Israel hits Palestine again while West Cheers Them On
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Originally posted by Atobe:
Will it not be more strategically intelligent for Hamas to wage a political war then a military war ?
Presumbaly you got your information from Osama ?
Israel had given the Palestinians time and warning to move out of areas that they are planning to attack, and such early warning could also serve as early notice for Hamas to move out of the danger zones.
Unfortunately, Hamas do not reciprocate in similar ways by giving early notice as to where and when the rockets will land onto Europe.
If someone inform the residents that an attack will occur in District 10, surely the residents there will move out and stay in some other adjacent Districts.
Hamas have been known to prevent Palestinians from leaving, and has even gone so far as to recurit - the innocent, the uneducated, the mentally imbalanced, the gullible, the young, the emotionally unstable - to act as suicide bombers.
It seems you are less resourceful then Hamas, and just because you are less imaginative then Hamas - others will not underestimate Hamas nor take them for granted in the manner that you prefer to treat Hamas.
Hamas do not need too much resources to wage an effective media war, as the news chasing reporters are only too eager to enter the war zone to report from the frontlines and to give support to the supposed underdogs.
During the Vietnam War, the less sophisticated Communist Vietnamese was able to mobilise public opinions, and take advantage of the anti-war sentiments in the USA to drive a wedge between the US Government and those would-be inductees into the US Military.
How did the oil and gas suddenly appear in the headlines - when decades have slipped by without a squeak of its existence ?
Immediately after the 6-Day war, the oil rich Arab World had formed an oil cartel, and practically held the world hostage to their agenda to move support away from Israel.
It is a known fact that Israel depend on imported oil, and if there is oil in the Gaza - do you think that it will not be detected by the Israelis ?
Israel and Egypt had been at loggerhead since 1967 over the Israeli prospecting for oil in the Gulf of Suez and Sinai - do you think that Israel will not have also taken the trouble to look into the Gaza Strip too ?
Will it not be more strategically intelligent for Hamas to wage a political war then a military war ?
Which they already have, and won in 2006. In the end, might is right in the world, regardless of moral integrity.
Presumbaly you got your information from Osama ?
I didnt expect you to resort to the kind of ad hominem attacks that xtreyier indulges. You have not proved anything in the statement except the fact that you refuse to look at information that is contrary to your preconceptions.
Israel had given the Palestinians time and warning to move out of areas that they are planning to attack, and such early warning could also serve as early notice for Hamas to move out of the danger zones.
Then why would they bother giving warnings if it could aid Hamas? Even if they give warnings, the rampant bombing of the Gaza Strip, where the Palestinians are prevented from living is bound to result in heavy casualties because of superior Israeli firepower (ie via the shockwaves and structural damage to buildings). The casualties speak for themselves:
Scoreboard for Gaza invasion:
Palestinians dead: 780+
Palestinians injured: 3100+
Israeli deaths: 6 soldiers (4 by friendly fire) and 4 civilians
Besides, there have already been instances where Israel had deliberately bombed civilian homes:
"The Israeli military may have committed war crimes in Gaza, the UN's most senior human rights official said tonight, as Israeli troops pressed on with their increasingly deadly offensive in defiance of a UN security council resolution demanding a ceasefire.
Navi Pillay, the UN high commissioner for human rights, singled out the killing this week of up to 30 Palestinians in Zeitoun, south-east of Gaza City, when Israel shelled a house where its troops had told about 110 civilians to take shelter.
Pillay, a former international criminal court judge from South Africa, told the BBC the incident "appears to have all the elements of war crimes". She called for "credible, independent and transparent" investigations into possible violations of humanitarian law.
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More than 750 Palestinians have died since the start of the Israeli military operation. More than half of Gaza's population are children, and the Palestinian ministry of health said about 42% of the casualties have been children.
Unicef said at least 100 children and minors were killed in the first 10 days of fighting. The Palestinian Centre for Human Rights, which posts staff at hospitals to track casualties, put this number at more than 160."
- UN levels war crimes warning at Israel- http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2009/jan/09/gaza-palestinians-israel-evacuees-zeitoun
Hamas do not need too much resources to wage an effective media war, as the news chasing reporters are only too eager to enter the war zone to report from the frontlines and to give support to the supposed underdogs.
Unfortunately Israel has blocked off the foreign media from entering Gaza even though a major humanitarian crisis is precipitating in Gaza. I dont think it takes a lot of effort to figure who has the upper hand in the media war.
How did the oil and gas suddenly appear in the headlines - when decades have slipped by without a squeak of its existence ?
Decades? I already quoted an article to say it was discovered in 2000 and how the rights to the oil field were being negotiated between the Israeli government, the PA and British oil firms. However, since the ruin of the PA, the oil and natural gas was supposed to fall under the ownership of Hamas. Naturally, Israel could not allow that and hence, this MIGHT be one of the reason why Israel has decided to invade Gaza, though they are plenty others.
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Originally posted by oxford mushroom:
Well, we should certainly not be surprised by the imbecilic posting of the ever reliably daft atobe.
What need does Israel have to resort to suicide bombers and rockets made from tin cans when the americans have supplied them with F16 jets and laser guided bombs (despite which, they still manage to bomb a UN school when they have been given the GPS coordinates)? The palestinians have every right to wage war against Israel to recover their stolen land. The problem is: the combatants are not evenly matched. Israel has modern weapons, the palestinians have only martyrs.
This is a zero sum game and might is right. It will only end when Israel exterminates the entire palestinian population or when the palestinians drive the Israelis to the sea, neither of which is likely to happen soon.
The palestinians should simply bide their time and not invite conflict until they have the upper hand. In a few decades there will be more arabs than jews in that part of the world. There is a limit to how many arabs an Israeli soldier can shoot down before being overwhlemed himself.
Why would anyone be surprised that you can be so affected by one whom you claim to be an imbecile and daft ?
It certainly shows the shallowness that have constantly been observed from the many posts that you have been exposed for the shallow depths in political thinking and original thoughts.
Stolen land ?
If everyone claim their land to be stolen - as did Malaysia with Singapore over the Pedra Branca issue, and China with Japan over the Diao Yue Tai Island, and Japan with Russia over the Kuril Island chain - we all should be concerned that an Oxford trained mind will sanction the indiscriminate use of rockets to wage a war of terror to reclaim what is being disputed.
Will Singaporeans have any legitimacy to be in Singapore, if the Johor Sultanate decide to turn back the clock of history and claim that the Singapore Island was not sold to the British but was on a term lease that became obscured by poor interpretation and translation of languages ?
Yes, Israel may have been supplied sophisticated weapons by the USA, and possess its own high tech weapon systems - and these were used for precision attacks against legitimate Hamas rocket and mortar firing positions that were purposefully located near or in the midst of dense Palestinian residential areas.
Compared to the mass bombing of Berlin, London, Stalingrad, Nanking, and Tokyo - the Gaza civilian casualties of 800+ remains low by comparison - and prove that the Israeli targetting efforts with the precision weapon systems were not indiscriminate.
