Israel hits Palestine again while West Cheers Them On
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Originally posted by MyNameisNas:
So so sad... now more than 900 deaths. latest news is that Israel does not want to deny that they used **i can't rmb what it is*.. Yet if u watch the news, it is the bomb which exploded mid air and cover a vast area, it will then have a white smoke/gas on its tail. Smtg like flare. And so, that white smoke contain phosphurous and is sensitive to the skin. it is ban to be used in such way as it may affect civilians..
Maybe journalists were killed becos of ^^..
It certainly is horrendous. The casualties are mounting and yet Hamas is continually defying calls for truce and yet continue to hide amongst civilians to raise the death toll further, with no regards to palestinians whom are but 'sacrifices' in their idealogy to further wipe out an ethnic group!
What is 'disportionate' when each life is precious to their loved ones? Israel is willing to stop. But Hamas is dead set on killing every jew and infidel in this world, even sacrificing fellow palestinians!
How long more are the muslims in our world going to remain silent and not condemn Hamas, and call them to stop?
How many more innocent palestinians dead and the tarnishing of their peaceful religion twisted to allow genocide in this age will then the muslims demand for the heads of Hamas?
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90% of all current conflicts in the world involve Arabs/Muslims.
Why are they chosen to be the 'oppressed' ones?
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Originally posted by googoomuck:
90% of all current conflicts in the world involve Arabs/Muslims.
Why are they chosen to be the 'oppressed' ones?
90%? I am extremely curious where did you derive that figure from? -
Originally posted by Jarhum:
90%? I am extremely curious where did you derive that figure from?Really?
Southern Philippines
Kashmir
Chechnya
Chad
Eritrea
Ethiopia
Somalia
Algeria
Morocco
Mauritania
Balochistan
Pakistan
Nigeria
South Thailand
Sudan
Mali
Niger
Xinjiang, China
Countries that went boom with suicide bombings are not listed here.
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Originally posted by googoomuck:
Really?
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Southern Philippines
Kashmir
Chechnya
Chad
Eritrea
Ethiopia
Somalia
Algeria
Morocco
Mauritania
Balochistan
Pakistan
Nigeria
South Thailand
Sudan
Mali
Niger
Xinjiang, China
<!--[if !supportEmptyParas]-->
Countries that went boom with suicide bombings are not listed here.
That is 13 nations. Assuming simple calculations, the number of nation states in the world would be approximately 15. I believe there a more than 15 nation states in the entire world. More nations are experiecing some sort of political, racial, ideological, religious, territorial conflicts. This is not the arena for you to exhibit hatred, prejudice or racism. I advise you to stop your pathetic attempts to portray arabs or muslims in the negative light especially when you employ generalised, unsupported and false statments to profess your despicable sentiments. Even if you insist, do it in a smarter way. As I mentioned before, it makes you appear utterly dumb. Or are you? -
Originally posted by Jarhum:
That is 13 nations. Assuming simple calculations, the number of nation states in the world would be approximately 15. I believe there a more than 15 nation states in the entire world. More nations are experiecing some sort of political, racial, ideological, religious, territorial conflicts. This is not the arena for you to exhibit hatred, prejudice or racism. I advise you to stop your pathetic attempts to portray arabs or muslims in the negative light especially when you employ generalised, unsupported and false statments to profess your despicable sentiments. Even if you insist, do it in a smarter way. As I mentioned before, it makes you appear utterly dumb. Or are you?You nincompoop!
I say current conflicts. The list is not complete. I can add on many more countries involved in conflicts in the last 100 years, either by Muslims against others or Muslims against Muslims. That does not include countries that have experienced terrorist bombings.
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Originally posted by Stevenson101:
Common sense
As of 12 Jan 2009*
Israeli dead: 13 + 8 (This is the dead from the rocket/mortar attacks in 2008, information taken from wikiepdia)
Palestinians: 905
Common sense would tell me this is an extremely disproportional result. When you ask someone to use the term common sense, you are assuming that everyone is going to look at the stituation with the same value system you have.
Truthfully, i agree with you this has nothing to do with History. But the people who believe Israel is justified in this discussion are the ones pulling out all the history, siting it as truth that the Israelis are only partipating in self defense, not wholesale slaughter.
Jarhum is merely correcting the history that they are quoting.
Common sense also tells me BOTH sides must have done something wrong when two people are fighting.
Common sense tells me that i wouldn't shoot rockets at the houses of others if i feel there is no injustice involved.
Common sense tells me a death ratio of 1:45(rounded up) is not all a reasonable response, no matter how justifiable.
Stevenson,
Your common sense is also as appalling. No really.
So common sense tells you it's ok to shoot rockets into your neighbour's backyard because they bar you from entering their house ???? hhahahahahh!!!
Look at what HAMAS is doing ?
HAMAS wants the Palestinians to DIE.
If HAMAS really cares about the Palestinians.. they will not hide among the civilians.
They will be fighting the war at the borders instead of running into the crowds of women and children and innocent men like a bunch of COWARDS.
HAMAS would have stopped their nonsense knowing so many of their OWN people are suffering. Do they stop ?? NO. They claim they are winning the war !!!
What kind of crap is HAMAS doing ????
Look at world war 2. The Japanese sustained a huge loss after Hiroshima. Do they keep on fighting ? NO. They surrender !!!
Will HAMAS surrender ? Perhaps not.. because to HAMAS, 900+ Palestinian dead is to them only small price to pay for their 75 virgins.
All HAMAS needs to do is step down.. agree to a ceasefire. Are they doing it ? NO.
If the muslim community really cares about their own brothers and sisters in religion. Then they should be protesting for HAMAS to step down .
Instead.. they protests against Israel. They protests against the west.
I really don't understand what they are thinking.
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Originally posted by Jarhum:
jojobch,
Mancha's 'personal opinion' is not a mere commentary on the actions of terrorists who are Muslims by name but rather an attack on the Muslim community as a whole which is most certainly tantamount to an act of sedition. I am sorry you perceive the writer's opinion wrongly. Allow me to quote:
"but collectively I do not trust the "jemmiah islamiah". They are evil.
"Everywhere, when a Muslim community is small, they behave peacefully, but when they grow, they become belligerent, discriminatory, and oppressive and imperialistic contrary to the tenets promised in their theology."
This statement is not associated to terrorists act by al-qaeda or JI for they are of the minority few. The acts of this people who comprise of a minute proportion of the larger muslim world are condoned by the larger muslim community. However, this renegade asserts that the larger Muslim community is as such.
I am not appalled at an individuals ignorance of Islam or its history but rather appalled towards baseless assertion which contradicts history or whichever subject matter which concerns it.
The moral of the story is, If you are not well informed with regards to a certain topic, refrain from making wild, asserting statements which may result in widespread consequences.
