mr A's profile:
University graduate
IT professional
Worked for 4 years
Take home salary: $2,300/mth
Monthly expenses:
Parents - $800
Food - $400
Transport - $250
Insurance - $300
Leisure (includes gf) - $500
[b]Savings - $50
How is he going to start his own family anytime soon?
What if his parents fall sick and are admitted into hospital?
[/b]
Mr. B,
University graduate
Consulting firm
Worked for 1 years
Take home salary: $3,500/mth
Monthly expenses:
Parents - $400
Food - $400
Transport - $1200
Insurance - $300
Leisure (no gf) - $500
Savings - $700
Mr. C,
University graduate
business development
Worked for 5 years
Take home salary: $4,500/mth
Monthly expenses:
Parents - $400
Food - $400
Transport - $1500
Insurance - $600
Leisure (married) - $500
Savings - $1,100
My questions to you are
a) do you actually think that we would believe your "friend" will disclose information about their income and expenditure in such details?? my gut feeling is that you are either discribing yourself or making story line.
b) now that I have quoted 2 "friends" vs. your Mr. A, hence who's argument carrys more weight?
c) Do you believe what I quoted as much as what you want us to believe what you wrote? -
I hear you, Mr. white. pric.k suckers from wet (due to storm in sydney) pussielandOriginally posted by Coquitlam:Bottomline is there is no hope or future in Sillypore....we all tend to discuss the merits or downside of the powers that be...frankly its so tiring and sickening...better to maintain one's own sanity by just emigrating elsewhere...
This is the best solution I can think of for all fellow sillyporeans....or rather ex-Singaporeans -
The article is reused over and over again because its the latest study by the PAP show the income disparity and the income distribution among the Singaporean Households. A Median or mean income figure does not reveal such information. Decided not to use other sources so as to prevent the credibility of the source from being questioned. Median and Mean figures do not show the percentile or proportion of Singaporean households that are in the low, middle, high income categories.Originally posted by Gazelle:d) jonst78 -http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographics_of_Singapore#Growth_in_household_income_by_decile
This is a piece of article has been recycled by whiners in this forums for donkey times. And for someone to actually use this to support his argument in this context only shows that his lack the understanding that this article, as it it just a snap shot comparing our country's economic situation from it peak in the mid 90s, to its low in year in 2000. Have you asked yourself
Yes I have asked myself those questions, yet to find any official data on no 1 and 4. Fact is that 9/11 and SARs happened post Y2k, which will only contribute to a further drop in income levels at the lower percentiles in more recent years.Originally posted by Gazelle:i) When did the internet bubble burst
ii) When did the terrorist hit WTC in NY?
iii) When was the SARS outbreak?
iv) When did Singapore experience the worst recession?
The snap shot shows an income increase in the top 10 or 20 percents while lower income households get constant drops, during a dipping economy. Which was my point of posting that link.
Well again... Median and Mean figures do not show the percentile or proportion of Singaporean households that are in the low, middle, high income categories. Which is a major concern for many Singaporeans. And the Minister pay hike just aggrievated the situation.Originally posted by Gazelle:e) I have already highlighted to you that the statistic of Singapore median income is easily available from our government website, and I would like to remind you that your job as a “secretary” is to read those article and compile a summary report so that we could save time in this discussion. (Your ACTION will be appreciated)
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Originally posted by spinsugar:
You mean Singapore has no soul, or our political system has no soul? Plus could you name a country where there is no "dirty" polictics?
The government will spare no expense in hunting down and [b]destroying their detractors. It has been the way since they came into power. Their grip and their monopoly on on power, something we citizens played a part in helping them achieve, is so strong that one worries about going against a monster like that. How can we not? But, what can we do? None of us want to be like the student that the army tank rolled over. The fear is not unfounded.
I am at a loss myself. Tired.. tired of this political tomfoolery, tired of people who don't appear to give a damn what happens to this country and leave everything in the "good hands" of Big Brother. Soon, I will have to go, too. To somewhere with a soul.
What can we truly do, Atobe? [/b] -
Singapore's climate and soul is incompatible with many people. Period.Originally posted by Gazelle:You mean Singapore has no soul, or our political system has no soul? Plus could you name a country where there is no "dirty" polictics? -
1) Unemployment rate. Same compared with times of Asian Economic Crisis.
http://www.mom.gov.sg/publish/momportal/en/communities/others/mrsd/statistics/Unemployment.html
If gazelle can go do a search on the internet, especialy at singstat.gov.sg he will find that statistics are mainly based on median.
Statistic dividing the population on their income range is strangely missing. -
You said it.Originally posted by LazerLordz:Singapore's climate and soul is incompatible with many people. Period. -
isnt that subjective?Originally posted by spinsugar:You said it. -
And why have not decided not include housing bill? Your 2 friends must be too poor to get their own flat and have to live off their parents huh.Originally posted by Gazelle:Let me also quote you example of my "friendS".
Mr. B,
University graduate
Consulting firm
Worked for 1 years
Take home salary: $3,500/mth
Monthly expenses:
Parents - $400
Food - $400
Transport - $1200
Insurance - $300
Leisure (no gf) - $500
Savings - $700
Mr. C,
University graduate
business development
Worked for 5 years
Take home salary: $4,500/mth
Monthly expenses:
Parents - $400
Food - $400
Transport - $1500
Insurance - $600
Leisure (married) - $500
Savings - $1,100
My questions to you are
a) do you actually think that we would believe your "friend" will disclose information about their income and expenditure in such details?? my gut feeling is that you are either discribing yourself or making story line.
b) now that I have quoted 2 "friends" vs. your Mr. A, hence who's argument carrys more weight?
c) Do you believe what I quoted as much as what you want us to believe what you wrote?
