All out to defame our governement
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Originally posted by Gazelle:a)
ndmmxiaomayi - “10 years ago, $2000 per month could make you a middle-class earner. Now, even considering that you are single, you could be struggling to make ends meet. It's slightly above what the lower-income earn, and that often cut them off help.”
Gazelle - “10 years ago, most Singaporeans dont own mobile phone, dont have broadband, dont watch cable TV, dont own Ipod or mp3 player, dont drink coffee at starbucks etc. Is the middle earner struggling to make ends meet or are they struggling because of their new lifestyle?”
The 2 most expensive items in Singapore are housing and car. In 1997, price of HDB flat were at its peak (even in today’s standard) and car prices were about 30% higher than what we have today. Hence if you can survive with $2000 per month 10 years ago as middle class, I find it hard to believe that you could suddenly be struggling to “make ends meet”, I repeat, MAKE ENDS MEET
$2,000 and own a car? How many do that? Back it up. 10 years ago, at least 20-30% downpayment of the car's price was needed before you could own a car. Moreover, like you said, prices were high.
And buying HDBs of $300,000 - $900,000 in 1997 with just a pay of $2,000? HDB policies limit the purchase of flats to the income one earns. Go read up hdb.gov.sg for more details before you embarass yourself any further.
Do not generalise like what you have done - mistaking the mean income of Singaporeans as if all have benefited. You made this mistake and you still haven't learned, as evident above.
Your replies also do not prove ndmxiaomayi wrong. Just what have you explained above that serves your stand??
b) If ndmmxiaomayi could claim that Singaporeans salary has not increase for the past 10 years, dont you think that it will be his or her responsibility to support his/her argument with facts. Or else, anybody could also claim that Singaporeans salary has quadruple over the past 10 years isnt it?
If you refuse to look at the stats given in this threads by other forumites, I cannot help you either. There is often little aid for those who have 2 eyes but choose to be blind.
c) If kilua have reasons to believe that the median income of Singaporeans have remained flat for the past 10 years I am sure he/she must have done enough research before making such comment, or else I would classify this as what I call baseless speculation, that deserve no replies.
Uh huh....your point is?
d) jonst78 -http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographics_of_Singapore#Growth_in_household_income_by_decile
This is a piece of article has been recycled by whiners in this forums for donkey times. And for someone to actually use this to support his argument in this context only shows that his lack the understanding that this article, as it it just a snap shot comparing our country's economic situation from it peak in the mid 90s, to its low in year in 2000. Have you asked yourself
i) When did the internet bubble burst
ii) When did the terrorist hit WTC in NY?
iii) When was the SARS outbreak?
iv) When did Singapore experience the worst recession?
To clarify, this piece of statistic is not meant to show Singapore's economic situation. Its main purpose is to illustrate average income per household by decile from the lowest 10% to the top 10%. Did you not understand that?
You were harping on the mean income of Singaporeans, insisting that income has increased as a whole. So, to prove that your argument based on this is irrelevant, this statistic of average income per household by decile was shown to you.
It may have surfaced repeatedly in this forum but that doesn't diminish its credibility.
As for your 4 questions above, I query your ability to analyse and link relevant matters together. It does not explain the widening income gap due to economic factors as all the above have affected many Singaporeans, regardless of income level. Moreover, refer to the timeline of events you have provided. They are post 2000, save for point iv).
e) I have already highlighted to you that the statistic of Singapore median income is easily available from our government website, and I would like to remind you that your job as a “secretary” is to read those article and compile a summary report so that we could save time in this discussion. (Your ACTION will be appreciated)
Negative. It's missing from the MOM website, available only in singstat.gov.sg. Since this is a statistic of our workforce, shouldn't it be the other way round?
(I am sure this is a valid request, however if you incapable for doing it, I would appreciate that you speak less in this thread) -
you can suggest whatever you want. They are all BS to me if you cant support your claims. Period!!Originally posted by snow leopard:thank you for drawing support for my argument. "Big Four accounting firms, newbie accountants can draw between $2,800 and $3,200 in the private sector", suggests that new accountants, be it from NTU or SMU can draw between $2,800 and $3,200. -
You and OM can have a tea session in Greater Manchester. I hear the weather is pretty nice this time of the year.Originally posted by Gazelle:you can suggest whatever you want. They are all BS to me if you cant support your claims. Period!!