Your incapacity to comprehend with simple assertions baffles me. Your constant referrence to analogies reflect your inability for full understanding.
Let me put acroos this point in your own words, " If i'm a doctor I would not reprimand or be appalled with a patient for his ignorance about his health condition but rather his odesity to argue with baseless and unfounded as well as even contradictory statements with someone who has exercised due dilligence on the topic."
If you really think I lack COMMON SENSE, you are most welcome to challenge me to a discussion or debate. This is the second time I have made this invitation which you have avoided.
If I were you, I rather distant myself from Mancha's "Personal Opinion"
Ok Jarhum, so what exactly is your point ? Really. Hhahahahahh !!!
My "constant referrence to analogies" is simply to make everything SIMPLE enough so people like you who likes to complicate things gets to understand it in very SIMPLE terms. Gettit ?
You keep saying we don't understand muslim history... ok ok .. so we don't. Now what ?
Will understanding Islam's history change our perceptions ?
Will understanding Islam's history .. turn us against our common sense ?
Will understanding Islam's history.. makes us hate the jews more and be more sympathetic towards the Islamic extremists more ?
I don't know Jarhum. YOU tell me. I'm listening.
By the way Jarhum.. this is a discussion forum. What's there to challenge? And what is it you want to challenge ???? You want to challenge me to a hand to hand combat duel ??? Or you want to use your mind force against mine aka star wars style ???hahahahahh... too funny !
If you win.. you get to write a letter to tell HAMAS to dissapear from Gaza so the Gazans may have peace. If you lose.. I buy you a jug of beer. Ok ?
You want to discuss.. then discuss here. Ok ? good.
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???
Hmmmm....
You guys do know that there was no state of Israel till 1948, where by the Jews invaded or took the land of the Palestines.They basically invaded Palestine with the backing of England. From then till now they have been encroaching of Palestine's land. They now created two areas for the people of Palestine to live in Gaza(1969) and the west bank. These areas are considered the biggest open air prisons in the world.
The area is surrounded by 6 story high concrete walls. Nothing can enter or exit without the permission of the Israel guards who are in control of the border. The people of Palestine cannot do any sort of trading for everything coming in or out is controlled by Israel. Even food and aid is controlled by them.
If the Israelites do not let the trucks come in and supply food for the people of Palestine they can do nothing but starve. There was a harbour which was built with the help of France and Netherlands but Israel kept bombing it. (read it up in wikipedia) (would you consider it terrorism???)
The Palestinians have no army at all. Just a bunch of self declared soldiers.
In recent years after declaring areas for Palestinians to live in, some of the people of Israel started taking over Palestinian land in the west bank. And guess what the Palestinians can do nothing about it. There is no justice.
The only place where the Israelites don’t touch is Gaza. and there is an estimated 1.4 million people living in that small piece of land called Gaza. Check it out seriously compared to the whole of Israel they are packing so many people in a small area. Thus Gaza is one of the most populated areas per km.
Lets take this information and look at it in a different way. Lets say that Singapore controlled Malaysia(Malaysian land is ours).
One day the Japanese came and invaded the land. They took over the whole place and pushed everyone who was not Japanese to Singapore(they take over the whole of Malaysia). (if you cannot get the picture think abt it in the context of Singapore and Sentosa)
Now they bombed our harbours and airports. They built walls around Singapore to prevent anyone from going out or coming in. You can’t do any sort of trading. Your economy crashes and you need foreign aid.
However the aid that comes in is regulated by the Japanese. They patrol the streets in armoured convoys and have ultimate power.
You become like trapped animals. Even when Singapore was taken over by the Japanese we organised a resistance. And people were proud to fight the enemy and died with dignity.
For the people of Palestine this is no different. They fight the only way they know how and the Palestine people understand this that is why Hamas in still in power. If the actions of Hamas took place in any other country they’d be overthrown no doubt abt it.
They only way peace will be achieved is if the Palestinians are no longer oppressed. And this oppression has been going on for over 40 years.
I hope I’ve given you a different view to consider. God Bless..
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Originally posted by Perrin_:
???
Hmmmm....
You guys do know that there was no state of Israel till 1948, where by the Jews invaded or took the land of the Palestines.They basically invaded Palestine with the backing of England. From then till now they have been encroaching of Palestine's land. They now created two areas for the people of Palestine to live in Gaza(1969) and the west bank. These areas are considered the biggest open air prisons in the world.
The area is surrounded by 6 story high concrete walls. Nothing can enter or exit without the permission of the Israel guards who are in control of the border. The people of Palestine cannot do any sort of trading for everything coming in or out is controlled by Israel. Even food and aid is controlled by them.
If the Israelites do not let the trucks come in and supply food for the people of Palestine they can do nothing but starve. There was a harbour which was built with the help of France and Netherlands but Israel kept bombing it. (read it up in wikipedia) (would you consider it terrorism???)
The Palestinians have no army at all. Just a bunch of self declared soldiers.
In recent years after declaring areas for Palestinians to live in, some of the people of Israel started taking over Palestinian land in the west bank. And guess what the Palestinians can do nothing about it. There is no justice.
The only place where the Israelites don’t touch is Gaza. and there is an estimated 1.4 million people living in that small piece of land called Gaza. Check it out seriously compared to the whole of Israel they are packing so many people in a small area. Thus Gaza is one of the most populated areas per km.
Lets take this information and look at it in a different way. Lets say that Singapore controlled Malaysia(Malaysian land is ours).
One day the Japanese came and invaded the land. They took over the whole place and pushed everyone who was not Japanese to Singapore(they take over the whole of Malaysia). (if you cannot get the picture think abt it in the context of Singapore and Sentosa)
Now they bombed our harbours and airports. They built walls around Singapore to prevent anyone from going out or coming in. You can’t do any sort of trading. Your economy crashes and you need foreign aid.
However the aid that comes in is regulated by the Japanese. They patrol the streets in armoured convoys and have ultimate power.
You become like trapped animals. Even when Singapore was taken over by the Japanese we organised a resistance. And people were proud to fight the enemy and died with dignity.
For the people of Palestine this is no different. They fight the only way they know how and the Palestine people understand this that is why Hamas in still in power. If the actions of Hamas took place in any other country they’d be overthrown no doubt abt it.
They only way peace will be achieved is if the Palestinians are no longer oppressed. And this oppression has been going on for over 40 years.
I hope I’ve given you a different view to consider. God Bless..
Not to sound like a pacifist, but the sook ching probably would not have occured if the Malayan Communist Party didn't start creating so much trouble for the Japanese. The Japanese had to kill a lot of Chinese guys in Singapore because they were afraid of such insurgent elements here.
When you struggle unnecessary with no hopes of winning against a superior enemy, all you are doing is creating unnecessary collateral trouble and suffering.
