No Singaporean will go Hungry
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Fine, stop all water and food supplies islandwide if you dare.
Just a joke. -
Singaporeans and foreign talents (FT) do not have the same equal footing. Singaporeans have family ties here, they intend to live here for the longer term and make financial committments like buying a house.Originally posted by deathbait:That first statement of yours is so commonplace I've grown tired of pointing it out as a fallacy. While it is true that the rich make money easier, they also lose it alot easier too. Meanwhile, the poor may have a steep slope to climb, but it's still surmountable.
If the locals here are equally capable, and willing to be paid the same wages, they would obviously have been in equal competition with the FT. But that is not the case. Want to know why?
Because Singaporeans are arrogant. Just count the number of times you've heard of a graduate entering the market, refusing to accept jobs below his income expectation.
As for work quality, you guys who work can attest to the much better work ethic the average FT has over the Singaporean. In a free economy, who's going to pick the Singaporean?
Don't blame the inflow of FT for 'stealing' your jobs. It's just not true. The jobs were never yours in the first place for them to steal. If you prove yourself incapable of competing in a free economy, you are the weakest link.
How does a Singaporean compete with FTs? They can squeeze 10 person to an apartment to save money. Are the average Singaporean family able to do that? Can you sqeeze your parents and your sister and yourself into a room and lease out the other 2 rooms of your HDB? These FTs have lower expectations on everything in life, from hygiene, to quality of food and comforts.
These FTs have families back home, SGD 100 they remit back to China become RMB 500. A frugal family in China can probably survive on that for a month, give the same amount of SGD 100 to your dad or mom, see how long it last in Singapore. Singaporean's fixed cost is high because our roots and families are here.
The FTs does not need to pay CPF, which effectively wipes off 20% of a Singaporean's cashflow.
A Singaporean graduate after completing University education has debt obligations to meet, family to support and a certain level of living standard to maintain.
A Chinese FT University education in China is much cheaper compared to Singapore, therefore they have no debt, or less debt to repay.
Are you sure the Chinese has better work ethics, or are they just willing to accept a higher level of risk?
Take for instance the numerous cases of tainted food and hazardous products. Doesn't it show that they are willing to take in more risk and compromise on quality, health and safety.
If you buy a bowl of noodles in a canteen from China and a bowl of noodles in a canteen in Singapore. You will notice the vast differences in the standard of hygiene.
Labour is not 100% mobile even in a free economy, as labourers have emotional attachments to their country and people around him. It is not easy for everybody to move to a certain country and adapt. The reason why our economy is so open to FTs is caused by our government's policy of increasing the FT population. They no doubt have their reason, which I think is mainly economic and political in nature. Economically, they know that price is always sticky downwards, therefore their intention of importing more foreign talents is to push down price levels. But it seems like their plan to decrease price levels have failed, because we have seen then astronomical increases in ministerial salaries. If price levels have indeed gone down due to competition between foreign talents and Singaporeans, there would be no need to increase Ministerial salaries. In fact ministerial salaries should have been reduced, instead it went up.
I always think that a government's prime directive is to protect its' citizens, whether it be security, economic or otherwise. Other countries tend to have a strict quota regarding foreign immigrants so as not to over expand and put a strain on other resources. Though the import of FTs will increase the overall GDP, but GDP per capita will drop due to more inefficiencies (marginal product of labour falls).
By increasing FTs at such a dramatic rate only increase inflation, because there are more competition for resources. e.g. such as the recent increases in property prices, though they bode well for Singaporean land owners and HDB owners. Like your tragedy of the commons (dissipation of rents), with so many foreigners competing for resources with the locals, it will lead to inflation and substandard of living for locally bred Singaporeans. You can more or less see such effects in our overcrowded MRT system during peak hours and sometimes during off peak hours.
I always believe in one concept, one cake can only feed so many people, if the government decides to take a bigger piece (by increasing their own salaries), then there will be less to go around. -
Well, they come and go, like people with no stake.Originally posted by qlqq9:If you notice, time and again we have people like Mat Toro, and now this chap called deathbait to defend the beloved PAP. Wow, wait and see who is next.
Frankly, if I were a new immigrant that just settled down, seeing these won't give me a good impression of the ruling party's policies, given their supporters/fans/apologetics' showcase of their policy explanations. -
well-said. Limited resources such as HDB flats, transportation service, congested traffic etc. More FTs mean more competition for these resources. No wonder the HDB flats prices have risen significant for the past few years.Originally posted by maurizio13:Singaporeans and foreign talents (FT) do not have the same equal footing. Singaporeans have family ties here, they intend to live here for the longer term and make financial committments like buying a house.