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Originally posted by LazerLordz:You and OM can have a tea session in Greater Manchester. I hear the weather is pretty nice this time of the year.
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Originally posted by Gazelle:Let me also quote you example of my "friendS".
Mr. B,
University graduate
Consulting firm
Worked for 1 years
Take home salary: $3,500/mth
Monthly expenses:
Parents - $400
Food - $400
Transport - $1200
Insurance - $300
Leisure (no gf) - $500
Savings - $700
Mr. C,
University graduate
business development
Worked for 5 years
Take home salary: $4,500/mth
Monthly expenses:
Parents - $400
Food - $400
Transport - $1500
Insurance - $600
Leisure (married) - $500
Savings - $1,100
My questions to you are
a) do you actually think that we would believe your "friend" will disclose information about their income and expenditure in such details?? my gut feeling is that you are either discribing yourself or making story line.
I was in the financial planning industry. Now, I am training to be a pilot. Do not make wild assumptions. My advice to you.
b) now that I have quoted 2 "friends" vs. your Mr. A, hence who's argument carrys more weight?
c) Do you believe what I quoted as much as what you want us to believe what you wrote?
The examples you have quoted are valid. However, you haven't factored in aging parents and future marriage with kids. A cancer alone costs $100,000 to $200,000 to treat and not everyone is educated enough to buy the right insurance plan.
Not to mention the thousands of poly and ITE grads who start with a pay of only $1,300 to $2,000 a month. -
Ahh....how nice.Originally posted by LazerLordz:You and OM can have a tea session in Greater Manchester. I hear the weather is pretty nice this time of the year. Have a "Deluded Singaporeans Gathering". -
I suppose those two could afford to fly Lionnoisy over as well, on SIA no less.Originally posted by Rock^Star:Ahh....how nice. Have a "Deluded Singaporeans Gathering".
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Originally posted by Gazelle:
This is pathetic.
you can suggest whatever you want. They are all BS to me if you cant support your claims. Period!!
Silence is known to make some deaf, while brightness makes some blind.
After a long journey, a camel can be led to the water but if it cannot and will not drink the water, as it insist it is not water - the only alternative is to let the camel thirst to death slowly.
If after all the best effort that others have put in, and all you see is only BS, it simply shows that you are already in deep sh*t - as much from your own ingenius creation as you accused others.
If you cannot conduct your relationship with others by some degree of honesty, you may soon be treated in silence.
You can go deaf by yourself, while we will blind you with the brightness of Truth. -
Let's put it this way. Gazelle must have been a failure outside and thus too deep in his own shit to admit that he is a failure, hence he is very anal about it. A person who is such a worthless bigot and only good for hurling threats must be definitely lacking in the mind to be such a closed mind fool who simply is not worthy of even being called a human in any aspect of the term.
But then again, a pathetic fool like him really doesn't mean anything. All he has done in this thread is bulldoze in and intimidate everyone into submission. Seriously, there is no point arguing with a bull who doesn't want to admit he is in a china shop. -
He is very good at splitting hair (as Atobe so aptly puts it), but with a meat cleaver instead of a microtome.
I have no doubts that we have not seen the last of him in this thread. He will continue with his, you haven't proven this, you haven't proven that, show us more proof, where is the report, now you have to prove to me this and that again.
Hehehe....... -
He should do himself a favour and stop embarrassing Singapore. That such a bigot could exist in this country is an insult to its pride.Originally posted by maurizio13:He is very good at splitting hair (as Atobe so aptly puts it), but with a meat cleaver instead of a microtome.
I have no doubts that we have not seen the last of him in this thread. He will continue with his, you haven't proven this, you haven't proven that, show us more proof, where is the report, now you have to prove to me this and that again.
Hehehe....... -
Well, it's actually good to hear from the naysayers. At least we know their cognition and we may debate on that.
Singaporeans who monitor this forum can judge for themselves the good and bad work that this govt is doing.
