Even if electricity prices come down, the despots will raise the prices of other things to feed their gambling habits.... and the the PM's husband and cursed despot's son in law's gambling addiction...
Originally posted by Stevenson101:They can have the knowhow, they certainly have the knowledge to make things more efficient they still cannot ignore geological differences and physical constraints (How much barrels you can squeeze on an oil tanker and how much oil tankers you've got)
One main difference between Singapore and the other countries (Taiwan, Hongkong, Korea) is that Singapore relies on LNG and oils for its energy generation while Taiwan, Hongkong and Korea relies on the cheaper, but far more polluting coal fired power plants. You can look this up if you want to, Singapore doesn't use coal fired power plants.
That is the main reason of the difference in power prices. This point here is crucial, because it also account for why our air is not as badly polluted as Hong Kong's.
{editted] I did a quick check, and it turns out the Hua neng owned Tuas Power is planning to build a supposedly 'clean' coal power plant. Whether it is truly clean or not i am not sure. But i just like to say this since i said Singapore doesn't used coal fired power plants.
I already stated the reason why it's at 90 now. Because the oil that we're using now was bought at $90. You need to pre order them a few months before to ensure you do not run out before the next shipment. Unless of course, that they do not furthur adjust the prices next year than your reasoning would hold weight.
How much could they make from the inflated charges? You forget they also had to pay more for the oil too, how much more could they have made?
Even if you use Natural Gas to fire the generators, it will only cost about 12% more compared to conventional coal fired generators. So if other countries charge at 20 cents per kwh, it should cost us not more than 23 cents per kwh and not the 30.45 cents they charged us from Oct - Dec 2008.
"Without emission trading the production cost of gas electricity is 51,2 €/MWh and that of coal electricity 45,7 €/MWh"
https://oa.doria.fi/handle/10024/39685
From the information above, it can be calculated that 1 kwh of electricity (natural gas) will only cost SG$0.1024 (approx.) to produce.
The difference between coal fired and gas fired generators is only 12%, therefore how to you justify the price variance 60% below. This calculation was done in Oct 2008.
What would you pay if you used exactly the same electricity (500 kwh) in Hong Kong and Singapore?
Hong Kong:
First 150 kwh: (150 kwh) x (HKD 0.959) x (Ex-Rate 0.19055) = SGD 27.41
Next 150 kwh: (150 kwh) x (HKD 1.059) x (Ex-Rate 0.19055) = SGD 30. 27
Next 200 kwh: (200 kwh) x (HKD 1.157) x (Ex-Rate 0.19055) = SGD 44.09
Total ------------------------------------------------------------------ = SGD 101.77
Ex-Rate: Exchange Rate
Singapore:
500 kwh: (500 kwh) x (SGD 0.3045) = SGD 152.25
GST 7% ---------------------------------- = SGD 10.66
Total ------------------------------------- = SGD 162.91
.
.
SGD 101.77 is the amount Singaporeans should be paying for 500 kwh usage in a free market economy, instead Singaporeans are paying SGD 162.91 inflated by the government in the form of indirect taxes probably to recover from losses in overseas investments. A stark difference of 60% between a free market economy and Temasek's (P4P) Singapore Power.
Source: Hong Kong's HEH Electricity Tariff Table
Source: Singapore Power's Electricity Tariff Table
http://politics.sgforums.com/forums/10/topics/332080?page=10
Don't be ridiculous to think that air is not free to move around and hovers in one specific location. The air quality in Hong Kong is due to it's close proximity to China, not specifically due to it's coal fired generators. Haven't you heard about the air quality in Beijing during the Olympic Games 2008? If air hovers in one specific location, we probably won't experience the smoke from burning of fields in Indonesia during farming season.
Are you related to kramnave by any chance? You two seem to have the same thinking.
If you run a business, you will definitely go out of business, UNLESS you are running a necessity providing monopoly like SP. ![]()
Originally posted by kramnave 07 Oct `08, 7:19PM :
You order 100 PS3 for delivery next month at $400, are you going to sell it at $200 if prices go down next month ?