The fact that Israel was able to keep its own civilian casualties low, compared to the high number of Palestinian civilian casualties - will expose the wanton disregard of the Hamas leadership towards any kind of preparation to protect their own Palestinian civilians BEFORE launching an all out rocket and motar attack against Israeli civilian population centers.
The shallowness of your tertiary educated mind is even more shocking by the mindless statement that - "The palestinians should simply bide their time and not invite conflict until they have the upper hand. In a few decades there will be more arabs than jews in that part of the world. There is a limit to how many arabs an Israeli soldier can shoot down before being overwhlemed himself. "
There is the larger group of Palestinians living on the West Bank that is led by the elected President Abbas, who is supported by the West Bank Palestinians to make a peace settlement that will allow the Two State solution to become a reality.
It remains Hamas objective to keep the conflict alive - in part to serve Iranian goals and to receive a continuous flow of funds to allow for the survival of the Hamas Party.
If Hamas should become a spent force and be neutralised by the current Israeli efforts, the region may succeed in achieving a win-win situation of Two Separate State living in support of one another.
Afterall, the Palestinians depend on employment within Israel, and the state of Israel depend on the Palestinians for low cost labor.
Can this be a zero sum game ?
Only in the shallow and mindless thinking of those who believe the halls of Oxford will qualify them to comment with authority on any aspect of Life's events.
Unfortunately, the vast halls of Oxford can only echo the sound of those more willing to challenge the status quo with original thinking, and the daring to move out of the cycle to seek new ways to solve old solutions - instead of being caught in the old cycles of tried and tested methods that are out-of-date.
Are we not familiar with your dogmatic thinking even on Singapore issues that find you attempting to bask in the white light fixed by others ?
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Originally posted by oxford mushroom:
True....it's not yours unless you can defend it. And the palestinians will try to regain their land by rockets and suicide bombings. If Menachem Begin can become prime minister by bombing the King David hotel, Khaled Meshaal may well be president by sending rockets into Israeli schools.
If they fail, they are terrorists. If they eventually succeed, they are freedom fighters. Might is right!
If it is "True....it's not yours unless you can defend it." - why spite the Israelis for having been able to defend what they have claimed rightfully to be theirs ?
The Israeli fight for existence during the British Colonial Rule of the Palestine Region was in a different period of time, when the fight for nationhood justify any means.
Even the American Colonists were treated - by the English Government - as rebels and terrorists by their constant ambushes and skirmishes that injured and killed many soldiers sent from England to reclaim their colonies in America.
Since the end of WW-2, when the Jews were resettled into the Palestine Region that was governed by the British Colonial Office, at least 60 years have transpired since the creation of the State of Israel - which is recognised by the United Nations.
The State of Israel may not have been recognised by the other Middle-eastern countries then, it certainly has seen more UN members accepting the State of Israel.
If you can condone the Palestinian methods to attack the civilians of a sovereign state - to reclaim what they believe to be rightfully theirs, are you not similarly condoning the opening of a pandora's box in the multitude of rebel organisation fighting for their own independent homeland across the globe ?
This is shocking coming from one that sees others as daft and imbecilic.
Should we not be concern that characters - who will unabashedly advertise their claims to be from prestigeous institutions of higher learning - can have such low intellect resting in a highly conceited head, and possibly holding some positions that affect the lives of countless others ?
We all should pray that God will have the immense wisdom to forbid the passing of such genes to the next existence.
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Originally posted by freedomclub:
Will it not be more strategically intelligent for Hamas to wage a political war then a military war ?
Which they already have, and won in 2006. In the end, might is right in the world, regardless of moral integrity.
What did they win in 2006 ?
Did they win a political war or even a military one over Israel ?
Instead, all they did was to split the Palestinian Community into two - and weakening the Palestinian causes by their divisive acts that saw their illegally usurping the authority from the legitimately elected Palestinian Government of President Abbas.
All that the Palestinian had achieved by remaining in the Hamas controlled Gaza Strip was to make themselves into a pariah state that is ignored even by the other Arab States of Egypt, Syria, Jordan, Lebanon, Saudi Arabia, Libya, Morroco, Iraq, and all other World Communities that support the Arab cause.
What victory are you dreaming about that occurred in 2006 ?
Presumbaly you got your information from Osama ?
I didnt expect you to resort to the kind of ad hominem attacks that xtreyier indulges. You have not proved anything in the statement except the fact that you refuse to look at information that is contrary to your preconceptions.
For one who claim others for refusing to look at information that is contrary to pre-conceptions - you seem to be indulging in double standards that begin with you depending on propaganda for your facts.
Is it not obvious from your circular arguments based on flawed logic thinking - that you are fixated to the Hamas cause and with you being affected by the Palestinian casualties more then by the Principles of the Issues themselves ?
Israel had given the Palestinians time and warning to move out of areas that they are planning to attack, and such early warning could also serve as early notice for Hamas to move out of the danger zones.
Then why would they bother giving warnings if it could aid Hamas?
Surely, we can understand your position in not see the obvious, as we can see that you are more indulgent in Hamas agenda despite your claims to neutrality.
Even if Hamas should take heed of the advance warning made by Israel, it will already serve Israeli objectives in neutralising Hamas positions - by emptying Hamas personnels and destroying the infrastructure.
Even if they give warnings, the rampant bombing of the Gaza Strip, where the Palestinians are prevented from living is bound to result in heavy casualties because of superior Israeli firepower (ie via the shockwaves and structural damage to buildings). The casualties speak for themselves:
Scoreboard for Gaza invasion:
Palestinians dead: 780+
Palestinians injured: 3100+
Israeli deaths: 6 soldiers (4 by friendly fire) and 4 civilians
Besides, there have already been instances where Israel had deliberately bombed civilian homes:
"The Israeli military may have committed war crimes in Gaza, the UN's most senior human rights official said tonight, as Israeli troops pressed on with their increasingly deadly offensive in defiance of a UN security council resolution demanding a ceasefire.
The scoreboard surely shows the unpreparedness of the Hamas leadership to take advance construction of civilian bomb shelters, stocking of food, water and energy, and training for their civilians to respond to warning systems.
The scoreboard shows the irresponsibility of the Hamas leadership to declare that rocket attacks will resume at the end of the last negotiated truce period, even when throughout the truce period there were no efforts to prepare the Palestinians for this expected outcome.
Did Israel fire the first salvo immediately after the end of the Truce on the last day of November 2008 ?
Even then Israel had only responded to the rocket and motar attacks by returning fire to the points of origins of the rocket and motar firing spots, and these were located intentionally by the Hamas leadership in the middle of dense Palestinian living areas.
It is easy to shout "War Crimes" - but wild rhetoric with fiery sights then to blind the abilities to see facts on the ground.
If War Crimes are to be instituted, the Hamas leadership will be the first to be dragged to stand trial - firstly for the illegitimate overthrow of an elected Palestinian Government in the Gaza Strip; secondly for the killing and imprisonment of duly elected officials of the Palestinian Government for the Gaza Strip under President Abbas; and third for the deliberate firing of rockets and motar attacks into Israeli civilian residential areas, schools, and public areas; and fourth for the contravening of the Geneva Codes of War by using clearly designated neutral faclities for the storage of weapons, ammunition and training of personnels that included civilian homes, hospitals, religious sites, schools and others.
