Israel hits Palestine again while West Cheers Them On
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Originally posted by Stevenson101: Would i be correct to say that you feel there is no need to understand why they did it?
Understanding and sympathizing are 2 different issues. Understanding extremism doesn't mean agreeing that their actions are justified. Sympathizing with them on the other hand, is to think that the pain they go through justifies their actions.
As I said, condemning the current actions of Israel is one thing. If you are an Israeli leader, what would you decide to do in relation to Hamas?
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Look, you have already publicised your stupidity by rebutting, go do your own research first instead of attempting to redeem yourself by continuing asserting irrelevent points.
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Originally posted by seyKai:
You are not a Terrorist if u have the back-up and power
You are a Terrorist when you retaliated if u have no back-up and power
No logic here.
Hamas is supported by Iran.
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The most practical choice i would chose is to exterminate every last one of them. Man, Women and Child. Eliminate every single potential threat, the child and mother is going to grow up hating you anyway, what's the point?
It's the most straightforward option, the world would just forget about it in a decade or two. The show of force would discourage the Arab countries from ever provoking Israel and it would take the least amount of time to accomplish, with the lowest material cost.
Best of all, I can time it after the election since it's so close when I no longer have to please the people. One half of the parliament would hail me as the hero of the hour, willing to do what is needed, the other will call me a monster but all you got to do is call that half cowards and traitors then your political position would be secured.
The more painful option B, the weaker option i would chose is to introduce scholarships for young bright Palestinian youths, both men and women. Bring them to the best universities in Israel, make sure they are given good accomodations and basically make sure they mingle with the other Israel students.
I would get student volunteers who could speak the language to ensure these Palestinian youths are as comfortable as possible and protect them from harassments.
I see the problem as social, rather than racial, religious.or even historical. There is severe poverty and unemployment issues among the Palestinians. As long as that exists Hamas will never run short of volunteers. Idle men are always aggressive.
Taking their brightest and educating them alongside with Israel's brightest would at least open their eyes to the lives of the enemies, hatred is easy when you do not mix on an everyday basis with the enemy. When their education is done and they go back, you basically create a more moderate leadership among the Palestinian people.
Fund construction projects and build infrastructure for them, paying attention to employ Palestinian workers, if they have the engineers and architect to handle the job pioritize the jobs to them. Ensure they have access to proper water/food/electricity/sanitation and medical support.
Cut down on the checkpoints to the Gaza strip, allowing the UN and volunteer groups to help. No more discrimination policies, allow foreign groups with Palestinian members to come and go as they please.
During this time, Hamas and foreign funded groups would do their best to sabotage the process. Ignore them, do what you can to help the wounded but do not retaliate. Continously use the foreign media to highlight the damage Hamas is doing, make sure to protray that Israel is the victim. Make sure that such stories are distributed among the Palestinians.
Members of the Israeli government would not like such arrangements, they would do their best to destroy the effort either through deliberate actions or simply not doing anything at all. For such individuals, use the Sedition Act and bring them up on false charges and throw away the keys. Deny them access to everything, including visitors and phonelines.
Idealistically , i would chose Option B. But it would never work in a Democracy simply because of the short term memories of the electorate. Tough retaliation would always be more popular than soft ones. The people want "strong" leaders, they want alpha males as leaders! Not weak sympathetic women !(No offense, of course to Golda Meir)
Imply that we sympathize and not understand the stituation is a phrase i find very annoying. It is used far too often to defeat arguments and options that we ourselves didn't even give much thought to.I see the others in this thread posting reasonable arguments but all put down easily by the use of "Arab propagandists, Arab sympathizers and Israel haters"
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Two pai kias fighting.
One got bloodied badly.
And you all start arguing on which pai kia is not wrong.
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Originally posted by Poh Ah Pak:
What Kind of Security Will This Barbarism Bring Israel?
Israel has killed and wounded almost four thousand men, women and children so far in its assault on Gaza; it has entombed whole families together in the ruins of their homes. As I write these words, news is breaking that Israeli bombs have killed at least 40 civilians huddling in a UN school which they mistakenly thought would be safer than the homes from which Israel’s relentless barrage—and its deliberately terrorizing “warning” leaflets and prerecorded phone calls—had already driven them. (I still have one of the leaflets the Israelis dropped on besieged Beirut in 1982 and the language is exactly the same—“flee, flee for your lives!”). Mosques, schools, houses, apartment buildings, have all been brought down on the heads of those inside.
All this death and destruction comes supposedly in retaliation for rocket attacks that had not inflicted a single fatality inside Israel in over a year. What happened to “an eye for an eye?”...
http://www.counterpunch.org/makdisi01072009.html
What is Israel's Objective?
There are two persistent myths about the aim of Israel’s onslaught on Gaza: the first that it is an entirely defensive move, a way to end the rocket fire of Hamas; and the second that it is designed to restore the army’s credibility after its failure to cow Hizbollah in 2006.
No doubt the Israeli army has been itching to repair its battered image, and for sure the rocket attacks from Gaza create domestic pressures that are only too clear to an Israeli government about to face an election.
But it is a gross misunderstanding of what is unfolding in Gaza to believe Israel’s motives are capricious. The politicians and generals have been preparing for this attack for many months, possibly years -- a fact alone that suggests they have bigger objectives than commonly assumed.
Israel seized this particular moment -- with western politicians dozing through the holidays and a changeover of administrations in Washington -- because it ensured the longest period to implement its plan without diplomatic interference...please read more detail news there were secondary explosion from the UN school compound.
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Originally posted by freedomclub:
How? When Israel doesnt even let the most basic goods like food, fuel and medicine enter Gaza.
That is not entirely true. 30% relief truck after the withdrawed. But there was no succession of reducing violent from the Hamas side. They continue to refuse to accept the 2 states. And continue random rocket launch.For any 2 warring parties that have fought for so long the ball was in Hamas hand to reduce violent and shoulder the responsibilties as a Govt. not as a militant entities.
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Several misconceptions pertaining this conflict exists due to our staple consumption of American reporting primarily from the Israeli perspective. Let us give some consideration and thought to alternative sources for subscribing to a single source of perspective on an issue tends to espouse narrow mindedness in our views and consequently, discussions.
1. Hamas initiated this conflict by firing rockets due to Israel's blockade of Gazas borders.
Skirmishes occured even during the relativly calm period of truce between both parties. Hamas did consider an extention of the truce but turned its back when 3 of its personnel were killed by the IDF which accused them of planting explosives.
2. Israel's killings of innocent civilians in Gaza is not intented but by accident as well as Hamas is deliberately exploiting its civilians as human shields.
