All out to defame our governement
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You did not answer my question on their pay.Originally posted by january:back again. but will not post too much.
to summarize some of the opposition stance, your perception is that
government power is to centralized among too few leaders and not enough power is given to citizens, middle level leaders, opposition leaders.
There is insufficient independent structures that check on the top leaders themselves.
The goverment uses media to its advantage
The goverment do not admit their mistakes
some of the opposition examples are countries in europe where the government do not have so much power like singapore and their lives are better and less stressful and their people are happier.
However, there are also countries where the government does not have too much power and the country is still in mess also.
Therefore, it does not mean taking some power away from top leaders will mean a more prosperous country.
US has congress that argues with george bush sometimes, but there are still US people complaining a range of issues everyday and think that life is not good in their countries. Problems are not solved just becaues opposition has more power than in case of singapore.
You think they deserve such a large pay rise? And you think that there should not be any checks on such issues?
It has long been known that absolute power corrupts absolutely.
That is why there is the Holy Trinity (of the Parliament, the President, and the CJ).
Controls, checks, and balances is ALWAYS necessary. That is why NKF got screwed, when their checks and balances are not in place.
It is always necessary to have someone to review and someone to approve. Why do we do audits if what you say is true, that we do not need to control and check the top people? -
I have done enough in this forum to show them what you have written in this forum to defame our government. facts are facts, they cant be manipulated so you can stop trying.Originally posted by soul_rage:1) You can't talk for other people. So you are in no position to comment this point. In no way did I say we are anti-PAPs also.
2) This is where you are so wrong. The Govt will NEVER be the PAP. The only reason why we are caught in this stupid situation is that the PAP is running the entire govt (almost), so people tend to say Govt = PAP. For instance, during elections, the PAP CANNOT use HDB upgrading as a carrot because that is taxpayers' money for upgrading. This belongs to the GOVT, NOT the PAP, so the party cannot use the taxpayer's money as their war chest. Every person who pays taxes are entitled to equal rights for upgrading.
3) Did I accuse? Please watch your words carefully. I am stating an opinion, everyone is entitled to their opinions, and its up to you to see with your heart whether my opinion makes sense or not. People who see with their hearts know where the govt is going towards. You, on the other hand, see only with your eyes.
The problem with you is that you tend to point fingers at others, when you are doing the EXACT same thing.
When you say we are emotional, aren't you emotional yourself?
You go about sprouting vulgarities at others, and you tell me you are not emotional? Answer this question on your vulgarities and abuse of other people. Don't avoid this accusation anymore (yes, I AM accusing you coz this is a FACT, YOU ABUSE others).
you want me to present facts of your abuse? There are many many pages in this forum that proves your guilt (since you like proof so much) -
Is it our perception, or is it the truth?Originally posted by january:back again. but will not post too much.
to summarize some of the opposition stance, your perception is that
government power is to centralized among too few leaders and not enough power is given to citizens, middle level leaders, opposition leaders.
There is insufficient independent structures that check on the top leaders themselves.
The goverment uses media to its advantage
The goverment do not admit their mistakes
Name me one example in which our govt admitted their mistake and apologise
Name me one structure to check the leaders
Is it perception, or truth?
Note that I won't argue on your 2nd point, because the PAP is smart enough to officially award the people power (elections), but they make sure they minimize our ability to wield it -
This is not about defaming of govt. This is the points you raised and what I am rebutting. Don't change the topic. You like to do that far too muchOriginally posted by Gazelle:I have done enough in this forum to show them what you have written in this forum to defame our government. facts are facts, they cant be manipulated so you can stop trying.
I will take away 1) and 3) since its a disagreement between what we perceive each other
Answer qn 2 pls. Is Govt = PAP? Are you sure? Look at the example I quote, and answer is Govt = PAP?
2) This is where you are so wrong. The Govt will NEVER be the PAP. The only reason why we are caught in this stupid situation is that the PAP is running the entire govt (almost), so people tend to say Govt = PAP. For instance, during elections, the PAP CANNOT use HDB upgrading as a carrot because that is taxpayers' money for upgrading. This belongs to the GOVT, NOT the PAP, so the party cannot use the taxpayer's money as their war chest. Every person who pays taxes are entitled to equal rights for upgrading.
