Israel hits Palestine again while West Cheers Them On
-
Originally posted by googoomuck:
You are bringing Judaism into the topic. You must have read Genesis.
No, you have raised the genealogy of the palestinians, I have merely brought the Israelis into the topic to balance the argument.
-
Originally posted by oxford mushroom:
No, you have raised the genealogy of the palestinians, I have merely brought the Israelis into the topic to balance the argument.
Genesis provides the answers to why Israel is important to Jews.
How do you balance the argument? The presence of Jews in Israel since biblical times is backed up by ancient Jewish artifacts.
The Arabs arrived in droves in the last 100 years for economic reasons.
-
skywood,
you are bringing superficial elements into this discussion to substantiate unjustified facts contrary to actual happenings of the war. I quote this:
From The Telegraph:
Two United Nations contractors were killed by an Israeli tank shell today during an official suspension of hostilities designed to allow relief operations in the besieged Gaza Strip.If I were to utilize your brand of argument, your perspective infers that it was the military elite who perpetuated the orders for the killings of U.N contractors.
Reports were did not alleged Hamas threw the first punch following the 3 hour truce, however reports that THE IDF resumed air strikes after the end of the ceasefire.
Thus your accusation that Hamas may have fired during the ceasefire is utterly false. This is a stark reflection of your prejudice. But do not stoop too low by fabricating facts which are proven otherwise.
"Will the militants stay away from mosque, schools and hospitals in their effort to attack the Isrealis? definitely not"
how do you know Hamas are based in schools, mosques and hospitals? Many of the Israeli accusations have not been substantiated. On the other hand, Israeli attacks on civilian infrastructure have been justified by independent sources that no Hamas fighters were present. Notably the U.N school.
" And the justified attack LOOK like atrocities to the reporters because the militants are the one who dies."
Your sentence is grossly incomprehensible. I do not see your intended point here.
I am appalled that a fellow Singapore justifies attacks on innocent civilians. In accordance to the Geneva Convention, no attacks on civilians are justified. You seem to be an ardent supporter of terrorism.
Not only Hamas combatants die by Israeli aggression as many, if not more, innocent children, women and civilians are killed as well.
"Military discipline. LEARN."
You are the pot calling the kettle black. You seem to severely lack knowledge and much skill at stringing coherent points across. However, your assertation that the Israeli soldiers obey orders via the chain of command NOT to attack is proven false. They did attack innocent civilians. Thus it can be deduced that either it was the military elites of the Israeli terrorist army who commanded the attack or there was a severe breakdown in the dissemination of orders, meaning that military discipline of the Israelis was severely lacking.
"Mentioning that peace groups advocate for peace is stupid."
My response: "My emphasis was on the fact that those peace organizations are Jewish and Israeli but they condemn the aggressions of their army."
You must be blind or rather, blinded by your overzealous support of the Israeli war crimes. Never did I mention peace groups advocate peace. That is stating the obvious. I wonder the level of common sense you possess. Currently, judging from your accounts, it appears to be pretty low.
-
I am appalled at the level of comprehension of history to serveral individuals here. I am further dismayed by their pathetic attempts to argue and insert tremendously distorted facts into their points.
"The Arabs arrived in droves in the last 100 years for economic reasons"
Googoomuck, the Arabs conqured Jerusalem in the year 637 by Caliph Umar al-Khattab. Your statement that the Arabs arrived in droves in the last 100 years is terribly distorted. (2009 - 637) = 1372 years.
Secondly, economic reasons? Hello? The land of Palestine was always contested by the three Abrahamic religions for religious significance. Economic and financial motivations were most probably the last things on their minds.
Thirdly, the Jews were the ones who arrived in droves in the last 100 years and it was for biblical reasons and to escape discrimination in Europe.
Get your facts right instead of blabbering nonsense which infuriates the intellectual minds of many in here.
-
Originally posted by Jarhum:
skywood,
you are bringing superficial elements into this discussion to substantiate unjustified facts contrary to actual happenings of the war. I quote this:
From The Telegraph:
Two United Nations contractors were killed by an Israeli tank shell today during an official suspension of hostilities designed to allow relief operations in the besieged Gaza Strip.If I were to utilize your brand of argument, your perspective infers that it was the military elite who perpetuated the orders for the killings of U.N contractors.
Reports were did not alleged Hamas threw the first punch following the 3 hour truce, however reports that THE IDF resumed air strikes after the end of the ceasefire.
Thus your accusation that Hamas may have fired during the ceasefire is utterly false. This is a stark reflection of your prejudice. But do not stoop too low by fabricating facts which are proven otherwise.
"Will the militants stay away from mosque, schools and hospitals in their effort to attack the Isrealis? definitely not"
how do you know Hamas are based in schools, mosques and hospitals? Many of the Israeli accusations have not been substantiated. On the other hand, Israeli attacks on civilian infrastructure have been justified by independent sources that no Hamas fighters were present. Notably the U.N school.
" And the justified attack LOOK like atrocities to the reporters because the militants are the one who dies."
Your sentence is grossly incomprehensible. I do not see your intended point here.
I am appalled that a fellow Singapore justifies attacks on innocent civilians. In accordance to the Geneva Convention, no attacks on civilians are justified. You seem to be an ardent supporter of terrorism.