Several reports coming within Gaza, instead of those reported by Israeli-aligned media operating from Israeli cities, affirm that Israel attacks Palestinian civilians on intent. The most publicised and blatant is the bombing of U.N school which has been accused by Zionist Israel of sheltering Hamas fighters. This accusation has been vehemently refuted by John Ging, the head of the U.N relief agency. Whist the Israeli have contradictorily reported receiving motar fire "from within" the school. However, recent statement released from the Israeli altered its statement of receiving motar fire "from" the school. U.N has challenged Israel to produce proof of its accusation. Not a single school but three U.N schools. Israeli defence of its innocence in this matter is objectively questionable.
3. Hamas associated with terrorism per se.
Hamas is listed as a terrorist organization by the U.S and E.U and Japan. However, several nations maintain contact with Hamas, notably Norway and only its armed wing is listed as terrorist organization by Australia and E.U.
We have to analyze the sequence of events leading to the current conflict as every middle-eastern conflict is a consequence of chain reactions.
Israel's founding roots was etched in similar realms of terrorism. Irgun, a Jewish terrorist group killed 91 people, most British Officials when they planted a bomb in King David Hotel. The acts of terrorism of the Jews formed the founding roots of its state. The Deir Yassin massacre and the assasination of Lord Moyle, one of U.N peace envoy. The leaders of these Jewish terrorist groups went to become Israel's prime and foreign ministers. Hamas may be taking a leaf from the Zionist book.
4. Israel does not impede the flow of humanitarian aid into Gaza.
Israel has turned down repeatedly appeals from the world community to allow basic neccesities into impoverished Gaza and impeded the flow of necessity aids into Gaza. The boat delivering humanitarian supplies, the Dignity was not allowed to reach Gaza and peace activists travelling with the Dignity affirmed that their boat was rammed several times by the Israeli Navy although it was still in international waters.
Israeli warmongers are responsible for numerous war crimes and this most recent adds on the their long list. Most notably, Ariel Sharon is wanted by the Hague Tribunal for his malice of the Sabra and Shatilla carnage of Lebanon. He avoids from travelling to Belgium for fear of being arrested.
I hope that Israeli citizens be pragmatic and sensible to elect leftists and doves in their coming elections who are in favour of peace and stability.
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Originally posted by Jarhum:
Several misconceptions pertaining this conflict exists due to our staple consumption of American reporting primarily from the Israeli perspective. Let us give some consideration and thought to alternative sources for subscribing to a single source of perspective on an issue tends to espouse narrow mindedness in our views and consequently, discussions.
1. Hamas initiated this conflict by firing rockets due to Israel's blockade of Gazas borders.
Skirmishes occured even during the relativly calm period of truce between both parties. Hamas did consider an extention of the truce but turned its back when 3 of its personnel were killed by the IDF which accused them of planting explosives.
2. Israel's killings of innocent civilians in Gaza is not intented but by accident as well as Hamas is deliberately exploiting its civilians as human shields.
Several reports coming within Gaza, instead of those reported by Israeli-aligned media operating from Israeli cities, affirm that Israel attacks Palestinian civilians on intent. The most publicised and blatant is the bombing of U.N school which has been accused by Zionist Israel of sheltering Hamas fighters. This accusation has been vehemently refuted by John Ging, the head of the U.N relief agency. Whist the Israeli have contradictorily reported receiving motar fire "from within" the school. However, recent statement released from the Israeli altered its statement of receiving motar fire "from" the school. U.N has challenged Israel to produce proof of its accusation. Not a single school but three U.N schools. Israeli defence of its innocence in this matter is objectively questionable.
3. Hamas associated with terrorism per se.
Hamas is listed as a terrorist organization by the U.S and E.U and Japan. However, several nations maintain contact with Hamas, notably Norway and only its armed wing is listed as terrorist organization by Australia and E.U.
We have to analyze the sequence of events leading to the current conflict as every middle-eastern conflict is a consequence of chain reactions.
Israel's founding roots was etched in similar realms of terrorism. Irgun, a Jewish terrorist group killed 91 people, most British Officials when they planted a bomb in King David Hotel. The acts of terrorism of the Jews formed the founding roots of its state. The Deir Yassin massacre and the assasination of Lord Moyle, one of U.N peace envoy. The leaders of these Jewish terrorist groups went to become Israel's prime and foreign ministers. Hamas may be taking a leaf from the Zionist book.
4. Israel does not impede the flow of humanitarian aid into Gaza.
Israel has turned down repeatedly appeals from the world community to allow basic neccesities into impoverished Gaza and impeded the flow of necessity aids into Gaza. The boat delivering humanitarian supplies, the Dignity was not allowed to reach Gaza and peace activists travelling with the Dignity affirmed that their boat was rammed several times by the Israeli Navy although it was still in international waters.
Israeli warmongers are responsible for numerous war crimes and this most recent adds on the their long list. Most notably, Ariel Sharon is wanted by the Hague Tribunal for his malice of the Sabra and Shatilla carnage of Lebanon. He avoids from travelling to Belgium for fear of being arrested.
I hope that Israeli citizens be pragmatic and sensible to elect leftists and doves in their coming elections who are in favour of peace and stability.
Jarhum,
1. So are you saying it is justified for Hamas to kill innocent Israeli civilians with their rockets when 3 of their military personnel got killed ?And what were their personnel doing in Israel in the first place ????
2. According to Palestinian witnesses... militants are firing rockets near the school.. and Palestinians admits that they had been harrassed by Hamas. Is this not true ?
If Singapore dares to fire some rockets into JB, do you think Malaysia will not retaliate too ?
3. Ok.. So when will the chain reaction stop ?When will the Palestinian move beyond history ?
4. Gaza is not smack right in the middle of Israel. Their neighbour Egypt is predominantly Muslim. Why is the Egyptian border closed to Gaza ? Why Hamas don't fire rockets at Egypt ??? How come only punish Israel ?
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Originally posted by freedomclub:
Enough. Let me simplify this to some Yes/No questions.
Do I agree that Hamas should be condemned for launching rockets into Israel? Yes
Do I agree that Hamas should stop the violence against Israel? Yes
Do I agree that Israel has the right to self-defence when it is attacked? Yes
Are you attempting to whitewash your own position compared to the wild rhetoric of the Palestinians being treated in similar holocaust manner ?
I'm not siding with either side as you think I am. Because most of you are either condemning Israel or Hamas, it results in an unbalanced view. Let's see you answer some questions:
Do you agree that Israel has been enforcing a blockade on Gaza, preventing food, fuel and medical supplies for most of the time after Hamas won the 2006 elections? Yes/No
Do you agree that Israel has control over the Gazan borders? Yes/No
Do you agree that a country which has no control over its borders has no real sovereignty at all? Yes/No
For one who claim not to take sides, it is odd that you are putting all your efforts to argue and justify the actions of the Palestinians led by Hamas.
You must have learnt the art of deceit from Hamas.
