Free Tibet!!!!
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Originally posted by googoomuck:
The Communists have murdered more people than Hitler, in case you did not realise. It's more shocking that these people were their citizens.
The weakness of this argument is the failure to see the fact that communism has evolved away from such bloody violence. Do you think China's government could secure its legitimacy if it still does that?
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Precisely, the USA now throws its weight around the world, doing whatever they want. It is a very dangerous situation.
That is my worry.
Some people prefer propaganda to facts. Sad also.
USA killed more people but no spread propaganda.
China attack who? Killed who outside its borders?
But China they like to spread propaganda.
Some people prefer propaganda to facts.
They follow propaganda, not facts.
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Originally posted by idiotbutcherer:
The weakness of this argument is the failure to see the fact that communism has evolved away from such bloody violence. Do you think China's government could secure its legitimacy if it still does that?
Why not? A repeat of the Tiananmen massacre is in the works. If it's going to affect the Beijing Olympics, so be it. They are the communists. No compromise.
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They are the communists. No compromise.
So you don't buy PRC made goods?
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Originally posted by googoomuck:
Why not? A repeat of the Tiananmen massacre is in the works. If it's going to affect the Beijing Olympics, so be it. They are the communists. No compromise.
Listen, darling, you cannot make an argument based on something that YOU THINK is going to happen. Ok?
Who do you think you are? Commander in chief of my country?
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idiotbutcherer, you PRC?
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Originally posted by Poh Ah Pak:
Precisely, the USA now throws its weight around the world, doing whatever they want. It is a very dangerous situation.
That is my worry.
Some people prefer propaganda to facts. Sad also.
USA killed more people but no spread propaganda.
China attack who? Killed who outside its borders?
But China they like to spread propaganda.
Some people prefer propaganda to facts.
They follow propaganda, not facts.
I totaly agree.
and just to add,the liberals of Singapore would KPKB about things like that and yet seal their mouth with tapes regarding the mistreatment by the garmen.Being Pro-American doesnt mean having to agree with whatever they do or say cuz they are not the garmen of the planet Earth.
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Originally posted by Poh Ah Pak:
idiotbutcherer, you PRC?
Yup.
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You in Singapore now?
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Originally posted by Poh Ah Pak:
idiotbutcherer, you PRC?
I am reading the page you referenced on the Republic of Lakotha. I find it absolutely riveting. Why isn't anyone concerned with the Lakotha people? We should go and protest!
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Originally posted by Poh Ah Pak:
You in Singapore now?
Was, for some years. Now somewhere else.
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We should go and protest!
This is Singapore.
You will be arrested.
My country is also pro-USA.
They won't allow anti-USA activities to take place.
Why isn't anyone concerned with the Lakotha people?
Lack of propaganda and PR.
Tibet has the Dalai clique to do propaganda work and PR.
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Originally posted by googoomuck:
Why not? A repeat of the Tiananmen massacre is in the works. If it's going to affect the Beijing Olympics, so be it. They are the communists. No compromise.
I don't recall the students in Tiananmen ATTACKING the military.
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To be frank, I like fatum argument when he mention about the many "modified" or "blackout" news in china. True, Singapore, British or US may modify their news too but the amount of news altered in china, even the news tat is sure to be found out, is tremendous. On one hand they deny shooting any people from tibet then the very next day they say they shot some people then after tat they say they shot more people. China have lost a lot of credibility and no one take their words seriously. Tat is something china must work on
If u talk about US, to be frank I don't like them to have a monopoly on controlling the world as well. If u look at Iraq, and the many people who they had killed for no good reason (they have no WMD and no link with Al Qaeda) and how they force people to go into tis war, u will realise US is no much better than China. Is the casualities in Iraq lesser than the casualties in Tibet or Tiananmen ?
I don't remember the wedding party of one Iraqis family tat is bombed attacking the US army either
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Originally posted by Poh Ah Pak:
Sigh....alot of the liberals in singapore only look at stuf in black and white, not grey.
On what issue?
In regards to what is tibetian native culture?'The Chinese government at first attempted to reform Tibet's social or religious system in Ü-Tsang. Eastern Kham and Amdo were incorporated in the provinces of Sichuan and Qinghai respectively. Western Kham was put under the Chamdo Military Committee. In these areas, land reform was implemented. This involved communist agitators designating "landlords" — sometimes arbitrarily chosen — for public humiliation in "struggle sessions." In conjunction of land reform, Chinese government abolish slavery and the Tibetan serfdom system of unpaid labor.'
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_Tibet#Rule_of_the_People.27s_Republic_of_China
While china's government isn't in the right, I will not say that tibetians is a liberal country for everyone to follow where slavery is praticed until the chinese came in.
