Originally posted by jojobeach:Why should there be a joint contribution ?
Since your mother can support herself.. your father shouldn't have to pay for anything mah. Isn't this what you guys want ?
Somemore.. if your father wants to start a new family with another woman.. his new wife have to move in with your father into your house.. then if he has to pay for your mother.. then how is he going to support his new family ?
Base on the guys argument.. men shouldn't have to pay for his wife if she is self sufficient , NO ?
Like I said earlier, the fact that one party will require separate living arrangements is a consequence of the divorce, unless either party is willing to pay for it entirely. Therefore it is a shared consequence. Either way, both parties will live in separate homes. The original home therefore, is only kept out of convenience, and an agreement regarding shared cost of the additional home will then be discussed, and this will take into account the income of both sides and their contributions to the family etc.
Originally posted by SGBajoran:Pretty much a no brainer, if you are business when you hire a female you run the 'risk' of paying for maternity leave - i.e paying for no productive work. That's the way business see's it. Likewise if you hire a Singaporean male citizen or 1st generation PR, you have the NS liability.
Soloution to both is simple: bring in paid PATERNITY (i.e for the father) leave for men EQUAL to the paid maternity leave provisions. That sorts that, now the NS issue. That can be solved by introducing NS for females and introducing non-military options for both men and women.
Once this is done, business have no reason to disciminate on basis of gender. That then leaves the issue of racial and non-business related linguistic discrimination, which can be discussed in another post.
I think what he said about introducing both military and non-military options for both sexes (picking either one will be compulsory) is a sensible idea. Both sexes will have to do something, and they can express a preference for either option which will be taken into account when recruiting people for the army. Alternatively, men can be all be in the military and women all in the non-military section, but they'd still have to do something productive. Also NS goals and objectives should be revised and refocused on to remind everyone that the goal is to learn to protect our country and not to punish people unnecessarily for ridiculous matters.
Originally posted by MrSean:I think what he said about introducing both military and non-military options for both sexes (picking either one will be compulsory) is a sensible idea. Both sexes will have to do something, and they can express a preference for either option which will be taken into account when recruiting people for the army. Alternatively, men can be all be in the military and women all in the non-military section, but they'd still have to do something productive. Also NS goals and objectives should be revised and refocused on to remind everyone that the goal is to learn to protect our country and not to punish people unnecessarily for ridiculous matters.
haha.. today u want women to serve NS, be it military or non military.. tmr u want them to do IPPT and go for reservist too.. just to be fair..
Originally posted by purpledragon84:haha.. today u want women to serve NS, be it military or non military.. tmr u want them to do IPPT and go for reservist too.. just to be fair..
ippt, maybe not.
reservice, or smth like that, may be feasible.
assuming that women serve their National Service (not saf, but other forms of service to the nation), as what i had mentioned before, social workers, nursing.
singapore have a dearth of social workers, it seems. with an aging population, the issue of social welfare will be a matter gaining in importance, and with so, the demands for social workers.
nursing is also quite important. our hospitals also have a shortage of nurses and other medical personels. to the extent that 60-70% of nurses i see in NUH comprises of foreigners. so why not have mandatory NS to solve this need for trained medical personels?
it is not like in the SAF. nursing actually does have real value to the society, as oppose to chiong sua-ing if u r in saf.
and the 2 above mentioned vocations would require recourse, for them to be updated in the latest trend and technique of that vocation. so, i suppose u will be needing "reservice".
and again, i would like to reiterate that ns as medical personels in public hospitals (not military hospitals, we have medics nsf for that), are really useful to the country.
remember SARs? there was a shortage of medical personels then, when the docs and nurses themselves are also infected, with no one to replace them. having a well trained population of medical personels would be useful, especially with avian flu threatening us. (and my medical personels, i don't mean only nurses. you can have assistant cardiologist etc.... and if they need to complete their diploma, degree or anything related to their field of NS, they should be granted deferment. )
Originally posted by deathmaster:
ippt, maybe not.reservice, or smth like that, may be feasible.
assuming that women serve their National Service (not saf, but other forms of service to the nation), as what i had mentioned before, social workers, nursing.
singapore have a dearth of social workers, it seems. with an aging population, the issue of social welfare will be a matter gaining in importance, and with so, the demands for social workers.
nursing is also quite important. our hospitals also have a shortage of nurses and other medical personels. to the extent that 60-70% of nurses i see in NUH comprises of foreigners. so why not have mandatory NS to solve this need for trained medical personels?