Why does Israel treat the West Bank's Palestinians and Gaza's differently? Well, for one, the Fatah government is subservient to the Israelis. If Fatah ever dared to step out of line like Hamas, the West Bank will definitely get invaded.
Do the Palestinian in the West Bank fire rockets into Israel ?
Subservient or knowing one's own strength and weaknesses in order not to invite destruction on one's own community ?
Intelligence in not jeopardising the little progress by expanding what is available at hand - as seen by the contrast in living standards of the Palestinians on the West Bank compared to those in Gaza.
Are you being neutral, or are you not simply following Hamas' rhetoric in condemning and sabotaging President Abbas efforts to find a solution with Israel for a two nation state to co-exist ?
Why did Israel blockade Gaza after Hamas won in a democratic election? Not Yes/No, but surely you can handle structured questions.
Can you handle intelligence thought processes, or are you limited to structured thinking only ?
Are you not simply denying the obvious ?
Are you not aware of Hamas declared agenda towards Israel ?
Would you allow Hamas to exist as a neighbor when it will evict a legitimately elected government from ruling the Gaza Strip and usurp political power for itself ?
Your declared neutrality at the beginning of your reply is obviously missing now by your obvious display of mindless dishonesty.
"[Jimmy] Carter said that election was "orderly and fair" and Hamas triumphed, in part, because it was "shrewd in selecting candidates," whereas a divided, corrupt Fatah ran multiple candidates for single seats.
Far from encouraging Hamas's move into parliamentary politics, Carter said the US and Israel, with European Union acquiescence, has sought to subvert the outcome by shunning Hamas and helping Abbas to keep the reins of political and military power.
"That action was criminal," he said in a news conference after his speech."
- Carter: Stop favoring Fatah over Hamas- http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?cid=1181813074587&pagename=JPost%2FJPArticle%2FShowFull
Jimmy Carter is a Bible hugging Pacifist that ignore the political reality of events around the World.
Hamas may have candidates that won selected seats in the Palestinian parliament.
It does not have enough seats to form a government.
If it has the intelligence of selecting candidates - why has Hamas failed to have enough candidates that are acceptable to the Palestinian population that supported the PLA movement now led by President Abbas ?
Why did nearly half of the Palestinian population move out of Gaza on the day that Hamas unlawfully seized political power from the legitimately elected government of President Abbas ?
Why did Hamas forcibly prevent the remaining Palestinian population from leaving the Gaza Strip and created a stand-off for more then seven days until an Egyptian brokered deal allowed those Palestinians to move through Israeli territory into the West Bank ?
Carter is a fool and remain so till this day, with little support or respect as an individual even from his own fellow-American.
He is only good as a Peanut Farmer, and from the Singapore experience, you should know what is the worth of those who only know how to value "peanuts" over all else.
Then, considering that the nature of both parties' weapons are different, even if Hamas doesnt announce rocket launchings, like it will, Israeli casualties from their rocket attacks pale in comparison to the warned Israeli airstrikes. Does it really take a lot of thinking to get the idea that the impact from thousand-pound bombs is massively larger than homemade rockets? The death toll on both sides already demonstrates that fact.
The death toll is largely due to Hamas own efforts to sacrifice the lives of the Palestinians to achieve their own political agenda.
What they cannot hope to win militarily, they hope to win by political deceit through propaganda.
Did Israel use thousand pounds or were the bombs approximately half of what you are not propagandizing for Hamas ?
Even the concrete busting bombs do not have to weigh a thousand pounds - do you think the efficiency of the Israeli scientist is so poor that they will waste explosives in the manner that you are exagerating ?
The death toll is uneven due to Hamas wilfull acts of putting their own Palestinian lives in danger, but attacking Israel from heavily populated areas in the Gaza Strip, by locating their most highly prized ammunition storage facilities in the midst of densely populated residential and commercial areas, by abusing the neutrality of the hospitals and mosques to be used as ammunition storage facilities.
As I said, launching rockets into Israel is despicable. But, try to put yourself in their shoes. If a foreign power was oppressing you and your people, would you not resist? Saying that they purposely launched rockets from civilian-populated areas (where are there no civilians in Gaza?) is like saying that the Viet Cong in South Vietnam purposely used their own people as a shield without any scruples. Its not like they are foreign fighters. What would you call ordinary Gazans rising up against a foreign power that is invading their country? Let's say, a Gazan teacher has had enough with tolerating Israel's inhumane treatment of Gazans and decides to aid Hamas, his democratically elected government. Israeli intelligence spots him and bombs his school. Was it his intention to get the school bombed in order to get sympathy for Hamas? I dont think so. Resisting against the Israeli occupiers was his priority. Can you understand this?
If launching rockets into Israel is despicable, is there any need to justify the acts of launching these rockets for whatever the reasons ?
Make up your mind before you waste your energy to be seen as a hypocrite.
Since you already admit that Hamas nor Iran could ever destroy Israel, then why all the using "Destroy Israel" rhetoric from the Iranians or Palestinians as justification for the bombing?
Was mere "verbal rhetoric" the reason for Israel to bomb Hamas, or was it the continued firing of rockets and motar shells into Israeli towns and terrorising Israeli civilians the cause of the retaliatory bombings ?
Surely you are not so low in the points left to argue your way out of a poorly disguised efforts to protect Hamas ?
If you want to side with Hamas, then do you claim that Israel's hands are clean? Yes/No
Have I indicated any desire to "want to side with Hamas" ?
If you have dirtied your hands while supporting Hamas, why do you attempt to dirty mine by suggesting that I have any desire to follow your foolishness ?
Do you agree that more people have died from Israel's attacks than from Hamas' attacks? Yes/No
More people have died from Israel's attacks ?
Or should it have been more Palestinians have died - due to the stupidity of Hamas attacks on Israeli civilian targets ?
Are the Palestinian deaths due to Israeli attacks or due to the stupid and suicidal acts of Hamas by attacking Israel with rockets and motar shells - when Hamas have no way of protecting Palestinian lives from any Israeli counter-attack ?
Do you agree that Israel was the first one to break the ceasefire on Nov 4? Yes/No
Do you even know how the ceasefire was broken on 4 November 2008 - before attempting to blindly protect Hamas and justify their supposedly retaliatory acts of terror against Israel ?
If Hamas claim that they are the legitimate authority in the Gaza, why did they not control the unauthorised firing of rockets into Israeli civilian areas during the days before 4 November 2008 ?
Why did Hamas not put any efforts to control such unauthorised attacks against Israel but had even threatened Israel that Hamas will participate in launching rockets into Israel if the ceasefire is not renewed after 4 November ?
If you believe in your own statement that Israel had a right to defend itself - why act like a blind hypocrite now ?