And from what I've read, the PRC has improved the standard of living in tibet as compared to them ruling tibet themselves. Like some middle-eastern countries, tibetians don't seem to be living in the 20th or 21th century to me.
Also look at this, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Examples_of_feudalism#Tibet_.2813th_century_until_1959.29
I doubt that letting the clergy to own basically slaves is a good thing.
But free tibet does not mean a better life for tibetian people. Look at Iraq now, US is screaming free Iraq a few years ago, and now, Iraq is a better country under saddam as compared to today, where it is governed by the US ( more or less).
Hardly a shinning beacon of democarcy. Something, a country need a certain level of maturity before it can be given self-ruled or democracy. Same goes to most countries in africa, they are better off as colonies in UK.
Some of the posters are simply saying china is oppressing tibet, and assume that tibetians can have a better life if they have self-government. I'm just trying to tell them that they need to balance the issue first before yelling stuff like free-tibet.
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Originally posted by stupidissmart:
To be frank, I like fatum argument when he mention about the many "modified" or "blackout" news in china. True, Singapore, British or US may modify their news too but the amount of news altered in china, even the news tat is sure to be found out, is tremendous. On one hand they deny shooting any people from tibet then the very next day they say they shot some people then after tat they say they shot more people. China have lost a lot of credibility and no one take their words seriously. Tat is something china must work on
Judging from the scale of the riot. I am not surprised that more and more people will be shot. The first day, the police still can close on eye amidst the destruction of the public facilities and shops, the next day when more people involved and more destruction are done, the police must take action else they will be considered as irresponsible.
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Originally posted by Fatum:
[I posted this reply earlier. But somehow it got deleted by accident. So I am posting it again here.]
“okie .... first, since you love pointing out the fact that there were tibetan rioters hacking and killing HAN chinese ... may i ask if you've checked out the pictures of dead tibetans on the link I posted ? ... going to say they were rioters who were killed next ?”
Ok, I do not know what link you are talking about but I am not going to sift through the 15 posts you have made on this topic. But I assume your point is that there were also Tibetans killed? Yes, that is true. SO? They were killed by violent rioters, not peace-loving demonstrators. That is all the point I was trying to make. That while those rioters were hacking people, causing mayhem, the international media are COLLECTIVELY portraying them as peace-loving demonstrators who are crushed by Chinese troops. That is a serious misrepresentation of facts with an apparent political objective.
Maybe you could benefit from viewing this video:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uSQnK5FcKas
Still siding with them? I have nothing to say...
“... one of the reasons why many people tended NOT to believe in the official chinese version of the current troubles, because past experience doesn't lead us to do so ... Remember the SARS crisis ? ... when the official media and chinese authorities first attempted to cover up and hide the true extent of the epidemic, before people overseas started dying and it blew everything wide open ? ... even the whistle blowing doctor was taken into custody, for telling the .... truth ?
and again, when other incidents happen, like the recent spate of lead paint in dolls and food stuff scares, while it may be tempting to say that it's an attempt to smear China, the fact remains that even the maling brand of pork and luncheon meat products was quietly banned for a while in Singapore by the local authorities (nevermind the slim 10 pills and walnut sex pills and what not, those were quack meds) ....
and in a similar sense, when people read about the tibetan incident, and read about the official chinese version, replete with indignant rhetoric quite redolent of the 60's revolutionary languages, people will remember the crushing of the students at Tiananmen square by tanks .... now if the chinese were capable of such cruelty to their own people .... then I guess you can imagine how people outside of China would connect the dots .......”
Did you type all this just to prove the point that it is ok for Western media to lie and write misleading reports because Chinese government was not forthcoming with news? And then you stentorianly lecture in the following paragraphs that A’s wrong-doing does not absolve B’s crime?
“sigh ... I have been through this frustrating point 15 times now, I shall type out everything yet again just for you .... first, read this thread's topic title ... it says free tibet, not free Iraq, free palestine, or, like what our dear friend here would like, free lakota ...
I would like to ask you, if a criminal was caught in the act of murdering someone, would it be an admissible defense for him to claim in court " Hey ! ... tis unfair ! .. why me ? ... why single me out ? ... if you want to charge me with this crime, you must first indict and charge every other murderer ! ... if not, this is unfair treatment ! " ... even if it is indeed blantantly unfair in your books ... do you think it absolves the fellow of his crime ? .... makes him any less guilty ? ....
secondly, yet again, I would like to ask you, why are you comparing your own country to one which is of such unsavory repute to you ? ... comparing China to other "imperialist powers" as you've put them as ... is it a tacit admissible of similar behavior as those "imperialist powers", to ignore what I've previously said about "learning from the good, and not the bad" ... if you acknowledge that what the whites did to the natives in Australia, the US, and across the new world was bad, why are you trying to justify China's action by comparing the occupation Tibet with these countries ....
