All out to defame our governement
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Hail Atobe!!!Originally posted by Atobe:By rewarding themselves with obscene wealth that are derived from the hard earned monies of a disadvantaged population, does it need any effort from Singaporeans to defame the Government ?
The government is doing a good job at shooting their own reputation.
It is already an acknowledged fact - from social and economic researchers - that too much Private Monies have been taken out of circulation in the Singapore Economy, and all are being hoarded by the Government; and leaving Singaporeans to struggle with Life in general.
If Singaporeans are comfortable with their general economic, social, political and cultural well being - one will see a natural increase in the birthrates, and there will not be any need for government concern nor any social engineering efforts at new migrants to maintain the ethnic balance.
A declining population itself is already an indication that things are not going well for Singapore - and serves as a clear ''Performance Indicator" of the government.
Performance of the Government is not only judged by numbers, and by the superficial image of progress. The psychological measure of quality of the governed serves as a more accurate indicator of the Singapore progress.
A nation in distress clearly affects performance in all aspects of human endeavour.
Is it not the fault of the government, when those young Citizens who will not marry at the usual age of 28years but will marry later; and for those married will not have a family size similar to those found in the 1940s and 1980s ?
The ''widening gap'' between the Rich and the Poor is no longer a mere ''gap'', it has become a ''chasm'' - especially with the Cabinet Ministers and the Civil Service leading the way to carve a niche for themselves.
The Citizens' ''iron rice bowls'' have been taken away by the Government with the help of the Government controlled National Trade Union Congress, and with the Citizens' iron rice bowl melted at the National Iron and Steel Mill to make new and bigger bowls for the Government.
The Citizens are expected to eat from banana leaves, while the Government eat from polished and jaded iron rice bowls.
Does anyone need to go ''all out to defame the government'' ?
What a masterfully written piece!
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Where were u?
When i posted a topic about the govt should resign based on a good justification,i found on support from most of u all?But now u all criticise the govt so fiercely.Why no support for my proposal???? -
If gov resign who takes overOriginally posted by PRP:Where were u?
When i posted a topic about the govt should resign based on a good justification,i found on support from most of u all?But now u all criticise the govt so fiercely.Why no support for my proposal???? -
I think u overestimate the average Singaporean's confidence level and attitude .. most of us may have alot of criticism of the current govt, but we are not confident enough to call for their resignation.. we are fearful and don't know what it entails. Deep inside, we may even believe them when they say we can't exist without them.Originally posted by PRP:Where were u?
When i posted a topic about the govt should resign based on a good justification,i found on support from most of u all?But now u all criticise the govt so fiercely.Why no support for my proposal????
We don't believe in ourselves. We don't believe in our own people. When we hear of fellow Singaporeans making it big abroad or locally, the 1st thing a cynical Singaporean thinks is "sure anot".. followed by "must be rich/elite lah." Even when it is proven otherwise, instead of admitting our over-judgemental attitudes and being happy for them, we just dismiss it as "some people have all the luck". We think that if we can make it, no one else can make it. And unfortunately that's how we are right now and there's no sign of it changing anytime soon. -
Actually, rather that calling them to resign, I would rather they continue to rule, with a shaky majority in parliament, with the threat of being voted out looming over their heads. Only then will they really have to earn their pay.Originally posted by PRP:Where were u?When i posted a topic about the govt should resign based on a good justification,i found on support from most of u all?But now u all criticise the govt so fiercely.Why no support for my proposal????
Opposition parties will have real motivation and drive to outperform the incumbent ruling party, and the ruling party will have to buck up and attempt to stay ahead of the oppostion in keeping the population happy. Might actually push their performance levels to new heights.
edit : may not be exactly the same, but at least some semblence of job security challenged by letting FTs in through the floodgates. Let them(PAP) really know what it feels like. -
I agree. I never did say I want to kick out PAP.Originally posted by Jontst78:Actually, rather that calling them to resign, I would rather they continue to rule, with a shaky majority in parliament, with the threat of being voted out looming over their heads. Only then will they really have to earn their pay.
Opposition parties will have real motivation and drive to outperform the incumbent ruling party, and the ruling party will have to buck up and attempt to stay ahead of the oppostion in keeping the population happy. Might actually push their performance levels to new heights.
edit : may not be exactly the same, but at least some semblence of job security challenged by letting FTs in through the floodgates. Let them(PAP) really know what it feels like.