This is what the Palestinians don't realize they are doing by supporting Hamas' terrrorist actions. And simply put, the Palestinians will not become a state because no one wants another basketcase in the Middle East. They have shown no organization to infrastructure development or economic developments, and is rife with internal political instability. If they want self-determination, they've gotta show they can get their act together.
No one wants to sweep a stable country like Israel out, for a potential basketcase.
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Originally posted by Stevenson101:
Common sense
As of 12 Jan 2009*
Israeli dead: 13 + 8 (This is the dead from the rocket/mortar attacks in 2008, information taken from wikiepdia)
Palestinians: 905
Common sense would tell me this is an extremely disproportional result. When you ask someone to use the term common sense, you are assuming that everyone is going to look at the stituation with the same value system you have.
Truthfully, i agree with you this has nothing to do with History. But the people who believe Israel is justified in this discussion are the ones pulling out all the history, siting it as truth that the Israelis are only partipating in self defense, not wholesale slaughter.
Jarhum is merely correcting the history that they are quoting.
Common sense also tells me BOTH sides must have done something wrong when two people are fighting.
Common sense tells me that i wouldn't shoot rockets at the houses of others if i feel there is no injustice involved.
Common sense tells me a death ratio of 1:45(rounded up) is not all a reasonable response, no matter how justifiable.
Surely it is not the case that the more impressive the kill ratio, the more guilty a side should be?
The sites targeted were those that were storing or operating some of those rockets that were being used to shoot into Israel. Imagine the kind of quantity of high explosives stored those facilities. Now imagine a bomb smashing through building detonating all those rockets and explosive materials.
My point is, Hamas is equally responsible for the collateral damage on 2 fronts.
1. For storing and operating them in dense civilian populations.
2. That their explosives were responsible for collateral damage as well.
Is Israel justified to retaliate for the rocket attacks? In my opinion, YES.
But is Israel guilty for overuse of force? In my opinion, also YES. However, that being said, one is more assured of victory amassing more than sufficient firepower in battle than having amassed insufficient.
Debating who is right and who is wrong is only secondary to what should be done now; finding a way to stop this.
In my opinion, Hamas is at the centre of this conflict that needs to be taken out of the picture. Hamas as a military wing must disband, and as a political organization, cease to exist. If the Palestinians in Gaza do not terrorize Israel with suicide bombings and rocket attacks, Israel would have no right to militarily oppress Gaza.
Even after that, it won't be peace. But at least there will be reduced bloodshed.
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Originally posted by freedomclub:
What did they win in 2006 ?
Did they win a political war or even a military one over Israel ?
They won the political mandate from the people of Gaza. It is Israel and Fatah who have refused to recognise the legitimately elected government of the Palestinians.
Did Hamas win any political mandate from the people of Gaza, or did Hamas win a pyrrhic victory that resulted in a larger loss to the Palestinian people as a whole ?
Hamas supposed political victory at the 2006 elections was a result that had Hamas winning only 44.45% and Fatah 41.43% - with the remaining percentage held by independents.
It was sheer dumbness on the Palestinian population as a whole to wilfully snub the international communities' views towards Hamas by electing Hamas into power; only to see the required international funding stopped to prevent the funds going into the hands of Hamas - known for their terrorists activities, and for their refusal to renounce the destruction of another sovereign state.
The World should simply step aside and let the Palestinians and Arabs resolve the mess that they have created for themselves.
For one who claim others for refusing to look at information that is contrary to pre-conceptions - you seem to be indulging in double standards that begin with you depending on propaganda for your facts.
As I pointed out, "propaganda" is simply "an organised effort to promote a particular belief or doctrine" (How many times has it been?). Of course I would depend on propaganda. You don't? You depend on a blank intellect (does that even exist?) to make a judgement?
If you possess any intellect, can intellect be "blank" ?
Is it not odd that you will question your own statement if "blank intellect exist" ?
If you are incapable to prevent yourself from taking a dispassionate views of events, filter out all the propaganda, see the issues in their stark bare facts without all the other peripheral emotional issues and images - can you even know how to stay neutral and make fair comments to the issues at hand ?
Do you understand what “Propaganda” is about ?
Is it as simple as you claim in the interpretation given for your understanding of "propaganda" ?
Even then Israel had only responded to the rocket and motar attacks by returning fire to the points of origins of the rocket and motar firing spots, and these were located intentionally by the Hamas leadership in the middle of dense Palestinian living areas.
So its the "Hamas always returns to the scene of the crime" logic? Does the Israeli military thinks? If Hamas fires a rocket from somewhere, would they even stay in that same place? All this strategic wisdom just gets hundreds of civilians killed.
Do you think that Hamas can hide itself from the drones that are in the air 24 / 7 / 365 and have been capturing images of the activities of Hamas or some unaffiliated insurgents ?
Secondly, would it not be logical for Hamas to be unable to run away from the purposefully selected firing sites for their weapon systems, considering their lack of military training, and nil military strategies ?
Finally, if their objective is to gain victory in the propaganda war against Israel, and to create international outrage towards Israel - would they not locate their activities in the midst of dense concentration of Palestinian residential areas ?
Which is what is happening.....
It is easy to shout "War Crimes" - but wild rhetoric with fiery sights then to blind the abilities to see facts on the ground.
If War Crimes are to be instituted, the Hamas leadership will be the first to be dragged to stand trial - firstly for the illegitimate overthrow of an elected Palestinian Government in the Gaza Strip; secondly for the killing and imprisonment of duly elected officials of the Palestinian Government for the Gaza Strip under President Abbas; and third for the deliberate firing of rockets and motar attacks into Israeli civilian residential areas, schools, and public areas; and fourth for the contravening of the Geneva Codes of War by using clearly designated neutral faclities for the storage of weapons, ammunition and training of personnels that included civilian homes, hospitals, religious sites, schools and others.
My heart bleeds for the innocent lives loss, but it stops bleeding for the hypocritical cries of those who support Hamas deliberate and unprovoked acts of war on the innocent lives of others.
Israel do not necessary need to prove that "might is right" - and is clearly resorting to the Middle-eastern tradition upheld by Islam's conservativism and fundamentalist religious practises in the "Principle of an Eye for an Eye".
Clearly those outside of the Middle-eastern region do not understand nor appreciate nor accept such value systems - does that make anyone in the UN qualified to pass judgment as to what constitute a War Crime ?
It will make you better off as a Singapore to be less involved due to your lop sided understanding of Human Rights that is colored by a lop sided Singapore humanities and value system.
Aren't you a Singaporean who have passed through the same education system? Are you saying that you're more qualified than the UN to make a judgement on "war crimes". If that is the case, say so.
Am I a Singaporean who have passed through the same education system ?
Which education system are you referring to ?
Are you referring to the Middle-eastern / Arabic education system moulded by their centuries old culture and traditions ? Are you walking at a tangent ?