China too, had suffered invasions and occupations in her past, including most recently, under the japanese (which the Chinese goverment and people would never let anyone forget) .... one would thought that having suffered foreign occupation herself, she wouldn't want to impose it on another .... but no ! ... now, you think it's fair to say "tibet now belongs to China, it's a fact and will never be reversed, so forget and get over it already !?!? .... double standards ? ... chauvinism ? ... I think it's starting to smell like fascism ....
and just on the record ... I would like to ask you for your views on the sovereignty and ownership issues of the spratley islands ... who do you think owns these islands ? ...”
Now, I am not in favor of using such simple metaphorical examples (criminals A and B etc.) to illustrate something as complex as international politics and power arm-twisting.
This is because in international politics, there is no dedicated policeman to catch criminals and definitely no judge to make an impartial verdict.
And international reality is based on interpretation and perception, which in turn is decided by power relations.
Why is Tibet a problematic case? Why are we discussing it now? This is because the West is making a case out of it for their political objectives. IT IS A POLITICAL STATEMENT Do not give me the crap about how they care for Tibetans and Tibetan culture and all. It takes one a pair of healthy eyes and a sane mind to see that they don’t. You may have faith in their inherent goodness. But most of us don’t. Do you honestly believe that YOU would be discussing the “miserable subjugation” of Tibetans IF THEY did not make a case out of it to begin with?
My answer to the question “why do the white man’s faults absolve China of its wrong-doings” is predicated on the following understanding:
Reality is based on interpretation and perception. International reality is contingent on political interpretation and perception. Something is not inherently right or wrong. It is right or wrong only when one interprets it to be one way or the other.
As such, the Chinese occupation of Tibet (let’s assume for now that Chinese occupation of Tibet started only in 1950, which is not a correct assumption but it is not the crucial point here) was not a wrong-doing until the West started to make a wrong-doing INTERPRETATION out of it (for the sake of their political objective).
Therefore, the Tibetan issue is not to be interpreted and discussed in isolation but with respect to its political motivations. For that reason, there is absolutely no point in discussing the inherent right/wrong of Tibetan occupation. It must be discussed, again as I said with respect to the political objectives behind it.
Since it is a political statement, as my argument above pointed out, of course, my response to the Tibetan issue is also a political one: If you are making a case out of Tibet, I am going to make a case out of North America and Oceana so that your case of Tibet starts to sound less convincing.
Once again, international reality is based on interpretation and perception, which is in turn decided by power relations. One ignores this fundamental point at one’s own folly.
By the way, since I do not know much about nansha qundao, allow me to refrain from commenting on it.
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Originally posted by idiotbutcherer:
[I posted this reply earlier. But somehow it got deleted by accident. So I am posting it again here.]
“okie .... first, since you love pointing out the fact that there were tibetan rioters hacking and killing HAN chinese ... may i ask if you've checked out the pictures of dead tibetans on the link I posted ? ... going to say they were rioters who were killed next ?”
Ok, I do not know what link you are talking about but I am not going to sift through the 15 posts you have made on this topic. But I assume your point is that there were also Tibetans killed? Yes, that is true. SO? They were killed by violent rioters, not peace-loving demonstrators. That is all the point I was trying to make. That while those rioters were hacking people, causing mayhem, the international media are COLLECTIVELY portraying them as peace-loving demonstrators who are crushed by Chinese troops. That is a serious misrepresentation of facts with an apparent political objective.
Maybe you could benefit from viewing this video:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uSQnK5FcKas
Still siding with them? I have nothing to say...
“... one of the reasons why many people tended NOT to believe in the official chinese version of the current troubles, because past experience doesn't lead us to do so ... Remember the SARS crisis ? ... when the official media and chinese authorities first attempted to cover up and hide the true extent of the epidemic, before people overseas started dying and it blew everything wide open ? ... even the whistle blowing doctor was taken into custody, for telling the .... truth ?
and again, when other incidents happen, like the recent spate of lead paint in dolls and food stuff scares, while it may be tempting to say that it's an attempt to smear China, the fact remains that even the maling brand of pork and luncheon meat products was quietly banned for a while in Singapore by the local authorities (nevermind the slim 10 pills and walnut sex pills and what not, those were quack meds) ....
and in a similar sense, when people read about the tibetan incident, and read about the official chinese version, replete with indignant rhetoric quite redolent of the 60's revolutionary languages, people will remember the crushing of the students at Tiananmen square by tanks .... now if the chinese were capable of such cruelty to their own people .... then I guess you can imagine how people outside of China would connect the dots .......”