I just want more opposition in so that they are less arrogant and really cares for the people -
Originally posted by PRP:
Sometimes when you are less anxious to score a high readership or hits for your thread, you may probably get higher level of participation.
Where were u?
When i posted a topic about the govt should resign based on a good justification,i found on support from most of u all?But now u all criticise the govt so fiercely.Why no support for my proposal????
You should let your effort - in some of your threads that you have started - die a natural death.
It seems ridiculous for you to revive or keep your old threads alive by adding your own comments.
In any case, can we expect the government to resign on its own accord ?
A Political Party that form the government - in a 'democratic process' = will have to resign if it lose the vote of confidence from the citizens in a General Election.
It amazes me the 'wishy-washy' attitude with the ambiguous desire of 'keeping the PAP' in government, while having 'some members from the Alternative Parties' in Parliament - (even 45% of parliament seats) - to act as checks.
If the generation of Singaporean in the 1950s and 1960s had the same kind of mentality - Singapore would not have existed.
LKY was only a young upstart 25 year old - when he first entered politics, yet the generation that existed in the 1950s and 1960s - and during that period, Singaporeans in the voting age were more politically adventurous, more optimistic to a better future then the status of that time, and more daring to face any uncertain future.
Why should this not be the case now ?
Singapore's success is the result of Singaporeans making sacrifices and willing to put their should onto the wheel, and moved in unison for the betterment and benefit of all.
Was it due entirely to the Government, or the Ruling Political Party only ?
With a Government that think only of their bottom-line at the expense of the Citizens, and continuing to think of ways to move private wealth into the deep pockets of the Government - and rewarding themselves with obscene amounts - is there any more equitable distribution to the hardwork and sacrifices made by Singaporeans ?
Are we moving the load and pushing the wheels towards the same goals and for our mutual benefit, or that of the State only ?
Singaporeans - who prefer to ''flip-flop'' and remain ''wishy-washy'', have clearly lost the gusto to make a future for themselves - as the generation of the 1950s and 1960s had made.
These Singaporeans have simply surrendered their 'Political Will' to the Ruling Party to decide the Future.
When there are those amongst Singaporeans TODAY, who are prepared to give up stable careers to enter politics - we should listen to them, and give them and ourselves a chance for a better future; as the generation of the 1950s and 1960s had listened and given a chance to a politically inexperienced 25 year old LKY. -
Originally posted by Atobe:
Hi Atobe
Sometimes when you are less anxious to score a high readership or hits for your thread, you may probably get higher level of participation.
You should let your effort - in some of your threads that you have started - die a natural death.
It seems ridiculous for you to revive or keep your old threads alive by adding your own comments.
In any case, can we expect the government to resign on its own accord ?
A Political Party that form the government - in a 'democratic process' = will have to resign if it lose the vote of confidence from the citizens in a General Election.
It amazes me the 'wishy-washy' attitude with the ambiguous desire of 'keeping the PAP' in government, while having 'some members from the Alternative Parties' in Parliament - (even 45% of parliament seats) - to act as checks.
If the generation of Singaporean in the 1950s and 1960s had the same kind of mentality - Singapore would not have existed.
LKY was only a young upstart 25 year old - when he first entered politics, yet the generation that existed in the 1950s and 1960s - and during that period, Singaporeans in the voting age were more politically adventurous, more optimistic to a better future then the status of that time, and more daring to face any uncertain future.
Why should this not be the case now ?
Singapore's success is the result of Singaporeans making sacrifices and willing to put their should onto the wheel, and moved in unison for the betterment and benefit of all.
Was it due entirely to the Government, or the Ruling Political Party only ?
With a Government that think only of their bottom-line at the expense of the Citizens, and continuing to think of ways to move private wealth into the deep pockets of the Government - and rewarding themselves with obscene amounts - is there any more equitable distribution to the hardwork and sacrifices made by Singaporeans ?
Are we moving the load and pushing the wheels towards the same goals and for our mutual benefit, or [b]that of the State only ?
Singaporeans - who prefer to ''flip-flop'' and remain ''wishy-washy'', have clearly lost the gusto to make a future for themselves - as the generation of the 1950s and 1960s had made.