How does a Singaporean compete with FTs? They can squeeze 10 person to an apartment to save money. Are the average Singaporean family able to do that? Can you sqeeze your parents and your sister and yourself into a room and lease out the other 2 rooms of your HDB? These FTs have lower expectations on everything in life, from hygiene, to quality of food and comforts.
These FTs have families back home, SGD 100 they remit back to China become RMB 500. A frugal family in China can probably survive on that for a month, give the same amount of SGD 100 to your dad or mom, see how long it last in Singapore. Singaporean's fixed cost is high because our roots and families are here.
The FTs does not need to pay CPF, which effectively wipes off 20% of a Singaporean's cashflow.
A Singaporean graduate after completing University education has debt obligations to meet, family to support and a certain level of living standard to maintain.
A Chinese FT University education in China is much cheaper compared to Singapore, therefore they have no debt, or less debt to repay.
Are you sure the Chinese has better work ethics, or are they just willing to accept a higher level of risk?
Take for instance the numerous cases of tainted food and hazardous products. Doesn't it show that they are willing to take in more risk and compromise on quality, health and safety.
If you buy a bowl of noodles in a canteen from China and a bowl of noodles in a canteen in Singapore. You will notice the vast differences in the standard of hygiene.
Labour is not 100% mobile even in a free economy, as labourers have emotional attachments to their country and people around him. It is not easy for everybody to move to a certain country and adapt. The reason why our economy is so open to FTs is caused by our government's policy of increasing the FT population. They no doubt have their reason, which I think is mainly economic and political in nature. Economically, they know that price is always sticky downwards, therefore their intention of importing more foreign talents is to push down price levels. But it seems like their plan to decrease price levels have failed, because we have seen then astronomical increases in ministerial salaries. If price levels have indeed gone down due to competition between foreign talents and Singaporeans, there would be no need to increase Ministerial salaries. In fact ministerial salaries should have been reduced, instead it went up.
I always think that a government's prime directive is to protect its' citizens, whether it be security, economic or otherwise. Other countries tend to have a strict quota regarding foreign immigrants so as not to over expand and put a strain on other resources. Though the import of FTs will increase the overall GDP, but GDP per capita will drop due to more inefficiencies (marginal product of labour falls).
By increasing FTs at such a dramatic rate only increase inflation, because there are more competition for resources. e.g. such as the recent increases in property prices, though they bode well for Singaporean land owners and HDB owners. Like your tragedy of the commons (dissipation of rents), with so many foreigners competing for resources with the locals, it will lead to inflation and substandard of living for locally bred Singaporeans. You can more or less see such effects in our overcrowded MRT system during peak hours and sometimes during off peak hours.
I always believe in one concept, one cake can only feed so many people, if the government decides to take a bigger piece (by increasing their own salaries), then there will be less to go around. -
FTs I come across don't think well of the way PAP is treating the locals. Almost all FTs who talked to me said they will just earn $$$$ and get out of Singapore when it is time they will go back. EVen the PRCs are not interested to convert to citizens, they are happy with their govt in China. PRCs are happy that their China govt take care of them.Originally posted by LazerLordz:Well, they come and go, like people with no stake.
Frankly, if I were a new immigrant that just settled down, seeing these won't give me a good impression of the ruling party's policies, given their supporters/fans/apologetics' showcase of their policy explanations. -
More like the PRCs are using Singapore as a stopover to western nations such as the USA.Originally posted by qlqq9:FTs I come across don't think well of the way PAP is treating the locals. Almost all FTs who talked to me said they will just earn $$$$ and get out of Singapore when it is time they will go back. EVen the PRCs are not interested to convert to citizens, they are happy with their govt in China. PRCs are happy that their China govt take care of them.
Best is to get a Singapore passport. Easier for them to gain access into the western nations. -
If our government has foresight, then alot of economic wrongs would not have happened.Originally posted by deathbait:The last government I know of that took that approach you recommend was feudal Japan. They kinda got overtaken, overrun and overthrown. In that order.
Foresight is just as important as hindsight.
During the early years, our government's reliance on foreign direct investments (FDI), instead of building up our own industries. Our MM (then PM) decided to take the blue pill (easy pill) to heal all our woes, which resulted in severe economic hardship when these FDIs decided to pull out of Singapore to China. On the other hand, Hong Kong promoted more free spirited entrepreneurism which resulted in lots of home grown industries.