Did you type all this just to prove the point that it is ok for Western media to lie and write misleading reports because Chinese government was not forthcoming with news? And then you stentorianly lecture in the following paragraphs that A’s wrong-doing does not absolve B’s crime?
“sigh ... I have been through this frustrating point 15 times now, I shall type out everything yet again just for you .... first, read this thread's topic title ... it says free tibet, not free Iraq, free palestine, or, like what our dear friend here would like, free lakota ...
I would like to ask you, if a criminal was caught in the act of murdering someone, would it be an admissible defense for him to claim in court " Hey ! ... tis unfair ! .. why me ? ... why single me out ? ... if you want to charge me with this crime, you must first indict and charge every other murderer ! ... if not, this is unfair treatment ! " ... even if it is indeed blantantly unfair in your books ... do you think it absolves the fellow of his crime ? .... makes him any less guilty ? ....
secondly, yet again, I would like to ask you, why are you comparing your own country to one which is of such unsavory repute to you ? ... comparing China to other "imperialist powers" as you've put them as ... is it a tacit admissible of similar behavior as those "imperialist powers", to ignore what I've previously said about "learning from the good, and not the bad" ... if you acknowledge that what the whites did to the natives in Australia, the US, and across the new world was bad, why are you trying to justify China's action by comparing the occupation Tibet with these countries ....
China too, had suffered invasions and occupations in her past, including most recently, under the japanese (which the Chinese goverment and people would never let anyone forget) .... one would thought that having suffered foreign occupation herself, she wouldn't want to impose it on another .... but no ! ... now, you think it's fair to say "tibet now belongs to China, it's a fact and will never be reversed, so forget and get over it already !?!? .... double standards ? ... chauvinism ? ... I think it's starting to smell like fascism ....
and just on the record ... I would like to ask you for your views on the sovereignty and ownership issues of the spratley islands ... who do you think owns these islands ? ...”
Now, I am not in favor of using such simple metaphorical examples (criminals A and B etc.) to illustrate something as complex as international politics and power arm-twisting.
This is because in international politics, there is no dedicated policeman to catch criminals and definitely no judge to make an impartial verdict.
And international reality is based on interpretation and perception, which in turn is decided by power relations.
Why is Tibet a problematic case? Why are we discussing it now? This is because the West is making a case out of it for their political objectives. IT IS A POLITICAL STATEMENT Do not give me the crap about how they care for Tibetans and Tibetan culture and all. It takes one a pair of healthy eyes and a sane mind to see that they don’t. You may have faith in their inherent goodness. But most of us don’t. Do you honestly believe that YOU would be discussing the “miserable subjugation” of Tibetans IF THEY did not make a case out of it to begin with?
My answer to the question “why do the white man’s faults absolve China of its wrong-doings” is predicated on the following understanding:
Reality is based on interpretation and perception. International reality is contingent on political interpretation and perception. Something is not inherently right or wrong. It is right or wrong only when one interprets it to be one way or the other.
As such, the Chinese occupation of Tibet (let’s assume for now that Chinese occupation of Tibet started only in 1950, which is not a correct assumption but it is not the crucial point here) was not a wrong-doing until the West started to make a wrong-doing INTERPRETATION out of it (for the sake of their political objective).
Therefore, the Tibetan issue is not to be interpreted and discussed in isolation but with respect to its political motivations. For that reason, there is absolutely no point in discussing the inherent right/wrong of Tibetan occupation. It must be discussed, again as I said with respect to the political objectives behind it.
Since it is a political statement, as my argument above pointed out, of course, my response to the Tibetan issue is also a political one: If you are making a case out of Tibet, I am going to make a case out of North America and Oceana so that your case of Tibet starts to sound less convincing.
Once again, international reality is based on interpretation and perception, which is in turn decided by power relations. One ignores this fundamental point at one’s own folly.
By the way, since I do not know much about nansha qundao, allow me to refrain from commenting on it.
it's okay, sometimes the forum goes conky when you try to edit your previous posts ..
But I assume your point is that there were also Tibetans killed? Yes, that is true. SO? They were killed by violent rioters, not peace-loving demonstrators. That is all the point I was trying to make. That while those rioters were hacking people,
I was referring to those pictures here ....
http://www.freetibet.org/press/kirtiphotos.html
ah ! .... so now these pictures show tibetans killed by Violent Rioters ? .... damm ! ... hacked you said ? .... but those LITTLE ROUND HOLES looked to be to be very much like BULLET WOUNDS .... you think the tibetans are killing other tibetans now ? ... and are arming themselves with firearms for an insurgency now ?
Was tat your final answer ? ... or are you going to tell me these are actually dead chinese civilians next ? ... that they were killed because they were violent demonstrators now ? ....