These Singaporeans have simply surrendered their 'Political Will' to the Ruling Party to decide the Future.
When there are those amongst Singaporeans TODAY, who are prepared to give up stable careers to enter politics - we should listen to them, and give them and ourselves a chance for a better future; as the generation of the 1950s and 1960s had listened and given a chance to a politically inexperienced 25 year old LKY.
[/b]
I do not mean any offence, but I politely disagree with your views above.
The country is now in an economically stable state. The last thing I would want is a revolution (like what the Thais are facing now), and causing Singapore's economy to de-stabilize.
I for one, prefer gradual change and not one that causes too much of an impact to the average Singaporean. And that's to vote for the opposition with our hearts (when we really feel strongly for change), and not vote coz of a HDB upgrade -
Originally posted by soul_rage:
No offence intended with my post, and none taken from anyone who wish to hold a different position.
Hi Atobe
I do not mean any offence, but I politely disagree with your views above.
The country is now in an economically stable state. The last thing I would want is a revolution (like what the Thais are facing now), and causing Singapore's economy to de-stabilize.
I for one, prefer gradual change and not one that causes too much of an impact to the average Singaporean. And that's to vote for the opposition with our hearts (when we really feel strongly for change), and not vote coz of a HDB upgrade
Just my take on the issues posted to date and all the fretting and pain that persist and building up since 1957 - when a 25 year-old LKY and his contemporaries stepped into the political limelight at a young age.
We should give ourselves a break, and trust ourselves more - ourselves including those who dared to quit a stable career to enter politics.
The young Singaporeans in the Alternative Parties today are more mature than the age when LKY started back in 1957. While LKY was only 25 years and a ''smart mouthed lawyer'', those in the Alternative Parties today are in their mid-Thirties and similarly well grounded with professional tertiary education.
Ironically, those in the Ruling Party today - especially the newbies - are similarly in their early thirties and mid-forties. Their performance on the job are guided by the ''old hands''. This will mean that Singaporeans will continue to experience the same problems that will never be resolved with the ''same pair of old hands at the helm''.
As the proverbial saying goes : ''Old Dogs cannot learn new tricks''.
If the ''Old Hands at the Helm'' cannot learn 'new tricks' to solve the new or even the old problems, and insist on guiding the newbies in their work, how much success can be expected of ''old ways facing new challenges''.
While any blind gung-ho charge into the unknown is not being encouraged, enough has been heard and seen to confirm that there are credible persons in at least one Alternative Party to form a new government.
The only problem is not with the inexperience of newbies forming a surprise New Government, but the challenge of 'De-Politicizing the control lines' to the current Ruling Party being voted out of office - as they have enough time to plant their own Relations and Cronies into the Civil Service and every Government Linked Companies.
Even the Elected President is their own Man.
Under such circumstances, change will surely result in up-heavals - similar to the periods when dictatorial governments were dislodged from power in South Korea and Taiwan.
In both countries, change has meant improvement for the lives of the people. -
Originally posted by Atobe:
So well written, it's POETIC!
No offence intended with my post, and none taken from anyone who wish to hold a different position.
Just my take on the issues posted to date and all the fretting and pain that persist and building up since 1957 - when a 25 year-old LKY and his contemporaries stepped into the political limelight at a young age.
We should give ourselves a break, and trust ourselves more - ourselves including those who dared to quit a stable career to enter politics.
The young Singaporeans in the Alternative Parties today are more mature than the age when LKY started back in 1957. While LKY was only 25 years and a ''smart mouthed lawyer'', those in the Alternative Parties today are in their mid-Thirties and similarly well grounded with professional tertiary education.
Ironically, those in the Ruling Party today - especially the newbies - are similarly in their early thirties and mid-forties. Their performance on the job are guided by the ''old hands''. This will mean that Singaporeans will continue to experience the same problems that will never be resolved with the ''same pair of old hands at the helm''.
As the proverbial saying goes : ''Old Dogs cannot learn new tricks''.
If the ''Old Hands at the Helm'' cannot learn 'new tricks' to solve the new or even the old problems, and insist on guiding the newbies in their work, how much success can be expected of ''old ways facing new challenges''.
While any blind gung-ho charge into the unknown is not being encouraged, enough has been heard and seen to confirm that there are credible persons in at least one Alternative Party to form a new government.
