Israel hits Palestine again while West Cheers Them On
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Originally posted by Shotgun:
Jarhum,
My bad for also forgetting to mention that Egypt also enacted a blockade on Israeli Shipping in the Red Sea. Isn't that an act of belligerency?
Add that with the thousand tanks, and hundred thousand troops sitting on the border, Israel had a real concern for its security. Any country would.
Eban did attempt to delay Israeli pre-emptive strike, however, American plans to aid Israel fell on its ass, and Israel then knew they stood alone and had to do whatever it took to guarantee its Survival. Why would it be matter of Survival? All thanks to Nasser who chose very powerful words for that situation.
Again, you claim to be a Political Scientist, and should understand that words are very carefully chosen when dealing with other countries. Nasser's choice of words were in not way defensive. He did not claim that they would defeat Israel, but chose the words, "destruction of Israel." He added, "The Arab people want to fight" and not "The Arab people will want to fight." A very aggressive choice of words don't you think?
On Resolution 242, it was a matter of fact that the Security Council rejected appeals to insert the word "all." If they intended for Israel to return all territories and force her to accept pre may 1967 borders, they would have happily made amendments.
Now on the issue of Genocide. A massacre might pass as a charge, but genocide not. Genocide entails the complete elimination of a race of people, hence the root word, "gene-." What Hitler tried to do, was genocide. He targeted Jews, and came up with systematice methods to kill them by the droves. He openly stated his ideals of "purification" of "Aryan" peoples and lands.
There is no sign that the Israelis are systematically killing Palestinians. If aerial bombings are considered so, then Americans should have been accused of genocide of Iraqis too. Oh, did I mention that that would be horribly inefficient without the use of Fuel Air Explosives?
You can call me whatever you like, Zionist Extremists, PAP Dog, blah blah... I'm used to it. I've said it before, I'm a realist. I don't really care as much as for the morals and how many people are dying from Israeli WP. I just know that the coexistence of Hamas and Israel creates security dilemmas and the only way to relative "peace" is the capitulation of Hamas.
You Israeli advocates are extremely fond of exploiting the notion of double standards blatantly. Although double standards is an inherent fault of the human psyche, purposeful manipulation creates questions on its exact purpose.
Thus the Israeli blockade of Gazas border is also similarly construed as an act of belligerency although I attest Israel threw the first punch in this war.
Eban was assured Nasser did not plan want to go to war. And Nasser's words were gleefully taken out of context as you did with mine. He only mentioned war with Israel in the event Syria and Egypt were attacked first. Do not get me wrong. The mobilization of troops and blockade of Tiran were doing injustice and provocative towards Israel. However,as a political scientist, I am simply citing references to Israels reasons for the preemptive strikes from the Israeli voice that the Israeli political and military elite believed the war would be transformative for Israel not miliatrily preferable. Transformative in no sense would be interpreted as defensive. Israel's sick lust for war and violence is exemplified here as assurances of and explicit knowledge of its enemy's war capabilities as well as desires were acknowledged by Israel to be of no threat as it repeats its sick lust for blood in the perpertration of this current round of violence for political and ideological purposes.
It appears you have confused a political scientist with a politician. There are stark disparities between these two professions within the same sphere of study.
One who is educated a political scientist would not willfully omit segments of any statement and construct a perceived rhetoric revolving around segments of a staement taken out of context. Only politicians do. "The Arab peple will want to fight...." Only if Israel attacked it first.
On 242, U.N never intended Israel to withdraw from its territories nor intended Israel to continue its occupation. I never stated 242 explicitly requires Israel to withdraw from its post 1967 boundaries. I believe this is the most neutral statement one could ever deduce from the inconclusiveness of 242 rather than adhering to either, opposing interpretation.
Your Iraqi comparison is invalid as there is much lesser Palestinians than Iraqis. However, I reiterate my position as a humanist that the killings of innocent Iraqis from the Americans "war on terror" is no less malicious than the killings of victims of 911.
I vehemently disagree with your assertion that there is "no sign that the Israelis are systematically killing the Palestinians". There have been charges raised towards the killings by Israel and these charges are raised by those who are far greater eloquent and knowledgable in their own right. I assume you definition of a genecide additionally involves an explicit declaration by the perpertrator as well. My friend, genocide requires no declaration nor rhetoric and actions speaks volumes greater than words. Israel systematic extermination of the Palestinian people does not occur in stages nor phases but occur in periods. Within the next 100 years and Israel continue its twice or thrice in a decade acts of "self-defence" against the Palestinians, the Palestinian race will be condemn to the pages of history.