Till today, our government is still competing on the wrong level. Instead of looking into innovations, they want to compete on price, which is losing strategy because Singapore cannot compete with China in terms of price. Only way is R&D and product innovation, but our system of authoritarianism does not promote free spirited entrepreneurism, because nobody is willing to take risk to explore alternatives.
Take for example, bungee jumping. Would such a thrill ever be discovered by a Singaporean in Singapore? Never!!! Why??? It's because before you take on the free spirited exploration, you will be contemplating about the different laws you would be breaking and be put in jail for many years. Thus innovation will never happen in Singapore unless regime change happens. So for the better part of the next 10-20 years, we will be competing with the world economy in terms of price rather than quality and innovation.
Free spirited entrepreneurism needs freedom and democracy to grow, Singapore just doesn't have the two. -
So what you are advocating is higher elderly unemployment in favour of foreigners?Originally posted by deathbait:Aging population. Import labour.
Problem. Solution.
Don't get the two mixed up.
We import more FTs to displace our elderly, so that the elderly can be left without jobs and livelihood.
Aging population needs food too!
Remember this!!!
Singapore is not a welfare state!!!
Doesn't matter if you are old or unemployed, the government is still not going to put food on your table.
By getting these elderly unemployed, has resulted in these elderly resorting to scavenging for drink cans, selling tissue paper and begging.
By importing FTs to solve our elderly problems is curing a long term pain with a short term anaesthesia, after the anaesthesia wears out the pain will intensify many times over.
Most organic system adapt to changes, but our rigid government has decided to take a more drastic short term solution. -
To get Singapore passport, one has to convert to Singapore citizen. All those FT PRCs I come across don't wanna become Singapore citizens.Originally posted by Spartans:More like the PRCs are using Singapore as a stopover to western nations such as the USA.
Best is to get a Singapore passport. Easier for them to gain access into the western nations. -
The old are useless lah, we use them like dogs and laptops.Originally posted by eagle:
Imported labour once old, throw them out ah
If they are no longer useful or obsolete, we just throw them out and get new ones. -
History has proven that, they are more interested in monetary rewards than helping the poor and under-privilege of Singapore.Originally posted by deathbait:The price of growth really. They made the decision to promote rapid growth and this is the aftermath.
Thing is, we can't go ahead and take the rapid improvements in sg for granted, and turn around and blame the government for creating this wake of poverty destruction.
Still, it's their mess to clear, and I have every faith that they will do it. But time is as always, too short.
Remember this......
If you don't pay the Ministers the salaries they want, they will leave for the private sector.
What kind of honourable person who has the intention of helping others put monetary gains ahead of helping others?
It's like going to an old folks home and telling them to pay you your market salary before you help them.
Or.
Maybe it's like, they go over to old folks home and tell the old folks to pay them their market rate before any help is rendered to them.
A person who attaches monetary value to his committment certainly tells alot about the person. -
I think you should stop forcing people to agree with your points when they have not done so.Originally posted by deathbait:But yet you already did.
You sound desperate to gain a feather in your hat.
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Originally posted by HyperFocal:You guys are either on shifts or have evolved since Mat Toro days...
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Do you agree that the proponents of globalization resides in the comparative advantages of free trade?Originally posted by deathbait:And these pay cuts you speak of. Are they cut to the point where basic survival is impossible?
If the global economy supports X wages for a certain job, and you were being paid X+Y for doing it before the country embraced the global market, you are not getting a pay cut. Your pay is regressing to mean. Meaning you were OVERPAID before.
Actually, the government is to blame here, but no one pointed this one out. It should not have allowed the worker to be overpaid in the first place. This has created a "shock" in the worker's finances when the pay finally balances back to normal
Homogenous factors of production and products.
Else it would be difficult to justify a global average wage rate.
I doubt Singaporeans are overpaid, if Singaporeans are overpaid, I guess you would have implied that "the government overcharges for it's HDB, PUB, MRT, etc".
If Singaporeans are overpaid, how does the government justify charging such a high price for it's services? -
Yes, in a way he is right to say Singaporeans are overpaid. The leechgime is overpaid.Originally posted by maurizio13:Do you agree that the proponents of globalization resides in the comparative advantages of free trade?
Homogenous factors of production and products.