Originally posted by maurizio13 07 Oct `08, 7:48PM :
If the whole wide world is selling at $200, don't tell me you going to sell at $400?
Originally posted by reyes 07 Oct `08, 10:45PM :
wrong comparison la. if PS3 drop below $400 on market price. you still want to sell above $400?
unless you think the consumer market is stupid. in this case, the energy and govt are taking singaporean for a ride.
FYI, they don't pay for oil, they pay for natural gas.
How much could they have made from overcharging us for electricity?
A conservative estimate.
Singapore has a population of around 4.84 million, say with 5 members to a household, there would be 968,000 households.
Say each use a modest 500 kwh.
For the three months it would rake in an extra:
SG$ 61.14 x 968,000 x 3 months = SG$ 177,550,560
We haven't even factored in the commercial aspects.
Singapore Power generated 37,838 gwh last year.
http://politics.sgforums.com/forums/10/topics/332080?page=10
If they overcharge us by just $0.10 per kwh, from the data of 37,838 gwh they generated last year. They would have yielded an excess profit of $946 million for the 3 months (37,838 x $0.10 per kwh x 3/12 mths).
A lot of people have impression that coal powered electricity should be cheap and gas powered electricity should be more expensive.
Hong Kong does not use only coal which makes up less than 50% of CLP power. They use gas and nuclear energy as well.
Coal plants require a huge amount of capital investment which drives up the KWH cost. Gas powered plants may be even cheaper than coal!


Source
The Royal Academy of Engineering in UK
http://www.raeng.org.uk/news/publications/list/reports/Cost_Generation_Commentary.pdf
err...could you explain a little on your post kilua? I'm rather confused on what you're trying to say.
I'm rather surprised that Hong Kong has nuclear energy though, thanks for letting me know.
Are you related to kramnave by any chance? You two seem to have the same thinking.
If you run a business, you will definitely go out of business, UNLESS you are running a necessity providing monopoly like SP.
Err no.
And i don't recall saying anything to that end. My point has always been the same, if i make the order for goods to be delivered a month later, if the price dropped within that time i'm still required to pay the amount agreed upon originally. The same applies if the price increased in that time.
I won't know how the big corporations work, but small businesses to my experience has always functioned this way.I don't see how you draw the conclusion that it is a formula for business failure.
Originally posted by Stevenson101:err...could you explain a little on your post kilua? I'm rather confused on what you're trying to say.
I'm rather surprised that Hong Kong has nuclear energy though, thanks for letting me know.
Err no.
And i don't recall saying anything to that end. My point has always been the same, if i make the order for goods to be delivered a month later, if the price dropped within that time i'm still required to pay the amount agreed upon originally. The same applies if the price increased in that time.
I won't know how the big corporations work, but small businesses to my experience has always functioned this way.I don't see how you draw the conclusion that it is a formula for business failure.
Actually, what kilua was partially saying, was that as I mentioned, the electricity charges at such a high price, cannot be explained with other methods, other than to suspect that our govt is profiteering from its citizens (again). All the talk about Natural gases being more costly, blaming Hong Kong's use of coal as the reason for being much cheaper than us, are all highly debatable.
And history has shown that they have done this over and over again. Just take Singtel as an example. Profiteering on the poor citizens (putting burdens on them) in order to strengthen their businesses.
Small businesses can use many methods of negotiations Stevenson, the small business that thinks that they have no choice but to accept direct prices (take it or leave it deals), usually cannot survive for long, and probably will remain small.
Originally posted by Stevenson101:err...could you explain a little on your post kilua? I'm rather confused on what you're trying to say.
Coal has been used to explain why electricity in Hong Kong is much cheaper than Singapore. I think you also mentioned it in your post.
Intuitively, we would think coal is cheap while gas is more expensive, which explains the difference in pricing.
Its true that the fuel cost for coal is cheaper than gas. However, to build a coal plant requires 2-3 times more initial investment.More could be said for a nuclear plant. The cost of the high initial invesment would be passed back to the consumers.