Your statement that you do not care as much as for the morals and the massacre of innocents reflect your blatant lack of conscience, as much as you do for the politics. Likewise most realists assumed that PLO and Israel could never coexist but diplomacy proved otherwise. The security framework of the Palestinian territories is no longer intricate due to the Arabs constant threat to annhilate Israels existance. This threat has been relegated to the pages of history.
The Arabs have left Israel alone other than fruitless insults. But the contemporary security paradigm of the land around Israel is complicated by Israel's paranoia and unrealistic demands for peace. Not to mention its fanatical guarding of its dignity and scoring political points back home.
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Originally posted by Herzog_Zwei:
Another mistatement: Muslims in the Middle East envision an era of peace from a pan-Islamic brotherhood of nations but which version of it will it be? The Shiite or Sunni vision?
Another mistatement from Jarhum:
Is every Israeli who defends his nation a Zionist? Granted that there are Kahanists in the military, but the state of Israel is a legal nation under the perview of the UN and thus must stand against all agression, including Hamas unwillingness to help police the mutual border.
When did I ever mentioned that Muslims in the Middle East envision an era of peace? I challenge you to prove that I made this statement.
Never did I mention every Israeli who is in the army is a zionist. Rather the bulk of the political and miliatry elite.
It is an academic crime to wilfully charge a person of making a statement by directing accusations without evidence.
Come on, prove i made those staements.
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Originally posted by mancha:
Me a Zionist extremist! Ha ha ha
This from someone who by default is a potential terrorist sympathizer. Opps! I am not allowed to say that. Rule is "Can't do on to them what they do on to us."
Fruitfull discussion. My foot.
Mancha, I have great intent to report you to the authorities with regards to your "personal opinion"I have personally printed and referred your article to several lawyer friends of mine who have stated its pretty obvious your "personal opinion" will land you in deep shit.
Your articles are not relevent to this discussion at all but you are merely demonizing the Muslims and Islamic faith. I hope you realize in Singapore, your actions willfully attack people of a certain faith.
Anyway I suppose you are already prepared since you know your personal opinions have grave implications for yourself.
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Originally posted by Jarhum:
You Israeli advocates are extremely fond of exploiting the notion of double standards blatantly. Although double standards is an inherent fault of the human psyche, purposeful manipulation creates questions on its exact purpose.
Thus the Israeli blockade of Gazas border is also similarly construed as an act of belligerency although I attest Israel threw the first punch in this war.
Eban was assured Nasser did not plan want to go to war. And Nasser's words were gleefully taken out of context as you did with mine. He only mentioned war with Israel in the event Syria and Egypt were attacked first. Do not get me wrong. The mobilization of troops and blockade of Tiran were doing injustice and provocative towards Israel. However,as a political scientist, I am simply citing references to Israels reasons for the preemptive strikes from the Israeli voice that the Israeli political and military elite believed the war would be transformative for Israel not miliatrily preferable. Transformative in no sense would be interpreted as defensive. Israel's sick lust for war and violence is exemplified here as assurances of and explicit knowledge of its enemy's war capabilities as well as desires were acknowledged by Israel to be of no threat as it repeats its sick lust for blood in the perpertration of this current round of violence for political and ideological purposes.
It appears you have confused a political scientist with a politician. There are stark disparities between these two professions within the same sphere of study.
One who is educated a political scientist would not willfully omit segments of any statement and construct a perceived rhetoric revolving around segments of a staement taken out of context. Only politicians do. "The Arab peple will want to fight...." Only if Israel attacked it first.
On 242, U.N never intended Israel to withdraw from its territories nor intended Israel to continue its occupation. I never stated 242 explicitly requires Israel to withdraw from its post 1967 boundaries. I believe this is the most neutral statement one could ever deduce from the inconclusiveness of 242 rather than adhering to either, opposing interpretation.
Your Iraqi comparison is invalid as there is much lesser Palestinians than Iraqis. However, I reiterate my position as a humanist that the killings of innocent Iraqis from the Americans "war on terror" is no less malicious than the killings of victims of 911.
I vehemently disagree with your assertion that there is "no sign that the Israelis are systematically killing the Palestinians". There have been charges raised towards the killings by Israel and these charges are raised by those who are far greater eloquent and knowledgable in their own right. I assume you definition of a genecide additionally involves an explicit declaration by the perpertrator as well. My friend, genocide requires no declaration nor rhetoric and actions speaks volumes greater than words. Israel systematic extermination of the Palestinian people does not occur in stages nor phases but occur in periods. Within the next 100 years and Israel continue its twice or thrice in a decade acts of "self-defence" against the Palestinians, the Palestinian race will be condemn to the pages of history.