This has already been brought up many times and people'll say that Hamas broke it first by an ( implied passively aggressive) act of contructing a tunnel which would have been used to attack and kidnap Israeli troops and citizens. That's what was put out by the MSM. Think about it, for a country which has been blockaded and deprived of food, fuel and medical supplies, would they have tried to break the blockade by getting supplies in through a tunnel? Anyway, CNN has already confirmed that Israel was the one to break the ceasefire.
Is CNN the "Global Watch Dog" - or are you so desparate to protect Hamas that you will depend on any slim and unsubstantiated loose talk for your supposed facts ?
Why is Hamas claiming that the Palestinians are starving, when they have the ability to smuggle rockets into the Gaza strip that allowed them to fire a progressively increase quantity of rockets with longer ranges than that previously fired ?
Why claim that the hospitals are lacking in medicine when there do not seem to be a drop in the quantity or quality of rockets fired into Israel ?
Is it not a surprise for Israel to attack these tunnels that are dug under the Palestinian homes, with main entrances and storage facilities hidden inside innocent looking Palestinian homes ?
I cant emphasis this enough, but it doesnt seem to be expressed well, probably because of much unconscious bias- it is wrong for both parties to act in this way. But, overlooking the fact that Israel has caused more casualties than Hamas would mean acknowledging that Palestinian lives are worth less than Israeli ones. Instead of just condemning Hamas as "terrorist", which by the way, is just a word to describe someone who uses a particular technique of 'persuasion', why not look at the way Israel treats the Palestinians.
Your efforts at staying neutral would be better served with some honesty in declaring your outright support for Hamas, which is already clearly seen by your definitive efforts in defending Hamas position.
Why do you even bother to pretend to be neutral ?
It does not make you any cleaner after you have sullied your image with total dishonesty and clear stupidity with the thin skin pretense at being neutral.
Israel has treated Palestinians on the West Bank and the Gaza Strip in equal ways that the Arabs only know and appreciate - "an eye for an eye".
If you cannot understand nor accept this Middle-east principle that is burrowed deep into the fundamental religious psychic as well - you might as well stop pretending to know anything about the politics in the Middle-east.
Finally, I do not say that Singapore and Malaysia are equally matched.
Do you agree that Singapore and Malaysia both, have air forces, navies and land armies that are equipped to modern standards? Yes/No
Do you know what you want to say that you wish you will want to say ?
Firstly, you must be truly naive if you believe that being equipped with modern weapons alone will make your armed forces modern.
Secondly, how much do you know about the level of integration of the various systems and weapon platforms owned by the various arms of the respective military forces in each the country that you wish to compare ?
Thirdly, do you have the ability to understand the level of sophistication in the types of technology owned and operated by the types of personnel that are available in the respective military forces of each country ?
Do you agree that Israel is the Middle-East's superpower? Yes/No
Do you agree that Hamas in Gaza has no air force or navy, and has only guerilla land forces? Yes/No
Have you forgotten your efforts with the Vietcong analogy ?
Have you now decided to abandon the success of the Vietcong against the almighty war machine of the USA ?
Do you think that Israel will allow the same to be repeated by a rag-tag army - no matter the size or the level of sophistication ?
A threat remains a threat, and is assessed for its threat level in the rhetoric, evaluating such rhetoric to the resources available to move rhetoric into action, and also considering the determination of the messenger or messengers of such rhetoric to carryout their verbal abuses to the ultimate end.
Are you expecting Israel to lie low, do nothing militarily or politically - and allow Hamas to fester into a formidable force ?
I didnt know that there were oil and natural gas in Gaza till the recent invasion put the spotlight on the Palestinians. I dont know whether the Israelis knew or didnt know about this either. Do you know? The article below states that it was discovered in 2000.
Do you know that Gaza does not have oil and natural gas? Yes/No
Similarly, do you know that Gaza has oil and natural gas? Yes/No
Dont you think rejecting new information despite not having any evidence to the contrary demonstrates a narrow mind?
It is precisely because the Gazans have a natural resource to fuel their development that the Israeli attack is timed as such. Of course, the Israelis do not want to allow that resource to benefit the Palestinian people. If you're oppressing a people, would it be in your interest for them to be lifted out of poverty? Would it be in your interest for them to achieve the means to sustain their own economy?
Narrow mind ?
How wide do you want to open your mind by foolishly absorbing all materials in some totally undiscerning ways that allow your mental faculties to be awed by propaganda, influenced by emotional coloring, and cleverly manipulated by others to achieve their own political agenda ?
If there is oil and gas in the Gaza - why are the Oil Companies not rushing in to sign up contractural papers with the Hamas leadership ?
If there is so much oil and gas in the Gaza, why will Hamas risk it all by firing rockets into Israel and provoking Israeli airforce to bomb the oil and gas fields ?
If the Gaza Strip is so densely populated and tight in living space for the Palestinians - where do you expect the Palestinians to move - so as to make way for the European and American Oil Companies?
Where are the Oil Companies ?
Why are they not rushing into the Gaza ?
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Originally posted by Arapahoe:
That is not entirely true. 30% relief truck after the withdrawed. But there was no succession of reducing violent from the Hamas side. They continue to refuse to accept the 2 states. And continue random rocket launch.For any 2 warring parties that have fought for so long the ball was in Hamas hand to reduce violent and shoulder the responsibilties as a Govt. not as a militant entities.
Considering that the Israeli has just killed a couple hundred of Palestinians, i don't think even Hamas would have the ability to get the grieving husbands and sons to not retaliate even if they wanted to.Why is it that we insist on looking on Hamas as a single group mind instead of a collection of individuals?
We say that it is Hamas that's firing the rockets because it is the media that says so. But are they actually interviewing the people firing the rockets or are they making speculations ?
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Originally posted by Stevenson101:
Considering that the Israeli has just killed a couple hundred of Palestinians, i don't think even Hamas would have the ability to get the grieving husbands and sons to not retaliate even if they wanted to.Why is it that we insist on looking on Hamas as a single group mind instead of a collection of individuals?
We say that it is Hamas that's firing the rockets because it is the media that says so. But are they actually interviewing the people firing the rockets or are they making speculations ?
Yeah right. There were no rockets fired into Israel. Hamas are made up of kindergarten teachers and would not hurt a fly. Those statements they made as well as their constitution were created by the media. Even Al Jazreel is Western contaminated. And arab propagandists do not exists.Sheesh! Is is so difficult for a muslim to admit shame? Is pride that important, more important than life and lives itself? I, a non-muslim, would gladly admit shame on your behalf if you don't dare admit it.
Everyone of us is flawed anyway. Only be admitting to our mistakes, correcting it, can we progress and evolve. To blame others is only to retard and devolve into lesser beings than humans, and would only cause harm to others around us.
I have the deepest respect for men such as the good prophet Mohammed for his efforts to elevate an ethnic group and alleviate their sufferings, as well as other men and women in the course of our human history.