While we have evolved in our vlaues and life styles - the Arabs seems to be trapped by the fundamentalist and extreme conservatists that mould their minds and trap them in the age old religious teachings.
They prefer to allow themselves to be led by fundamentalists and conservatists, rather then by those who are educated and who are modernists from amongst their younger generations.
Closer to home, we see our neighbors imitating the Middle-eastern fundamentalists and conservatists - simply to gain influence and control the minds of the rural uneducated folks, who are easily impressed by seemingly authoritative views from voices that pretend to be firm, strong, and forceful - but bankrupt of ideas to bring their community forward in this 21st Century.
In this day and age, despite more the forty years of independence, these uneducated would prefer to submit themselves and the larger community to be restricted by the archaic Hudud Laws based on some vague and archaic religious precepts.
There is no doubt that Hamas has committed war crimes, though not for overthrowing the Fatah government through a legitimate election, but for firing rockets into Israel. But in the same breath, Israel has also breached that same Geneva Conventions which you quoted.
"Israel signed the Geneva Convention on 7th June, 1951. For the Convention to have any value, Israel must be charged and made to stand trial in The Hague under the following sections.
Article 3 states "that even where there is not a conflict of international character the parties must as a minimum adhere to minimal protections described as: noncombatants, members of armed forces who have laid down their arms, and combatants who are hors de combat (out of the fight) due to wounds, detention, or any other cause shall in all circumstances be treated humanely, with the following prohibitions:
(a) Violence to life and person, in particular murder of all kinds, mutilation, cruel treatment and torture;
(b) Taking of hostages;
(c) Outrages upon personal dignity, in particular humiliating and degrading treatment
(d) the passing of sentences and the carrying out of executions without previous judgment pronounced by a regularly constituted court, affording all the judicial guarantees which are recognized as indispensable by civilized peoples."Clearly the litany of this list of supposed Israeli transgressions - as listed above and below - is a repeat of all that the Arab world had uselessly and impotently propagated for the last sixty years, and you have taken the easy option to merely regurgitate shamelessly despite claims to being a neutral Singaporean observer.
(a) Bombing of police stations, schools, ambulances, power plants and hospitals are designed to murder civilians indiscriminately.
(b) Israel's routine abduction of men, women and children in to Israeli detention camps. The number of such prisoners is 700,000 since 1967.
(c) Israeli soldiers routinely prevent pregnant women from receiving proper hospital treatment resulting in infant mortality, miscarriages and death.
(d) Israel's "targeted killings" of Hamas leaders constitutes murder.
Article 33 states "No protected person may be punished for an offence he or she has not personally committed. Collective penalties and likewise all measures of intimidation or of terrorism are prohibited.
Pillage is prohibited.
Reprisals against protected persons and their property are prohibited."
The unrelenting and merciless collective punishment of the Palestinian people has taken the form of..
(a) Destruction of Palestinian dwellings to make room for illegal settlements
(b) Destruction of Olive groves on Palestinian land and its resultant decimation of livelihoods.
(c) Bombing of a Palestinian power station collectively punished all Gaza inhabitants. Basic sanitation works were severely impacted.
(d) Blockading of medical supplies and food which left Palestinians eating grass for sustenance.
Israel has had resolutions passed against it since 1947 without any real enforcement. The sequence of resolutions below illustrates the complete lack of commitment of the United Nations to force Israel to comply with anything..
Resolution 636: " ... 'deeply regrets' Israeli deportation of Palestinian civilians.
Resolution 641: "... 'Deplores' Israel's continuing deportation of Palestinians.
Resolution 672: "... 'Condemns' Israel for "violence against Palestinians" at the Haram al-Sharif/Temple Mount.
Resolution 673: "... 'Deplores' Israel's refusal to cooperate with the United Nations.
Resolution 681: "... 'Deplores' Israel's resumption of the deportation of Palestinians.
Resolution 694: "... 'Deplores' Israel's deportation of Palestinians and calls on it to ensure their safe and immediate return.
Resolution 726: " ... 'strongly condemns' Israel's deportation of Palestinians.
Resolution 799: ". . . 'Strongly condemns' Israel's deportation of 413 Palestinians and calls for their immediate return."- Israel's War Crimes and "Change we can believe in"
If war crimes are really prosecuted, then the entire Bush Administration would have already been sentenced for their 8 years of war crimes, as well as the Clinton Administration, for their "humanitarian bombing" aka balkanisation of Yugoslavia and putting into power the mafia government of Hashim Thaci.
Obviously, might is right.
If it is so obvious - that might is right, why has the might of the larger Arab population been unable to serve their own people but allow a smaller Israeli population to dominate the politics and military might of the region ?
Is it not typical wild rhetoric to prosecute the entire Bush Administration, or even the Clintons ? Why did you leave Russia's Putin out of action -
Why has there been no talk of war crime prosecution towards Saudi Royal Family for the gross abuse towards their women folks; or the Iranian systematic enslavement of those deemed as threat to the State ?
Those that the Israeli Authorities have incarcerated were known Palestinian terrorists, some of whom were also prosecuted by the Palestinian Authority or Fatah.
If you cannot fathom the Middle-eastern culture of "returning an eye for an eye" - you might look better keeping your silence instead of exposing your weaker side.
After illegally usurping the authority over the Gaza Strip from the legitimately elected government of President Abbas, why did the Hamas leadership indulge themselves in the wasteful acts of aggressions towards Israel - instead of developing their strengths and stabilising their own future by exploiting the oil and gas fields lying in the Gaza ?
Did Israel even accord the Gazan government the same level of sovereignty it enjoys?
Firstly, is there a legitimate Gazan Government after the legitimate one was overthrown by Hamas ?
Secondly, has any Arab or any country in the Middle-east recognised Hamas as the legitimate Government ?
Clearly the publicity made about Israel's intention to grab the Gaza Strip is nothing more then another speculative propaganda developed by a bankrupt mind that depend on wild imagined events.
When Israel withdraws from the Gaza Strip after completing its various missions to discover and destroy all of Hama's abilities to launch rockets and motars from the Gaza Strip - the speculators will disingeneously develop another propaganda.
Obviously I cannot argue against your superb ESP abilities.
Were you invited to argue against anybody's ESP ?
Are you even capable to argue with yourself ?
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Abu Marzook, interviewed last week, said that Hamas had no intention of halting its rocket fire from Gaza. He views these rockets – 14 of which hit Israel on Monday – as just "sending a message" to the Jewish state.
"We are only talking about stopping the aggression from the Israelis against the civilian population in the Gaza Strip. But we are sending a message [by firing rockets]: 'We will not surrender.' We have to fight the Israelis and we will win this battle," he says. "We know we are going to lose a lot of people from our side, but we are going to win, inshallah [God willing]."