Not only Hamas combatants die by Israeli aggression as many, if not more, innocent children, women and civilians are killed as well.
"Military discipline. LEARN."
You are the pot calling the kettle black. You seem to severely lack knowledge and much skill at stringing coherent points across. However, your assertation that the Israeli soldiers obey orders via the chain of command NOT to attack is proven false. They did attack innocent civilians. Thus it can be deduced that either it was the military elites of the Israeli terrorist army who commanded the attack or there was a severe breakdown in the dissemination of orders, meaning that military discipline of the Israelis was severely lacking.
"Mentioning that peace groups advocate for peace is stupid."
My response: "My emphasis was on the fact that those peace organizations are Jewish and Israeli but they condemn the aggressions of their army."
You must be blind or rather, blinded by your overzealous support of the Israeli war crimes. Never did I mention peace groups advocate peace. That is stating the obvious. I wonder the level of common sense you possess. Currently, judging from your accounts, it appears to be pretty low.
Jarhum,
Studying history is a noble cause. But with history we learn to avoid past mistakes. History is not meant to influence or justify future actions.
-
Originally posted by Jarhum:
I am appalled at the level of comprehension of history to serveral individuals here. I am further dismayed by their pathetic attempts to argue and insert tremendously distorted facts into their points.
"The Arabs arrived in droves in the last 100 years for economic reasons"
Googoomuck, the Arabs conqured Jerusalem in the year 637 by Caliph Umar al-Khattab. Your statement that the Arabs arrived in droves in the last 100 years is terribly distorted. (2009 - 637) = 1372 years.
Secondly, economic reasons? Hello? The land of Palestine was always contested by the three Abrahamic religions for religious significance. Economic and financial motivations were most probably the last things on their minds.
Thirdly, the Jews were the ones who arrived in droves in the last 100 years and it was for biblical reasons and to escape discrimination in Europe.
Get your facts right instead of blabbering nonsense which infuriates the intellectual minds of many in here.
Actually, many of the Crusading leaders were out to curry political favour with the Pope (and their populace), and also to get rich going east. The East has always been a hot bed of trade even before the Roman Empire. For Arab rulers, control of Jerusalem gave them extraordinary legitimacy in the eyes of their people. Remember that making yourself look weak invites coups etc. Saladin rose through a coup, for example, with an army at his back.
-
Quite frankly, the Palestinian problem can fester for all the Israelis really care. To them, the Palestinians are nothing but a pest, and the Arab leaders in general don't give a swat, except trying to make their populace happy, and ensuring Iran doesn't get too much of a foothold. Egypt didn't even want Gaza even though they were offered that strip of land after the last war.
-
Jojobch,
I agree with you. History is meant to give mankind lessons on avoiding and rectifying the mistakes of the past. However, this is one subject whose essence have been largely ignored by mankind.
Likewise, no logic will be able to justify or legitimize the killings of innocent civilians.
-
Originally posted by Fingolfin_Noldor:
Actually, many of the Crusading leaders were out to curry political favour with the Pope (and their populace), and also to get rich going east. The East has always been a hot bed of trade even before the Roman Empire. For Arab rulers, control of Jerusalem gave them extraordinary legitimacy in the eyes of their people. Remember that making yourself look weak invites coups etc. Saladin rose through a coup, for example, with an army at his back.
Jerusalem is and has always been the gem of legitimacy and idelogical prize of political elites. The motivation of economic gains propelled the eras of colonialism and imperialism of the East. However, this point weakly factor into the equation of the control of the holy land. Your assertion that Arab rulers gaining control of Jerusalem in association with weakness makes the ruling power susceptible to coup strikes an interesting note. The current Arab rulers may find in a dilemma due to their powerless nature to regain Jerusalem or even assert a resounding influence over the current situation and the constant insult of cowardice by their populace. -
Originally posted by Jarhum:
Jerusalem is and has always been the gem of legitimacy and idelogical prize of political elites. The motivation of economic gains propelled the eras of colonialism and imperialism of the East. However, this point weakly factor into the equation of the control of the holy land. Your assertion that Arab rulers gaining control of Jerusalem in association with weakness makes the ruling power susceptible to coup strikes an interesting note. The current Arab rulers may find in a dilemma due to their powerless nature to regain Jerusalem or even assert a resounding influence over the current situation and the constant insult of cowardice by their populace.That was pretty much the objective of the Arab rulers back in the 7 day war and the initial war with Israel at its founding. Israel further decided to spit in their face by annexing Jerusalem and then declaring it its capital. Unfortunately, what is done is done and fighting another brutal war with Israel is not an option. Arab armies are very poorly trained and most of their toys.. are simply toys.
-
Originally posted by Fingolfin_Noldor:
That was pretty much the objective of the Arab rulers back in the 7 day war and the initial war with Israel at its founding. Israel further decided to spit in their face by annexing Jerusalem and then declaring it its capital. Unfortunately, what is done is done and fighting another brutal war with Israel is not an option. Arab armies are very poorly trained and most of their toys.. are simply toys.