Navi Pillay, the UN high commissioner for human rights, singled out the killing this week of up to 30 Palestinians in Zeitoun, south-east of Gaza City, when Israel shelled a house where its troops had told about 110 civilians to take shelter.
Pillay, a former international criminal court judge from South Africa, told the BBC the incident "appears to have all the elements of war crimes". She called for "credible, independent and transparent" investigations into possible violations of humanitarian law.
....
More than 750 Palestinians have died since the start of the Israeli military operation. More than half of Gaza's population are children, and the Palestinian ministry of health said about 42% of the casualties have been children.
Unicef said at least 100 children and minors were killed in the first 10 days of fighting. The Palestinian Centre for Human Rights, which posts staff at hospitals to track casualties, put this number at more than 160."
- UN levels war crimes warning at Israel- http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2009/jan/09/gaza-palestinians-israel-evacuees-zeitoun
My heart bleeds for the innocent lives loss, but it stops bleeding for the hypocritical cries of those who support Hamas deliberate and unprovoked acts of war on the innocent lives of others.
Israel do not necessary need to prove that "might is right" - and is clearly resorting to the Middle-eastern tradition upheld by Islam's conservativism and fundamentalist religious practises in the "Principle of an Eye for an Eye".
Clearly those outside of the Middle-eastern region do not understand nor appreciate nor accept such value systems - does that make anyone in the UN qualified to pass judgment as to what constitute a War Crime ?
It will make you better off as a Singapore to be less involved due to your lop sided understanding of Human Rights that is colored by a lop sided Singapore humanities and value system.
Tell me that you are not one from the same religion of these Palestinians - and perhaps I can begin to understand in your position revealed from your clearly show of skewed neutrality ?
Hamas do not need too much resources to wage an effective media war, as the news chasing reporters are only too eager to enter the war zone to report from the frontlines and to give support to the supposed underdogs.
Unfortunately Israel has blocked off the foreign media from entering Gaza even though a major humanitarian crisis is precipitating in Gaza. I dont think it takes a lot of effort to figure who has the upper hand in the media war.
If as an outsider from that region of war, you can "figure who has the upper hand in the media war " - it already shows that you are out-of-touch with the events on the ground with your biased comments.
Western commentators are more resourceful then your own narrow assumptions, as others who are more knowledgeable of the events are already making shocking statements of their own that ‘Israel losing the media war’
So much for your expert views of the reality on the ground.
How did the oil and gas suddenly appear in the headlines - when decades have slipped by without a squeak of its existence ?
Decades? I already quoted an article to say it was discovered in 2000 and how the rights to the oil field were being negotiated between the Israeli government, the PA and British oil firms. However, since the ruin of the PA, the oil and natural gas was supposed to fall under the ownership of Hamas. Naturally, Israel could not allow that and hence, this MIGHT be one of the reason why Israel has decided to invade Gaza, though they are plenty others.
If the gas and oil exist, why will Hamas allow themselves to be used as Iranian pawns to push Iranian agenda first, and put their own Palestinian future on the back burner ?
After illegally usurping the authority over the Gaza Strip from the legitimately elected government of President Abbas, why did the Hamas leadership indulge themselves in the wasteful acts of aggressions towards Israel - instead of developing their strengths and stabilising their own future by exploiting the oil and gas fields lying in the Gaza ?
With the oil and gas fields lying in abundance in the Gaza Strip - as you have claimed - Hamas would have won the long term strategic political battle over President Abbas PLA.
Clearly the publicity made about Israel's intention to grab the Gaza Strip is nothing more then another speculative propaganda developed by a bankrupt mind that depend on wild imagined events.
When Israel withdraws from the Gaza Strip after completing its various missions to discover and destroy all of Hama's abilities to launch rockets and motars from the Gaza Strip - the speculators will disingeneously develop another propaganda.
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Its sad to see for all of your intelligence , none of you have wisdom.
No wonder Singapore is having a hard time aquiring top quality leaders.Firstly of all, who in this world, wheather justified or not has the right to take away one's life for their own gain?
Israel has the right to oppress...
Hamas has the right to attack....
Ah! Shut Up!If u want to make a difference and show your righteousness, stop bit*ching about history, and instead contribute or at least do something to help aid the victims.
bit*ching about to see whose egos gets tarnish would not improve the world. Why do u need to dig up bones when you dont really doing anything?If u cant help, stop your ranting. No one cares who's right or wrong- on the Gaza plane or among yourselves. People like me just want the victims and innocent to stop dying.
Haha.. and btw i find it amusing of those who support Israel here in Singapore. I mean are u related to jews? or have family who is jewish? what is it in for you?
Your neighbours are muslims is it because of that you can relate to what the israelis are facing?You know who you are.
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Originally posted by Ivixulus:
Its sad to see for all of your intelligence , none of you have wisdom.
No wonder Singapore is having a hard time aquiring top quality leaders.Firstly of all, who in this world, wheather justified or not has the right to take away one's life for their own gain?
Israel has the right to oppress...
Hamas has the right to attack....
Ah! Shut Up!If u want to make a difference and show your righteousness, stop bit*ching about history, and instead contribute or at least do something to help aid the victims.
bit*ching about to see whose egos gets tarnish would not improve the world. Why do u need to dig up bones when you dont really doing anything?If u cant help, stop your ranting. No one cares who's right or wrong- on the Gaza plane or among yourselves. People like me just want the victims and innocent to stop dying.
Haha.. and btw i find it amusing of those who support Israel here in Singapore. I mean are u related to jews? or have family who is jewish? what is it in for you?
Your neighbours are muslims is it because of that you can relate to what the israelis are facing?You know who you are.
For one who complain about bitching and ranting, are you not being hypocritical with your own bitching ?
What can you possibly have done to help with the situation with your added piece ?
If you cannot appreciate what Israel has done for Singapore during the first few months of Singapore's dangerous birth - as a result of the foolish ambitions of our own political leaders - can we expect you to know what the historical ties Singapore has with Israel ?
Why should you instinctively become so defensive in relating the proximity of muslims being Singapore's neighbors - as reasons for the support given to Israel ?
Are you not playing to the stereo-type thinking of Muslims being the oppressed, when none exist ?
Do we need to speculate who are the supporters of Hamas ?
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Originally posted by Ivixulus:
Its sad to see for all of your intelligence , none of you have wisdom.
No wonder Singapore is having a hard time aquiring top quality leaders.Firstly of all, who in this world, wheather justified or not has the right to take away one's life for their own gain?
Israel has the right to oppress...
Hamas has the right to attack....
Ah! Shut Up!If u want to make a difference and show your righteousness, stop bit*ching about history, and instead contribute or at least do something to help aid the victims.
bit*ching about to see whose egos gets tarnish would not improve the world. Why do u need to dig up bones when you dont really doing anything?If u cant help, stop your ranting. No one cares who's right or wrong- on the Gaza plane or among yourselves. People like me just want the victims and innocent to stop dying.