Did you type all this just to prove the point that it is ok for Western media to lie and write misleading reports because Chinese government was not forthcoming with news? And then you stentorianly lecture in the following paragraphs that A’s wrong-doing does not absolve B’s crime?
oh no ... I posted up some very uncomfortable observations (understandably, for you), not to show you that " it's okay for western media tolie and write misleading reports" but to show you why people around the world are more prepared NOT to believe in the Chinese version, simply because they didn't have a very good track record at reporting the "truth" ... just like the SARs crisis, only when people around the world started dying, did the official stance started backpedalling ? .. or, if you prefer not to remember the international food scares I Iisted above, do you believe the recent spate of fake infant milk formula scandals in china, only recently ? .... those were sold in China itself mind you ... are you going to say "mei you !" too ? ... that the infants didn't die, .... I guess Tiananmen was still an uncomfortable sore point for you chaps eh ? ... or the covered up peasant riots in Guangdong and else where ? ....
So if it's hard for the foreign public to believe it when the chinese goverment comes out and say that that the food exported is safe, that there were no health epidemics, how would you expect outsiders, the foreign public, to believe the official chinese line about tibet ? ... after all, people remember the tanks against students in Tiananmen ..... and all the more so when foreign reporters and visitors are now being barred from Tibet ? ... I remind you that there are no such bans in Iraq if you still want to try to deflect and point fingers .....
Thus, you can thump your chest in indignation here all you want, but how are people outside really going to connect the dot for themselves ? ... so other than the people who would already be predisposed to believe because of ethnic and nationalistic pride ..... how are people going to be expected to believe in the official Chinese line in the light of these ? ...
You like to use the actions of the west for example, but the fact remains that their version remains much more platable than the Chinese press, like to remember Iraq ? ... Abu Gharib ? ... Remember that it was the WESTERN PRESS that broke that story, it was the WESTERN PRESS that kept up the attention on Guantanamo, it was the WESTERN PRESS that reported all the abuses that came to light in Iraq, to quote the sources listed by indignant people here ... Such Irony, isn't it ? .... The WESTERN PRESS had no qualms about indicting their own goverment for perceived wrong doings, the people here had no qualms about quoting them here, but when negative reports on Tibet and China comes out, it all becomes a western plot ? ... don't you think there's two standards being adopted here ? ....
Now, I am not in favor of using such simple metaphorical examples (criminals A and B etc.) to illustrate something as complex as international politics and power arm-twisting.
This is because in international politics, there is no dedicated policeman to catch criminals and definitely no judge to make an impartial verdict.
And international reality is based on interpretation and perception, which in turn is decided by power relations.
no, of course you wouldn't .. because you cannot provide a satisfactory answer to my analogy, because you know it's no defense at all, in logic or in a court, for a bully to point fingers at another bigger bully for the crimes he commited ... so now it all becomes " POWER RELATIONS", based on interpretation and peception, eh ? .... fudging and avoiding the questions ? ... power relations ... something you learnt in political education classes ? ... yes you're right, there's no real (read: powerful enough) policeman to catch the criminals, no court to pass judgement .... else I guess Tibet would still be free ? ... so it all becomes a game of power politics to you then ? .....
might .... is right ? ....
Since you say that any debates like this should be an all encompassing discussion, again, I invite you to read up on the "spratley islands" yet again ... because there are also issues of territorial ownership and sovereignty involving China against different countries around the region .... or you'd would still prefer NOT to commit to an answer there too ? ... or isn't it really because I may hold it up as an example of unilateral land grabbing by your goverment if you affirm chinese ownersip, (just ike in Tibet) and pride forbades you to say otherwise ? ... it's okay you know, while both Tibet and the Spratleys have lots of oil, there are no natives on the islands with charismatic religions leaders who may form a "clique" in exile to continously embaress the your goverment or to "instigate violence " there .....
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Originally posted by Fatum:
it's okay, sometimes the forum goes conky when you try to edit your previous posts ..
But I assume your point is that there were also Tibetans killed? Yes, that is true. SO? They were killed by violent rioters, not peace-loving demonstrators. That is all the point I was trying to make. That while those rioters were hacking people,
I was referring to those pictures here ....
http://www.freetibet.org/press/kirtiphotos.html
ah ! .... so now these pictures show tibetans killed by Violent Rioters ? .... damm ! ... hacked you said ? .... but those LITTLE ROUND HOLES looked to be to be very much like BULLET WOUNDS .... you think the tibetans are killing other tibetans now ? ... and are arming themselves with firearms for an insurgency now ?
Was tat your final answer ? ... or are you going to tell me these are actually dead chinese civilians next ? ... that they were killed because they were violent demonstrators now ? ....