Isn't it? -
Observations on B***S**t Gazelle (everyone is free to include more points):
1. Insists that middle income pay is increasing despite CNA report that middle income wages has stagnated for the past 5 years by economists from the Institute of Policy Studies
2. Economists are stupid people. Gazelle is the smartest, and only words from Gazelle are facts, even reports from CNA or economists are rubbish and BS
3. Insists that rising property prices = people having a better life, despite asset prices making it more expensive for people to own a property
4. The govt is a high performing govt, nevermind the billion dollar losses in Shin Corp, Suzhou, Global Crossing, etc.
5. Paying ministers 3 to 4x above the political market is a smart move, despite himself refusing to pay 50 cents more for quality eggs and insisting on $1.50 eggs, which is only an increase of 33% and not 300-400% above the normal price
6. Ministers are worth the money coz he is paying more GST (duh!)
7. You can own a car and a house with a monthly income of $2000
8. All of us are ungrateful brats who give only $400 allowances to our parents
[/list] -
Before you try acting like a monkey and do what other does, I suggest that you be more careful of what your write here.
Originally posted by soul_rage:
I am looking forward to your reply on point 4, 5 and 6.
Observations on B***S**t Gazelle (everyone is free to include more points):
[b]1. Insists that middle income pay is increasing despite CNA report that middle income wages has stagnated for the past 5 years by economists from the Institute of Policy Studies
No one is talking about the past 5 years, we are talking about the past 10 years from 1997 to 2006 Want proof?
Here is the root of the discussion.
ndmmxiaomayi :
10 years ago, I see the same people earning the same amount.
10 years later, I still see the same people earning the same amount, without all these luxuries and struggling.
Furthermore, I have been asking what is this economist definition of middle class.
2. Economists are stupid people. Gazelle is the smartest, and only words from Gazelle are facts, even reports from CNA or economists are rubbish and BS
Economists are not stupid, it is the people who blindly use their statistic who are stupid.
3. Insists that rising property prices = people having a better life, despite asset prices making it more expensive for people to own a property
Would appreciate if you could find the quote of me saying the above from this thread, or are you simply quoting me out of context from the other thread whereby some snow creature who suggesting that the price of HDB flat should apprecaite inline with his pay package. ie. If his income growth by 15% this year, property price will has to follow and vice versa.
4. The govt is a high performing govt, nevermind the billion dollar losses in Shin Corp, Suzhou, Global Crossing, etc.
I demand you show us the statement of me saying that?
5. Paying ministers 3 to 4x above the political market is a smart move, despite himself refusing to pay 50 cents more for quality eggs and insisting on $1.50 eggs, which is only an increase of 33% and not 300-400% above the normal price
Same and point (4) I demand a quote
6. Ministers are worth the money coz he is paying more GST (duh!)
Same and point (4) I demand a quote
7. You can own a car and a house with a monthly income of $2000
Obviously you are quoting this from my discussion with Rock_Star. By comparing the cost of cars and HDB flat between 1997 and 2007 is an indication of the cost of living in Singapore because that is the 2 most pricey items which could drastically affect the cost of living in Singapore.
As to your questions, my answer to you is YES,
i) You can buy a 3 room hdb flat if you are above 35 years old or you could share a flat with your other siblings, wife, parents as join owner
ii) I would say that buying a car with $2000 is not impossible but very taxing, however in today's price level, a Chery will cost only around $40K (inclusive of COE), and the installment will work out to be less than $500 per month.
8. All of us are ungrateful brats who give only $400 allowances to our parents
Please tell this Mr. B and Mr. C...I am sure there are somewhere out here reading it. I guess you are like Mr. A huh? -
Originally posted by Rock^Star:
$2,000 and own a car? How many do that? Back it up. 10 years ago, at least 20-30% downpayment of the car's price was needed before you could own a car. Moreover, like you said, prices were high.
The purpose of comparing the cost of HDB flat and car from 97 to 06 is because these are the 2 most expensive items, which could drastically affect your spending power and disposable incomes.
Since the purpose of this discussion is to question ndmmxiaomayi statement where someone earning $2000 during 97 is a comfortable middle class earner, and with the same amount in todayÂ’s term you are struggling to make ends meet, even when you are single.