But what hamas had done makes a mockery of the efforts of the good prophet! Killing of innocents is an abomination. Who gives the right for Hamas or any muslim to declare religious war?
The caliphate is the only form of governance that has full approval in traditional Islamic theology,
The Caliphate ended in 1924. There were no more successors, in the bloodline sense, to the prophet even long before Umar, the successor to Abu Bakr who took over from the prophet.
So who is the Caliph today, the 'Commander of All Believers?" - Osama Bin Laden? Did religious leaders accept him? Is this killer and mass murderer of innocents, the commander of all believers you would follow?
This animal is no where in the class of the good prophet, who faced his enemies while doing battle. Osama and his gang of leaders are more like the tribal arab cowards the good prophet conquered in the 6th Century.
These cowards are like little girls hiding behind their mom skirts, and enjoying luxury in the mountains while fools fight and die on their behalf, as well as believers whom are placed in the line of fire.
This is the animal you wish to follow?
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Jojobeach,
I would like to pose you a question: Is your reply an intended rebut or just a docile assumption that I advocate and espouse terrorism?
I'll begin by asserting, which I have done numerous time provided you read my previous writings that I never condone attacks on civilians, whether they may be Palestinian, Israeli, Myamarese or anoone for that matter. But if you have contemplated the false assumption that I advocate Hamas attacks on innocent Israelis, let me reiterate that I do not.
May I ask you whether my highlighting of Israeli terrorism past and presents a certain perception which tantamounts to approval of Hamas attacking innocent Israeli civilians?
There were certain witnesses, a couple to be exact, who witnessed Hamas fighters firing from areas nearby the school. However, others' account contradict this report. The U.N has neither confirmed nor falsify this allegations.
Many more Palestinians report harrassment by the Zionist entity.
The fact is anyone will retaliate when being attacked so your point is an irrelevent one.
The Arab peace Initiative that Israel return to its pre-1967 boundaries in return for normalization of relations with all 57 Muslim countries has been unanimously supported by all Muslim nations as well as Hamas and Hizbullah. This may just stop the chain reaction. However, the chain reaction will stop in the event that the Israeli elites discard their Zionist mentality espousing God given rights and claims and such.
Firstly, Egypt patrol guards close the border without attacking Gazas on the Palestinian side. Moreover, the Rafah crossing blockade is enacted by a new agreement between the Israelis and Egyptians. Meaning that in the event of Egypt opening the borders would tantamount to a breach of the 1979 Israel-Egypt Peace Treaty. Gazans know that the Eyptian elites will be punished by their own electorate and they have no means to fight a war on two fronts.
I appreciate if you would like to discuss this conflict with me, do it in an amicable manner instead of juxtaposing your discussions with emotional arguments. We are all civilized people.
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Originally posted by Jarhum:
Several misconceptions pertaining this conflict exists due to our staple consumption of American reporting primarily from the Israeli perspective. Let us give some consideration and thought to alternative sources for subscribing to a single source of perspective on an issue tends to espouse narrow mindedness in our views and consequently, discussions.
1. Hamas initiated this conflict by firing rockets due to Israel's blockade of Gazas borders.
Skirmishes occured even during the relativly calm period of truce between both parties. Hamas did consider an extention of the truce but turned its back when 3 of its personnel were killed by the IDF which accused them of planting explosives.
2. Israel's killings of innocent civilians in Gaza is not intented but by accident as well as Hamas is deliberately exploiting its civilians as human shields.
Several reports coming within Gaza, instead of those reported by Israeli-aligned media operating from Israeli cities, affirm that Israel attacks Palestinian civilians on intent. The most publicised and blatant is the bombing of U.N school which has been accused by Zionist Israel of sheltering Hamas fighters. This accusation has been vehemently refuted by John Ging, the head of the U.N relief agency. Whist the Israeli have contradictorily reported receiving motar fire "from within" the school. However, recent statement released from the Israeli altered its statement of receiving motar fire "from" the school. U.N has challenged Israel to produce proof of its accusation. Not a single school but three U.N schools. Israeli defence of its innocence in this matter is objectively questionable.
3. Hamas associated with terrorism per se.
Hamas is listed as a terrorist organization by the U.S and E.U and Japan. However, several nations maintain contact with Hamas, notably Norway and only its armed wing is listed as terrorist organization by Australia and E.U.
We have to analyze the sequence of events leading to the current conflict as every middle-eastern conflict is a consequence of chain reactions.
Israel's founding roots was etched in similar realms of terrorism. Irgun, a Jewish terrorist group killed 91 people, most British Officials when they planted a bomb in King David Hotel. The acts of terrorism of the Jews formed the founding roots of its state. The Deir Yassin massacre and the assasination of Lord Moyle, one of U.N peace envoy. The leaders of these Jewish terrorist groups went to become Israel's prime and foreign ministers. Hamas may be taking a leaf from the Zionist book.
4. Israel does not impede the flow of humanitarian aid into Gaza.
Israel has turned down repeatedly appeals from the world community to allow basic neccesities into impoverished Gaza and impeded the flow of necessity aids into Gaza. The boat delivering humanitarian supplies, the Dignity was not allowed to reach Gaza and peace activists travelling with the Dignity affirmed that their boat was rammed several times by the Israeli Navy although it was still in international waters.
Israeli warmongers are responsible for numerous war crimes and this most recent adds on the their long list. Most notably, Ariel Sharon is wanted by the Hague Tribunal for his malice of the Sabra and Shatilla carnage of Lebanon. He avoids from travelling to Belgium for fear of being arrested.
I hope that Israeli citizens be pragmatic and sensible to elect leftists and doves in their coming elections who are in favour of peace and stability.
I think most of the points except the last one is really debateable depending on the kind of sources you're looking at.
1. The Israeli's claim that they were under fire form Hamas rockets which constitutes breaking of the truce. While its true that there were skirmishes throughout the "calm" periods, but shooting rockets is a pretty high-profile and overt action that requires Israeli government to act on. Skirmishes between Hamas fighters and IDF troops may be quite a norm, but that's not as hard to suppress or account to the Israeli public when compared to Rocket and Mortar attacks.
2. I've been following the images of Israeli strikes on the so called civilian infrastructure. I've seen their targeting pod images and Bomb Damage Assessments. Judging from the images displayed, there were significant amount of secondary explosions indicating high-explosives to be present in those facilities. And I'm not taking about gas tanks kind, but stuff you see in missiles, bombs and materials used to construct them. Civilian infrastructure were indeed used to manufacture if not store such weapons, and the Israelis have to be credited for their precise intelligence in order to strike such facilities.
However, as you can imagine, by storing and staging attacks from civilian facilities, can you truly blame the Israelis for accidentally striking those that were not used by Hamas? If anything, Hamas has to be blamed for utilizing civilian infrastructure in the first place.