Did you type all this just to prove the point that it is ok for Western media to lie and write misleading reports because Chinese government was not forthcoming with news? And then you stentorianly lecture in the following paragraphs that A’s wrong-doing does not absolve B’s crime?
oh no ... I posted up some very uncomfortable observations (understandably, for you), not to show you that " it's okay for western media tolie and write misleading reports" but to show you why people around the world are more prepared NOT to believe in the Chinese version, simply because they didn't have a very good track record at reporting the "truth" ... just like the SARs crisis, only when people around the world started dying, did the official stance started backpedalling ? .. or, if you prefer not to remember the international food scares I Iisted above, do you believe the recent spate of fake infant milk formula scandals in china, only recently ? .... those were sold in China itself mind you ... are you going to say "mei you !" too ? ... that the infants didn't die, .... I guess Tiananmen was still an uncomfortable sore point for you chaps eh ? ... or the covered up peasant riots in Guangdong and else where ? ....
So if it's hard for the foreign public to believe it when the chinese goverment comes out and say that that the food exported is safe, that there were no health epidemics, how would you expect outsiders, the foreign public, to believe the official chinese line about tibet ? ... after all, people remember the tanks against students in Tiananmen ..... and all the more so when foreign reporters and visitors are now being barred from Tibet ? ... I remind you that there are no such bans in Iraq if you still want to try to deflect and point fingers .....
Thus, you can thump your chest in indignation here all you want, but how are people outside really going to connect the dot for themselves ? ... so other than the people who would already be predisposed to believe because of ethnic and nationalistic pride ..... how are people going to be expected to believe in the official Chinese line in the light of these ? ...
You like to use the actions of the west for example, but the fact remains that their version remains much more platable than the Chinese press, like to remember Iraq ? ... Abu Gharib ? ... Remember that it was the WESTERN PRESS that broke that story, it was the WESTERN PRESS that kept up the attention on Guantanamo, it was the WESTERN PRESS that reported all the abuses that came to light in Iraq, to quote the sources listed by indignant people here ... Such Irony, isn't it ? .... The WESTERN PRESS had no qualms about indicting their own goverment for perceived wrong doings, the people here had no qualms about quoting them here, but when negative reports on Tibet and China comes out, it all becomes a western plot ? ... don't you think there's two standards being adopted here ? ....
Now, I am not in favor of using such simple metaphorical examples (criminals A and B etc.) to illustrate something as complex as international politics and power arm-twisting.
This is because in international politics, there is no dedicated policeman to catch criminals and definitely no judge to make an impartial verdict.
And international reality is based on interpretation and perception, which in turn is decided by power relations.
no, of course you wouldn't .. because you cannot provide a satisfactory answer to my analogy, because you know it's no defense at all, in logic or in a court, for a bully to point fingers at another bigger bully for the crimes he commited ... so now it all becomes " POWER RELATIONS", based on interpretation and peception, eh ? .... fudging and avoiding the questions ? ... power relations ... something you learnt in political education classes ? ... yes you're right, there's no real (read: powerful enough) policeman to catch the criminals, no court to pass judgement .... else I guess Tibet would still be free ? ... so it all becomes a game of power politics to you then ? .....
might .... is right ? ....
Since you say that any debates like this should be an all encompassing discussion, again, I invite you to read up on the "spratley islands" yet again ... because there are also issues of territorial ownership and sovereignty involving China against different countries around the region .... or you'd would still prefer NOT to commit to an answer there too ? ... or isn't it really because I may hold it up as an example of unilateral land grabbing by your goverment if you affirm chinese ownersip, (just ike in Tibet) and pride forbades you to say otherwise ? ... it's okay you know, while both Tibet and the Spratleys have lots of oil, there are no natives on the islands with charismatic religions leaders who may form a "clique" in exile to continously embaress the your goverment or to "instigate violence " there .....
I was referring to those pictures here ....
http://www.freetibet.org/press/kirtiphotos.html
ah ! .... so now these pictures show tibetans killed by Violent Rioters ? .... damm ! ... hacked you said ? .... but those LITTLE ROUND HOLES looked to be to be very much like BULLET WOUNDS .... you think the tibetans are killing other tibetans now ? ... and are arming themselves with firearms for an insurgency now ?
Was tat your final answer ? ... or are you going to tell me these are actually dead chinese civilians next ? ... that they were killed because they were violent demonstrators now ? ....