..........................I cannot believe this guy really loves his own country men, women and child.
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Originally posted by Shotgun:
Surely it is not the case that the more impressive the kill ratio, the more guilty a side should be?
The sites targeted were those that were storing or operating some of those rockets that were being used to shoot into Israel. Imagine the kind of quantity of high explosives stored those facilities. Now imagine a bomb smashing through building detonating all those rockets and explosive materials.
My point is, Hamas is equally responsible for the collateral damage on 2 fronts.
1. For storing and operating them in dense civilian populations.
2. That their explosives were responsible for collateral damage as well.
Is Israel justified to retaliate for the rocket attacks? In my opinion, YES.
But is Israel guilty for overuse of force? In my opinion, also YES. However, that being said, one is more assured of victory amassing more than sufficient firepower in battle than having amassed insufficient.
Debating who is right and who is wrong is only secondary to what should be done now; finding a way to stop this.
In my opinion, Hamas is at the centre of this conflict that needs to be taken out of the picture. Hamas as a military wing must disband, and as a political organization, cease to exist. If the Palestinians in Gaza do not terrorize Israel with suicide bombings and rocket attacks, Israel would have no right to militarily oppress Gaza.
Even after that, it won't be peace. But at least there will be reduced bloodshed.
Have i ever said Hamas hands are clean in this manner?
No, i said both sides must have done something to provoke the other side. But the problem thus far is everyone is saying Israel hands are clean and completely justified in attacking civilians. The civilians are not dying in a few scattered incidents, they are suffering the majority of the casualties.
Let's take your logic and turn it around, if Israel do not continously cut the Palestinians in Gaza access from food, water, electricity and the infrastructure for proper sanitation where would Hamas get the volunteers for suicide bombings and rockets attacks? Both of us are working and paid sufficient salaries to survive, would we want to be suicide bombers or fire rockets into Malaysia?
We both would not do it because we have comfortable lives and do not wish to do anything to disrupt that peace. What happens when Malaysia cuts off our water and food? Take out our power plants and cripple our sanitation systems? Would we not do the same?
I don't believe Hamas is retaining support because of any religious/racial/cultural reasons but simply because the Palestinians in Gaza are sick and tired of being pushed around and living in horrible environments. The Middle East nations wouldn't take them, why would they want millions of refugees to stress their society?
You're right on one point, there won't be peace. The blood from this conflict is far too great. Even if Hamas disbanded, a new Hamas will be borned from the families of those killed in this conflict. Rockets and mortar will still continue to land on Israel irregardless of the result of this conflict.
But pinning the blame solely on the Palestinians is ignoring the core of the problem.
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For me the ideology of this war to go on for a little while is easy.
Hamas is an Islamic group that have a die-die attitude. They, believe that they will be well treated in the after-life as they are fighting for Islam-same for most Islamic terror group. However, in the context of Islam this is unacceptable as the war is considered as political war and not religious war.
For Israel, they really want to end everything with Hamas...
And so, this cycle continue almost everyday in the news. Hamas claiming Gazza is not at lost yet and Israel's officials reiterating that they want to put an end to Hamas. Hmm..
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Originally posted by Shotgun:
Not to sound like a pacifist, but the sook ching probably would not have occured if the Malayan Communist Party didn't start creating so much trouble for the Japanese. The Japanese had to kill a lot of Chinese guys in Singapore because they were afraid of such insurgent elements here.
When you struggle unnecessary with no hopes of winning against a superior enemy, all you are doing is creating unnecessary collateral trouble and suffering.
This is what the Palestinians don't realize they are doing by supporting Hamas' terrrorist actions. And simply put, the Palestinians will not become a state because no one wants another basketcase in the Middle East. They have shown no organization to infrastructure development or economic developments, and is rife with internal political instability. If they want self-determination, they've gotta show they can get their act together.
No one wants to sweep a stable country like Israel out, for a potential basketcase.
So are you saying that the japanese had a right to start killing all the chinese in the Sook Ching Massacre?
And Singapore had no right to protect itself from its enemies?Singapore is a small island state and truthfully Singapore cannot withstand any prolonged assault aggainst a major nation say for example America. They have the military might and numbers to overwhelm Singapore easily.
If America attacked us are we sepouse to lay down and submit? Cause that's the message you sending.
"When you struggle unnecessary with no hopes of winning against a superior enemy, all you are doing is creating unnecessary collateral trouble and suffering."
- You might have just said lay down and die. Which is not the the way anyone or nation would act aspecialy Singaporeans."no one wants another basketcase in the Middle East. They have shown no organization to infrastructure development or economic developments,"
-Of coz they have no infrastructure or economic developments, whatever infrastructure that they have is being bombed! By Israel. Israel does not want the Palestines to have any sort of power but only to be dependent on them. Thus the bombing any type of trading center like the shipyard and blocades around the whole settlement preventing anything from going in or going out. How is a country sepouse to develop?We have to look at the cause which created this problem which came into effect 41 years ago. The arab nations have tried to protect the people of Palestines twice, the first which failed terriblely and they failed the second time only when the American came in and protected an invading nation(Israel).
"No one wants to sweep a stable country like Israel out, for a potential basketcase. "
Just because they are a stable country does not mean they are right. If Germany won the world war would the Holocaust be any less wrong? -
Originally posted by Stevenson101:
Have i ever said Hamas hands are clean in this manner?
No, i said both sides must have done something to provoke the other side. But the problem thus far is everyone is saying Israel hands are clean and completely justified in attacking civilians. The civilians are not dying in a few scattered incidents, they are suffering the majority of the casualties.
Let's take your logic and turn it around, if Israel do not continously cut the Palestinians in Gaza access from food, water, electricity and the infrastructure for proper sanitation where would Hamas get the volunteers for suicide bombings and rockets attacks? Both of us are working and paid sufficient salaries to survive, would we want to be suicide bombers or fire rockets into Malaysia?
We both would not do it because we have comfortable lives and do not wish to do anything to disrupt that peace. What happens when Malaysia cuts off our water and food? Take out our power plants and cripple our sanitation systems? Would we not do the same?
I don't believe Hamas is retaining support because of any religious/racial/cultural reasons but simply because the Palestinians in Gaza are sick and tired of being pushed around and living in horrible environments. The Middle East nations wouldn't take them, why would they want millions of refugees to stress their society?
You're right on one point, there won't be peace. The blood from this conflict is far too great. Even if Hamas disbanded, a new Hamas will be borned from the families of those killed in this conflict. Rockets and mortar will still continue to land on Israel irregardless of the result of this conflict.
But pinning the blame solely on the Palestinians is ignoring the core of the problem.
This is precisely the chicken and egg debate that goes nowhere as Jarhum mentioned before. Is Israel reacting to Hamas or Hamas reacting to Israel? It is a self perpetuating cycle of destruction that needs to be broken.