Haha.. and btw i find it amusing of those who support Israel here in Singapore. I mean are u related to jews? or have family who is jewish? what is it in for you?
Your neighbours are muslims is it because of that you can relate to what the israelis are facing?You know who you are.
Are you related to Arabs? Moron!
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Originally posted by Ivixulus:
Its sad to see for all of your intelligence , none of you have wisdom.
No wonder Singapore is having a hard time aquiring top quality leaders.Firstly of all, who in this world, wheather justified or not has the right to take away one's life for their own gain?
Israel has the right to oppress...
Hamas has the right to attack....
Ah! Shut Up!If u want to make a difference and show your righteousness, stop bit*ching about history, and instead contribute or at least do something to help aid the victims.
bit*ching about to see whose egos gets tarnish would not improve the world. Why do u need to dig up bones when you dont really doing anything?If u cant help, stop your ranting. No one cares who's right or wrong- on the Gaza plane or among yourselves. People like me just want the victims and innocent to stop dying.
Haha.. and btw i find it amusing of those who support Israel here in Singapore. I mean are u related to jews? or have family who is jewish? what is it in for you?
Your neighbours are muslims is it because of that you can relate to what the israelis are facing?You know who you are.
It can be clearly seen that you have neither intelligence nor wisdom. Your points are not ony disjointed, a couple are absurd abstracts .
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THE BLOCKADE Israel’s blockade of the strip, with the support of the United States and the European Union, has grown increasingly stringent since Hamas won the Palestinian Legislative Council elections in January 2006.
The politics behind the Blockade.....Is it just from Israeli?
Tuesday, 08 April 2008 ]
Israel has sealed off Gaza from all but vital goods since Hamas seized power there last June, in a bid to halt rocket attacks from the territory and to put pressure on the Islamist-run government.
"We call parties to move urgently and immediately to end the siege and warn of an unprecedented explosion if it continues," Hayya said.
Hamas has been negotiating with Egypt for weeks in a bid to reopen the Rafah crossing, the only gateway to Gaza that bypasses Israel.
Palestinian president Mahmoud Abbas has called for a return to a 2005 agreement in which European Union monitors were stationed at the crossing and Israel monitored it with electronic surveillance.
But Hamas, which seized power after routing forces loyal to Abbas, has rejected any foreign involvement and demanded that Rafah be reopened as an Egyptian-Palestinian crossing.
At a separate press conference Mohammed al-Hindi, a senior leader in the Islamic Jihad movement, echoed Hamas's threat.
"I told our Egyptian brothers that if the present conditions continue there will be an explosion on Egypt, and it will have to choose whether to open the crossing or open fire," he said.
On January 23, Palestinian militants demolished the border fence between Gaza and Egypt, sending hundreds of thousands of Gazans streaming into Egypt to stock up on supplies.
Egyptian and Hamas forces sealed the frontier breach on FebruaryRead some more. In october.
Palestinian President Mahmoud Abbas ruled out talks with Hamas Wednesday and rejected any changes to previous arrangements governing the Gaza-Egypt border that would give a say to his Islamist rivals.
The previous agreements regarding the cotrol over the Gaza borders were struck between the Palestinian Authority, Egypt, Israel, the United States and the European Union,
Hamas, which seized control of Gaza in June after routing Abbas' secular Fatah forces, blasted open Gaza's border fence with Egypt last week in defiance of an Israeli-led blockade, allowing hundreds of thousands of Gazans to pour into Egypt to stock up on goods in short-supply.
"There will be no talks with Hamas unless they comply with the conditions we have put forward to back off their coup, to recognize international legitimacy and to accept new early elections," Abbas said after a meeting with Egyptian President Hosni Mubarak over the crisis on the Gaza border.
Egyptian officials have been pressing Abbas to compromise with the Islamist Hamas movement, which maintains total control of the Gaza Strip.
Hamas officials were also in Cairo Wednesday to meet with senior Egyptian officials, including the influential head of Egypt's intelligence service, Omar Suleiman, to press their case for a role in any future border agreement.
Abbas, however, who is locked in a deadly rivalry with the militant group, has refused any talks with Hamas unless it relinquishes their control of Gaza to his Palestinian AuthorityLet's be Real.... its dirty and urgly. Yes the civilian people are suffering but If Hamas wanted to be A REAL legitimate authority in the Mid East. It has to convince its neighbors.
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Hamas leadership.......?
Published: November 30, 2008
GAZA CITY, Gaza Strip: Hamas police prevented Muslim pilgrims from leaving Gaza Sunday for the annual Islamic pilgrimage because of internal Palestinian squabbling, drawing rare rebukes from Arab countries.
Hamas, the militant Islamic group that rules Gaza, blocked the crossing into Egypt, stranding Palestinians on their way to Mecca in Saudi Arabia. The reason — they got visas from the rival West Bank government led by moderate President Mahmoud Abbas.
The "hajj" pilgrimage is considered the crowning moment in a Muslim believer's life. This year's trek should be completed by Dec. 5, according to Muslim authorities.
But early Sunday morning, black-clad Hamas police blocked the only passenger crossing between Gaza and Egypt. A handful of people waited nearby.
"We are old, tired. We've been waiting all our lives (for the pilgrimage)," said Umm Jihad, an elderly woman.
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Hamsa killing fellow Arabs...allah akbar !
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Originally posted by Atobe:
What did they win in 2006 ?
Did they win a political war or even a military one over Israel ?
Instead, all they did was to split the Palestinian Community into two - and weakening the Palestinian causes by their divisive acts that saw their illegally usurping the authority from the legitimately elected Palestinian Government of President Abbas.
All that the Palestinian had achieved by remaining in the Hamas controlled Gaza Strip was to make themselves into a pariah state that is ignored even by the other Arab States of Egypt, Syria, Jordan, Lebanon, Saudi Arabia, Libya, Morroco, Iraq, and all other World Communities that support the Arab cause.
What victory are you dreaming about that occurred in 2006 ?
For one who claim others for refusing to look at information that is contrary to pre-conceptions - you seem to be indulging in double standards that begin with you depending on propaganda for your facts.
Is it not obvious from your circular arguments based on flawed logic thinking - that you are fixated to the Hamas cause and with you being affected by the Palestinian casualties more then by the Principles of the Issues themselves ?
Surely, we can understand your position in not see the obvious, as we can see that you are more indulgent in Hamas agenda despite your claims to neutrality.
Even if Hamas should take heed of the advance warning made by Israel, it will already serve Israeli objectives in neutralising Hamas positions - by emptying Hamas personnels and destroying the infrastructure.
The scoreboard surely shows the unpreparedness of the Hamas leadership to take advance construction of civilian bomb shelters, stocking of food, water and energy, and training for their civilians to respond to warning systems.
The scoreboard shows the irresponsibility of the Hamas leadership to declare that rocket attacks will resume at the end of the last negotiated truce period, even when throughout the truce period there were no efforts to prepare the Palestinians for this expected outcome.
Did Israel fire the first salvo immediately after the end of the Truce on the last day of November 2008 ?
Even then Israel had only responded to the rocket and motar attacks by returning fire to the points of origins of the rocket and motar firing spots, and these were located intentionally by the Hamas leadership in the middle of dense Palestinian living areas.