I cannot believe you are using sources from www.freetibet.org to make a point. It is like using the Bible as evidence that God exists. Or citing from opoch times to justify the Falungong’s claim that there is organ harvesting of Falungong followers in China (which by the way, both the Department of State of USA and overseas Chinese dissents have discredited after their independent investigations). All of which are unreliable because information stemming from an interest group cannot be used as unbiased evidence to support the claims made by this interest group. I am sure you know this point. Don’t you. That is why you were taking another former to task when he was citing from People’s Daily for a pro-China opinion. Better practice what you preach…
“oh no ... I posted up some very uncomfortable observations (understandably, for you), not to show you that " it's okay for western media tolie and write misleading reports" but to show you why people around the world are more prepared NOT to believe in the Chinese version, simply because they didn't have a very good track record at reporting the "truth" ... just like the SARs crisis, only when people around the world started dying, did the official stance started backpedalling ? .. or, if you prefer not to remember the international food scares I Iisted above, do you believe the recent spate of fake infant milk formula scandals in china, only recently ? .... those were sold in China itself mind you ... are you going to say "mei you !" too ? ... that the infants didn't die, .... I guess Tiananmen was still an uncomfortable sore point for you chaps eh ? ... or the covered up peasant riots in Guangdong and else where ? ....
So if it's hard for the foreign public to believe it when the chinese goverment comes out and say that that the food exported is safe, that there were no health epidemics, how would you expect outsiders, the foreign public, to believe the official chinese line about tibet ? ... after all, people remember the tanks against students in Tiananmen ..... and all the more so when foreign reporters and visitors are now being barred from Tibet ? ... I remind you that there are no such bans in Iraq if you still want to try to deflect and point fingers .....
Thus, you can thump your chest in indignation here all you want, but how are people outside really going to connect the dot for themselves ? ... so other than the people who would already be predisposed to believe because of ethnic and nationalistic pride ..... how are people going to be expected to believe in the official Chinese line in the light of these ? ...”
You are either totally missing the point or you are deliberately diverting the issues here. I WAS NOT questioning about the CCP’s faults in the SARS and Food and All. I WAS NOT! But you are so fond of REGURGITATING all those examples again and again as if they provide the ultimate answers to the questions that this thread intends to inspire, apparently to make me "uncomfortable", as you put it.
Listen to this: I was not questioning the credibility of Western media’s reports AGAINST THE CHINESE OFFICAL REPORT. Therefore, it is an irrelevant question from you when you asked: “how are people going to be expected to believe in the official Chinese line in the light of these ?”
Instead, I am questioning their credibility for the following reasons:
The Western media were using completely unreliable sources, or worse, deliberately modified pictures they had obtained or used totally irrelevant pictures (from police brutality scenes in Nepal and India) in their reports to mislead the audience into believing that Chinese troops were crushing “peace-loving protesters”.
Therefore, my claim that the Western media is biased is advanced on the basis of their OWN LEVEL OF PROFESSIONALISM AND ETHICS OR THE LACK THEREOF, not against a Chinese standard official version of the report. DO YOU GET THE LOGIC AND REASONING?
Why must you believe in me, you ask? Here, evidence from INTERNATIONAL SOURCES OF INFORMATION, which you apparently have no problem believing in at all:
As one article from New American Media (http://news.ncmonline.com/news/view_article.html?article_id=0db406a8bd056cbbd2119742f01dba4a), an INTERNATIONAL source says:
“Mainstream media is quoting unverified or unconfirmed casualty figures and showing inappropriately edited photos. In one case, CNN cropped a photo that originally showed Tibetans throwing stones at a Chinese military vehicle. By cutting the right side where the Tibetan crowd is, the remaining part of photo becomes a scene of the vehicle chasing running people. This biased reporting was also caught by posters on Zuola.com, and it angered Chinese cyber readers, effectively pouring oil on the fire.”
Likewise, an AMERICAN free-lancing reporter (http://kadfly.blogspot.com/) who had first-hand witnessed the turmoil has the following to offer, countering the completely inaccurate portrayal in main stream media:
“I want to make one thing clear because all of the major news outlets are ignoring a very important fact. Yes, the Chinese government bears a huge amount of blame for this situation. But the protests yesterday were NOT peaceful. The original protests from the past few days may have been, but all of the eyewitnesses in this room agree the protesters yesterday went from attacking Chinese police to attacking innocent people very, very quickly. They appeared to target Muslim and Han Chinese individuals and businesses first but many Tibetans were also caught in the crossfire.
”
"You like to use the actions of the west for example, but the fact remains that their version remains much more platable than the Chinese press, like to remember Iraq ? ... Abu Gharib ? ... Remember that it was the WESTERN PRESS that broke that story, it was the WESTERN PRESS that kept up the attention on Guantanamo, it was the WESTERN PRESS that reported all the abuses that came to light in Iraq, to quote the sources listed by indignant people here ... Such Irony, isn't it ? .... The WESTERN PRESS had no qualms about indicting their own goverment for perceived wrong doings, the people here had no qualms about quoting them here"
Read my response above. The points you raised above about Western media being more reliable ARE NOT RELEVANT as I am NOT assessing them AGAINST Chinese official media.