And buying HDBs of $300,000 - $900,000 in 1997 with just a pay of $2,000? HDB policies limit the purchase of flats to the income one earns. Go read up hdb.gov.sg for more details before you embarass yourself any further.
I didnÂ’t know that the cheapest HDB flat in Singapore cost $300K in 97. Do you know that in order for you to own a HDB flat, you have to be married or living with your parents or other siblings etc. As such doesnÂ’t it make sense that you are usually a part owner of the flat? Plus, HDB is only interested in the household income, not your individual income.
Embarass myself? I think I will safe that for you. Rock Star!!
Do not generalise like what you have done - mistaking the mean income of Singaporeans as if all have benefited. You made this mistake and you still haven't learned, as evident above.
Mistaken? Not really, I am simply waiting for you to provide us with your comment on Median wage growth in singapore.
If you refuse to look at the stats given in this threads by other forumites, I cannot help you either. There is often little aid for those who have 2 eyes but choose to be blind.
Who are forumites? whats their name? who do they look like?
Why should I believe what they say since talking here is free and they are not accountable and responsible to ensure that all information they provided are facts and not fabricated BS.
Uh huh....your point is?
I am still waiting for you to check out the median income from our government website. WAITING!!
To clarify, this piece of statistic is not meant to show Singapore's economic situation. Its main purpose is to illustrate average income per household by decile from the lowest 10% to the top 10%. Did you not understand that?
1) We are interested to know if there is infact a wage growth in Singapore for the past 10 years, NOT widening income gap issue as it has been discussed in another thread.
2) I donÂ’t see what is the point using statistic that stops at 2000 to discuss about current issue here in Singapore.
You were harping on the mean income of Singaporeans, insisting that income has increased as a whole. So, to prove that your argument based on this is irrelevant, this statistic of average income per household by decile was shown to you.
It may have surfaced repeatedly in this forum but that doesn't diminish its credibility.
As for your 4 questions above, I query your ability to analyse and link relevant matters together. It does not explain the widening income gap due to economic factors as all the above have affected many Singaporeans, regardless of income level. Moreover, refer to the timeline of events you have provided. They are post 2000, save for point iv).
I assure you that I will give you my thoughts after you give us your comments on Median income growth.
Negative. It's missing from the MOM website, available only in singstat.gov.sg. Since this is a statistic of our workforce, shouldn't it be the other way round?
FYI, those information available on www.singstat.gov.sg are just a compilation of information provided by other ministry, hence whatever you read in there about wages and labor market, are all provide by MOM. To say its missing, it only goes to show how resourceful a person you are.
Since you are capable for finding the median income growth from singstat, could you be kind enough to show us if there is infact a median income growth in Singapore over the past 10 years? PLEASE!! -
no why should I respond to your demands, when you coincidentally develop dementia whenever someone demands your response to issues of contention?Originally posted by Gazelle:Before you try acting like a monkey and do what other does, I suggest that you be more careful of what your write here.
I am looking forward to your reply on point 4, 5 and 6.
I am just giving you a taste of your own B***S**t
You jump to incorrect conclusions on many issues that people discuss here.
Since you responded so aggressively at me, I believe you just got offended, which comes to my point
"Please do some self-reflection on your own actions and behavior, and understand why you are so obnoxious, and totally unwelcome by anyone here." -
and you are a REAL IDIOT. Please refer to maurizo13's post, and my REPOST (for your stupidity) on the CNA report on the past 5 years of wage stagnation amongst the middle income.Originally posted by Gazelle:1. Insists that middle income pay is increasing despite CNA report that middle income wages has stagnated for the past 5 years by economists from the Institute of Policy Studies
No one is talking about the past 5 years, we are talking about the past 10 years from 1997 to 2006 Want proof?
Here is the root of the discussion.
ndmmxiaomayi :
10 years ago, I see the same people earning the same amount.
10 years later, I still see the same people earning the same amount, without all these luxuries and struggling.
Furthermore, I have been asking what is this economist definition of middle class. -
Originally posted by maurizio13:
Gazelle, I am giving you this posting AGAIN (x2). If you STILL cannot see it, then I can't help you any further.