it is not like in the SAF. nursing actually does have real value to the society, as oppose to chiong sua-ing if u r in saf.
and the 2 above mentioned vocations would require recourse, for them to be updated in the latest trend and technique of that vocation. so, i suppose u will be needing "reservice".
and again, i would like to reiterate that ns as medical personels in public hospitals (not military hospitals, we have medics nsf for that), are really useful to the country.
remember SARs? there was a shortage of medical personels then, when the docs and nurses themselves are also infected, with no one to replace them. having a well trained population of medical personels would be useful, especially with avian flu threatening us. (and my medical personels, i don't mean only nurses. you can have assistant cardiologist etc.... and if they need to complete their diploma, degree or anything related to their field of NS, they should be granted deferment. )
I am not against females conscript.
But if you want them to take on jobs like social workers and nurses.. I doubt it is a practical idea.
Not many females is cut out to be a social worker or a nurse.
They reason why that sector is short handed is plainly because.. it requires special training and very dedicated personnel to carry out the work.
I am afraid of blood and I faint at the sight of it.. can I be a nurse ? You dare to let me poke your arms with a needle and take care of your wound ?
And being a social worker requires much patience and work ethics. How many females can be one ?
Clerical , admistrative and communication work.. maybe can. That way.. the males need only focus on field training.
what makes you think that working in a hospital definitely involve drawing blood from patients?
just as an army need clerks, so do hospitals. pharmacists, x-rays, cardio, all doesn't involve blood.
and you think all men are cut out to be soldiers meh? no, but still have to die die suck thumb. that's the way it is...sadly.
Originally posted by jojobeach:I am not against females conscript.
But if you want them to take on jobs like social workers and nurses.. I doubt it is a practical idea.
Not many females is cut out to be a social worker or a nurse.
They reason why that sector is short handed is plainly because.. it requires special training and very dedicated personnel to carry out the work.
I am afraid of blood and I faint at the sight of it.. can I be a nurse ? You dare to let me poke your arms with a needle and take care of your wound ?
And being a social worker requires much patience and work ethics. How many females can be one ?
Clerical , admistrative and communication work.. maybe can. That way.. the males need only focus on field training.
Oh come on, being a social working/ nurse is already getting off fairly light! I would definitely rather go for an NS that requires only medical knowledge or a social worker. Many men freeze when they have grenades in their hands after pulling the pin, does that mean they don't train themselves to throw it anyway?
Yes, if you were trained, I would let you draw blood from me. If you were trained, you wouldn't let your phobia of blood get the better of you.
How many females can be a social worker? Then why not implement the system whereby both girls and guys can choose if they prefer to join the military or medicine or social work group? That way women who feel more inclined towards the military can join it, and guys who are inclined to join medical/ social work groups can have their choice too.
Again, as deathmaster has pointed out, these two ideas indeed serve a true higher purpose. Right now, NS with the SAF seems to be more focused on the unnecessary details (like marching, which serves no higher purpose) rather than the true goals that NS was established with in mind. I maintain that the SAF needs to refocus on its goals because it seems to have sidetracked somewhere along the way and lost the idea that NS is about protecting our country and not torturing our men.
Maybe there could be recommendations from teachers for students who seem more inclined to medicine for them to join the medical group. Would certainly provide some form of motivation for students to do better at school, too, which isn't half bad.
Originally posted by MrSean:Oh come on, being a social working/ nurse is already getting off fairly light! I would definitely rather go for an NS that requires only medical knowledge or a social worker. Many men freeze when they have grenades in their hands after pulling the pin, does that mean they don't train themselves to throw it anyway?
Yes, if you were trained, I would let you draw blood from me. If you were trained, you wouldn't let your phobia of blood get the better of you.
How many females can be a social worker? Then why not implement the system whereby both girls and guys can choose if they prefer to join the military or medicine or social work group? That way women who feel more inclined towards the military can join it, and guys who are inclined to join medical/ social work groups can have their choice too.
Again, as deathmaster has pointed out, these two ideas indeed serve a true higher purpose. Right now, NS with the SAF seems to be more focused on the unnecessary details (like marching, which serves no higher purpose) rather than the true goals that NS was established with in mind. I maintain that the SAF needs to refocus on its goals because it seems to have sidetracked somewhere along the way and lost the idea that NS is about protecting our country and not torturing our men.
Maybe there could be recommendations from teachers for students who seem more inclined to medicine for them to join the medical group. Would certainly provide some form of motivation for students to do better at school, too, which isn't half bad.
I dunno about you guys lor.