“but when negative reports on Tibet and China comes out, it all becomes a western plot ? ... don't you think there's two standards being adopted here ? ....”
Now listen to this carefully: There is a difference between truthful negative reports and UNTRUTHFUL negative reports. I am taking issue with the UNTRUTHFUL negative reports here. Are you trying to justify the UNTRUTHFUL reports? Is this logic CLEAR to you?
“no, of course you wouldn't .. because you cannot provide a satisfactory answer to my analogy, because you know it's no defense at all, in logic or in a court, for a bully to point fingers at another bigger bully for the crimes he commited ... so now it all becomes " POWER RELATIONS", based on interpretation and peception, eh ? .... fudging and avoiding the questions ? ... power relations ... something you learnt in political education classes ? ... yes you're right, there's no real (read: powerful enough) policeman to catch the criminals, no court to pass judgement .... else I guess Tibet would still be free ? ... so it all becomes a game of power politics to you then ?...”
Once again, you are not listening. I do not have to answer your analogy because IT IS AN INAPPROPRIATE ONE. You cannot compare apples and oranges. International politics cannot be judged right or wrong in such a simplistic manner. If you believe it is something other than power relations and power struggles, then you are truly misinformed.
And to answer your question, "yes you're right, there's no real (read: powerful enough) policeman to catch the criminals, no court to pass judgement .... else I guess Tibet would still be free ? "
Or else, there would be no White people occupying North America/Canada/Australia/New Zealand/South Africa. Or else there would be no brutal oppression of Palestinians from the Israelis with the connivance of the US government. Or else there would have been no illegal invasion of Iraq and no threat of an Iran invasion. Or else, the West would leave China's problem to the Chinese.The list goes on and on. DO YOU GET THE DRIFT??
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If you believe it is something other than power relations and power struggles, then you are truly misinformed.
That is true.
But some will think we are biased.
They need to read up more on current global politics.
They will need the larger context to see through the propaganda and bias, otherwise their outlook and interpretation of events will be very narrow and easily influenced by the western propaganda media.
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idiotbutcherer, your country is growing in power and influence, some people in the west don't like it and they try to smear your country in 2008 Olympic year.
Is this the view over in China?
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Originally posted by Poh Ah Pak:
If you believe it is something other than power relations and power struggles, then you are truly misinformed.
That is true.
But some will think we are biased.
They need to read up more on current global politics.
They will need the larger context to see through the propaganda and bias, otherwise their outlook and interpretation of events will be very narrow and easily influenced by the western propaganda media.
Hi, this forum is frustrating. I was trying to change the font of my previous post. BUt cannot. Anyway.
Yes, I think most of us could feel this dark agenda to sabotage Olympicsfrom the West and it is causing lots of resentment.
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Yes, I think most of us could feel this dark agenda to sabotage Olympics from the West and it is causing lots of resentment.
They will fail.
They have nothing but cheap tricks and stupid propaganda.
I hope Beijing can turn anger into strength and win the most Olympics Gold medals.
I have been watching the moves of the USA for a long time, they are hell bent on containing China.
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Originally posted by Fatum:
ah .... so the yuans were a foreigners, and thus what they conquered during that time do not count at part of China's ? ... what about the qing's then ? .... were they not a "foreign dynasty" too ? ... remember it was you who said that kangxi sent in two military expeditions to drive out the mongols in tibet ? where previously, tibet was an independant kingdom who got their arse invaded by the mongols...... kangxi, one of the famous Manchu Qing emperors ...... How come what the Yuan dynasty's got is not counted, but the Qing's counted ? .... double talk again ? ...
Your thinking is very lopsided, your knowledge in history of china deplorable, your understanding and interpretation of information “cute”. The Mongols attacked all the way to eastern Europe, no countries on the west of China ever recorded the invasion as an invasion from China or the Yuan Dynasty. No Chinese, ancient or recent, nationalist of communist, historian or politican, ever regard any of those countries as part of China. You are the first, obviously a weirdo. Only Korea, referred to the invasion as from the Yuan dynasty from Zhong Yuan, but China also never considered Korea as part of China. You only heart of 满汉一家亲, never 满元一家亲. Double talk?
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Originally posted by Poh Ah Pak:
Yes, I think most of us could feel this dark agenda to sabotage Olympics from the West and it is causing lots of resentment.
They will fail.
They have nothing but cheap tricks and stupid propaganda.
I hope Beijing can turn anger into strength and win the most Olympics Gold medals.
I have been watching the moves of the USA for a long time, they are hell bent on containing China.
That is so true. But as you pointed out, people unfortunately buy into Western propaganda and automatically align themselves with the Western (read: American) view.
But good thing is that we still have many sane voices, like yourself here.