To break it, my opinion is simply to take one side out of the equation and see what happens. Since Israel is an established state for more than 61 years, it's not going anywhere. Hence, Hamas has to go.
Let me clarify, I don't solely blame the Palestinians. I blame Hamas. I blame them for attacking and terrorizing a nation state with a powerful military, bringing about its wrath around the civilian population it resides itself in.
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Originally posted by Shotgun:
This is precisely the chicken and egg debate that goes nowhere as Jarhum mentioned before. Is Israel reacting to Hamas or Hamas reacting to Israel? It is a self perpetuating cycle of destruction that needs to be broken.
To break it, my opinion is simply to take one side out of the equation and see what happens. Since Israel is an established state for more than 61 years, it's not going anywhere. Hence, Hamas has to go.
Let me clarify, I don't solely blame the Palestinians. I blame Hamas. I blame them for attacking and terrorizing a nation state with a powerful military, bringing about its wrath around the civilian population it resides itself in.
Meh i see your point, i'm just pointing out the flaw in the logic for most of the Palestinians haters here.
Your opinion is correct, Israel has the overwhelming economic and military strength over Hamas here. And thus logically Hamas would have to go. But i merely have issues with others saying that Israeli is the morally superior party here.
That said however, it doesn't make a difference. So what if Hamas disbands itself? The members can just reform another party and continue the mortar and rocket barrages.
The only way for Israel to avoid that is to install a brutal and corrupted Palestinian leadership to suppress its people. How would that stop the hatred?
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Originally posted by Stevenson101:
Meh i see your point, i'm just pointing out the flaw in the logic for most of the Palestinians haters here.
Your opinion is correct, Israel has the overwhelming economic and military strength over Hamas here. And thus logically Hamas would have to go. But i merely have issues with others saying that Israeli is the morally superior party here.
That said however, it doesn't make a difference. So what if Hamas disbands itself? The members can just reform another party and continue the mortar and rocket barrages.
The only way for Israel to avoid that is to install a brutal and corrupted Palestinian leadership to suppress its people. How would that stop the hatred?
Are there any "Palestinian Haters" here in this thread ?
Seriously, as Singaporeans we should be concern of the situation that the Israelis find themselves in - not that we should stereotyped ourselves as living in a neighborhood of Muslims but more to the point where violence is used to perpetuate the expression of frustrations and to settle issues.
Everyone has a right to live in peace, and surely the Israelis having had the experience of being persecuted throughout history - from Biblical Days till the present - would feel for the Palestinians caught in the same situation as in their history.
There have been so many missed opportunities during the Presidency of Arafat, who had his own vain agenda to fulfill instead of reaching out for peace with Israel as Egyptian President Sadat had done and changed the status quo of the relationship between Egypt and Israel.
The efforts to resolve the current Israeli-Palestinian conflict would have been settled with the Palestinians led by President Abbas, and when Israel was led by PM Sharon - who had begun dismantling the Jewish settlements even as he was the strongest proponent for the spread of these settlements.
Unfortunately, the entire peace process was scuttled with Hamas being funded by Iran, and sharing the same vain objective of seeing to the destruction of Israel.
Hamas is poison to the Palestinian cause, and is no better then the loafer with nothing to do and to be employed by someone with an ambitious agenda to takeover the entire neighborhood by destabilising everyone and everything.
Israel understand the mentality of the Arabs better then anyone not from the Middle-east region, and while the Israeli methods used is violent and excessive by anyone's standard - it is unfortunately the reality in being the only language that will gain Israel the respect from those who will use violence to threaten them.
This has been established as a fact, with the big players like Syria, Jordan, Saudi Arabia and Egypt all accepting the status quo since the 1967 Six-Day War - when all the combined forces of these front-line countries were neutralised, and vast tracts of territories were lost and held for decades until peace treaty was established.
Now that the big players understand the futility of violence, it is the small players - like Hezbollah and Hamas - being instigated and funded by Iran that is threatening peace in the region.
Should we take sides and allow our views to be corrupted by irresponsible groups like Hamas who will expose their own Palestinian people to danger with their reckless acts of violence towards Israel ?
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Originally posted by Stevenson101:
Meh i see your point, i'm just pointing out the flaw in the logic for most of the Palestinians haters here.
Your opinion is correct, Israel has the overwhelming economic and military strength over Hamas here. And thus logically Hamas would have to go. But i merely have issues with others saying that Israeli is the morally superior party here.
That said however, it doesn't make a difference. So what if Hamas disbands itself? The members can just reform another party and continue the mortar and rocket barrages.
The only way for Israel to avoid that is to install a brutal and corrupted Palestinian leadership to suppress its people. How would that stop the hatred?
Israel's moral superiority is an unecessary debate here simply because they have a justified stand in retaliatory action. Hama's rocket attack literally screamed, "Come get me. Bomb me! I have surrounded myself with women and childrend. Hit me if you dare." Hamas committed acts of war; what did they expect Israel to do?
IMO, neither side is morally superior. Hamas deliberately provokes Israel and entrenches itself within civilian populations, while Israel disregards the civilian population and attacks the entrenched fighters and launchers anyway.
First things first, stop the fighting and get food and medicine in. For that Hamas has to stand down.
For Israel to be arbitrarily bound to a ceasefire, it must not come under any attacks, hence Hamas has to go.
Negotiations on the blockade and aid should then be carried out in a series of multilateral talks.
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Originally posted by Atobe:
Are there any "Palestinian Haters" here in this thread ?
Seriously, as Singaporeans we should be concern of the situation that the Israelis find themselves in - not that we should stereotyped ourselves as living in a neighborhood of Muslims but more to the point where violence is used to perpetuate the expression of frustrations and to settle issues.
Everyone has a right to live in peace, and surely the Israelis having had the experience of being persecuted throughout history - from Biblical Days till the present - would feel for the Palestinians caught in the same situation as in their history.
There have been so many missed opportunities during the Presidency of Arafat, who had his own vain agenda to fulfill instead of reaching out for peace with Israel as Egyptian President Sadat had done and changed the status quo of the relationship between Egypt and Israel.
The efforts to resolve the current Israeli-Palestinian conflict would have been settled with the Palestinians led by President Abbas, and when Israel was led by PM Sharon - who had begun dismantling the Jewish settlements even as he was the strongest proponent for the spread of these settlements.
Unfortunately, the entire peace process was scuttled with Hamas being funded by Iran, and sharing the same vain objective of seeing to the destruction of Israel.
Hamas is poison to the Palestinian cause, and is no better then the loafer with nothing to do and to be employed by someone with an ambitious agenda to takeover the entire neighborhood by destabilising everyone and everything.