Middle class wage stagnation could lead to social instability
By Pearl Forss, Channel NewsAsia | Posted: 11 January 2007 1856 hrs
SINGAPORE: Middle class wages have been stagnant in the past 5 years, according to economists, and this could lead to social instability.
These concerns were shared by economists at the annual Institute of Policy Studies Singapore Perspectives conference, who also added that the government is taking steps to address the problem.
Economists believe a US economic slowdown in business and consumer spending may cause problems for Singapore, but as Singapore is tops in the ASEAN resilience index, it should be able to weather external shocks, thanks to a diversified economy and strong Asian demand.
They predict that growth going forward will be above 3 to 5 percent.
The long-term growth limits for a mature economy was previously in the 3 to 5 percent range.
However, economists are asking who this growth is for. The income of the bottom 30 percent of the population has fallen. What is more worrying is the fact that the majority of Singaporeans in the middle class has only seen about a one percent increase in their nominal income in the last 5 years.
This is not not just a Singapore problem say economists who point out that stagnant wages is a global problem.
The chief reason for this is globalisation, especially with India and China introducing a large pool of skilled and unskilled labour to compete with the labour forces of industrialised countries.
Singapore is susceptible to this because of its open economy.
Manpower Ministry data shows that 124,000 jobs were created last year and 45 percent of these jobs went to foreigners.
"With the rate of immigration, even among unskilled and semi skilled labour at a rate twice of what we experienced in the 90s, at a rate fastest in the developed world, the question is - does this dampen our real wages as we grow? Does the strategy itself dampen real wages and depress real wages at the low and middle end of the spectrums? They are sacred cows but we should step back and think about them," said Yeoh Lam Keong, Vice President, Economic Society of Singapore.
Another reason cited for middle class wage stagnation is the move by the government to cut CPF employer contribution rates for older workers by 4 percentage points over the last 2 years.
"So if you were a worker in the 50-55 age group, you could have seen your wages fall as much as 10 percent over the last 3 or 4 years. Now with the economy improving, the government could bring that back, the increase is 1 or 2 percent. I'm in support of CPF tinkering but probably it happens far too often, but I think there's probably some justification to look back and think that the restructuring was a bit too aggressive on the CPF side and it has contributed somewhat to a very sandwiched middle class," said Chua Hak Bin, Director, Asia Pacific Econ & Market Analysis, Citigroup Global Markets Singapore.
The government is looking at increasing CPF by 1 to 2 percentage points in 2007.
Economists say workfare should become a more permanent pillar of the economy so as to cushion growing inequality.
- CNA /dt
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You will have admit to being a blind and stupid Gazelle -
HeheheOriginally posted by soul_rage:and you are a REAL IDIOT. Please refer to maurizo13's post, and my REPOST (for your stupidity) on the CNA report on the past 5 years of wage stagnation amongst the middle income.
In another previous post, I had to argue with him regarding the phrase "free market business", he said there's no such phrase because he has never heard of it. After posting links to a news archive, where a journalist used the phrase "free market business", he was still adamant in insisting that no such phrase exist. -
Observations on B***S**t Gazelle (everyone is free to include more points):Originally posted by maurizio13:Hehehe
In another previous post, I had to argue with him regarding the phrase "free market business", he said there's no such phrase because he has never heard of it. After posting links to a news archive, where a journalist used the phrase "free market business", he was still adamant in insisting that no such phrase exist.
1. Insists that middle income pay is increasing despite CNA report that middle income wages has stagnated for the past 5 years by economists from the Institute of Policy Studies
(PROVEN) -
Cant be as pathetic as someone who need to make such wild claims just to make our government look bad.Originally posted by Atobe:This is pathetic.
Silence is known to make some deaf, while brightness makes some blind.
After a long journey, a camel can be led to the water but if it cannot and will not drink the water, as it insist it is not water - the only alternative is to let the camel thirst to death slowly.
If after all the best effort that others have put in, and all you see is only BS, it simply shows that you are already in deep sh*t - as much from your own ingenius creation as you accused others.
If you cannot conduct your relationship with others by some degree of honesty, you may soon be treated in silence.
You can go deaf by yourself, while we will blind you with the brightness of Truth.