The Arab/Muslim society and nation is at its lowest point ever since the time of Prophet Muhmmad far distant from the times of the times of the Rashidun,Umayyad,Abbasid caliphates.However, there is little choice of response to Israel's continued oppression of the Palestinians. Israel refusal to engage Hamas as well their most trusted aide, the Americans parroting of their stand complicates the situation further. Even a ceaefire is always uneasy and temporary. The Zionist ideology of Greater Israel and the desired restoration of king solomon's temple on the exact coordinates of Al-Aqsa crosses swords with the Muslim sovereignty to Al-Aqsa, the third holiest shrine in Islam. Right-wing members of the knesset have even argued that Muslims already possess 2 holy shrines thus should give in the 3rd for the sake of the holiest shrine in Judaism. A probable amicable solution to this is to hand over the holy land to a 3rd party to ensure its sovereignty which has been proposed by the UN but entirely dismissed by Israel.
This war has little to do with the Palestinian or Hamas themselves. The elections are coming as well as the Israeli elite needs some divertion from the corruptions of the elite. Moreover, it needs to send a precautionary message to Barack Obama since the President-elect's closests aides have leaked his intention to establish low-level contacts with Hamas. This war was planned more than a year ago and apprved by the knesset before the deadline of the six-month truce. The Israeli justification of self-defence from Qassam's growingly appears to be a gross exaggeration as the war goes on. Moreover, with numerous sources alleging Israel of intentionally targeting civilian infrastructure. The continued oppression by Israeli terrorism of the Palestinians offers them a choice: Stay barely alive or Die tryin'.
The proposed Arab Initiative was agreed by all parties including Hamas, Hizbullah, centre-left Israelis only to be vehemently put down by the influential rightist of Israeli politics and proponents of the Zionist movement.
The annexation and declaration of the Jerusalem Law is deemed a violation of international law by the U.N. However, the act alone is ample to humiliate the Arab and Muslim world.
Barack Obama have promised the world a message of hope. Peace to the holy land shall be his test.
-
Originally posted by Jarhum:
jojobeach,
Finally, you have input the some form of neutrality into this discussion. Never once did I asset Hamas is NOT to be blamed for this carnage. My point was pretty simple, Israel is killing with civilians intently although their reports contradicts most independent credible sources reporting from the warzone. Thus, they have to share a bigger portion of the blame due to the killings.
Yes. Hamas did reject the UN administered truce.
Reason: Not interested as it was not consulted and the truce fails to meet its requirements.
However, your purposeful omission of the similar fact that Israel rejected the truth reeks of prejudice.
Reason: FM Livni stated that Israel will not allow an external body to dictate the actions of a sovereign nation.
Which raison d etre is more sensible?
Moreover, Israeli polls show that 90% of the Jewish majority is in favour of the war. Numerous deductions can be made from this sick reality.
Sick reality ?
The sick reality is that Hamas is determined to see to the destruction of Israel - knowing that it has the support of Iran.
The population of Israel is 7,112,359 (2008) - what can we make out of your speculative deduction that 90% are infected in your assumed sick reality ?
Yes. Hamas did reject the UN administered truce.
Reason: Not interested as it was not consulted and the truce fails to meet its requirements.
Which raison d etre is more sensible?
Do we need to speculate about your position ?
Was Hamas rejection simply due to the fact that it was not consulted, or was it due to the fact that the resolution passed by the UN Security Council had also required a halt to Hamas' weapon smuggling - even as it also demanded the borders to be open to allow humanitarian aid to get through to the Palestinians in Gaza ?
Israel's rejection was not only about an external body imposing their will on their sovereign right to protect themselves, but as Israel knows the Hamas mentality better than anyone outside of their neighborhood.
Israel knows that Hamas will not honor any ceasefire, and will use the lull in warfare to restock their rockets, weapons, and ammunition.
Can the Israeli and Palestinian not live together, or is the animosity, suspicion, fear, hatred, and anger due to the politics of the Middle-east that are designed not for any win-win outcome ?
Israeli and Palestinian Formula for Peace show that the two communities can live together if the dark political agenda of Hamas can be dropped.
This peace prospect was possible as shown by the other larger numbers of Palestinians living on the West Bank and led by President Abbas - all are willing to make the two state option a reality until it was torpedoed by Hamas unilateral and illegal declaration of a breakaway state of its own in the Gaza Strip.
Until this day, none of the Middle-eastern Arab State has accepted nor recognised Hamas authority nor legitimacy, and its continued existence - with the support from Iran - is the cause for the deaths and misery of the Palestinians in the Gaza Strip, and is the single threat to peace between Israel and the Palestinians.
-
Originally posted by Jarhum:
Atobe,
I would see to it that several of your claims are rebutted although I will agree to one.
Can you agree to one and not accept the others ?
If Hamas had abandoned its ambition of destroying Israel, would there be any killings of any number of people ?
Hamas and Israel are alike in so many ways. Israeli extremists and hardliners harbour the same thoughts of each other vis a vis Hamas. Killings occured even before the establishment of Hamas. Israel has been found guilty of numerous terrorist activities ever since 1948. I find the claim that the rationale behind the malicious killings of Palestinians is attributed to Hamas and the ones who does the actual killing is innocent and perceived to be the "oppressed", utterly ridiculous. This is contrary to the typical logical mind of any sane person. Moreover, the Israeli politicians have been planning for this since mid 2007. And the IDF southern command has been pressurizing the central command for the green light to attack. The knesset ratified the incursion before the expiry of the ceasefire date.