The problem with you is that you tend to point fingers at others, when you are doing the EXACT same thing.
When you say we are emotional, aren't you emotional yourself?
You go about sprouting vulgarities at others, and you tell me you are not emotional? Answer this question on your vulgarities and abuse of other people. Don't avoid this accusation anymore (yes, I AM accusing you coz this is a FACT, YOU ABUSE others).
pls answer the points in bold. You accuse us, so please look at yourself and answer the qn, and stop beating ard the bush -
True to a certain degree, but not absolute.Originally posted by january:back again. but will not post too much.
to summarize some of the opposition stance, your perception is that
government power is to centralized among too few leaders and not enough power is given to citizens, middle level leaders, opposition leaders.
There is insufficient independent structures that check on the top leaders themselves.
The goverment uses media to its advantage
The goverment do not admit their mistakes
Are there many countries with oppressed people and yet still prosperous? Oppressed in this context meaning a similar one party rule, with opposition oppressed?Originally posted by january:some of the opposition examples are countries in europe where the government do not have so much power like singapore and their lives are better and less stressful and their people are happier.
However, there are also countries where the government does not have too much power and the country is still in mess also.
Therefore, it does not mean taking some power away from top leaders will mean a more prosperous country.
Or rather, in terms of Press Freedom and human rights ranking, are those countries in the same ranking category as Singapore less or more prosperous?
Thats the thing isnt it? Congressmen are voted in by the people, at the very least these congressmen are questioning the president, and the president has to justify his actions and decisions to congress, or he cannot get congressional approval for certain actions.Originally posted by january:US has congress that argues with george bush sometimes, but there are still US people complaining a range of issues everyday and think that life is not good in their countries. Problems are not solved just becaues opposition has more power than in case of singapore.
Which is very different here, where there is strict party discipline, and thus no PAP mp will vote against a bill brought forward by a PAP minister. Instead of the cabinet justifying themselves to Parliament, (which should be the case). The executive uses Parliament to try and pacify the people. -
they are many questions in this forum u noe.Originally posted by soul_rage:You did not answer my question on their pay.
no one can prove whether a pay rise is justified or not because no one can look in the future. -
by jontst
what is considered same ranking catrgory as singapore? is there any sources to see?
Are there many countries with oppressed people and yet still prosperous? Oppressed in this context meaning a similar one party rule, with opposition oppressed?
Or rather, in terms of Press Freedom and human rights ranking, are those countries in the same ranking category as Singapore less or more prosperous -
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Press_Freedom_Index#Worldwide_press_freedom_indexOriginally posted by january:what is considered same ranking catrgory as singapore? is there any sources to see?
Take a look at those that are near Singapore's ranking. 147 (I think we are lower than that now) Ranked below somalia, afghanistan. -
a) Why are you not complaining when M13 is talking about ejeculating sperms into people's mouth? is it because birds of same feathers are suppose to sratch each other's back?Originally posted by soul_rage:[b] Answer qn 2 pls. Is Govt = PAP? Are you sure? Look at the example I quote, and answer is Govt = PAP?
2) This is where you are so wrong. The Govt will NEVER be the PAP. The only reason why we are caught in this stupid situation is that the PAP is running the entire govt (almost), so people tend to say Govt = PAP. For instance, during elections, the PAP CANNOT use HDB upgrading as a carrot because that is taxpayers' money for upgrading. This belongs to the GOVT, NOT the PAP, so the party cannot use the taxpayer's money as their war chest. Every person who pays taxes are entitled to equal rights for upgrading. [/b][/quote]
a) You say you dislike the government, who exactly are you referring to or is it everybody who draw their salary from the government.
b) Are you sure PAP cannot use HDB upgrading as a carrot for sway vote?? Please do some reading on that, because that is suppose to be one big news coming from potong pasir election.
[quote]Originally posted by soul_rage:
When you say we are emotional, aren't you emotional yourself?