Israel understand the mentality of the Arabs better then anyone not from the Middle-east region, and while the Israeli methods used is violent and excessive by anyone's standard - it is unfortunately the reality in being the only language that will gain Israel the respect from those who will use violence to threaten them.
This has been established as a fact, with the big players like Syria, Jordan, Saudi Arabia and Egypt all accepting the status quo since the 1967 Six-Day War - when all the combined forces of these front-line countries were neutralised, and vast tracts of territories were lost and held for decades until peace treaty was established.
Now that the big players understand the futility of violence, it is the small players - like Hezbollah and Hamas - being instigated and funded by Iran that is threatening peace in the region.
Should we take sides and allow our views to be corrupted by irresponsible groups like Hamas who will expose their own Palestinian people to danger with their reckless acts of violence towards Israel ?
Oh, then we should take YOUR side and cheer on as the Israelis attack the Palestinians in a one sided slaughter?
Hamas is only the representation of the fustration faced by the Palestinian people, people do not engage in violent activities if they are not being provoked to do it, the resentment is THERE, NOW. Removing Hamas, Hizbollah will not remove the core of the problem.
The Palestinians are living in atrocious surroundings, as long as that exists, as long as Israel continues to pound their infrastructure and kill their children a new Hamas will always come back.
It's a typical chicken and egg problem. Let Israel continue to wipe out the Palestinians and let the world continue to be surprised why the removal of the "poison" never seemed to remove the disease.
History has always shown that the one with the superior military and economic strength can decide how history is written. Why should it be any different for Israel? Just that after a millenium of abuse they finally get the chance to do it to someone else.
I just don't pretend any party in this conflict is morally superior. Neither is more right than the other.
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Originally posted by Shotgun:
Israel's moral superiority is an unecessary debate here simply because they have a justified stand in retaliatory action. Hama's rocket attack literally screamed, "Come get me. Bomb me! I have surrounded myself with women and childrend. Hit me if you dare." Hamas committed acts of war; what did they expect Israel to do?
IMO, neither side is morally superior. Hamas deliberately provokes Israel and entrenches itself within civilian populations, while Israel disregards the civilian population and attacks the entrenched fighters and launchers anyway.
First things first, stop the fighting and get food and medicine in. For that Hamas has to stand down.
For Israel to be arbitrarily bound to a ceasefire, it must not come under any attacks, hence Hamas has to go.
Negotiations on the blockade and aid should then be carried out in a series of multilateral talks.
Like i said, i don't disagree with your views. Hamas is the weaker party here, they should be the one giving up.
But let me ask you, the Palestinians in Gaza has just been bombed to hell and have seen their families and relatives murdered. Do you seriously think the grieving fathers, sons and brothers will obey any order by Hamas to stand down?
Hamas is not exactly an organisation renowned for their discipline.
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Originally posted by Perrin_:
???
Hmmmm....
You guys do know that there was no state of Israel till 1948, where by the Jews invaded or took the land of the Palestines.They basically invaded Palestine with the backing of England. From then till now they have been encroaching of Palestine's land. They now created two areas for the people of Palestine to live in Gaza(1969) and the west bank. These areas are considered the biggest open air prisons in the world.
The area is surrounded by 6 story high concrete walls. Nothing can enter or exit without the permission of the Israel guards who are in control of the border. The people of Palestine cannot do any sort of trading for everything coming in or out is controlled by Israel. Even food and aid is controlled by them.
If the Israelites do not let the trucks come in and supply food for the people of Palestine they can do nothing but starve. There was a harbour which was built with the help of France and Netherlands but Israel kept bombing it. (read it up in wikipedia) (would you consider it terrorism???)
The Palestinians have no army at all. Just a bunch of self declared soldiers.
In recent years after declaring areas for Palestinians to live in, some of the people of Israel started taking over Palestinian land in the west bank. And guess what the Palestinians can do nothing about it. There is no justice.
The only place where the Israelites don’t touch is Gaza. and there is an estimated 1.4 million people living in that small piece of land called Gaza. Check it out seriously compared to the whole of Israel they are packing so many people in a small area. Thus Gaza is one of the most populated areas per km.
Lets take this information and look at it in a different way. Lets say that Singapore controlled Malaysia(Malaysian land is ours).
One day the Japanese came and invaded the land. They took over the whole place and pushed everyone who was not Japanese to Singapore(they take over the whole of Malaysia). (if you cannot get the picture think abt it in the context of Singapore and Sentosa)
Now they bombed our harbours and airports. They built walls around Singapore to prevent anyone from going out or coming in. You can’t do any sort of trading. Your economy crashes and you need foreign aid.
However the aid that comes in is regulated by the Japanese. They patrol the streets in armoured convoys and have ultimate power.
You become like trapped animals. Even when Singapore was taken over by the Japanese we organised a resistance. And people were proud to fight the enemy and died with dignity.
For the people of Palestine this is no different. They fight the only way they know how and the Palestine people understand this that is why Hamas in still in power. If the actions of Hamas took place in any other country they’d be overthrown no doubt abt it.
They only way peace will be achieved is if the Palestinians are no longer oppressed. And this oppression has been going on for over 40 years.
I hope I’ve given you a different view to consider. God Bless..
Another 'Jarhum' distorting facts.
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Originally posted by Atobe:
Did Hamas win any political mandate from the people of Gaza, or did Hamas win a pyrrhic victory that resulted in a larger loss to the Palestinian people as a whole ?
Hamas supposed political victory at the 2006 elections was a result that had Hamas winning only 44.45% and Fatah 41.43% - with the remaining percentage held by independents.
It was sheer dumbness on the Palestinian population as a whole to wilfully snub the international communities' views towards Hamas by electing Hamas into power; only to see the required international funding stopped to prevent the funds going into the hands of Hamas - known for their terrorists activities, and for their refusal to renounce the destruction of another sovereign state.
The World should simply step aside and let the Palestinians and Arabs resolve the mess that they have created for themselves.
If you possess any intellect, can intellect be "blank" ?
Is it not odd that you will question your own statement if "blank intellect exist" ?
If you are incapable to prevent yourself from taking a dispassionate views of events, filter out all the propaganda, see the issues in their stark bare facts without all the other peripheral emotional issues and images - can you even know how to stay neutral and make fair comments to the issues at hand ?
Do you understand what “Propaganda” is about ?
Is it as simple as you claim in the interpretation given for your understanding of "propaganda" ?
Do you think that Hamas can hide itself from the drones that are in the air 24 / 7 / 365 and have been capturing images of the activities of Hamas or some unaffiliated insurgents ?
Secondly, would it not be logical for Hamas to be unable to run away from the purposefully selected firing sites for their weapon systems, considering their lack of military training, and nil military strategies ?
Finally, if their objective is to gain victory in the propaganda war against Israel, and to create international outrage towards Israel - would they not locate their activities in the midst of dense concentration of Palestinian residential areas ?