Those in the Israeli Government are not extremists like Hamas - as the Israeli Government is legitimately elected through an election process.
Hamas has no legitimacy as an authority in the Gaza Strip - with the only recognised legal authority being the Government led by President Abbas.
The Israelis and the IDF has always been planning military reactions according to different scenarious - so does the SAF - is it illegal for a legitimate state to prepare for war in defense of its citizens ?
The fact that the IDF only attacked with the approval of the Knesset showed that it had legal status, compared to Hamas which was not even authorised by the Palestinian Parliament to attack Israel.
Hamas no legitimacy as an authority in the Gaza Strip, as seen in the fact that no Arab Government had recognised the existence of Hamas as an authority.
If Hamas had been able to exercise strategic wisdom and smarter tactics in their confrontation with Israel, would there be any large number of deaths on the Palestinian side compared to the Israelis
I agree with you on this. The casualty ratio will be more proportionate. This is attributed to the ill-equiped Hamas military infrastructure. Militar analysts have pointed out that if the scenario was such Israel were to engaged in a warfare with infrastructure similar to Hamas, their soldiers will be killed.
Have you forgotten the 6-Day War in 1967 - when Israel was outnumbered 10 to 1 ?
The Israeli military infrastructure was nothing compared to the well-armed military forces of Egypt, Syria, Jordan - that immediately borders Israel - and the military contributions from Islamic countries further away such as Saudi Arabia, Iraq and Iran.
Yet, through its own superior intellect, resourcefulness, ingenuity, intelligence, strategy, and tactics of the Israeli civilian and military leaders, and the quality of the individual rank and file of the IDF - Israel was able to wipe out the most dire threat to Israel as a state, and all concluded in 6 days with minimal loss of lives to themselves.
Israel did not use their own civilian as Human Shield to garner international sympathy, but had instead made the aggressors pay a heavy price despite their better military hardware delivered with the compliments of the Soviet Union.
Why should the cowardly and unintelligent leadership of Hamas resort to hiding amongst the Palestinian civilians in the Gaza ?
Hamas will not borrow your line of argument as their agenda is to win the psychological propaganda war over the Israelis - by causing as many Palestinian casualties as possible after each intentional attack towards Israel.
Is this your own opinion or cited from a credible, neutral source?
Do you need to depend on neutral source, or are you incapable of any independent thinking on your own, or do you doubt your own neutrality to be objective ?
It clearly shows that you are too involved in the conflict for one reason or another.
Is Israel the only one guilty of the killing, or is Hamas not equally guilty for causing the casualties and deaths amongst the innocent Palestinians - by attacking Israel from densely populated areas of Palestinian residences, refugee camps and schools ?
Israel is guilty of the massacre of almost 800 lives, at least half of which are civilians according to U.N sources. Hamas is guilty of the massacre of 13 Israeli, 10 of which are soldiers. The allegation that Hamas largely fires rockets from within civilian areas is still a matter of contention. Prior to the ground incursion by the IDF, I doubt Hamas fired their rockets deep from their own territory. This is due to the fact that Hamas rockets reached Ashdod a city 40km from the Gaza Border and Hamas's projectiles have similar reach only. Due to the ground incursion, the fighting occured within the civilian populations.
Does the balance in numbers make the one side less liable then the other ?
If the Gaza Strip is as densely populated as everyone has claimed, and the Palestinians are packed like rats in the densely packed residences in the Gaza - can there be any space left for Hamas to launch their rockets or fire their motars ?
Is it not obvious that Hamas is firing from the tightly packed residential neighborhoods of the Gaza Strip ?
Only those with an agenda to promote Hamas cause will abandon objectivity and neutrality to deny this fact and classify these as "allegations" and "contentions".
Have you not succumbed to propaganda - which is "Hamas organised effort to promote a particular belief" - that Israelis are massacreing the Palestinians ?
Are you not regurgitating what is being repeated on behalf of Hamas - despite your declared efforts of being a neutral ?
I find your statement that the fact that the Israelis are massacreing the Palestinians is Hamas perpetuated propaganda most disturbing. Neutrality and factual information is being tarnished by blatant, incomprehensible accusations of being Hamas propaganda tools. Hamas releases nothing more than mere rhetoric to the press, short of relevent statistics and figures. It is the humanitarian organizations and personnel working from Gaza providing us with the relevent statistics and facts.
I shall not present my facts and substantiations with regards to oil exploitation as I have yet to exercise my due dilligence on this issue. I hope some others there follow this lead and realise that ample research and study neccessitates any legitimate analysis on this conflict.
Hamas - like the Hezbollahs in Lebanon - are tools used by the Iranians for their well known agenda to see to the total destruction of Israel.
For an organisation that has moved away from the main Palestinian body, and with almost all Palestinians in the Gaza being economically impoverished - have you not question where it is getting the funds to purchase all the rockets, explosives, ammo and weapons from ?
This conflict has been analysed for decades - and missed opportunities for peace have abounded, with the most recent prospects of a two nation state being totalled destroyed by Hamas usurping of the authority in the Gaza Strip.