Throw in kids, housing, your friends will be BROKE.
And how is it you can accuse people of falsehood when you yourself are throwing in such details? What are you? -
our discussion is on wage growth, which started when someone claim that it has remain flat for the past 10 years. You have anything to add to that, other than minister pay rise that we already know?Originally posted by Jontst78:Well again... Median and Mean figures do not show the percentile or proportion of Singaporean households that are in the low, middle, high income categories. Which is a major concern for many Singaporeans. And the Minister pay hike just aggrievated the situation. -
That is because you dont understand the difference between take home salary and gross salary which include CPF.Originally posted by Fingolfin_Noldor:And why have not decided not include housing bill? Your 2 friends must be too poor to get their own flat and have to live off their parents huh. -
So are you saying that as long as the Ministers salaries are raising and contributing to the MEAN Salary per Employee it is ok?Originally posted by Gazelle:our discussion is on wage growth, which started when someone claim that it has remain flat for the past 10 years. You have anything to add to that, or than minister pay rise that we already know?
So are you saying that as long as the Rich becomes RICHER and contributes to the MEAN Salary per Employee it is ok that the poor earns less and less?
Isn't Jonst's question to you related to the discussion on wage growth? What are you trying to say? Do you understand simple english? -
He got what I meant. Why can't youOriginally posted by Gazelle:isnt that subjective?
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Granted, no Government is sqeaky clean, as in no man is created perfect.Originally posted by Gazelle:You mean Singapore has no soul, or our political system has no soul? Plus could you name a country where there is no "dirty" polictics?
Then again, its the level of dirt that the people can put up with. Either the level of dirt has been rising or the level of dirt tolerance has dipped. Personally I think its a little of both.
A democratic or 1st world Government should have their dirt levels low enough to stand up to a certain level of thorough public scrutiny, which has yet to happen in Singapore, and those who have tried have been persecuted or exiled. -
His question to you is that your example of your friend's expenses are that of a single guy, staying together with his mum and pop without a family of his own to support.Originally posted by Gazelle:That is because you dont understand the difference between take home salary and gross salary which include CPF.
Maybe that is what you want all Singaporeans to practise in order to make ends meet? -
Do you have reasons to believe the the dirt in politics can easily be seen from the outside and be quantified?Originally posted by Jontst78:Granted, no Government is sqeaky clean, as in no man is created perfect.
Then again, its the level of dirt that the people can put up with. Either the level of dirt has been rising or the level of dirt tolerance has dipped. Personally I think its a little of both.
A democratic or 1st world Government should have their dirt levels low enough to stand up to a certain level of thorough public scrutiny, which has yet to happen in Singapore, and those who have tried have been persecuted or exiled.
For example, many people here like to compare our minister's salary to president Bush, hence I assume that USA political scene must have less "dirt" than Singapore huh?
If so, then how would you explain the hundreds of billion spending a year to fund the bush administration war game, which lead the country to no where and hundred thousands of death? -
I think the conflict with Iraq is costing more than what ministerial salary raise in SporeOriginally posted by Gazelle:Do you have reasons to believe the the dirt in politics can easily be seen from the outside and be quantified?
For example, many people here like to compare our minister's salary to president Bush, hence I assume that USA political scene must have less "dirt" than Singapore huh?
If so, then how would you explain the hundreds of billion spending a year to fund the bush administration war game, which lead the country to no where and hundred thousands of death? -
Well lets look at the Figures provided by the PAP.Originally posted by Gazelle:our discussion is on wage growth, which started when someone claim that it has remain flat for the past 10 years. You have anything to add to that, other than minister pay rise that we already know?
Avg income - At the 20% mark
1990 - $934/mth
2000 - $1145/mth
Avg income - At the 80% mark
1990 - $3897/mth
2000 - $6316/mth
Well there you go, without even factoring in inflation and rising cost of living, those at the 20% and lower categories have a rather "flat" income growth. Thats in a dipping economy. I don't see any proof otherwise, especially after SARs and 9/11. If you'll plot a graph along the same trajectory till 2006, and factor in the economical growth of the nation, you will not get a substiantial variation in relation to the two groups above. -
Then your figures are incomplete. You did not delineate his entire cost structure completely.Originally posted by Gazelle:That is because you dont understand the difference between take home salary and gross salary which include CPF.
Until you do so, all you are doing is stuffing figures that do not make sense and then claim that he is doing well. -
Gazelle, you have brains, please do use them. Since when did anyone say the US Political scene has no dirt here? Also, how does one make such a huge leap in logic to make such a claim? In fact, it was your "religion" the PAP who made the claim that they do not want a "dirty democracy" when their realpolitik is as bad as any other?Originally posted by Gazelle:Do you have reasons to believe the the dirt in politics can easily be seen from the outside and be quantified?
For example, many people here like to compare our minister's salary to president Bush, hence I assume that USA political scene must have less "dirt" than Singapore huh?
If so, then how would you explain the hundreds of billion spending a year to fund the bush administration war game, which lead the country to no where and hundred thousands of death?
Bad enough you have proven yourself to be a scum, troll or anything, unless you are an idiot enough to add "Village Idiot" to your epitaph, please think before you type. -
I guessed it is no surprise for the past ten years, out of 50000 PR only 8500 became citizenOriginally posted by Coquitlam:Bottomline is there is no hope or future in Sillypore....we all tend to discuss the merits or downside of the powers that be...frankly its so tiring and sickening...better to maintain one's own sanity by just emigrating elsewhere...
This is the best solution I can think of for all fellow sillyporeans....or rather ex-Singaporeans