Its kinda like a half-empty vs half-full argument you have there. Hamas' military wing comes under Hamas political leadership. Unless the Hamas leadership severs its ties with its military wing, claiming no responsibility for all the actions its military wing conducts, perhaps the argument that Hamas is not terrorist organization may stand flimsily. However, Hamas leadership continues to direct the operations of its military wing in providing targeting information for its rocket and mortar attacks on Israel. Sorry to say, but the ordinary Hamas fighter popping of rockets and mortar would probably not have the intelligence level to figure out where to shoot on their own.
4. I fully agree with you that Israel needs to do more to allow humanitarian aid to the people in Gaza. It is already sad that civilians, women and children are being caught in the crossfire and that more should be done to allow medical, food and water supplies to reach them.
However, the ball is not entirely in Israel's court. Hamas can unilaterally surrender, turning over all personnel and arms over to the IDF, and request for international peacekeepers to enter Gaza. That would instaneously end the situation in Gaza. Yet, against an overwhelming opponent, they are not doing so.
Israel indeed was a state that had its roots in terrorism with all its less than glorious history. However, that is a judgement best reserved for historical debates rather than the discussion on the present situation. Israel today is a sovereign and democratic nation. It is fully within the sovereignty of any nation to defend itself against attacks on its cities and citizens. Any acting government has the obligation to provide defense to its citizens. As a Political Scientist, I think you should have an even clearer understanding.
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Originally posted by Shotgun:
I think most of the points except the last one is really debateable depending on the kind of sources you're looking at.
1. The Israeli's claim that they were under fire form Hamas rockets which constitutes breaking of the truce. While its true that there were skirmishes throughout the "calm" periods, but shooting rockets is a pretty high-profile and overt action that requires Israeli government to act on. Skirmishes between Hamas fighters and IDF troops may be quite a norm, but that's not as hard to suppress or account to the Israeli public when compared to Rocket and Mortar attacks.
2. I've been following the images of Israeli strikes on the so called civilian infrastructure. I've seen their targeting pod images and Bomb Damage Assessments. Judging from the images displayed, there were significant amount of secondary explosions indicating high-explosives to be present in those facilities. And I'm not taking about gas tanks kind, but stuff you see in missiles, bombs and materials used to construct them. Civilian infrastructure were indeed used to manufacture if not store such weapons, and the Israelis have to be credited for their precise intelligence in order to strike such facilities.
However, as you can imagine, by storing and staging attacks from civilian facilities, can you truly blame the Israelis for accidentally striking those that were not used by Hamas? If anything, Hamas has to be blamed for utilizing civilian infrastructure in the first place.
Its kinda like a half-empty vs half-full argument you have there. Hamas' military wing comes under Hamas political leadership. Unless the Hamas leadership severs its ties with its military wing, claiming no responsibility for all the actions its military wing conducts, perhaps the argument that Hamas is not terrorist organization may stand flimsily. However, Hamas leadership continues to direct the operations of its military wing in providing targeting information for its rocket and mortar attacks on Israel. Sorry to say, but the ordinary Hamas fighter popping of rockets and mortar would probably not have the intelligence level to figure out where to shoot on their own.
4. I fully agree with you that Israel needs to do more to allow humanitarian aid to the people in Gaza. It is already sad that civilians, women and children are being caught in the crossfire and that more should be done to allow medical, food and water supplies to reach them.
However, the ball is not entirely in Israel's court. Hamas can unilaterally surrender, turning over all personnel and arms over to the IDF, and request for international peacekeepers to enter Gaza. That would instaneously end the situation in Gaza. Yet, against an overwhelming opponent, they are not doing so.
Israel indeed was a state that had its roots in terrorism with all its less than glorious history. However, that is a judgement best reserved for historical debates rather than the discussion on the present situation. Israel today is a sovereign and democratic nation. It is fully within the sovereignty of any nation to defend itself against attacks on its cities and citizens. Any acting government has the obligation to provide defense to its citizens. As a Political Scientist, I think you should have an even clearer understanding.
What? Jarhum a political scientist? Distorting facts and history to justify Arab's war with Israel and Hamas' firing of rockets into Israel?
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Originally posted by jojobeach:
Jarhum,
1. So are you saying it is justified for Hamas to kill innocent Israeli civilians with their rockets when 3 of their military personnel got killed ?And what were their personnel doing in Israel in the first place ????
2. According to Palestinian witnesses... militants are firing rockets near the school.. and Palestinians admits that they had been harrassed by Hamas. Is this not true ?
If Singapore dares to fire some rockets into JB, do you think Malaysia will not retaliate too ?
3. Ok.. So when will the chain reaction stop ?When will the Palestinian move beyond history ?
4. Gaza is not smack right in the middle of Israel. Their neighbour Egypt is predominantly Muslim. Why is the Egyptian border closed to Gaza ? Why Hamas don't fire rockets at Egypt ??? How come only punish Israel ?
If you are frustrated with Jarhum, you can imagine how much the Israelis have to go trhough dealing with the Hamas.
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Personally for me, only 2 kinds of people will say Israel is harbouring some kind of evil intentions, or hidden propagandas, if you will. And they will say Hamas is the poor poor state being oppressed. 1 - Muslims who are so biased in their reasonings and hatred towards anything un-Islamic. 2 - People who are just being plain "sympathetic" (I admire sympathetic people, really). They see sufferings and without going through any thought-proccessing, condemns the so-called "oppressing" Israel. You guys will be surprised how many human beings who has almost no common sense there are out there. I'm quite surprised there are so many anti-Israel people in Singapore.
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Googoomuck,
I challenge you to justify your claim that I am 'twisting" facts and history. Period.
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Originally posted by Jarhum:
Googoomuck,
I challenge you to justify your claim that I am 'twisting" facts and history. Period.
People only have to read your posts and my posts in this thread to conclude.
I have to decline your challenge. A waste of precious time.
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Shotgun,
I appreciate your proportionately rational response.
The initiation lead to this conflict has been heard from either the side of Hamas or the side of the Israeli. Of course, we all have heard conflicting accounts from various other sources. However, the well-oiled Israeli PR machine has greatly influenced the masses that Hamas primarily fired rockets into Israel due to an 85% blockade of its borders. This present conflict is mearly an magnified reflection of the skirmishes occuring during the ceasefire. Thus it is not wise to debate who started this round of conflict because blames are being put onto Hamas, Israel and even the U.N as this is as futile as arguing who should initiate an end to the conflict and initiate the proceed towards the negotiating table. But we all agree it should. Sources leaning towards the Palestinians would verify that Israel initiate the conflict whilst sources biased towards Israel would justify the conflict was started by Hamas. An independent body could analyse and verily these conflicting claims, although I do not see any tangible benefit coming from this.