Any peace between the Israelis and Palestinians that result in a two state resolution to their problems, can only result in Iran's interests being affected.
It will do you well to understand the situation in the Middle-east based on our local community values, and not allow ourselves to be influenced by religious ties, or politics - as their politics has nothing to do with us, nor should we be involved in their form of ethnic links to their religious views, which has always taken precedence over the Theology of their Faith.
-
Originally posted by freedomclub:
If Hamas had been able to exercise strategic wisdom and smarter tactics in their confrontation with Israel, would there be any large number of deaths on the Palestinian side compared to the Israelis ?
How would you advise the vastly outnumbered and outgunned Hamas to wage war against Israel, the Middle-East's superpower? Let's hear some of your "strategic wisdom".
Will it not be more strategically intelligent for Hamas to wage a political war then a military war ?
Osama bin Ladin might as well borrow your intellect in protesting that after the 9-11 World Trade Center destruction - USA's right to hunt down Al Qaeda and Osama should stop when 500+ Afghans have been killed.
This is totally unrelated, but I'll address it anyway. If the US wanted to catch Bin Laden, it had plenty of chances to do so. After the 1993 WTC bombings, Clinton let him escape after receiving an offer from Sudan to extradite him. Then when the Taliban made the Bush Administration an offer after 9/11, the US refused. After all, the war plans for the invasion of Afghanistan were already prepared before 9/11 and troops were already massing across the Afghan border. That's because Bin Laden's just another CIA front that was hired back during the Afghan-Soviet war. In fact, a day before 9/11, Bin Laden was in a military hospital in Pakistan receiving medical treatment. Dont forget that the CIA and ISI have a rich history of cooperation starting from the Afghan-Soviet war up till this day.
Presumbaly you got your information from Osama ?
Is Israel the only one guilty of the killing, or is Hamas not equally guilty for causing the casualties and deaths amongst the innocent Palestinians - by attacking Israel from densely populated areas of Palestinian residences, refugee camps and schools ?
No, as I have said many times, both parties are guilty of bloodshed. If everyone agreed on that, instead of trying to condemn one side alone, then there would not be any need to argue on this issue. Would you tell me where in Gaza is it not densely packed? I dont know, but if you can make such a statement, then you must know right? They dont have HDBs for the 1.5 million people there.
Israel had given the Palestinians time and warning to move out of areas that they are planning to attack, and such early warning could also serve as early notice for Hamas to move out of the danger zones.
Unfortunately, Hamas do not reciprocate in similar ways by giving early notice as to where and when the rockets will land onto Europe.
If someone inform the residents that an attack will occur in District 10, surely the residents there will move out and stay in some other adjacent Districts.
Hamas have been known to prevent Palestinians from leaving, and has even gone so far as to recurit - the innocent, the uneducated, the mentally imbalanced, the gullible, the young, the emotionally unstable - to act as suicide bombers.
Have you not succumbed to propaganda - which is "Hamas organised effort to promote a particular belief" - that Israelis are massacreing the Palestinians ?
While "propaganda" does not have any negative denotations, I know that people like to use it to connote lies and misinformation. "Propaganda" is a technical word. I dont think Hamas can wage an effective media war because they dont have the means to do so, unlike Israel, which has taken the media war to Youtube. Anyway, how is it not true that Israel is NOT masscreing Palestinians? Your very stand is based on Israeli propaganda. How are you different?
It seems you are less resourceful then Hamas, and just because you are less imaginative then Hamas - others will not underestimate Hamas nor take them for granted in the manner that you prefer to treat Hamas.
Hamas do not need too much resources to wage an effective media war, as the news chasing reporters are only too eager to enter the war zone to report from the frontlines and to give support to the supposed underdogs.
During the Vietnam War, the less sophisticated Communist Vietnamese was able to mobilise public opinions, and take advantage of the anti-war sentiments in the USA to drive a wedge between the US Government and those would-be inductees into the US Military.
When Iraq and Iran was fighting the seven year war, French companies were in Iran exploring oil and gas.
When the USA was conducting its 'shock and awe' campaign during Dessert Storm I and II - oil companies were continuously pumping out crude in the region.
Gaza is in a totally different context. As you know, Hamas does not have anything that resembles a national military. But how are you proving that oil and natural gas doesn't exist when you're just using your preconception that it does not exist to prove it doesn't exist? In the first place, you're not prepared to accept that. I also dont know very much about this, I've just read this information recently. And of course I would believe it until I read anything credible to the contrary.
How did the oil and gas suddenly appear in the headlines - when decades have slipped by without a squeak of its existence ?
Immediately after the 6-Day war, the oil rich Arab World had formed an oil cartel, and practically held the world hostage to their agenda to move support away from Israel.
It is a known fact that Israel depend on imported oil, and if there is oil in the Gaza - do you think that it will not be detected by the Israelis ?
Israel and Egypt had been at loggerhead since 1967 over the Israeli prospecting for oil in the Gulf of Suez and Sinai - do you think that Israel will not have also taken the trouble to look into the Gaza Strip too ?
-
Originally posted by oxford mushroom:
what does HAMAS seek that cannot be settled without rocket fires ?