It is easy to shout "War Crimes" - but wild rhetoric with fiery sights then to blind the abilities to see facts on the ground.
If War Crimes are to be instituted, the Hamas leadership will be the first to be dragged to stand trial - firstly for the illegitimate overthrow of an elected Palestinian Government in the Gaza Strip; secondly for the killing and imprisonment of duly elected officials of the Palestinian Government for the Gaza Strip under President Abbas; and third for the deliberate firing of rockets and motar attacks into Israeli civilian residential areas, schools, and public areas; and fourth for the contravening of the Geneva Codes of War by using clearly designated neutral faclities for the storage of weapons, ammunition and training of personnels that included civilian homes, hospitals, religious sites, schools and others.
My heart bleeds for the innocent lives loss, but it stops bleeding for the hypocritical cries of those who support Hamas deliberate and unprovoked acts of war on the innocent lives of others.
Israel do not necessary need to prove that "might is right" - and is clearly resorting to the Middle-eastern tradition upheld by Islam's conservativism and fundamentalist religious practises in the "Principle of an Eye for an Eye".
Clearly those outside of the Middle-eastern region do not understand nor appreciate nor accept such value systems - does that make anyone in the UN qualified to pass judgment as to what constitute a War Crime ?
It will make you better off as a Singapore to be less involved due to your lop sided understanding of Human Rights that is colored by a lop sided Singapore humanities and value system.
Tell me that you are not one from the same religion of these Palestinians - and perhaps I can begin to understand in your position revealed from your clearly show of skewed neutrality ?
If as an outsider from that region of war, you can "figure who has the upper hand in the media war " - it already shows that you are out-of-touch with the events on the ground with your biased comments.
Western commentators are more resourceful then your own narrow assumptions, as others who are more knowledgeable of the events are already making shocking statements of their own that ‘Israel losing the media war’
So much for your expert views of the reality on the ground.
If the gas and oil exist, why will Hamas allow themselves to be used as Iranian pawns to push Iranian agenda first, and put their own Palestinian future on the back burner ?
After illegally usurping the authority over the Gaza Strip from the legitimately elected government of President Abbas, why did the Hamas leadership indulge themselves in the wasteful acts of aggressions towards Israel - instead of developing their strengths and stabilising their own future by exploiting the oil and gas fields lying in the Gaza ?
With the oil and gas fields lying in abundance in the Gaza Strip - as you have claimed - Hamas would have won the long term strategic political battle over President Abbas PLA.
Clearly the publicity made about Israel's intention to grab the Gaza Strip is nothing more then another speculative propaganda developed by a bankrupt mind that depend on wild imagined events.
When Israel withdraws from the Gaza Strip after completing its various missions to discover and destroy all of Hama's abilities to launch rockets and motars from the Gaza Strip - the speculators will disingeneously develop another propaganda.
What did they win in 2006 ?
Did they win a political war or even a military one over Israel ?
They won the political mandate from the people of Gaza. It is Israel and Fatah who have refused to recognise the legitimately elected government of the Palestinians.
For one who claim others for refusing to look at information that is contrary to pre-conceptions - you seem to be indulging in double standards that begin with you depending on propaganda for your facts.
As I pointed out, "propaganda" is simply "an organised effort to promote a particular belief or doctrine" (How many times has it been?). Of course I would depend on propaganda. You don't? You depend on a blank intellect (does that even exist?) to make a judgement?
Even then Israel had only responded to the rocket and motar attacks by returning fire to the points of origins of the rocket and motar firing spots, and these were located intentionally by the Hamas leadership in the middle of dense Palestinian living areas.
So its the "Hamas always returns to the scene of the crime" logic? Does the Israeli military thinks? If Hamas fires a rocket from somewhere, would they even stay in that same place? All this strategic wisdom just gets hundreds of civilians killed.
It is easy to shout "War Crimes" - but wild rhetoric with fiery sights then to blind the abilities to see facts on the ground.
If War Crimes are to be instituted, the Hamas leadership will be the first to be dragged to stand trial - firstly for the illegitimate overthrow of an elected Palestinian Government in the Gaza Strip; secondly for the killing and imprisonment of duly elected officials of the Palestinian Government for the Gaza Strip under President Abbas; and third for the deliberate firing of rockets and motar attacks into Israeli civilian residential areas, schools, and public areas; and fourth for the contravening of the Geneva Codes of War by using clearly designated neutral faclities for the storage of weapons, ammunition and training of personnels that included civilian homes, hospitals, religious sites, schools and others.
My heart bleeds for the innocent lives loss, but it stops bleeding for the hypocritical cries of those who support Hamas deliberate and unprovoked acts of war on the innocent lives of others.
Israel do not necessary need to prove that "might is right" - and is clearly resorting to the Middle-eastern tradition upheld by Islam's conservativism and fundamentalist religious practises in the "Principle of an Eye for an Eye".
Clearly those outside of the Middle-eastern region do not understand nor appreciate nor accept such value systems - does that make anyone in the UN qualified to pass judgment as to what constitute a War Crime ?
It will make you better off as a Singapore to be less involved due to your lop sided understanding of Human Rights that is colored by a lop sided Singapore humanities and value system.
Aren't you a Singaporean who have passed through the same education system? Are you saying that you're more qualified than the UN to make a judgement on "war crimes". If that is the case, say so.
There is no doubt that Hamas has committed war crimes, though not for overthrowing the Fatah government through a legitimate election, but for firing rockets into Israel. But in the same breath, Israel has also breached that same Geneva Conventions which you quoted.
"Israel signed the Geneva Convention on 7th June, 1951. For the Convention to have any value, Israel must be charged and made to stand trial in The Hague under the following sections.
Article 3 states "that even where there is not a conflict of international character the parties must as a minimum adhere to minimal protections described as: noncombatants, members of armed forces who have laid down their arms, and combatants who are hors de combat (out of the fight) due to wounds, detention, or any other cause shall in all circumstances be treated humanely, with the following prohibitions:
(a) Violence to life and person, in particular murder of all kinds, mutilation, cruel treatment and torture;
(b) Taking of hostages;
(c) Outrages upon personal dignity, in particular humiliating and degrading treatment
(d) the passing of sentences and the carrying out of executions without previous judgment pronounced by a regularly constituted court, affording all the judicial guarantees which are recognized as indispensable by civilized peoples."
(a) Bombing of police stations, schools, ambulances, power plants and hospitals are designed to murder civilians indiscriminately.
(b) Israel's routine abduction of men, women and children in to Israeli detention camps. The number of such prisoners is 700,000 since 1967.
(c) Israeli soldiers routinely prevent pregnant women from receiving proper hospital treatment resulting in infant mortality, miscarriages and death.
(d) Israel's "targeted killings" of Hamas leaders constitutes murder.
Article 33 states "No protected person may be punished for an offence he or she has not personally committed. Collective penalties and likewise all measures of intimidation or of terrorism are prohibited.
Pillage is prohibited.
Reprisals against protected persons and their property are prohibited."