As mentioned in the earlier post, a study by The Royal Academy of Engineering in UK, after factoring various hidden costs,gas fired CCGT which Singapore uses has the lowest cost per kwh.
One qualifier is that the cost can vary depending on location and proximity to resources.
The results of the study for different types of power plant are as follows
( all prices in UK pounds)
Cost to generate per KWH
Gas fired CCGT 2.2 cents
Nuclear fission 2.3 Cents
Coal powered PF steam plant 2.5 cents
Coal powered CFB plant 2.6 cents
Coal fired gasification IGCC 3.2 cents
Going by your numbers, is it reasonable for me to assume that that NG powered plants are actually cheaper than coal fire plants? Eg: more efficient, cheaper to build..etc.
If so, wouldn't the world be more inclined to build more natural gas power plants then? But somehow, it doesn't seemed to be the trend.
I'm not idealistic enough to believe that the power companies aren't trying to gain money from us if they can but at the same time i find accounting the entire price difference to just plain greed is just too simple an answer.
The government wants more foreign businesses to invest here,letting the power bill go beyond a reasonable level, discouraging such investments hurts them just as much it hurts us.
Originally posted by Stevenson101:Going by your numbers, is it reasonable for me to assume that that NG powered plants are actually cheaper than coal fire plants? Eg: more efficient, cheaper to build..etc.
If so, wouldn't the world be more inclined to build more natural gas power plants then? But somehow, it doesn't seemed to be the trend.
I'm not idealistic enough to believe that the power companies aren't trying to gain money from us if they can but at the same time i find accounting the entire price difference to just plain greed is just too simple an answer.
The government wants more foreign businesses to invest here,letting the power bill go beyond a reasonable level, discouraging such investments hurts them just as much it hurts us.
that is why I advocate a balanced political environment, of 2 parties, 1 pro-business balanced by the other that is pro-citizen.
If you have no balancing power in check, who's to say what's the reasonable level? Letting a pro-business party determine a 'reasonable' level for the citizens, is likened to the conflict of asking a private company running the public transport system to provide low cost transport. It runs counter to their objective, to maximize profits.
Similarly, you don't expect a pro-business party to think adequately for the people.
Originally posted by soul_rage:that is why I advocate a balanced political environment, of 2 parties, 1 pro-business balanced by the other that is pro-citizen.
If you have no balancing power in check, who's to say what's the reasonable level? Letting a pro-business party determine a 'reasonable' level for the citizens, is likened to the conflict of asking a private company running the public transport system to provide low cost transport. It runs counter to their objective, to maximize profits.
Similarly, you don't expect a pro-business party to think adequately for the people.
Sound like American politcs, but can we be so gracious to live with 2 parties environment, and can guarantee a balanced one. Not until the day when changi airport close down due to protest by pro citizen party, u may regret the 2 parties system here, especially in an asian culture.
Originally posted by angel7030:
Sound like American politcs, but can we be so gracious to live with 2 parties environment, and can guarantee a balanced one. Not until the day when changi airport close down due to protest by pro citizen party, u may regret the 2 parties system here, especially in an asian culture.
Well, a democratic society doesn't necessarily equate to a chaotic one. That's PAP's fave tactics, shock and awe. "If you don't have us, you will be maids and labourers", "We are a better govt system, look at Taiwan, do u want that sort of govt?" etc.
In fact, there are many ideas that I can suggest in encouraging a more democratic society, while at the same time, minimizing the negative aspects democracy bring.
And nobody promises a utopian balance, it's probably not practical. However, putting in some more opposition will ensure that the PAP will sit up and listen to the people (in some way this IS a balance), rather than allowing the PAP to continue to believe that no matter how much they tax us, they can get away with it at the end by just throwing some cheap freebies at us.
If the above happens, it might even encourage more Singaporeans to devote some of their time to politics in helping to ensure that politicians do what they should do, ie, caring for the people, and not treating politics as a career.