Similarly, I have been keeping tabs on Israeli targeting pods and bomb assessments. But note, the IDF do not release every assessment. Of course, you would have to be a trained military analyst in order to accurately assess those slides provided by the IDF. I do not refute the claim that Hamas do hide stockpiles in civilian infrastructure. Gaza is a poorly planned conglomerate of shabby towns and villages and it is one of the most densely populated cities in the world. However, not every civilian death in Gaza is due to the allegation that Hamas fighters are "hiding behind human shields." This is a journalistic figure of speech intended to deflect any nuances of the occurance of Israeli strikes killing innocent civilians. But it is hard to nonchalantly dismiss reports that civilian deaths in Gaza is due to intended Israeli targetting.
I think we all have to accept the fact that Hamas is the elected, legitimate government of the Palestinians. This created a massive dillema for the West, torn between its espousal and acceptance of democratically elected governments which it has labelled a terrorist organization as well. We have to take into consideration that the implication of the organization by the E.U and U.S is not shared by all. It is impossible to adopt the view taken by some or even the majority and superimpose it on the will and minds of the rest of the world.
I am not too sure of the efficacy of military directions and decisions obtained by the upper echelons of the Hamas organizational structure. Even if they did receive 'intelligence' by their superiors, I do not think it would make any difference in the destination of their homemade rockets. Well, Hamas rockets, FYI, are terribly inaccurate.
I totally agree that the ball is not unilaterally in Israel's court. However, the course of action taken by them reflects unilateralism. Let's not forget what are several causations to this war. The coming national elections, the intermission of the U.S administration and to repair its bruised pride from the debacle of its 2006 war with Hizbullah. Your assertion leads to the chicken and egg question. Who should put their weapons down first? Truthfully both would not. It is a matter of pride above all else.
It is difficult to engage in a coherent discussion on this matter with an absolute detachment from past events which heavily influence the current. Israel is a sovereign and democratic state. However, Israel has repeated, as in the past, in arrogant defiance, broken international laws and its actions have constantly defined the Geneva Convention as affirmed by Amnesty International and alleged by UNRWA which demands an official inquiry. Iraq under Saddam as well as Taliban were all legitimate entities of the international system until they were raped of their sovereignty. Let us not forget again that Hamas is a fellow combatant in this war which derives the same rationale as the Israelis.
As a political scientist, I am exposed to a wider range of sources and information. Thus, I am writing, in my own personal sphere, of the blatant inconsistencies vis a vis the mainstream ( more specifically, U.S influenced) media and providing a humble attempt at portraying the more accurate and balanced sequence and reasons of events. However, several here accuse my of being an Arab propagandist, a Hamas supporter and similar phrases.
I arrive to the deduction that championing the sanctity of human lives would label one as an Arab sympathiser since more Palestinian were killed.
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Originally posted by Atobe:
Are you attempting to whitewash your own position compared to the wild rhetoric of the Palestinians being treated in similar holocaust manner ?
For one who claim not to take sides, it is odd that you are putting all your efforts to argue and justify the actions of the Palestinians led by Hamas.
You must have learnt the art of deceit from Hamas.
Do the Palestinian in the West Bank fire rockets into Israel ?
Subservient or knowing one's own strength and weaknesses in order not to invite destruction on one's own community ?
Intelligence in not jeopardising the little progress by expanding what is available at hand - as seen by the contrast in living standards of the Palestinians on the West Bank compared to those in Gaza.
Are you being neutral, or are you not simply following Hamas' rhetoric in condemning and sabotaging President Abbas efforts to find a solution with Israel for a two nation state to co-exist ?
Can you handle intelligence thought processes, or are you limited to structured thinking only ?
Are you not simply denying the obvious ?
Are you not aware of Hamas declared agenda towards Israel ?
Would you allow Hamas to exist as a neighbor when it will evict a legitimately elected government from ruling the Gaza Strip and usurp political power for itself ?
Your declared neutrality at the beginning of your reply is obviously missing now by your obvious display of mindless dishonesty.
Jimmy Carter is a Bible hugging Pacifist that ignore the political reality of events around the World.
Hamas may have candidates that won selected seats in the Palestinian parliament.
It does not have enough seats to form a government.
If it has the intelligence of selecting candidates - why has Hamas failed to have enough candidates that are acceptable to the Palestinian population that supported the PLA movement now led by President Abbas ?
Why did nearly half of the Palestinian population move out of Gaza on the day that Hamas unlawfully seized political power from the legitimately elected government of President Abbas ?
Why did Hamas forcibly prevent the remaining Palestinian population from leaving the Gaza Strip and created a stand-off for more then seven days until an Egyptian brokered deal allowed those Palestinians to move through Israeli territory into the West Bank ?
Carter is a fool and remain so till this day, with little support or respect as an individual even from his own fellow-American.
He is only good as a Peanut Farmer, and from the Singapore experience, you should know what is the worth of those who only know how to value "peanuts" over all else.
The death toll is largely due to Hamas own efforts to sacrifice the lives of the Palestinians to achieve their own political agenda.
What they cannot hope to win militarily, they hope to win by political deceit through propaganda.
Did Israel use thousand pounds or were the bombs approximately half of what you are not propagandizing for Hamas ?
Even the concrete busting bombs do not have to weigh a thousand pounds - do you think the efficiency of the Israeli scientist is so poor that they will waste explosives in the manner that you are exagerating ?
The death toll is uneven due to Hamas wilfull acts of putting their own Palestinian lives in danger, but attacking Israel from heavily populated areas in the Gaza Strip, by locating their most highly prized ammunition storage facilities in the midst of densely populated residential and commercial areas, by abusing the neutrality of the hospitals and mosques to be used as ammunition storage facilities.
If launching rockets into Israel is despicable, is there any need to justify the acts of launching these rockets for whatever the reasons ?
Make up your mind before you waste your energy to be seen as a hypocrite.
Was mere "verbal rhetoric" the reason for Israel to bomb Hamas, or was it the continued firing of rockets and motar shells into Israeli towns and terrorising Israeli civilians the cause of the retaliatory bombings ?
Surely you are not so low in the points left to argue your way out of a poorly disguised efforts to protect Hamas ?
Have I indicated any desire to "want to side with Hamas" ?
If you have dirtied your hands while supporting Hamas, why do you attempt to dirty mine by suggesting that I have any desire to follow your foolishness ?
More people have died from Israel's attacks ?
Or should it have been more Palestinians have died - due to the stupidity of Hamas attacks on Israeli civilian targets ?
Are the Palestinian deaths due to Israeli attacks or due to the stupid and suicidal acts of Hamas by attacking Israel with rockets and motar shells - when Hamas have no way of protecting Palestinian lives from any Israeli counter-attack ?
Do you even know how the ceasefire was broken on 4 November 2008 - before attempting to blindly protect Hamas and justify their supposedly retaliatory acts of terror against Israel ?