The land that was taken from Arabs from Israel, first by the UN during the formation of Israel and later by Israel itself during subsequent wars. 4 million Palestinians have lost their homes in Israel, driven out by the Jews for the past 60 years. Do they not have a right to return to their homes? A right which Israel has constantly denied against the ruling of an earlier UN resolution.
So Hamas should not use rockets and suicide bombers against Israel...but what other weapons do they have against Israel? Let the palestinians have the same F16 jets and laser-guided bombs and then require them to target only military installations in Israel.
Should we be constantly amazed by the empty intellect of one that is supposed to have had the benefit of passing through the halls of Oxford ?
Did the Israelis resort to terrorism when they were vastly outnumbered by the masses of Arab forces that forced Israel to conduct a pre-emptive war that gave them complete superiority in a 6-Day War in 1967 ?
It was through superior intellect, creativity, resourcefulness, and discipline in the rank and file of the Israeli population that gave them victory in 1967.
This is certainly lacking in the Hamas leadership, who had displayed total callousness and irresponsiblity in attacking Israel without preparing themselves and the civilians - in the same manner as the Hezbollah did in Lebanon.
Instead, Hamas preferred to place the Palestinians in jeogpardy of suffering heavy casualties - all with the hope of winning world public opinion, and to place political pressures onto Israel.
Force can only result in more force being applied, and as seen - it has led to a constant spiral into the depths of evil ingenuity.
Why should Hamas sabotage the efforts of the West Bank supporters of their President Abbas - when their community was on the verge of making progress in the peace negotiations with Israel - so as to achieve a peaceful two state existence ?
-
Originally posted by oxford mushroom:
Go and ask any jew if their father Abraham was born in the land now called Israel. Any jewish rabbi will tell you no, their ancestor came from Ur of the Chaldees, in Babylonia or present-day Iraq. The jewish ancestry has more in common with Sadam Hussein than the Hittites, Jebusites and other tribes that inhabit the land on either side of the Jordon River. If present day palestinians should be sent to Saudi Arabia and Jordan, then perhaps the Israelis should be returned to where they originated in Iraq.
Who are the Jews ? Is Abraham - the Biblical acclaimed Father of the Jews and the Arabs - a Jew ?
Is there any worth in bringing up anthropology in this communal wars between the Jews and the Arab communities ?
Throughout the ages, wars have been fought between communities over land, and it continues to be so with racial or communal overtones - that is made worst by religions.
-
Jarhum, Jerusalem was never mentioned in the quran. It's not holy to the Arabs.
The conquering Arabs are very fond of building mosques over destroyed holy sites of other faiths.
-
Originally posted by angel7030:
Wars is a hyprocrisy of a few superpowers creation, on one hand, they call for cease fire and peaceful negotiation, on the other hand, they supplied the arms
Thank you angel, for your thoughtful post.
I pride myself as being a humanitarian, and had called for both sides to ceasefire, so that the palestinians and jews may breathe easier.
In my pride, i had failed to realized that a ceasefire would only prolong the eventual death of more jews and palestinians, because both sides will only replenish their arsenals and refresh their troops and re-organise.
Once ready, the killings will only resume.
Israel had shown itself capable of restrain, refraining from attacking while suffering for months of missile oppresion and deaths. It will restrain again, so long as Hamas, the terrorists organisation stops its deadly oppression.
If Israel doesnt, I will be on the forefront to condemn it.
But more critically, Hamas must either disband or tear up its constitution to murder every living jew and infidel. It's an abomination to humanity in this day and age.
The palestinians had suffered much, and will only continue to suffer more if Hamas does not gives up its ideology. The palestininans deserve a better life, they are humans just like the rest of us.
There had been huge amount of funds donated to them, by US and the UN organistions since the late 60s till today. But unfortunately, such funds were used to buy killing materials instead of uplifting the palestinians. It must stop.
Only you moderate muslims can help now. I am sure there will be many others whom are non-muslims who will stand beside you to help the palestinians.
We singaporeans are not superhumans. We too were kicked out to a lemon but we made lemonade out of this piece of rock called Singapore, thru intelligence and hardwork, fed our nation and made it wealthy.
So too can our fellow humans of the palestinain citizenship.
We would welcome the peaceful moderate ones to share from us on how to increase intelligence and wealth and obtain a decent life for all instead of war, which Arafat denied them during the 70s when UN tried to provide education and better living conditions, but was rejected and kick out of the refugee camps or threatened, because Arafat needed killers to wipe out the jews.Arafat prefered to keep the population stupid, just as Hamas intends today, to feed their militant machine going.
The Almighty intended us humans to have intelligence, which is why we were given brains to process information, know right from wrong. Advance Mathematics and science came from Arabs during the golden years of the good prophet Muhammed's earlier benevolent dynastic rule.
Palestinians can too, evolve back to those days of progress and further elevate the arab world in peace and intelligence, not only for muslims, but for humanity and know the Almighty better.
The world is big enough and have much resources to be shared. For example, even if Hamas kill everyone of us whom are not muslims but infidels, according to their misinterpretation, it would leave only 1.5million palestinians in the world.
How much can 1.5million palestinians feed on the billions of apples that can be harvested in the world? How much would it have to be left rotten?The good Prophet Mohammend had never intended to kill the rest of the world or he would have divine intervention to do so during his reign.