The unrelenting and merciless collective punishment of the Palestinian people has taken the form of..
(a) Destruction of Palestinian dwellings to make room for illegal settlements
(b) Destruction of Olive groves on Palestinian land and its resultant decimation of livelihoods.
(c) Bombing of a Palestinian power station collectively punished all Gaza inhabitants. Basic sanitation works were severely impacted.
(d) Blockading of medical supplies and food which left Palestinians eating grass for sustenance.
Israel has had resolutions passed against it since 1947 without any real enforcement. The sequence of resolutions below illustrates the complete lack of commitment of the United Nations to force Israel to comply with anything..
Resolution 636: " ... 'deeply regrets' Israeli deportation of Palestinian civilians.
Resolution 641: "... 'Deplores' Israel's continuing deportation of Palestinians.
Resolution 672: "... 'Condemns' Israel for "violence against Palestinians" at the Haram al-Sharif/Temple Mount.
Resolution 673: "... 'Deplores' Israel's refusal to cooperate with the United Nations.
Resolution 681: "... 'Deplores' Israel's resumption of the deportation of Palestinians.
Resolution 694: "... 'Deplores' Israel's deportation of Palestinians and calls on it to ensure their safe and immediate return.
Resolution 726: " ... 'strongly condemns' Israel's deportation of Palestinians.
Resolution 799: ". . . 'Strongly condemns' Israel's deportation of 413 Palestinians and calls for their immediate return."- Israel's War Crimes and "Change we can believe in"
If war crimes are really prosecuted, then the entire Bush Administration would have already been sentenced for their 8 years of war crimes, as well as the Clinton Administration, for their "humanitarian bombing" aka balkanisation of Yugoslavia and putting into power the mafia government of Hashim Thaci.
Obviously, might is right.
After illegally usurping the authority over the Gaza Strip from the legitimately elected government of President Abbas, why did the Hamas leadership indulge themselves in the wasteful acts of aggressions towards Israel - instead of developing their strengths and stabilising their own future by exploiting the oil and gas fields lying in the Gaza ?
Did Israel even accord the Gazan government the same level of sovereignty it enjoys?
Clearly the publicity made about Israel's intention to grab the Gaza Strip is nothing more then another speculative propaganda developed by a bankrupt mind that depend on wild imagined events.
When Israel withdraws from the Gaza Strip after completing its various missions to discover and destroy all of Hama's abilities to launch rockets and motars from the Gaza Strip - the speculators will disingeneously develop another propaganda.
Obviously I cannot argue against your superb ESP abilities.
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Originally posted by googoomuck:
Hamsa killing fellow Arabs...allah akbar !
If it is anti-Islam sentiments, we all know we can always count on you.
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Originally posted by freedomclub:
If it is anti-Islam sentiments, we all know we can always count on you.
Produced and directed by the Arabs themselves are also anti-Islam? You can't tell from the music and language?
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Could someone tell me whether those journalists were firing rockets together with Hamas?
Gaza Update: Journalists The New Targets in Israeli Attacks
By: Siun Saturday January 10, 2009 7:00 pm
The Israeli effort to control access to news from Gaza is escalating along with its military actions. While the Israeli Supreme Court ordered the government to allow eight reporters to cross into Gaza, that order has not been enforced. Now media workers who were already in Gaza have become targets of military attacks.
The International Federation of Journalists (IFJ) which represents over 600,000 journalists in 123 countries worldwide is calling on the world’s media to protest the Israeli blockade on the media.
The IFJ call comes as another Palestinian journalist was reported killed - the fourth victim of recent Israeli military action in Gaza. Eyhab Al Wahidi, who worked as a cameraman for the Palestinian Broadcast Corporation in Gaza, was killed with his wife and mother-in-law yesterday when Israeli troops shelled their home in Gaza city. The family's children were injured.
Describing the situation where the Israelis are holding outside reporters on the border – where they are fed Israeli official PR and photo ops (including all those shots of White Phosphorous raining down on the people of Gaza which form the backdrop of so many reports yet go unnoticed), Aidan White, IFJ General Secretary says:
"There is a cynical attempt to ensure that media tell the story from the Israeli side only," said White. "The truth cannot be told unless journalists are free to move, to talk with everyone involved and to see with their own eyes what is happening on the ground…"
The Committee to Protect Journalists recounts the attack on the building housing most of the broadcast media that remains in Gaza:
at least one journalist was injured in an Israeli air strike while filing a report from the roof of the al-Johara Tower, an eight-story building in Gaza City which houses more than 20 international news organizations, according to multiple news outlets...
"The Israeli military knows the location of TV facilities houses and news bureaus in Gaza. It is simply unacceptable that working journalists and their offices should come under fire in this way," said CPJ Deputy Director Robert Mahoney. "Journalists enjoy protections under international law in military campaigns such as the one in Gaza. Israel must cease its attacks on the media immediately."
The Al Johara Tower housed such media as “Palestine Media Company, Dubai TV, Al-Alam TV (Iran), Turkish satellite television, the Chinese satellite network, the Lebanon Broadcasting Company (LBC) and Kuwait TV." The video report above is PressTV's coverage from the Tower building immediately after the attack.
The protest against the media treatment is global – a statement demanding access to Gaza from Reporters without Borders has been signed by "Germany's Der Spiegel, El Mundo and El Pais in Spain, U.S. networks ABC, CBS and CNN, France's Le Figaro newspaper and RTL radio, the U.K.'s Sky News and Guardian newspaper, and pan-Arab channel Al Jazeera.
Sameh Habeeb, a photojournalist blogging at Gaza Today has written of the extreme danger of reporting from Gaza – he has received threats telling him to stop sending out his news briefings and today writes:
Most of the Gaza Strip plunges into deep darkness since the start of this war. I find several hardships to send out this report due to power problem. Today, a rocket targeted my uncle's house. My house got several splinters and rocket shrapnel. Thanks to God, we all safe but I don't know what will happen next. I live east of Gaza, Toffah area, were artillery shells rained down every single moment.
Sameh also reports of another journalist killed:
A Palestinian journalist, Ala' Mortaja, killed in Israeli airstrike targeted his house in Al Zaytoun quarter. His mother was wounded and she is in critical conditions at the moment.
Ala’ Mortaja “worked as a radio broadcast personality in Gaza on a local radio show. Medical sources confirmed Ala’s death, and said his mother had her arms amputated after the attack”
For a quite personal account of the experiences of Gazan reporters, AP correspondent for Gaza, Ibrahim Barzak’s essay is heartbreaking and deserves to be widely read.
As the Israeli plans to escalate their attacks are announced it is even more critical that the world’s reporters are there to let us know what is really going on. Of course, given the actions of the IDF so far – from bombing UN schools to killing medics and aid workers, it’s not surprising they really don’t want us to know.
----------------------------
Frontline Club, the independent media center in London, has much more which can be read here including:
Frontline Club members Marie Colvin and Jeremy Bowen discuss their frustation sitting at the border in Gaza on the BBC Radio Media Show podcast. Further coverage of the media’s role, or lack thereof, in Gaza take a look at Frontline blogger Daniel Bennett’s most recent posts. And listen to journalist Chris Hedges discuss the media ban on IndyMedia radio in the U.S.