Which is what is happening.....
Am I a Singaporean who have passed through the same education system ?
Which education system are you referring to ?
Are you referring to the Middle-eastern / Arabic education system moulded by their centuries old culture and traditions ? Are you walking at a tangent ?
While we have evolved in our vlaues and life styles - the Arabs seems to be trapped by the fundamentalist and extreme conservatists that mould their minds and trap them in the age old religious teachings.
They prefer to allow themselves to be led by fundamentalists and conservatists, rather then by those who are educated and who are modernists from amongst their younger generations.
Closer to home, we see our neighbors imitating the Middle-eastern fundamentalists and conservatists - simply to gain influence and control the minds of the rural uneducated folks, who are easily impressed by seemingly authoritative views from voices that pretend to be firm, strong, and forceful - but bankrupt of ideas to bring their community forward in this 21st Century.
In this day and age, despite more the forty years of independence, these uneducated would prefer to submit themselves and the larger community to be restricted by the archaic Hudud Laws based on some vague and archaic religious precepts.
Clearly the litany of this list of supposed Israeli transgressions - as listed above and below - is a repeat of all that the Arab world had uselessly and impotently propagated for the last sixty years, and you have taken the easy option to merely regurgitate shamelessly despite claims to being a neutral Singaporean observer.
If it is so obvious - that might is right, why has the might of the larger Arab population been unable to serve their own people but allow a smaller Israeli population to dominate the politics and military might of the region ?
Is it not typical wild rhetoric to prosecute the entire Bush Administration, or even the Clintons ? Why did you leave Russia's Putin out of action -
Why has there been no talk of war crime prosecution towards Saudi Royal Family for the gross abuse towards their women folks; or the Iranian systematic enslavement of those deemed as threat to the State ?
Those that the Israeli Authorities have incarcerated were known Palestinian terrorists, some of whom were also prosecuted by the Palestinian Authority or Fatah.
If you cannot fathom the Middle-eastern culture of "returning an eye for an eye" - you might look better keeping your silence instead of exposing your weaker side.
Firstly, is there a legitimate Gazan Government after the legitimate one was overthrown by Hamas ?
Secondly, has any Arab or any country in the Middle-east recognised Hamas as the legitimate Government ?
Were you invited to argue against anybody's ESP ?
Are you even capable to argue with yourself ?
Hamas supposed political victory at the 2006 elections was a result that had Hamas winning only 44.45% and Fatah 41.43% - with the remaining percentage held by independents.
Is that not democracy?
If you are incapable to prevent yourself from taking a dispassionate views of events, filter out all the propaganda, see the issues in their stark bare facts without all the other peripheral emotional issues and images - can you even know how to stay neutral and make fair comments to the issues at hand ?
Do you understand what “Propaganda” is about ?
Is it as simple as you claim in the interpretation given for your understanding of "propaganda" ?
Which is what I'm trying to do. I think that Hamas should not launch rocket attacks at Israel. But at the same time, Israel's retaliation is simply excessive for the kind of conflict which is taking place. How is that not objective? Are you going to stand by dispassionately and comment 'neutrally' while Israel slaughters close to 1000 Palestinians?
By the way, I'm just using the definition of "propaganda" that Edward Bernays, the father of public opinion, used.
"The mechanism by which ideas are disseminated on a large scale is propaganda, in the broad sense of an organised effort to spread a particular belief or doctrine...."Propaganda" in its proper meaning is a perfectly wholesome word, of honest parentage, and with an honourable history. The fact that it should to-day be carrying a sinister meaning merely shows how much of the child remains in the average adult. A group of citizens writes and talks in favour of a certain course of action in some debatable question, believing that it is promoting the best interest of the community. Propaganda? Not a bit of it. Just a plain forceful statement of truth. But let another group of citizens express opposing views, and they are promptly labeled with the sinister name of propaganda..."
Am I a Singaporean who have passed through the same education system ?
Which education system are you referring to ?
Quoting "It will make you better off as a Singapore to be less involved due to your lop sided understanding of Human Rights that is colored by a lop sided Singapore humanities and value system."
Clearly the litany of this list of supposed Israeli transgressions - as listed above and below - is a repeat of all that the Arab world had uselessly and impotently propagated for the last sixty years, and you have taken the easy option to merely regurgitate shamelessly despite claims to being a neutral Singaporean observer.
Whether the Arabs are the ones propagating it or not is unimportant, the point is that Israel HAS carried those acts out and received condemnation from the UN, though always protected by the US's veto power. If you are of the opinion that those violations of human rights didnt take place and hence are lies, say so then.
If it is so obvious - that might is right, why has the might of the larger Arab population been unable to serve their own people but allow a smaller Israeli population to dominate the politics and military might of the region ?
Which journalist has had the balls to ask any Arab ruler that question? I dont know for sure, but it seems that they dont care about their Arab brothers in Gaza. As long as they can prosper, its business as usual.
Is it not typical wild rhetoric to prosecute the entire Bush Administration, or even the Clintons ? Why did you leave Russia's Putin out of action -
Why has there been no talk of war crime prosecution towards Saudi Royal Family for the gross abuse towards their women folks; or the Iranian systematic enslavement of those deemed as threat to the State ?
By all means include them. I was just stating some examples.
Firstly, is there a legitimate Gazan Government after the legitimate one was overthrown by Hamas ?
The question should be is Fatah the legitimate government of Gaza by refusing to relinquish power to Hamas after losing the 2006 elections?
Secondly, has any Arab or any country in the Middle-east recognised Hamas as the legitimate Government ?
Hamas became the legitimate government of the Palestinian people when it won the elections. Whether or not any country in the region or outside of it recognises it is a matter of geopolitics. It is whether they can afford to offend the western world, especially the US and Israel.
Were you invited to argue against anybody's ESP ?
Were you presuming to have ESP when you made this statement?
"When Israel withdraws from the Gaza Strip after completing its various missions to discover and destroy all of Hama's abilities to launch rockets and motars from the Gaza Strip - the speculators will disingeneously develop another propaganda."
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Originally posted by Stevenson101:
Like i said, i don't disagree with your views. Hamas is the weaker party here, they should be the one giving up.
But let me ask you, the Palestinians in Gaza has just been bombed to hell and have seen their families and relatives murdered. Do you seriously think the grieving fathers, sons and brothers will obey any order by Hamas to stand down?
Hamas is not exactly an organisation renowned for their discipline.
Which is exactly why Israel's stated aim of destroying Hamas is in question. If they wanted to weaken support for Hamas, would they be pursuing this course of action? By invading, bombing and shelling Gaza, the IDF is doing the exact opposite of what it is claiming to be doing- driving the Palestinians to support Hamas even more because Hamas is standing up against Israel.
But replace Israel's goal with the destruction of the Palestinian people and the picture becomes clear.