Else it would be difficult to justify a global average wage rate.
I doubt Singaporeans are overpaid, if Singaporeans are overpaid, I guess you would have implied that "the government overcharges for it's HDB, PUB, MRT, etc".
If Singaporeans are overpaid, how does the government justify charging such a high price for it's services? -
No doubt our prices are still quite "cheap", it depends on your definition of cheap. If you compare average wage levels with other developed countries, Singapore's average wage level is pathetic.Originally posted by selfobliged:there's an increase in GST because TIMES HAS CHANGED. If you want to compare to other developed countries, our items are still quite cheap.
If houses in Australia cost $250,000 and a HDB house in Singapore cost $200,000, which citizen is better off?
Australians make at least 3 times the average wage rate of Singaporeans.
fymk, can you clarify the last statement. -
The other capitalist democracies have government maintaining the minimum standard of healthcare and living.Originally posted by deathbait:You realise this is the lower class i've been talking about all day right?
They are the most vulnerable to changes, because they have no buffer.
But as I have repeated many times...capitalist economies ALWAYS have a lower class. It's part of the system. Just like to build big cities, you need big ugly sewers.
The problem here is, in the last few decades of relative isolation, the government has managed to make the lower class too secure. Secure to the point people have forgotten we have a bottom class. And now that they are suddenly visible again, everyone blames the government.
Smell the wind people. This is the real world. This is how it actually works in the rest of the world. The fact that the government has made considerable strides in eliminating the problem altogether for so long is testament to it's success.
To get to the top, we have to step on each other. This is how capitalism works. It's ugly, so we don't like to think about it. But for every dollar you make, someone has to lose a dollar. And that is the gist of it. There's a bottom class because the rest of us aren't there.
We created the problem(it's a natural process due to greed). Now we expect the government to clean it up.
Has the Singaporean government done the same? If you do not have money in your CPF, do you think you can get treated in the hospital?
The greediest of them all is the P4P government, demanding millions of dollars of tax payers money. When all these money could have gone to improving Social Welfare.
I think your theory of global wage rate does not apply here, because our P4P ministers are overpaid many times the highest paid leaders around the world. -
I look at our Ministers and I agree with you unequivocally.Originally posted by deathbait:Welcome to the real world. Where the people who do the most disgusting jobs and work the hardest are paid the least.
They deserve more, but no one in the world would pay them more. The part about dependencies really have no impact on the argument at hand. It's like saying you should fire that guy over there instead of me because I have kids. It's not going to work, especially if you're more expandable. -
We are close to that, we are a hybrid regime, maybe one rung higher than communism.Originally posted by deathbait:The problem with this way of thinking of course, is that the most effecient way to solve the problem of lower classes is to create a form of society close to communism.
And we know how well that went.
If we try harder, we will go back to Monarchy and Feudalism. -
Do you know of communism?
As by Karl Marx?
or by Lennin?
or Stalin?
or Mao? -
A mainlander friend of mine recently commented that Singaporean citizenship is no longer valuable, because it's given out like candies in Immigrations and Control Authority (ICA).Originally posted by Spartans:More like the PRCs are using Singapore as a stopover to western nations such as the USA.
Best is to get a Singapore passport. Easier for them to gain access into the western nations. -
Being a part of a government is an added responsibility to the family of the one politician especially in words they let out of their mouth. They are held to a higher standard of behaviour and public scrutiny.Originally posted by deathbait:If only our leaders weren't human and didn't make the same mistakes the rest of us mortals did huh.
Right. Totally valid argument
If one cannot control their own household , how can one be expected to rule the country? Mrs GCT could have kept her thoughts to herself and diplomatically avoid making such a comment. Basically that woman had a choice , she choose her options stupidly.
Just like Wee Shu Min.
It is valid argument about the sheer arrogance of the ruling elites. -
have u met anyone who have no money in his CPF and not treated in the hospital?Originally posted by maurizio13:The other capitalist democracies have government maintaining the minimum standard of healthcare and living.
Has the Singaporean government done the same? If you do not have money in your CPF, do you think you can get treated in the hospital?
obviously the answer is NO because from the way you write, you are totally detached from the reality in Singapore. Your sole objective is to discredit Singapore government. -
your strategy to stir up "peasants revolution" sentiments by talking about how poor some singaporeans are and not talking about how rich most singaporeans are will not work in singapore. -
some poor westerners got to sell their bodies near all major train stations in their homeland. Oh yes, poor peasants.