The only problem is not with the inexperience of newbies forming a surprise New Government, but the challenge of [b]'De-Politicizing the control lines' to the current Ruling Party being voted out of office - as they have enough time to plant their own Relations and Cronies into the Civil Service and every Government Linked Companies.
Even the Elected President is their own Man.
Under such circumstances, change will surely result in up-heavals - similar to the periods when dictatorial governments were dislodged from power in South Korea and Taiwan.
In both countries, change has meant improvement for the lives of the people.
[/b] -
Thanks for the replies to my msg.So almost of all of u don't want the PAP to go.If so,then don't criticise it so fiercely and try to help it to run the country better.Shouldn't this be ?
Even if PAP resigned,there would be a general election and it could still win the election if no strong opposition exists.I say they should resign based on a right principle. -
There's a difference between wanting to "see more opposition" and "wanting PAP out".Originally posted by PRP:Thanks for the replies to my msg.So almost of all of u don't want the PAP to go.If so,then don't criticise it so fiercely and try to help it to run the country better.Shouldn't this be ?
Even if PAP resigned,there would be a general election and it could still win the election if no strong opposition exists.I say they should resign based on a right principle.
In reality, I do not see PAP resigning of their own accord.
Fierce criticism must continue. I have asked you before, "Criticism or solution comes first? Solution before criticism or criticism before solution?"
It's not that solutions have never been posted. Have you read them, among them, those by Robertteh and Atobe? -
When government sold assets to Singapore Power or MediaCorp and MediaWork, assets like substations, electrical network and cabling, licence fees for radios and televisions transferred over were actually owned by the citizens but the government profited from such sale and kept all the sale profits to itself and left it to SP and MediaCorp to charge for lands, assets and depreciation already owned and paid by people all over again.
Isn't it obvious Utility costs have to keep going up and pay double on substations, pylons etc. once again?
The current Networking charge is S$0.06-S$0.12 per kilowatt-hour. No wonder businesses in Singapore cannot compete with those in other countries like in Korea or Thailand as they do not suffer such double charge on assets.
Minus these networking costs the average Utility costs should be less than S$0.09 per kilowatt. Just imagine the windfall profits made by the government which does not even appear on the annual budget surplus.
That is why PM Lee was able to present a deficit or smaller surplus to parliament to justify further GST increases based purely on creative accounting like the NKF.
It is sinful to make profits non-stop from sale of assets to GLCs and force GLC to double-charge the citizens.
Singapore has lost it competitiveness mainly due to this type of creative accounting on lands and assets which give excuses to government and its GLCs to raise fees and charges. -
Originally posted by PRP:
What does your parents do when you will not listen to them after they nag you long enough ?
Thanks for the replies to my msg.So almost of all of u don't want the PAP to go.If so,then don't criticise it so fiercely and try to help it to run the country better.Shouldn't this be ?
Will they not ''scream at you more fiercely'' ?
As a child, if your parents do not listen to you - will you also not ''scream more loudly'' ?
Every Singaporean - who has a heart for Singapore - has spoken openly and contributed honestly from their hearts; some had even gone the extra kilometer by quitting their comfort zone and entered politics : only to be ridiculed and subject to organised adverse publicity and pressures from the government controlled machineries.
No one is safe from a Political Party that will use any means to 'fiercely' hold on to its monopolistic grip on Power that it has accumulated over 50 years of unopposed supremacy.
Even those who have given quiet background support were politically framed as "Marxist Conspirators'' - abused by the Internal Security Act, and their Political Rights - as Singapore Citizens - permanently removed; which suits the Ruling Party nicely as credible political threats have been removed.
Under such circumstances, should we not criticize more fiercely, or do you prefer to talk to yourself in your ''own threads'', or be politically impotent permanently ?
Unfortunately, from entire track record of the past 50 years - is there any ''right principle'' in the kind of ''Politics'' practised by the Ruling Party ?
Even if PAP resigned,there would be a general election and it could still win the election if no strong opposition exists.I say they should resign based on a right principle. -
Originally posted by Atobe:
I understand to an extent where you are coming from. It is indeed frustrating that everyone being selected into the party is an image of you-know-who.
No offence intended with my post, and none taken from anyone who wish to hold a different position.