But who is Osama and Hamas, these animals, believed and supported by the faithful, to do something which the good prophet had never intended to do? How dare and who are they but fallible mortals to presume the Almighty's Will?
Thus, moderate muslims must stand up and challenge the legitimacy and moral authority of these murderous Hamas and other false prophets who are killing the palestinians as well as humanity.
This is the only way to help palestinians now and uplift their lives thru peace, this i plead on bended knees. Fatalistic belief in predictions of doom can be averted if we act now.
-
Originally posted by Jarhum:
skywood,
you are bringing superficial elements into this discussion to substantiate unjustified facts contrary to actual happenings of the war. I quote this:
From The Telegraph:
Two United Nations contractors were killed by an Israeli tank shell today during an official suspension of hostilities designed to allow relief operations in the besieged Gaza Strip.If I were to utilize your brand of argument, your perspective infers that it was the military elite who perpetuated the orders for the killings of U.N contractors.
Reports were did not alleged Hamas threw the first punch following the 3 hour truce, however reports that THE IDF resumed air strikes after the end of the ceasefire.
Thus your accusation that Hamas may have fired during the ceasefire is utterly false. This is a stark reflection of your prejudice. But do not stoop too low by fabricating facts which are proven otherwise.
"Will the militants stay away from mosque, schools and hospitals in their effort to attack the Isrealis? definitely not"
how do you know Hamas are based in schools, mosques and hospitals? Many of the Israeli accusations have not been substantiated. On the other hand, Israeli attacks on civilian infrastructure have been justified by independent sources that no Hamas fighters were present. Notably the U.N school.
" And the justified attack LOOK like atrocities to the reporters because the militants are the one who dies."
Your sentence is grossly incomprehensible. I do not see your intended point here.
I am appalled that a fellow Singapore justifies attacks on innocent civilians. In accordance to the Geneva Convention, no attacks on civilians are justified. You seem to be an ardent supporter of terrorism.
Not only Hamas combatants die by Israeli aggression as many, if not more, innocent children, women and civilians are killed as well.
"Military discipline. LEARN."
You are the pot calling the kettle black. You seem to severely lack knowledge and much skill at stringing coherent points across. However, your assertation that the Israeli soldiers obey orders via the chain of command NOT to attack is proven false. They did attack innocent civilians. Thus it can be deduced that either it was the military elites of the Israeli terrorist army who commanded the attack or there was a severe breakdown in the dissemination of orders, meaning that military discipline of the Israelis was severely lacking.
"Mentioning that peace groups advocate for peace is stupid."
My response: "My emphasis was on the fact that those peace organizations are Jewish and Israeli but they condemn the aggressions of their army."
You must be blind or rather, blinded by your overzealous support of the Israeli war crimes. Never did I mention peace groups advocate peace. That is stating the obvious. I wonder the level of common sense you possess. Currently, judging from your accounts, it appears to be pretty low.
Mentioning that peace groups advocate for peace is moronic. Get that idea right. even if they are aliens or Israeli or Palestinians, of course peace group advocate peace. what a stupid, stupid point to bring up. and to keep defending that? what a stupid stupid thing to do.Military Discipline holds. LEARN. If Israeli want to attack civilian, there will be no one left to report it. You doubt that? Proven that Israel attack civilian unprovoked? NOT.
YOU doubt Hamas will stay in the mosque and hospital and school and attack Israel from there? The guys who lob rockets into Israel and expect nothing to happen? Use your COMMON SENSE.
-
People will be selective. Some blatantly selective.
When someone else's report or article expresses opinion that is in line their sentiments, it will be touted as authoritative statements that support their views. Any report or article that is critical of their views will be touted as foreign trash.
When the omniscience [archangel] ask you "What do you think of the Isreal/Palestine conflict?" The subject is not important, as the emphasis is on the "you".
Are you going to produce UN reports, and other peoples' opinion?
Read them, digest them, and please come up with your own opinion and assessment.
You are not the product of one infusion of information, but the sum total of all the information gathered through the years. Therefore it is biasness on your part that make you select information agreeable to you, and label information otherwise as that of staple foreign lies.
***
My Islamophobia is garnered through the years of observation of Muslim neighbours, friends, colleagues, countries, governments and news reports. And not through staple American reports. Individually I have no quarrel with Muslims, but collectively I do not trust the "jemmiah islamiah". They are evil, like the communist of the Stalin, Mao era. The grassroots are the sheeps, it is the higher hierachy that are wolf in sheep clothings. Everywhere, when a Muslim community is small, they behave peacefully, but when they grow, they become belligerent, discriminatory, and oppressive and imperialistic contrary to the tenets promised in their theology. Their defence is justification, divine justification. Never once acknowledging that it is their yokel mentality that is taken advantage of by those who have political agenda through religion. Belief, as that is what relligion actually is, is a strong motivational force.
Can there be peace between Isreal and Palestine? My opinion is no. Because the of the hijacked religion of the majority of the Palestinian people. Why is the religion of peace unable to procure peace in the Middle East? Simple, I see it is because there is great avenue for political hatred in the faith. This explosive force is acknowledged by the political leaders of our country, and of those around us.