If Hamas claim that they are the legitimate authority in the Gaza, why did they not control the unauthorised firing of rockets into Israeli civilian areas during the days before 4 November 2008 ?
Why did Hamas not put any efforts to control such unauthorised attacks against Israel but had even threatened Israel that Hamas will participate in launching rockets into Israel if the ceasefire is not renewed after 4 November ?
If you believe in your own statement that Israel had a right to defend itself - why act like a blind hypocrite now ?
Is CNN the "Global Watch Dog" - or are you so desparate to protect Hamas that you will depend on any slim and unsubstantiated loose talk for your supposed facts ?
Why is Hamas claiming that the Palestinians are starving, when they have the ability to smuggle rockets into the Gaza strip that allowed them to fire a progressively increase quantity of rockets with longer ranges than that previously fired ?
Why claim that the hospitals are lacking in medicine when there do not seem to be a drop in the quantity or quality of rockets fired into Israel ?
Is it not a surprise for Israel to attack these tunnels that are dug under the Palestinian homes, with main entrances and storage facilities hidden inside innocent looking Palestinian homes ?
Your efforts at staying neutral would be better served with some honesty in declaring your outright support for Hamas, which is already clearly seen by your definitive efforts in defending Hamas position.
Why do you even bother to pretend to be neutral ?
It does not make you any cleaner after you have sullied your image with total dishonesty and clear stupidity with the thin skin pretense at being neutral.
Israel has treated Palestinians on the West Bank and the Gaza Strip in equal ways that the Arabs only know and appreciate - "an eye for an eye".
If you cannot understand nor accept this Middle-east principle that is burrowed deep into the fundamental religious psychic as well - you might as well stop pretending to know anything about the politics in the Middle-east.
Do you know what you want to say that you wish you will want to say ?
Firstly, you must be truly naive if you believe that being equipped with modern weapons alone will make your armed forces modern.
Secondly, how much do you know about the level of integration of the various systems and weapon platforms owned by the various arms of the respective military forces in each the country that you wish to compare ?
Thirdly, do you have the ability to understand the level of sophistication in the types of technology owned and operated by the types of personnel that are available in the respective military forces of each country ?
Have you forgotten your efforts with the Vietcong analogy ?
Have you now decided to abandon the success of the Vietcong against the almighty war machine of the USA ?
Do you think that Israel will allow the same to be repeated by a rag-tag army - no matter the size or the level of sophistication ?
A threat remains a threat, and is assessed for its threat level in the rhetoric, evaluating such rhetoric to the resources available to move rhetoric into action, and also considering the determination of the messenger or messengers of such rhetoric to carryout their verbal abuses to the ultimate end.
Are you expecting Israel to lie low, do nothing militarily or politically - and allow Hamas to fester into a formidable force ?
Narrow mind ?
How wide do you want to open your mind by foolishly absorbing all materials in some totally undiscerning ways that allow your mental faculties to be awed by propaganda, influenced by emotional coloring, and cleverly manipulated by others to achieve their own political agenda ?
If there is oil and gas in the Gaza - why are the Oil Companies not rushing in to sign up contractural papers with the Hamas leadership ?
If there is so much oil and gas in the Gaza, why will Hamas risk it all by firing rockets into Israel and provoking Israeli airforce to bomb the oil and gas fields ?
If the Gaza Strip is so densely populated and tight in living space for the Palestinians - where do you expect the Palestinians to move - so as to make way for the European and American Oil Companies?
Where are the Oil Companies ?
Why are they not rushing into the Gaza ?
I know that Hamas was founded to destroy Israel. No one is denying that. Neither am I denying that Hamas' rockets have killed people. I can agree with everything you say, but cant you realise that Israel is killing more people than Hamas? The death toll already speaks for itself.
Do you see the mental twisting which you engage in when you state that the 500+ Palestinians that have died are killed not by Israel, but by Hamas? Hamas provoked Israel to retaliate, yet it is Israel that is doing the actual killing. Because you, and many others are just siding with one group of terrorists, and overlooking the actions of the other group of terrorists is something I take issue with. Its like taking sides when the US invades Iraq. The US has a rich history of sponsoring terrorism to destabilise nationalistic governments in favour of corrupt dictators. Saddam is a US-propped dictator who has oppressed the Kurds. In cases like this, its a waste of time to side with either one because both are anti-human scum.
By the way, I dont understand what you mean by "succumbing to propaganda" when propaganda just refers to an organised effort to promote a particular belief. Everything that we hear is propaganda. If you want to accuse me of lying or putting out misinformation, then say so.
I dont know why all the oil companies arent rushing to Gaza right now, when Israel is engaging in shock and awe. But would Israel ever let a Hamas-run government to control and benefit from the oil and natural gas? I dont think so. If you cant have it, no one can.
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GGmuck,
If I were you, I would feel shameful when people read my posts. You have directed malicious and unsubstantiated accusations towards me. I would give you the benefit of the doubt by assuming that you may well be a better speaker than writer. So accept my humble shallenge.
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Gackt13,
I am equally surprised and horrified at the numbers of people who are nonchalant towards the severe loss of lives and humanitarian crisis in favour of supporting some state's right to defend itself. It is simply ludicrous.
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To me, simply said. There is no such thing as a proportionate response to terrorism. The logic of an eye for an eye is flawed. If you are a father and an armed man comes and tries to kill your daughter. Do you call the police and say, "Please hurry! But send only ONE officer!" Obviously not. You'll ask them to send the whole force. Whether Hamas is a legitimate government, a terrorist organisation or a regime that has executed a coup on Fatah, depends on your own view. Mine is well clear.
Having said that, it is really terrible to have loss of civilian lives on both sides. Hopefully the ceasefire will come soon. War should be the last resort and avoided at all costs no matter what.
However, Hamas (as with the majority of these groups worldwide) are damn hypocritical. They can lob rockets at Israeli civilians, use their own and human shields and bombers while being the first to whine to the world when their own civilians are hit. War is ugly for civilians both sides and if they want to avoid, why spend the last two years firing rockets at random targets in the first place hoping it will land in populated areas? I wonder where they get their rockets from hmm.. ebay?
Now the question is: Which side started it? Did the chicken come before the egg? They've been fighting since biblical times so God bless the new us president as he tries to make peace.
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Originally posted by Jarhum:
Gackt13,
I am equally surprised and horrified at the numbers of people who are nonchalant towards the severe loss of lives and humanitarian crisis in favour of supporting some state's right to defend itself. It is simply ludicrous.
Shouldn't you also be equally surprised and horrified at HAMAS who are nonchalant towards severe loss of Gazans lives and their own humanitarian crisis while they continue with this senseless war ?Does Hamas truly cares about their own people ? If Palestinians themselves do not value their own lifes.. why do you think others should ?
Gaza needs a new government. HAMAS has to go. Period.