But I wouldn't want to put my life in the hands of some part-time or temporary health care personnel.
When I go hospital or health clinic, I do expect the personnel handling my case to be highly qualified and well trained.
Sorry ,but I'd rather leave those two sector to the professionals.
Admin/Clerk no problem.
Originally posted by jojobeach:I dunno about you guys lor.
But I wouldn't want to put my life in the hands of some part-time or temporary health care personnel.
When I go hospital or health clinic, I do expect the personnel handling my case to be highly qualified and well trained.
Sorry ,but I'd rather leave those two sector to the professionals.
Admin/Clerk no problem.
Then why are we leaving the fate of our country in the hands of "unprofessional" soldiers? The point of sending them in is that they BECOME professionals in the area of medical healthcare.
Perhaps admin and clerk duties would be feasible but... It's still sort of unfair, that is the very least that men can get in NS, and most have to do more than that. Besides admin and clerk duties there should be other options too.
In NS to get a desk job you'd probably have to crash your car and lose your legs lol.
Originally posted by MrSean:
Then why are we leaving the fate of our country in the hands of "unprofessional" soldiers? The point of sending them in is that they BECOME professionals in the area of medical healthcare.Perhaps admin and clerk duties would be feasible but... It's still sort of unfair, that is the very least that men can get in NS, and most have to do more than that. Besides admin and clerk duties there should be other options too.
In NS to get a desk job you'd probably have to crash your car and lose your legs lol.
I never say I like the idea of forcing young men to protect our country.
When a person , male or female is not passionate about the job, it cannot be done well.
Well.. when women now fills the admin and desk bound job.. men no longer needs to self mutilate for that purpose , isn't that a good thing ?
What other options ? You havn't even been to NS yet.. how can you know ?
Originally posted by jojobeach:I never say I like the idea of forcing young men to protect our country.
When a person , male or female is not passionate about the job, it cannot be done well.
Well.. when women now fills the admin and desk bound job.. men no longer needs to self mutilate for that purpose , isn't that a good thing ?
What other options ? You havn't even been to NS yet.. how can you know ?
I agree. People should be allowed to do the jobs that they want to. It increases productivity on so many levels.
You're missing the point, the fact that women are taking desk jobs means that they are still doing less than men are...
I don't have to be a paramedic to know what blood is. Other options... I still think social working is a good idea. Personally I would be inclined to social work and medical work rather than military life, both serve a higher purpose and I think I'd be more suited for those anyway.
I'm not a very creative person, does anyone else have ideas lol?
*yawnz*
whiney ah gua.
women spend more than men, so they are crucial for the economy...lol...juz kiddin...
MrSean you ah gua issit? dun wan go NS ah?
everyone has to go through it...you father has to go through it...pls la...if you brag about having to go in and do the honour of protecting our country then just leave pls...we dunnit you...men are naturally more physically and mentally fit than women when it comes to military stuff...so its just natural to pick men to do the job...imagine if the government make every citizen be it men nor women go for ns...don't you think our workforce would be in shit?
Originally posted by Deino:men are naturally more physically and mentally fit than women when it comes to military stuff...so its just natural to pick men to do the job
So have you ever heard of the 4 minute mile? Nothing is impossible. Change the mindset of the people. The 4 minute mile, where scientists say that human bodies cannot run 1 mile in 4 minutes and digrams and reasons were given. It was done by a person. The term, "its all in the mind" is more true than you think.
So what is natural? If you love it, you will do it. If you don't it will be very dangerous indeed. Natural is in the mind. What I love to do and what I can do is very different. Two very different things worth thinking about.
Therefore, if I hate something totally, planning on doing well will be the last thing on my mind. As the psychics always say, what you think of can often bring the greatest disasters. Imagine a group of people using all their hatred to think of a specific thing, that is very dangerous. The accumulation of thoughts.
So, considering the 4 minute mile, what makes you think that women are not the natural choice for it? Natural is all in the mind.
And if someone hates what he is doing totally, is it actually wise to force them?
Originally posted by Beautiful951:
So have you ever heard of the 4 minute mile? Nothing is impossible. Change the mindset of the people. The 4 minute mile, where scientists say that human bodies cannot run 1 mile in 4 minutes and digrams and reasons were given. It was done by a person. The term, "its all in the mind" is more true than you think.So what is natural? If you love it, you will do it. If you don't it will be very dangerous indeed. Natural is in the mind. What I love to do and what I can do is very different. Two very different things worth thinking about.