Originally posted by soul_rage:Well, a democratic society doesn't necessarily equate to a chaotic one. That's PAP's fave tactics, shock and awe. "If you don't have us, you will be maids and labourers", "We are a better govt system, look at Taiwan, do u want that sort of govt?" etc.
In fact, there are many ideas that I can suggest in encouraging a more democratic society, while at the same time, minimizing the negative aspects democracy bring.
And nobody promises a utopian balance, it's probably not practical. However, putting in some more opposition will ensure that the PAP will sit up and listen to the people (in some way this IS a balance), rather than allowing the PAP to continue to believe that no matter how much they tax us, they can get away with it at the end by just throwing some cheap freebies at us.
If the above happens, it might even encourage more Singaporeans to devote some of their time to politics in helping to ensure that politicians do what they should do, ie, caring for the people, and not treating politics as a career.
I agree with what you say and acknowledge we need a stronger opposition to at least make the PAP sit up and listen. You cannot get a 3G army if it's commanded by 2G officers.
The problem is people tend to think of democracy as a right, but not as a responsibility. They feel they have the right for what they want to hear, but not what they need to hear, believing it's incompetence. This understanding can easily be gotten by observing US politics, even during the presidential debates McCain and Obama still insisted that Russia attacked Georgia first.
How much debates and arguments have you went through in this forum? How many ended up in vulgarities and endless quote wars? Who ultimately wins an argument? The man who is right, or the man who is the loudest?
I dislike democracy, because the favor is badly skewed towards people who can talk well not people who can solve problems well. People who can incite, not people who can inspire.
You get a government staffed by lawyers, instead of industry professionals and scientists.
If Singapore is to ever become a true AND healthy democracy, first and forthmost we need to recognize the fact that a democracy is a responsibility, not a free ticket to behave whatever and whenever we like.
Originally posted by ArtBoon:Why Singapore Power must continue to make money
In Singapore Power's annual report (31 March 08), the group balance sheet listed intangible assets of $4.57bn. The main item there is a $3.27bn "goodwill".When a company buys something and pays a price above the value of the net tangible asset (sometime known as fair value) of that something, the excess amount is defined as goodwill.In this case, the asset is Alinta, a package of Australian gas and electricity network. Singapore Power announced the acquisition in March 07. Joint buyer is Babcock & Brown. The price was A$7.4bn. (www.iht.com/articles/2007/03/30/business/alinta.php) A month later, Singapore Power and other buyers chased up the price by another 7%. The acquisition was completed on 31 Aug 07.In Singapore Power's book, the $3.27bn is the amount Singapore Power paid above the book value of Alinta. Normally, this excess amount has to be depreciated over 20 years. That would have meant a $164m negative impact on the annual bottomline for the next 20 years. It would have lowered the 2008 earning by 14%, still tolerable considering Singapore Power's profit would have been still close to $1bn.However, Singapore Power with foresight changed its accounting rule on 1 April 05 and discontinued amortisation of goodwill. The goodwill is henceforth subject to "testing for impairment". My layman understanding is this means every year the management will haggle with its auditors on whether or not to reduce the value of the goodwill.Obviously, Singapore Power did not intend to engage in such unproductive debate with its KPMG auditors.Singapore Power owns 51% of SP Australian Network (SP Ausnet), which is listed on Singapore Stock Exchange. SP Ausnet has stated from onstart that it is the investment vehicle for electricity/gas assets for Singapore Power.Exploiting an arbitrage opportunity like a good investment banker, Singapore Power had intended to buy Alinta assets and onsell to SP Ausnet. In Sep 07, SP Ausnet announced that it would buy Alinta assets being purchased by Singapore Power and pay Singapore Power A$8bn, the price being paid by Singapore Power, plus additional "transaction costs and holding costs" incurred by Singapore Power. Also, the price being paid by Singapore Power is subject to "adjustment and assumptions of liabilities" by Singapore Power.Which means, if the transaction has gone through, Singapore Power would have earned something. How much is that something, I would not know. Since Singapore Power is the majority shareholder of SP Ausnet, why did it not ask SP Ausnet to buy Alinta assets