My personal opinion expressed here could invite enforcement actions, therefore the qualification "my personal opinion". And believe me, I am holding back.
-
Originally posted by Atobe:
Should we be constantly amazed by the empty intellect of one that is supposed to have had the benefit of passing through the halls of Oxford ?
Did the Israelis resort to terrorism when they were vastly outnumbered by the masses of Arab forces that forced Israel to conduct a pre-emptive war that gave them complete superiority in a 6-Day War in 1967 ?
It was through superior intellect, creativity, resourcefulness, and discipline in the rank and file of the Israeli population that gave them victory in 1967.
This is certainly lacking in the Hamas leadership, who had displayed total callousness and irresponsiblity in attacking Israel without preparing themselves and the civilians - in the same manner as the Hezbollah did in Lebanon.
Instead, Hamas preferred to place the Palestinians in jeogpardy of suffering heavy casualties - all with the hope of winning world public opinion, and to place political pressures onto Israel.
Force can only result in more force being applied, and as seen - it has led to a constant spiral into the depths of evil ingenuity.
Why should Hamas sabotage the efforts of the West Bank supporters of their President Abbas - when their community was on the verge of making progress in the peace negotiations with Israel - so as to achieve a peaceful two state existence ?
Well, we should certainly not be surprised by the imbecilic posting of the ever reliably daft atobe.
What need does Israel have to resort to suicide bombers and rockets made from tin cans when the americans have supplied them with F16 jets and laser guided bombs (despite which, they still manage to bomb a UN school when they have been given the GPS coordinates)? The palestinians have every right to wage war against Israel to recover their stolen land. The problem is: the combatants are not evenly matched. Israel has modern weapons, the palestinians have only martyrs.
This is a zero sum game and might is right. It will only end when Israel exterminates the entire palestinian population or when the palestinians drive the Israelis to the sea, neither of which is likely to happen soon.
The palestinians should simply bide their time and not invite conflict until they have the upper hand. In a few decades there will be more arabs than jews in that part of the world. There is a limit to how many arabs an Israeli soldier can shoot down before being overwhlemed himself.
-
Israel has lost the shield of moral righteousness. Its massacre of civilians, its blatant attacks on UN refugee shelters, schools, aid workers, reporters, children, women, elderly, mosques and churches all show that Israel is a rogue state. Once Israel loses all pretensions of humanity then humanity will lose all mercy for the Zionists. Nuclear technology is being proliferated within the Islamic world. The day the Zionists achieve what they think will be total victory, will be the day when the Sword of Damocles shall fall. The logic is very clear and the path to peace is open but the Zionists choose the fate of wild beasts.
-
Originally posted by oxford mushroom:
Well, we should certainly not be surprised by the imbecilic posting of the ever reliably daft atobe.
What need does Israel have to resort to suicide bombers and rockets made from tin cans when the americans have supplied them with F16 jets and laser guided bombs (despite which, they still manage to bomb a UN school when they have been given the GPS coordinates)? The palestinians have every right to wage war against Israel to recover their stolen land. The problem is: the combatants are not evenly matched. Israel has modern weapons, the palestinians have only martyrs.
This is a zero sum game and might is right. It will only end when Israel exterminates the entire palestinian population or when the palestinians drive the Israelis to the sea, neither of which is likely to happen soon.
The palestinians should simply bide their time and not invite conflict until they have the upper hand. In a few decades there will be more arabs than jews in that part of the world. There is a limit to how many arabs an Israeli soldier can shoot down before being overwhlemed himself.
The land conquered by Arabs in AD 637 do not remain theirs forever. The Jews are able to reclaim it today.
-
Originally posted by googoomuck:
The land conquered by Arabs in AD 637 do not remain theirs forever. The Jews are able to reclaim it today.
True....it's not yours unless you can defend it. And the palestinians will try to regain their land by rockets and suicide bombings. If Menachem Begin can become prime minister by bombing the King David hotel, Khaled Meshaal may well be president by sending rockets into Israeli schools.
If they fail, they are terrorists. If they eventually succeed, they are freedom fighters. Might is right!
-
Originally posted by oxford mushroom:
Well, we should certainly not be surprised by the imbecilic posting of the ever reliably daft atobe.
What need does Israel have to resort to suicide bombers and rockets made from tin cans when the americans have supplied them with F16 jets and laser guided bombs (despite which, they still manage to bomb a UN school when they have been given the GPS coordinates)? The palestinians have every right to wage war against Israel to recover their stolen land. The problem is: the combatants are not evenly matched. Israel has modern weapons, the palestinians have only martyrs.
This is a zero sum game and might is right. It will only end when Israel exterminates the entire palestinian population or when the palestinians drive the Israelis to the sea, neither of which is likely to happen soon.
The palestinians should simply bide their time and not invite conflict until they have the upper hand. In a few decades there will be more arabs than jews in that part of the world. There is a limit to how many arabs an Israeli soldier can shoot down before being overwhlemed himself.
Tsk tsk.....
Resorting to insults because you loss the discussion.
It's not the first time you lost, you should have gotten used to it by now.
PS: I am still trying my best to forget your logic of "when interest rates rise, bond prices rise in tandem".