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There 's already adequate coverage in Sgforums, with one side inflating Palestinian Arab sufferings and the other side making it clear that IDF is responding to Hamas' rocket attacks into Israel.
Besides, the IDF do not want to sacrifice their lives to save foreign journalists.
In Gaza, anyone with a camera is fair game, especially the ones with extra long zoom lenses. They can be mistaken as weapons.
Even Arabs are not safe from Arabs.
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I'd be a real crazy journalist to try to enter the Gaza while bombs and missiles are still raining down from the air. There is little a pilot flying a UAV or fighter can do to identify a journalist through the lenses of a targeting pod. They might really end up in harm's way.
I feel it is wrong to complicate the Palestinian issue with religion. The Israelis are not waging a war against Islam. They are fighting Terrorists that are shooting rockets into their country. I am lean towards the Israeli understanding of the situation on logic; I would be pissed when someone lobs rockets at my civilians and I will shoot back.
The Palestinian struggle is one of Nationalism, not religion. Only those with devious intentions try to complicate such matters.
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The Arab league and other international communities spend the last 2 decade to negociate and help to facilitate 2 states Palestine and Israel. I am not sure they want to start a process to negociate a 3rd state. Gaza for the Hamas.
I do not believe you can have West Bank, Israel and Gaza as 3 seperate political entity.
I also think that Hamas has distracted the entire issue of israel fully compliance from the Peace Road Map including the withdrawer of ilegal settlement along the west bank.
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Originally posted by Atobe:
Sick reality ?
The sick reality is that Hamas is determined to see to the destruction of Israel - knowing that it has the support of Iran.
The population of Israel is 7,112,359 (2008) - what can we make out of your speculative deduction that 90% are infected in your assumed sick reality ?
Yes. Hamas did reject the UN administered truce.
Reason: Not interested as it was not consulted and the truce fails to meet its requirements.
Which raison d etre is more sensible?
Do we need to speculate about your position ?
Was Hamas rejection simply due to the fact that it was not consulted, or was it due to the fact that the resolution passed by the UN Security Council had also required a halt to Hamas' weapon smuggling - even as it also demanded the borders to be open to allow humanitarian aid to get through to the Palestinians in Gaza ?
Israel's rejection was not only about an external body imposing their will on their sovereign right to protect themselves, but as Israel knows the Hamas mentality better than anyone outside of their neighborhood.
Israel knows that Hamas will not honor any ceasefire, and will use the lull in warfare to restock their rockets, weapons, and ammunition.
Can the Israeli and Palestinian not live together, or is the animosity, suspicion, fear, hatred, and anger due to the politics of the Middle-east that are designed not for any win-win outcome ?
Israeli and Palestinian Formula for Peace show that the two communities can live together if the dark political agenda of Hamas can be dropped.
This peace prospect was possible as shown by the other larger numbers of Palestinians living on the West Bank and led by President Abbas - all are willing to make the two state option a reality until it was torpedoed by Hamas unilateral and illegal declaration of a breakaway state of its own in the Gaza Strip.
Until this day, none of the Middle-eastern Arab State has accepted nor recognised Hamas authority nor legitimacy, and its continued existence - with the support from Iran - is the cause for the deaths and misery of the Palestinians in the Gaza Strip, and is the single threat to peace between Israel and the Palestinians.
I reiterate my position that the SICK REALITY encompass the Israeli killings of innocent lives as well as any individuals supporting or sympathising with these malevolent killings. Its bewildering any rhetoric is able to surpass the mere extent of the carnage happening now.
The Jewish majority in Israel wholly supports the war since they are not bearing the brunt of the consequences. Remember, a leading causation for this war is that waging war on Hamas would bring about popular opinion among the masses. Secondly, it is to restore the shattered pride of the Zionists from the debacle of the 2006 Hizbullah war.
The Israelis have a much lower probability of victimization by Hamas rockets vis a vis the Gazans. In the event an organized poll surveying the halting to this war by both sides, I reckon Gazans would give its mandate overwhelmingly, judging from random interviews from those affected.
My question is, if the Israeli majority are in the shoes of the Gazans do you think 90% will support the war?
"Israel knows that Hamas will not honor any ceasefire, and will use the lull in warfare to restock their rockets, weapons, and ammunition." The most recent 3 hour ceasefire provides an insight to any Israeli honour of any agreement. The Israeli military killed a couple of U.N contractors during the ceasefire. At the very least, if they had killed Hamas combatants, they would still retain a point of contention. The dishonouring of the initial 6 month truce, of course, was blamed on both sides. However, there exists no independent body to verify both allegations.The seeds of hatred and animosity have been sown too deep, judging from past history, however blatant Israeli massacre of civilian Palestinians only diminishes any faint hope for long lasting peace.Hamas is regarded as a legitimate political force in Palestine by Middle Eastern nations. As far as Europe, Norway gives Hamas due recognition. UK and Australia recognizes Hamas's political wing albeit lists its military wing as a terrorist organization. However, Palestine is still not a state as yet. Thus both Hamas and Fatah are not legitimately state actors.I beg to differ that Hamas is the single threat to peace btwn the Israelis and Palestinians. It is the penultimate threat to peace between them. -
Originally posted by mancha:
People will be selective. Some blatantly selective.
When someone else's report or article expresses opinion that is in line their sentiments, it will be touted as authoritative statements that support their views. Any report or article that is critical of their views will be touted as foreign trash.
When the omniscience [archangel] ask you "What do you think of the Isreal/Palestine conflict?" The subject is not important, as the emphasis is on the "you".
Are you going to produce UN reports, and other peoples' opinion?
Read them, digest them, and please come up with your own opinion and assessment.
You are not the product of one infusion of information, but the sum total of all the information gathered through the years. Therefore it is biasness on your part that make you select information agreeable to you, and label information otherwise as that of staple foreign lies.
***
My Islamophobia is garnered through the years of observation of Muslim neighbours, friends, colleagues, countries, governments and news reports. And not through staple American reports. Individually I have no quarrel with Muslims, but collectively I do not trust the "jemmiah islamiah". They are evil, like the communist of the Stalin, Mao era. The grassroots are the sheeps, it is the higher hierachy that are wolf in sheep clothings. Everywhere, when a Muslim community is small, they behave peacefully, but when they grow, they become belligerent, discriminatory, and oppressive and imperialistic contrary to the tenets promised in their theology. Their defence is justification, divine justification. Never once acknowledging that it is their yokel mentality that is taken advantage of by those who have political agenda through religion. Belief, as that is what relligion actually is, is a strong motivational force.
Can there be peace between Isreal and Palestine? My opinion is no. Because the of the hijacked religion of the majority of the Palestinian people. Why is the religion of peace unable to procure peace in the Middle East? Simple, I see it is because there is great avenue for political hatred in the faith. This explosive force is acknowledged by the political leaders of our country, and of those around us.
My personal opinion expressed here could invite enforcement actions, therefore the qualification "my personal opinion". And believe me, I am holding back.