Therefore, if I hate something totally, planning on doing well will be the last thing on my mind. As the psychics always say, what you think of can often bring the greatest disasters. Imagine a group of people using all their hatred to think of a specific thing, that is very dangerous. The accumulation of thoughts.
So, considering the 4 minute mile, what makes you think that women are not the natural choice for it? Natural is all in the mind.
And if someone hates what he is doing totally, is it actually wise to force them?
i think we are living in a different world...
if you want to think that there is total freedom in this world or country, go somewhere else...
yes its not impossible...but you should also give the situation its percentages of success...your utopia could only exist if there is no such thing as gender in this world...
Originally posted by Deino:i think we are living in a different world...
if you want to think that there is total freedom in this world or country, go somewhere else...
yes its not impossible...but you should also give the situation its percentages of success...your utopia could only exist if there is no such thing as gender in this world...
Why should I go somewhere else? Do you actually think I really think anyone can provide total freedom? No I do not. Thats why I am still here.
Percentages of success is created over time. By humans. If we believe that the women are stronger, it will happen over time. Over generations. Limiting mindset, in other words.
Originally posted by Beautiful951:Why should I go somewhere else? Do you actually think I really think anyone can provide total freedom? No I do not. Thats why I am still here.
Percentages of success is created over time. By humans. If we believe that the women are stronger, it will happen over time. Over generations. Limiting mindset, in other words.
hmm...
i think we are seriously far from it...you know why?
humans are born egos and hypocrites...i can tell you that you can only succeed if the ratio of men:women population were to drop very fast, brainwash every single men in the world or like i said if gender doesn't exist...if you we're to say it over generations, i think that by that generation, i dun think singapore would even exist...its just wot i think...i dun mind women in the military though...but imagine putting men and women in the same room...imagine if our women soldier were to be captured by an enemy...worse things could happen to them then would men...would any man want their daughter to go through war? it may not be impossible but it would be darn hard to change the people's mindset about this...
here we have people whining about having to go NS or military, the inequality of gender becoz women are more protected by the law...oh wotever...the world is falling apart...
Originally posted by Deino:hmm...
i think we are seriously far from it...you know why?
humans are born egos and hypocrites...i can tell you that you can only succeed if the ratio of men:women population were to drop very fast, brainwash every single men in the world or like i said if gender doesn't exist...if you we're to say it over generations, i think that by that generation, i dun think singapore would even exist...its just wot i think...i dun mind women in the military though...but imagine putting men and women in the same room...imagine if our women soldier were to be captured by an enemy...worse things could happen to them then would men...would any man want their daughter to go through war? it may not be impossible but it would be darn hard to change the people's mindset about this...
here we have people whining about having to go NS or military, the inequality of gender becoz women are more protected by the law...oh wotever...the world is falling apart...
haha. true true.
But I do think a little differently. But well said. Every word is true.
Originally posted by Beautiful951:
haha. true true.But I do think a little differently. But well said. Every word is true.
yeah...i always try to learn to respect differences...
i was hoping to see a beautiful future for the planet...
till then the only thing i can do is enjoy wot i can while i can...sigh...
hmm...prolly i think the reason why i dun like the idea of women goin through ns or military is becoz i cannot imagine any of my loved ones having to go through it...hmm...maybe i just feel too caring...its like i wished i could put smiles on everyone's faces by taking away all their burden...that the utopia i'm wishing for i guess...am i talking nonsense?hmm...maybe its becoz i wished i was more selfless than i am right now
Originally posted by Deino:hmm...prolly i think the reason why i dun like the idea of women goin through ns or military is becoz i cannot imagine any of my loved ones having to go through it...hmm...maybe i just feel to caring...its like i wished i could put smiles on everyone's faces by taking away all their burden...that the utopia i'm wishing for i guess...am i talking nonsense?hmm...maybe its becoz i wished i was more selfless than i am right now
its just your thoughts. So no. Everyone has different idea about all kinds of things. I would not say you are strange.
Originally posted by Deino:hmm...prolly i think the reason why i dun like the idea of women goin through ns or military is becoz i cannot imagine any of my loved ones having to go through it...hmm...maybe i just feel too caring...its like i wished i could put smiles on everyone's faces by taking away all their burden...that the utopia i'm wishing for i guess...am i talking nonsense?hmm...maybe its becoz i wished i was more selfless than i am right now
Oh come on, listen to yourself speak. The fact that you wouldn't want your loved ones to go through NS shows just how nasty it actually is. Perhaps men indeed are more suitable for the job; nevertheless it does not mean we should be obliged to do this. What about our own personal interests? During this period of time, women can achieve a lot more than us. It's especially hurting to the ego...