You go about sprouting vulgarities at others, and you tell me you are not emotional? Answer this question on your vulgarities and abuse of other people. Don't avoid this accusation anymore (yes, I AM accusing you coz this is a FACT, YOU ABUSE others).
b) If you are referring to the language use against some di.ck headed, white pri.ck sucker from pussieland, who always call us sillyporeans and sinkapore, I think he deserve it, because he has no respect for the people living in this country. Period!! -
Originally posted by Gazelle:
don't understand your (a)
Answer qn 2 pls. Is Govt = PAP? Are you sure? Look at the example I quote, and answer is Govt = PAP?
a) You say you dislike the government, who exactly are you referring to or is it everybody who draw their salary from the government.
b) Are you sure PAP cannot use HDB upgrading as a carrot for sway vote?? Please do some reading on that, because that is suppose to be one big news coming from potong pasir election.
(b) I am asking you, you think its right for them to do that? An election is a political party battle, not Govt vs opposition parties. On all moral and ethical grounds, they CANNOT use taxpayers money (in this case HDB upgrading) as a tool for their political gains, because PAP is PAP, PAP is NOT the Govt.
Of coz they have been using that for so many years, but its becoz even they themselves have messed up their own minds, thinking that PAP = Govt.
If you think its fair and square that they can use upgrading as a tool to sway votes, that by all fairness, the people living in Potong Pasir and Hougang should pay lesser taxes.
Who started all the abuse? M13 reacted becoz you abused people in the 1st place. The root cause was you. You went ard abusing everyone. Read my post on the vampire hunter. You want to kill and bash everyone, as long as they are on the other side of the fence (in relation to you), and you don't care whether they are having good or bad intentions.
Originally posted by soul_rage:
When you say we are emotional, aren't you emotional yourself?
You go about sprouting vulgarities at others, and you tell me you are not emotional? Answer this question on your vulgarities and abuse of other people. Don't avoid this accusation anymore (yes, I AM accusing you coz this is a FACT, YOU ABUSE others).
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a) Why are you not complaining when M13 is talking about ejeculating sperms into people's mouth? is it because birds of same feathers are suppose to sratch each other's back?
b) If you are referring to the language use against some di.ck headed, white pri.ck sucker from pussieland, who always call us sillyporeans and sinkapore, I think he deserve it, because he has no respect for the people living in this country. Period!!
For (b), I don't mind you calling him that, coz I don't think it is right to call Singapore Sillypore as well. Its not the country that is screwed up, its the way it is run that is causing unhappiness. -
sigh...Originally posted by january:they are many questions in this forum u noe.
no one can prove whether a pay rise is justified or not because no one can look in the future.
Do you understand market pay?
If a maid is paid in the market a salary of $350, do you pay $700 or $1050 just coz she is good in her work?
There is a market for everything. You don't pay for an apple the price of a Sony TV.
In the politician's market? Are they overpaid, with regards to the current politician market (all over the world)? I am asking about the NOW, NOT the future.
I will take the liberty to tell you the FACT. Our ministers are paid 3 or 4 x more than George Bush, and you think its justified??? -
so given that singapore is ranked 147, then how do you reason that therefore a low ranking in press freedom leads to not prosperous country?Originally posted by Jontst78:http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Press_Freedom_Index#Worldwide_press_freedom_index
Take a look at those that are near Singapore's ranking. 147 (I think we are lower than that now) Ranked below somalia, afghanistan.
or it leads to what? -
Originally posted by soul_rage:
You said
don't understand your (a)
(b) I am asking you, you think its right for them to do that? An election is a political party battle, not Govt vs opposition parties. On all moral and ethical grounds, they CANNOT use taxpayers money (in this case HDB upgrading) as a tool for their political gains, because PAP is PAP, PAP is NOT the Govt.
Of coz they have been using that for so many years, but its becoz even they themselves have messed up their own minds, thinking that PAP = Govt.