1) Singaporeans will not benefit from the IRs
2) the whole objective of IRs is for the government to collect gaming taxes.
3) Singapore economy to will become like Monaco because we have F1
4) The reason why genting won the sentosa IR bid is because of PM Badawi
5) Rich people attracted to singapore is comparable to Singaporeans going to JB to buy cheap grocery and food.
6) Mcdonald market strategy is to get kids addicted to their burger and fries and they will eat till they die.
7) MICE activities in Singapore will not benefit Singaporeans.
8.) Tourists in Singapore, will only spend money at Marina Bay Sands and RWS
9) Countries like Malaysia and Shanghai are losing money hosting F1
10) there were multiple PM Badawi visits to Singapore before and after the Sentosa IR announcement.
12) Chinese cant afford to attend F1 race in Shanghai
13) Malaysians earning in Ringgit cannot afford to attend F1 race in Malaysia
14) Cost of Shanghai F1 facility, US$3,000,000,000 ($3b)
15) Only Singapore Straits Times cover PM Badawi's visit to Singapore in 2006 -
caught you didnt I? Cant cant proof shi.t huh? thats so sad.Originally posted by soul_rage:no why should I respond to your demands, when you coincidentally develop dementia whenever someone demands your response to issues of contention?
I am just giving you a taste of your own B***S**t
You jump to incorrect conclusions on many issues that people discuss here.
Since you responded so aggressively at me, I believe you just got offended, which comes to my point
"Please do some self-reflection on your own actions and behavior, and understand why you are so obnoxious, and totally unwelcome by anyone here."
But on the bright side, you does help contibute to this thread because the subject is defamation, about how people use distorted information to defame others. -
The idiocy of using median without understanding it.
Median means the middle group for a group of items listed in ascending or descending order.
If you have 5 groups of income:
$1,000, $2,000, $3,000, $4,000 & $5,000
Then the median would be the middle value $3,000
If you increase your groups to 9:
$1,000, $2,000, $3,000, $4,000, $5,000, $6,000, $7,000, $8,000 & $9,000.
Then the new median would be $5,000.
Though the median has increased, it does not take into account if there are 1 million people making $1,000 and only 1 person making $9,000. -
obviously you cant count to 10 with your fingers, can you? Didnt I say 10 years?Originally posted by soul_rage:and you are a REAL IDIOT. Please refer to maurizo13's post, and my REPOST (for your stupidity) on the CNA report on the past 5 years of wage stagnation amongst the middle income.
you definitely make a good example of someone who will use nonsensical "BS" just to make our government look bad. Here is a list of those BS you have been bi.tching in the other thread.
1) Protectionism is good for Singapore's future and it promotes investment like IRs
2) Open economy is bad for Singapore and its people
3) There is a 80/20 rule in income distribution
4) If SIA doest threat you well, you should consider leaving the country.
f) By awarding Singapore IRs to both foreign companies, is it an example of protectionism
g) Local and foreign companies offer the same benefits to Singapore's future and economy
h) All casino gaming operators can operate world class IR by themselves
i) Singapore employer are suckers for more expensive Indian FT
j) Government should not outsource project to overseas companies even if it is better value for money.
k) S-league foreign footballers are all highly educated individual
l) You need to be highly educated to be consider a talent.
m) Income gap = living standard
n) Singapore government is pro rich people, not pro business -
could you please help Rock_Star to comments on MOM's median wage growth, i think he desperately needs help. Since you guys are birds with same shi.t stained feathers, i think you guys should alway flock together even if it means flying into a pile of bull s.hit.Originally posted by maurizio13:The idiocy of using median without understanding it.
Median means the middle group for a group of items listed in ascending or descending order.
If you have 5 groups of income:
$1,000, $2,000, $3,000, $4,000 & $5,000
Then the median would be the middle value $3,000
If you increase your groups to 9:
$1,000, $2,000, $3,000, $4,000, $5,000, $6,000, $7,000, $8,000 & $9,000.
Then the new median would be $5,000.
Though the median has increased, it does not take into account if there are 1 million people making $1,000 and only 1 person making $9,000.
PS : dont make any more silly comments about MOM's figure being distorted by minister's salary, because it doesnt.