Besides, the fact that we are doing our nation a great favour, donating two years of our lives through lawful obligation while women are not bound to do anything for the government for these two years, should mean that we are at the very least reasonably treated in the military. I'm sure you know the stories, I have not yet heard a single person tell me he was treated better than a rat might have been during BMT. Surely you agree with me on this.
Also, I feel that our military needs to refocus on its goals. NS, under our SAF, was set up with the goal of teaching our men to protect our nation. Yet, and again I am sure you will agree with me, much of the time the men are punished for doing the most ordinary things in the army where they are not allowed for no practical reason. There are also many things done in the military that serve no higher purpose, and are simply for ceremonial purposes and for show. Take marching for example: they say it instills discipline, but frankly I think I learn discipline not through exaggerated walking but rather through doing my best and working hard in everything. They say it teaches teamwork; I learn teamwork better at school doing project work than I would in the military marching. They are assuming that all men are undisciplined before they enter NS, and also going by that same logic, women are therefore all angels.
Anyway, even though the average men may be more suitable for the military than the average women, there will definitely be women who are more suited for it than some men. Shouldn't they, then, be forced to join the military instead of these men who are less suited for it than them?
There are many other issues besides NS anyway. Take caning for example, any guy who does XXX will be receive A amount of years in jail and B amount of strokes. A woman who commits that exact same crime gets only A amount of years, not A+BX years, where BX is a conversion of strokes to jail time. There is no reason for them not to be caned, and even if there were, they should correspondingly receive a number of years in jail.
Originally posted by Deino:women spend more than men, so they are crucial for the economy...lol...juz kiddin...
MrSean you ah gua issit? dun wan go NS ah?
everyone has to go through it...you father has to go through it...pls la...if you brag about having to go in and do the honour of protecting our country then just leave pls...we dunnit you...men are naturally more physically and mentally fit than women when it comes to military stuff...so its just natural to pick men to do the job...imagine if the government make every citizen be it men nor women go for ns...don't you think our workforce would be in shit?
You yourself agree that men lose out in terms of advancing their careers to a very significant extent by giving two years of their lives away. In return, do those women give us a portion of whatever they earned during the two extra years they have? No. It is not fair that the women are doing nothing while we are doing something that really, no one wants to do at all because they don't benefit from it.
Men are doing A+B, while women are only doing B.
Don't you agree that something is wrong? They ask for equality, we listen. They have equal voting rights, they have equal rights to jobs, they have equal rights to almost everything, but when it comes to things like punishments under the law and NS, men are always hit harder. I'm not saying that all women advocate this, but our government has a duty to ensure that we don't overdo "equality". Equality does not mean women are a step above men. It means that they are given equal opportunities and rights. It means that we don't treat our men like shit just because the social stereotype is that women are delicate. Women today are far less delicate than most men think, and often they themselves encourage this image so that men are asked to do the dirty work for them.
Originally posted by MrSean:You yourself agree that men lose out in terms of advancing their careers to a very significant extent by giving two years of their lives away. In return, do those women give us a portion of whatever they earned during the two extra years they have? No. It is not fair that the women are doing nothing while we are doing something that really, no one wants to do at all because they don't benefit from it.
Men are doing A+B, while women are only doing B.
Don't you agree that something is wrong? They ask for equality, we listen. They have equal voting rights, they have equal rights to jobs, they have equal rights to almost everything, but when it comes to things like punishments under the law and NS, men are always hit harder. I'm not saying that all women advocate this, but our government has a duty to ensure that we don't overdo "equality". Equality does not mean women are a step above men. It means that they are given equal opportunities and rights. It means that we don't treat our men like shit just because the social stereotype is that women are delicate. Women today are far less delicate than most men think, and often they themselves encourage this image so that men are asked to do the dirty work for them.
I do agree that I don't like this. I would also like to ask why take two years of life? And getting treated badly. I have never heard of people say they actually liked it, except in compositions. And that is to get good marks sooooo
Originally posted by Beautiful951:I do agree that I don't like this. I would also like to ask why take two years of life? And getting treated badly. I have never heard of people say they actually liked it, except in compositions. And that is to get good marks sooooo
Most say that it was a life-changing experience for them, but most of these guys are the ones who were fooling around in school anyway, not everyone's like that...
Even the guys that felt it was a life-changing experience will admit that basic training is pretty much effed up.