If you think its fair and square that they can use upgrading as a tool to sway votes, that by all fairness, the people living in Potong Pasir and Hougang should pay lesser taxes.
a) Singapore government is not PAP.
b) e.g PAP CANNOT use HDB upgrading as carrot to sway vote
Reality is
a) All ministry in Singapore are run by PAP
b) PAP does use government's money to fund HDB upgrading to sway vote.
Hence I dont understand what is there for your to explain when what you said is fundamentally wrong. -
i know there is a market rate but it does not mean that we necessarily have to follow it. You cannot just look at now. Planning involve long term prediction.Originally posted by soul_rage:sigh...
Do you understand market pay?
If a maid is paid in the market a salary of $350, do you pay $700 or $1050 just coz she is good in her work?
There is a market for everything. You don't pay for an apple the price of a Sony TV.
In the politician's market? Are they overpaid, with regards to the current politician market (all over the world)? I am asking about the NOW, NOT the future.
I will take the liberty to tell you the FACT. Our ministers are paid 3 or 4 x more than George Bush, and you think its justified???
If the pay rise will indeed attract capable people for the country, then it is justified. -
My point, Low press freedom doesn't equate to prosperity, and by looking at the table in the link, the more affluent countries are mostly in the blue zone. Hence, I would be lead to belive that more press freedom is actually a trademark more affluent nations.Originally posted by january:so given that singapore is ranked 147, then how do you reason that therefore a low ranking in press freedom leads to not prosperous country?
or it leads to what? -
Think monopoly ...think ....microsoft ....then apply .......Originally posted by Gazelle:You said
a) Singapore government is not PAP.
b) e.g PAP CANNOT use HDB upgrading as carrot to sway vote
Reality is
a) All ministry in Singapore are run by PAP
b) PAP does use government's money to fund HDB upgrading to sway vote.
Hence I dont understand what is there for your to explain when what you said is fundamentally wrong. -
I think in this context, "cannot" meant, "morally not right?"Originally posted by Gazelle:You said
a) Singapore government is not PAP.
b) e.g PAP CANNOT use HDB upgrading as carrot to sway vote
Reality is
a) All ministry in Singapore are run by PAP
b) PAP does use government's money to fund HDB upgrading to sway vote.
Hence I dont understand what is there for your to explain when what you said is fundamentally wrong.
Hence, its not right for PAP to use HDB upgrading as a carrot to sway votes? -
there are countries that have higher press freedom but their country are not necessary more prosperous or happier.Originally posted by Jontst78:My point, Low press freedom doesn't equate to prosperity, and by looking at the table in the link, the more affluent countries are mostly in the blue zone. Hence, I would be lead to belive that more press freedom is actually a trademark more affluent nations.
This inference of this chart should not be : higher press freedom --> prosperity
For more prosperous country, what are the reasons for their prosperity may not be due to press freedom. It may be due to other reasons.
If you study statistics, such data are called correlational data, it does not imply casuality. -
You are wrong again.Originally posted by Gazelle:You said
a) Singapore government is not PAP.
b) e.g PAP CANNOT use HDB upgrading as carrot to sway vote
Reality is
a) All ministry in Singapore are run by PAP
b) PAP does use government's money to fund HDB upgrading to sway vote.
Hence I dont understand what is there for your to explain when what you said is fundamentally wrong.
a) Ministries are not run by PAP. They are run by the ministers in the govt, whom are coincidentally PAP party members.
b) I am saying, the PAP CANNOT use the funds rightfully because the funds are funded from taxpayers, but because they monopolized the govt, they are doing an immoral thing.
Now I understand why another forum member said you are wrong to equate PAP = Govt. You can't seem to distinguish between the two. -
define capable.Originally posted by january:i know there is a market rate but it does not mean that we necessarily have to follow it. You cannot just look at now. Planning involve long term prediction.
If the pay rise will indeed attract capable people for the country, then it is justified.
Are our current ministers capable? Pls justify in your opinion why you think they are capable.
If your boss asks you, whether you are capable, chances are, almost everyone will say they are capable. (Who will say I am stupid, I am lousy, I am not a good work. Fire me?)