Just my take on the issues posted to date and all the fretting and pain that persist and building up since 1957 - when a 25 year-old LKY and his contemporaries stepped into the political limelight at a young age.
We should give ourselves a break, and trust ourselves more - ourselves including those who dared to quit a stable career to enter politics.
The young Singaporeans in the Alternative Parties today are more mature than the age when LKY started back in 1957. While LKY was only 25 years and a ''smart mouthed lawyer'', those in the Alternative Parties today are in their mid-Thirties and similarly well grounded with professional tertiary education.
Ironically, those in the Ruling Party today - especially the newbies - are similarly in their early thirties and mid-forties. Their performance on the job are guided by the ''old hands''. This will mean that Singaporeans will continue to experience the same problems that will never be resolved with the ''same pair of old hands at the helm''.
As the proverbial saying goes : ''Old Dogs cannot learn new tricks''.
If the ''Old Hands at the Helm'' cannot learn 'new tricks' to solve the new or even the old problems, and insist on guiding the newbies in their work, how much success can be expected of ''old ways facing new challenges''.
While any blind gung-ho charge into the unknown is not being encouraged, enough has been heard and seen to confirm that there are credible persons in at least one Alternative Party to form a new government.
The only problem is not with the inexperience of newbies forming a surprise New Government, but the challenge of [b]'De-Politicizing the control lines' to the current Ruling Party being voted out of office - as they have enough time to plant their own Relations and Cronies into the Civil Service and every Government Linked Companies.
Even the Elected President is their own Man.
Under such circumstances, change will surely result in up-heavals - similar to the periods when dictatorial governments were dislodged from power in South Korea and Taiwan.
In both countries, change has meant improvement for the lives of the people.
[/b]
Yet, as a romantic, I believe that PAP did not start out like that. The aspirations of the past would have been more noble and self-sacrificing. Its becoz they have been in absolute power for so long, that they have become complacent and have stopped genuinely caring for the people.
All it takes is for a jolt of reality to hit the dominant party, and I believe they will wake up and have a change of mentality. -
I disagree with the rest on the statement above as well.Originally posted by PRP:Thanks for the replies to my msg.So almost of all of u don't want the PAP to go.If so,then don't criticise it so fiercely and try to help it to run the country better.Shouldn't this be ?
Even if PAP resigned,there would be a general election and it could still win the election if no strong opposition exists.I say they should resign based on a right principle.
If there are no voices to remind them of their wrongs NOW, they will only get more and more complacent.
I give credit to the PAP for bringing Singapore to this level in the world. The past leaders were really good visionaries. That's why I hesitate to say the party should be kicked out.
As for Singapore's current state, all I would like to say is, it takes years and years and years to build it to the present conditions (just as it takes years to build a good reputation), but all it takes is just a split second to destroy everything. -
I want the PAP to go. Reasons, change is difficult within an organisation like PAP, it has a long history and tradition, sometimes when things worked so long the way it used to, leaders are less inclined to change things. Having a dominant leader within the organisation means, change will never happen. Has it happened in North Korea? Remember what the old man said, he will do whatever he wants or like, whether you like it or not, it's not his problem. With leaders like that, how will change ever come.Originally posted by PRP:Thanks for the replies to my msg.So almost of all of u don't want the PAP to go.If so,then don't criticise it so fiercely and try to help it to run the country better.Shouldn't this be ?
Even if PAP resigned,there would be a general election and it could still win the election if no strong opposition exists.I say they should resign based on a right principle.
No strong opposition will ever exist with them in power. They control every aspect of life in Singapore, the way you think, what you read in the newspaper, what you see in the news; the power to bankrupt any potential opposition MPs.
Change will only come from the people, not the leaders, because they adopt a top down approach to governance. -
Originally posted by soul_rage:
Some of us have fore-fathers, who took a quantum leap of faith - in leaving their comfort zone in the coastal province of China - to start a new life in Singapore.
I understand to an extent where you are coming from. It is indeed frustrating that everyone being selected into the party is an image of you-know-who.
Yet, as a romantic, I believe that PAP did not start out like that. The aspirations of the past would have been more noble and self-sacrificing. Its becoz they have been in absolute power for so long, that they have become complacent and have stopped genuinely caring for the people.
All it takes is for a jolt of reality to hit the dominant party, and I believe they will wake up and have a change of mentality.