directly from Alinta shareholders? I don't know. I like to guess that perhaps Singapore Power wanted to earn extra investment banking fee.Unfortunately for Singapore Power, the credit crisis hit the whole world in end 2007. SP Ausnet subsequently called off the purchase of Alinta assets from Singapore Power in Dec 07.Fast forward. On 29 Sep 08 Singapore Power announced a 22% increase in electricity price in Singapore for 4Q 08. It stated that the reason was its price was pegged to forward fuel price which had increased to S$155/ barrel. I am shocked, like a lot of its customers.But wait. Let's come back to the Alinta goodwill on Singapore Power's balance sheet. The $3.27bn comprises (i) $1.6bn classified as "management services", (ii) $1.16bn as "gas transmission" and (iii) $491m as "others". The largest item, "management services," sounds like the type of business not backed by much assets, and could arguably have a very low market value. I note that the auditors were saying that there was a 12 month deadline for Singapore Power's management to assess "impairment", if there were significant changes in underlying assumptions. That deadline fell on 31 Aug 2008 (a month later came the 22% increase in price). I also note that Babcock & Brown, the parent company of Singapore Power's partner in the Alinta deal, has meanwhile seen its share price torpedoed from A$28 in Dec 07 to 16 cent currently. Market has completely discounted the value of its underlying assets. Amongst the many things that Babcock & Brown does is infrastructure and project financing involving power.Is Singapore Power trying to capitalise on the "peg" on high oil price to squeeze more money from its customers, to make up for reduction of the value of goodwill in its book? If I am a shareholder, I will be happy that the management is doing this. Sadly, I never feel like a shareholder of Singapore Power.Can Singapore Power not control its cost? Singapore Power claims that since it is only a messenger, it is subject to the mercy of oil price fluctuation. Fair enough, although I would have expected the management to use hedging tools to minimise volatility. And if management does not hedge volatility, then rightfully if you want to pass high cost to customers, you should also pass proportionate amount of cost saving back to your customers when oil price comes down. You want to live by the sword, then you die by the sword. And let me remind Singapore Power, your job is to provide public goods efficiently, not to make money.And I want Singapore Power to know this. Never ever squeeze me, who is your public goods buyer, if you have failed your stint as an investment banker. If I ever find out that is the case, boy, that would really make me angry.

no choice. lots of facts in order to see the picture. sorry...
Eh...i see a lot of facts but....i really can't see the picture.
I can see a lot of assumptions drawn from the facts yes, but like what soul_rage has said, i'm not really educated enough to see the numbers in the same light as the poster.
I wrote it.... my "mosaic theory" is SP needs to charge high to make profit to cover for loss of goodwill on its balance sheet. The goodwill arises from Alinta acquisition which it later fails to sell to listed SP Ausnet... just my "anyhow" theory...
Originally posted by Stevenson101:Eh...i see a lot of facts but....i really can't see the picture.
I can see a lot of assumptions drawn from the facts yes, but like what soul_rage has said, i'm not really educated enough to see the numbers in the same light as the poster.
Let me try to elaborate a bit more on what artboon is discussing. (Correct me if I am wrong, artboon).
This requires a bit of accounting knowledge.
Basically goodwill is accumulated when you buy a company higher than the fair market value of the company to be purchased.
A simple example:
If you buy a company at $500million, but the fair market value is determined to be $300million, then you accumulate a goodwill of $200million.
Most companies are only willing to be bought if its shareholders feel that the offer made by the purchasing company is above a certain value of what they feel their company is worth. It is almost certain that you must pay a premium to buy a company with good future prospects, much as how a soccer player's value is inflated. You could possibly pay too much for a company, much as you buy a property at its highest price only to have it come crashing down.
Goodwill becomes an expense when it is reduced sometime into the future. How it is reduced is dependent on the accounting standards used. In short, you could be making $$$ in your business, but if you carry too much goodwill and it is to be reduced based on a certain formula, the expense incurred from the amortization of the goodwill may be higher than what you make, and this ends up as a loss for the company, which affects shareholders' confidence.