Your observation is inciteful. However, allow me to analyze it from an intellectual perspective. What underlies the basis of your judgement? No mention of viable observational tools follow your baseless allegations. In addtion, your comprehension of history is grossly inadequate. Islam as a larger entity has proven during the era prior to the European Renaissance that minority groups are treated with a much higher degree of dignity vis a vis the Romans or Crusaders.
Reading on your initial paragraph, I understand what substantiates your blatant ignorance. You base your claims upon personal opinions and assessments which severely lack any justifications of intellectual discourse.
Every religion has its share of extremists as history and proper reasearch would enlighten you. Any civilization has harboured and implemented imperialstic tendencies on mankind, whether it is for the good or better, history has and will judge.
Why can never be peace: Because of the unfortunate presence of individuals like yourself who attempt to promote anarchy and animosity through a mint coat of political correct-ness and feeble scholarlistic attempts.
In the event you are seeking intellectual discourse or unintellectual resentment, you are most welcome to challenge me to a fruitful debate in person.
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mancha,
Your observation is inciteful. However, allow me to analyze it from an intellectual perspective. What underlies the basis of your judgement? No mention of viable observational tools follow your baseless allegations. In addtion, your comprehension of history is grossly inadequate. Islam as a larger entity has proven during the era prior to the European Renaissance that minority groups are treated with a much higher degree of dignity vis a vis the Romans or Crusaders.
Reading on your initial paragraph, I understand what substantiates your blatant ignorance. You base your claims upon personal opinions and assessments which severely lack any justifications of intellectual discourse.
Every religion has its share of extremists as history and proper reasearch would enlighten you. Any civilization has harboured and implemented imperialstic tendencies on mankind, whether it is for the good or better, history has and will judge.
Why can never be peace: Because of the unfortunate presence of individuals like yourself who attempt to promote anarchy and animosity through a mint coat of political correct-ness and feeble scholarlistic attempts.
In the event you are seeking intellectual discourse or unintellectual resentment, you are most welcome to challenge me to a fruitful debate in person.
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So so sad... now more than 900 deaths. latest news is that Israel does not want to deny that they used **i can't rmb what it is*.. Yet if u watch the news, it is the bomb which exploded mid air and cover a vast area, it will then have a white smoke/gas on its tail. Smtg like flare. And so, that white smoke contain phosphurous and is sensitive to the skin. it is ban to be used in such way as it may affect civilians..
Maybe journalists were killed becos of ^^..
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Originally posted by Jarhum:
mancha,
Your observation is inciteful. However, allow me to analyze it from an intellectual perspective. What underlies the basis of your judgement? No mention of viable observational tools follow your baseless allegations. In addtion, your comprehension of history is grossly inadequate. Islam as a larger entity has proven during the era prior to the European Renaissance that minority groups are treated with a much higher degree of dignity vis a vis the Romans or Crusaders.
Reading on your initial paragraph, I understand what substantiates your blatant ignorance. You base your claims upon personal opinions and assessments which severely lack any justifications of intellectual discourse.
Every religion has its share of extremists as history and proper reasearch would enlighten you. Any civilization has harboured and implemented imperialstic tendencies on mankind, whether it is for the good or better, history has and will judge.
Why can never be peace: Because of the unfortunate presence of individuals like yourself who attempt to promote anarchy and animosity through a mint coat of political correct-ness and feeble scholarlistic attempts.
In the event you are seeking intellectual discourse or unintellectual resentment, you are most welcome to challenge me to a fruitful debate in person.
Jarhum,
You will be surprised at how many people actually share Mancha's "Personal Opinion". This has got nothing to do with History, rather the global actions of Islamist in recent years. Understanding history cannot change how global citizens perceive Islamic extremists.
Also, I would like to remind you that.. many do not study the history of Islam. So really, why are you even appalled that most people do not know the History of Islam ?
If you are not a doctor.. do you know as much as a doctor does ? When you go to a doctor, should the doctor be appalled and reprimand you about your ignorance to your health condition ??
C'mon Jarhum, despite your claim to be a Historian/Political scientist, you severely lack one very important human aspect. Your Common Sense.
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Originally posted by jojobeach:
Jarhum,
You will be surprised at how many people actually share Mancha's "Personal Opinion". This has got nothing to do with History, rather the global actions of Islamist in recent years.
I would like to remind you that.. many do not study the history of Islam. So really, why are you even appalled that most people do not know the History of Islam ?
If you are not a doctor.. do you know as much as a doctor does ? When you go to a doctor, should the doctor be appalled and reprimand you about your ignorance to your health condition ??
C'mon Jarhum, despite your claim to be a Historian/Political scientist, you severely lack one very important human aspect. Your Common Sense.
Common sense
As of 12 Jan 2009*
Israeli dead: 13 + 8 (This is the dead from the rocket/mortar attacks in 2008, information taken from wikiepdia)
Palestinians: 905
Common sense would tell me this is an extremely disproportional result. When you ask someone to use the term common sense, you are assuming that everyone is going to look at the stituation with the same value system you have.
Truthfully, i agree with you this has nothing to do with History. But the people who believe Israel is justified in this discussion are the ones pulling out all the history, siting it as truth that the Israelis are only partipating in self defense, not wholesale slaughter.
Jarhum is merely correcting the history that they are quoting.
Common sense also tells me BOTH sides must have done something wrong when two people are fighting.
Common sense tells me that i wouldn't shoot rockets at the houses of others if i feel there is no injustice involved.
Common sense tells me a death ratio of 1:45(rounded up) is not all a reasonable response, no matter how justifiable.
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jojobch,
Mancha's 'personal opinion' is not a mere commentary on the actions of terrorists who are Muslims by name but rather an attack on the Muslim community as a whole which is most certainly tantamount to an act of sedition. I am sorry you perceive the writer's opinion wrongly. Allow me to quote:
"but collectively I do not trust the "jemmiah islamiah". They are evil.
"Everywhere, when a Muslim community is small, they behave peacefully, but when they grow, they become belligerent, discriminatory, and oppressive and imperialistic contrary to the tenets promised in their theology."
This statement is not associated to terrorists act by al-qaeda or JI for they are of the minority few. The acts of this people who comprise of a minute proportion of the larger muslim world are condoned by the larger muslim community. However, this renegade asserts that the larger Muslim community is as such.
I am not appalled at an individuals ignorance of Islam or its history but rather appalled towards baseless assertion which contradicts history or whichever subject matter which concerns it.
The moral of the story is, If you are not well informed with regards to a certain topic, refrain from making wild, asserting statements which may result in widespread consequences.
Your incapacity to comprehend with simple assertions baffles me. Your constant referrence to analogies reflect your inability for full understanding.
Let me put acroos this point in your own words, " If i'm a doctor I would not reprimand or be appalled with a patient for his ignorance about his health condition but rather his odesity to argue with baseless and unfounded as well as even contradictory statements with someone who has exercised due dilligence on the topic."
If you really think I lack COMMON SENSE, you are most welcome to challenge me to a discussion or debate. This is the second time I have made this invitation which you have avoided.
If I were you, I rather distant myself from Mancha's "Personal Opinion"