Later, some of us have grandfathers or fathers, who put their faith in a young, upstart, smart-mouthed 25 year old lawyer, and trusted him with their Future - AFTER having listened to his speeches, and believing that he will hold true to his words in leading this loose community away from foreign Colonial Rule.
Over the last fifty years - since 1957 - and without any alternative challenges from any Alternative Political Parties - (the last one having walked out in disgust with the methods employed by the Ruling Party) - it left a young 25 year old an unchallenged opportunity to tinker at the entire government structure to suit his own fancy.
Were the trust of our fore-fathers misplaced in the young 25 year old; or has the 25 year old grown into an unrecognised stature - having been worn by the political storms with unbridled political power - that is nearly similar to the face of the Colonial Master ?
Shades of Napolean in the image of the Farmer in the Animal Farm. -
The PAP govt will go one day.The only question is when and whether in your life time.When the time is up,it will have to go.So we all happily anticpate the day to come & we do our part today.
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Atobe,
Whether PAP resigned or not,everyone should call or support for its resignation if there is justification for it.Am i right? -
exactly what PAP wants you to believe - you ungrateful Singaporeans will go astray without lim beh. I would much rather rely on a democratic system than a ruling party literally unchecked.Originally posted by soul_rage:....
As for Singapore's current state, all I would like to say is, it takes years and years and years to build it to the present conditions (just as it takes years to build a good reputation), but all it takes is just a split second to destroy everything.
have faith in democracy, soul_rage, the ride may be bumpy at times but we wont be returned to stone age. -
I beg to differ with your view.Originally posted by maurizio13:I want the PAP to go. Reasons, change is difficult within an organisation like PAP, it has a long history and tradition, sometimes when things worked so long the way it used to, leaders are less inclined to change things. Having a dominant leader within the organisation means, change will never happen. Has it happened in North Korea? Remember what the old man said, he will do whatever he wants or like, whether you like it or not, it's not his problem. With leaders like that, how will change ever come.
No strong opposition will ever exist with them in power. They control every aspect of life in Singapore, the way you think, what you read in the newspaper, what you see in the news; the power to bankrupt any potential opposition MPs.
Change will only come from the people, not the leaders, because they adopt a top down approach to governance.
10 years ago in Taiwan,KMT is untouchable but it only needs a spark,that had ended Chiang's dynasty which would be very similiar to Lau Lee's family in the future
But I am crossing my figures that a good gov will succeed in after the Lee's dynasty in Sinkapore finished after 10 years. when I may return to my homeland!!!
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Originally posted by PRP:
Firstly, can anyone get together in an organised manner without the ISD interfering and plug the effort ?
Atobe,
Whether PAP resigned or not,[b]everyone should call or support for its resignation if there is justification for it.Am i right?[/b]
Secondly, can the numbed minds of Singaporeans be moved to support a rally to call for the Ruling Party to resign ?
Thirdly, will the Ruling Party listen and respond to our request for them to resign - when they have already been entrenched into a cushy well paying jobs that have to be lost if they resigned; and when they can so simply ignore you, and have the Police deal with your illegal act of assembly and seditious act of organising a vocal revolt against an elected government ?
Everthing has its time and place - give someone enough rope, and it will hang that someone - there is no difference with this Ruling Party that forms the current government. It is slowly beginning the process of hanging itself. -
VERY WELL said, and it is also what I believe they will do - hang themselves with all the rope with give them...!Originally posted by Atobe:Firstly, can anyone get together in an organised manner without the ISD interfering and plug the effort ?
Secondly, can the numbed minds of Singaporeans be moved to support a rally to call for the Ruling Party to resign ?
Thirdly, will the Ruling Party listen and respond to our request for them to resign - when they have already been entrenched into a cushy well paying jobs that have to be lost if they resigned; and when they can so simply ignore you, and have the Police deal with your illegal act of assembly and seditious act of organising a vocal revolt against an elected government ?
Everthing has its time and place - give someone enough rope, and it will hang that someone - there is no difference with this Ruling Party that forms the current government. It is slowly beginning the process of hanging itself. -
Surely,there are not just 10+ persons who can run this country.I believe there are some more ppl who can run the govt comeptently.If the govt resigns,the competent ppl can take over.Originally posted by NewAge:If gov resign who takes over