Thus, the company, if it knows that the amortization of goodwill in this quarter may potentially cause it to go into a loss, may look into ways to prop up its income statement.
Tks for reading, soul_rage. I am trying to find holes to my own theory.... :)
Actually, most of the time it is the management (whose bonus is tied to profit of the company) that wants to make number looks good.
but if you carry too much goodwill and it is to be reduced based on a certain formula, the expense incurred from the amortization of the goodwill may be higher than what you make, and this ends up as a loss for the company, which affects shareholders' confidence.
In economics, a monopoly exists when a specific individual or enterprise has sufficient control over a particular product or service to determine significantly the terms on which other individuals shall have access to it. Monopolies are thus characterized by a lack of economic competition for the good or service that they provide and a lack of viable subtitute
Sounds like SP?
Monopolies are the most likely to use prices as a direct method to control their profits because the consumers have no where else to go. In short, they lack the incentive to think of cost-effective measures. Think of Singtel, which makes ridiculous amts of profits over the citizens coz in the past, we had no one else to go to.
So bring this back to the govt's argument. If the PAP has monopolized the govt, and some of you said about setting reasonable power bills, what the incentive for the govt to think for the people if they are pro-business? A monopoly setting a 'reasonable' price based on their own calculations is highly unlikely to be the 'reasonable' price the consumers are looking for.
Originally posted by ArtBoon:Actually, most of the time it is the management (whose bonus is tied to profit of the company) that wants to make number looks good.
Hi artboon, no, thanks very much for bringing this up. A person who takes the effort to put in his thoughts in detail deserves the right for the rest of the forum members to read it
In terms of goodwill, I would like to add, it's not only about the management that wants to make numbers look good.
If a company is consistently making reduced profits or making losses because of the reduction of goodwill, it only demonstrates one thing to the shareholders.
That this company is making acquisitions at prices that are too inflated, such that the revenue generating streams that it acquire are not making enough to cover the premiums that it had paid.
I am not making any judgement here whether SP is pricing its product reasonably or otherwise.
My theory is, if SP is organised to max profit, and faced with loss in goodwill from a bungled "arbitrage opportunity", it will try its best to profit using its monopolistic position to cover up.
A monopoly setting a 'reasonable' price based on their own calculations is highly unlikely to be the 'reasonable' price the consumers are looking for.
Agree.
If a company pays a goodwill over its acquisition, but cannot generate profit subsequently to offset the goodwill, obviously something is wrong.
So my theory is SP is now trying to minimise the damage. My theory is, SP did not want Alinta in the first place. It is just trying to buy Alinta and sell it straight to its "investment vehicle", SP Ausnet. But market stopped the deal. So SP has no choice but to increase price (to generate profit) substantially to cover the goodwill impairment coming up.
If a company is consistently making reduced profits or making losses because of the reduction of goodwill, it only demonstrates one thing to the shareholders.
That this company is making acquisitions at prices that are too inflated, such that the revenue generating streams that it acquire are not making enough to cover the premiums that it had paid.
Originally posted by soul_rage:In economics, a monopoly exists when a specific individual or enterprise has sufficient control over a particular product or service to determine significantly the terms on which other individuals shall have access to it. Monopolies are thus characterized by a lack of economic competition for the good or service that they provide and a lack of viable subtitute
Sounds like SP?
Monopolies are the most likely to use prices as a direct method to control their profits because the consumers have no where else to go. In short, they lack the incentive to think of cost-effective measures. Think of Singtel, which makes ridiculous amts of profits over the citizens coz in the past, we had no one else to go to.
So bring this back to the govt's argument. If the PAP has monopolized the govt, and some of you said about setting reasonable power bills, what the incentive for the govt to think for the people if they are pro-business? A monopoly setting a 'reasonable' price based on their own calculations is highly unlikely to be the 'reasonable' price the consumers are looking for.
Add on
Theory says monopoly creates inefficiency etc.
Does not seem to be applying to SP which is making profit...