Whether a person is capable, is judged by others on their achievements, and not just hot air from their own mouths. -
This is his orginal post, does it mean morally to you?Originally posted by Jontst78:I think in this context, "cannot" meant, "morally not right?"
Hence, its not right for PAP to use HDB upgrading as a carrot to sway votes?
2) This is where you are so wrong. The Govt will NEVER be the PAP. The only reason why we are caught in this stupid situation is that the PAP is running the entire govt (almost), so people tend to say Govt = PAP. For instance, during elections, the PAP CANNOT use HDB upgrading as a carrot because that is taxpayers' money for upgrading. This belongs to the GOVT, NOT the PAP, so the party cannot use the taxpayer's money as their war chest. Every person who pays taxes are entitled to equal rights for upgrading. [/b] -
Soul_Rage, this is what you wrote, please rememeber and please dont simply add the word, monopolize just because fymk say monopoly and immoral just because someone esle say morally incorrect.Originally posted by soul_rage:You are wrong again.
a) Ministries are not run by PAP. They are run by the ministers in the govt, whom are coincidentally PAP party members.
b) I am saying, the PAP CANNOT use the funds rightfully because the funds are funded from taxpayers, but because they monopolized the govt, they are doing an immoral thing.
Now I understand why another forum member said you are wrong to equate PAP = Govt. You can't seem to distinguish between the two.
That really makes you look pathetic.
2) This is where you are so wrong. The Govt will NEVER be the PAP. The only reason why we are caught in this stupid situation is that the PAP is running the entire govt (almost), so people tend to say Govt = PAP. For instance, during elections, the PAP CANNOT use HDB upgrading as a carrot because that is taxpayers' money for upgrading. This belongs to the GOVT, NOT the PAP, so the party cannot use the taxpayer's money as their war chest. Every person who pays taxes are entitled to equal rights for upgrading. [/b] -
Gazelle, pls don't avoid this portion that you raised.Originally posted by soul_rage:Who started all the abuse? M13 reacted becoz you abused people in the 1st place. The root cause was you. You went ard abusing everyone. Read my post on the vampire hunter. You want to kill and bash everyone, as long as they are on the other side of the fence (in relation to you), and you don't care whether they are having good or bad intentions.
For (b), I don't mind you calling him that, coz I don't think it is right to call Singapore Sillypore as well. Its not the country that is screwed up, its the way it is run that is causing unhappiness.
Pls kindly advise whether you admit that you are wrong, coz there are so many FACTS in this forum of your abuse and ugliness. -
i am not saying that our government is governing the country the right way now. i do not have sufficient enough of governace to know how a country should be governed and what should the country achieve for its people, happiness, money, low crime rate or what?
My stance towards government capability is on 75 % and is based on the fact the singaporean has enough money for food and basic utilities, is able to have savings
some areas of improvement for singapore govt would be to finding ways to make more singaporean wiser and more capable people, finacially knowledgable
and also reducing social ills to a minimum.
assuming that 50 % = neutral
0% = totally oppose govt every policy -
Originally posted by Gazelle:
The problem with you is that you like to grab somebody's words and try to twist them.
Soul_Rage, this is what you wrote, please rememeber and please dont simply add the word, monopolize just because fymk say monopoly and immoral just because someone esle say morally incorrect.
That really makes you look pathetic.
2) This is where you are so wrong. The Govt will NEVER be the PAP. The only reason why we are caught in this stupid situation is that the PAP is running the entire govt (almost), so people tend to say Govt = PAP. For instance, during elections, the PAP CANNOT use HDB upgrading as a carrot because that is taxpayers' money for upgrading. This belongs to the GOVT, NOT the PAP, so the party cannot use the taxpayer's money as their war chest. Every person who pays taxes are entitled to equal rights for upgrading. [/b]
The above statement I made is saying, they CANNOT use HDB upgrading, coz its taxpayers' money, NOT they are NOT using HDB upgrading.
I really think you are pathetic, you have no intuition, you disgrace your parents, and you abuse everyone ard you
be careful of karma. I tend to believe its true.