Your statement that you do not care as much as for the morals and the massacre of innocents reflect your blatant lack of conscience, as much as you do for the politics. Likewise most realists assumed that PLO and Israel could never coexist but diplomacy proved otherwise. The security framework of the Palestinian territories is no longer intricate due to the Arabs constant threat to annhilate Israels existance. This threat has been relegated to the pages of history.
The Arabs have left Israel alone other than fruitless insults. But the contemporary security paradigm of the land around Israel is complicated by Israel's paranoia and unrealistic demands for peace. Not to mention its fanatical guarding of its dignity and scoring political points back home.
Jarhum,
It's not my Israeli advocates that are fond of double standards. The whole world is fond of double standards. So whose standards "stand" at the end of the day? It will always be the standards that serves the interests of the many or of the powerful.
Israel's blockade of the Gaza differs in that the Gaza strip, and the Palestinians living there are not a state and have no sovereignty. To the Israelis, its merely securing their borders and with a rightful reason; preventing suicide bombers from enter Israel. Is that not a valid concern?
I hope that you do not miss my point about this. What I am saying by providing the Israeli side of the story is that, both sides aren't clean. Both sides erred, and Israel was a little to overeager or overzealous in their "pre-emptive" strike and not returning occupied lands in order to "bribe" some goodwill out of her Arab neighbours. Instead, she chose keep occupying them to serve as a constant reminder of how they failed to annihilate her. At least the "reminder" part worked.
Oh there was this piece of text about the Arab Peace Initiative that I'd like to share with you to see if you agree with it.
The Arab Heads of State have agreed to unite their political efforts at the international and diplomatic level to eliminate the effects of the aggression and to ensure the withdrawal of the aggressive Israeli forces from the Arab lands which have been occupied since the aggression of June 5. This will be done within the framework of the main principles by which the Arab States abide, namely, no peace with Israel, no recognition of Israel, no negotiations with it, and insistence on the rights of the Palestinian people in their own country.
No, I have not confused a Political Scientist for Politician. I am very aware of the differences between that two, trust me. However, I believe that Political Scientists would be people who are also well aware of the type of words politicians use. I'm saying that you should know the meaning and strength behind the words they use, because they choose such words carefully. I am not asking you to use it. =D
PS: Nasser said "The Arab people want to fight."
Your vehement disagreement has been noted, and you are entitled to that opinion despite its unsubstantiated nature. I cannot subscribe to that opinion simply because that would make the Israelis the most horridly inefficient genociders ever considering Hitler had so many wonderful ideas on how to eliminate them. I believe the African clans had better and cheaper ethnic cleansing methods than the Israelis, if they were indeed embarking on one.
Well, now I am also conscienceless. Let me tell you what I believe. I believe that for people to stop dying, for women and children to stop getting caught in collaterals, is for Israel to cease combat operations. But I know that is an impossibility because sooner or later, some crackpot in Hamas is gonna start mortaring Israel again; groundhog day, deja vous, and there we will be on this forums debating again.
So how does the fighting stop? The simplest way is for Hamas to stop fighting and surrender. Stop spreading hateful messages of the Jews and Zionist agenda, and let the Palestinian people decide for themselves. What good does it do to those women and children when they keep teaching their own to hate Jews and commit themselves to martyrdom against them? It only serves to perpetuate the cycle of violence. How do I harbor sympathy to the suffering of Palestinians as a people when they have teaching their children to hate and kill?
Perpetuating messages of hate towards the Jews won't help stop the fighting. Getting Hamas to stop their attacks and surrender, will. I know that to be the only option because Israel definitely won't surrender.
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Originally posted by Jarhum:
Mancha, I have great intent to report you to the authorities with regards to your "personal opinion"I have personally printed and referred your article to several lawyer friends of mine who have stated its pretty obvious your "personal opinion" will land you in deep shit.
Your articles are not relevent to this discussion at all but you are merely demonizing the Muslims and Islamic faith. I hope you realize in Singapore, your actions willfully attack people of a certain faith.
Anyway I suppose you are already prepared since you know your personal opinions have grave implications for yourself.
Jarhum, do stop your threats to others who differ from your opinion. Everyone has a right to their freedom of expression, including yours. 'Wilful attack?' Ignorance perhaps.
Patience and a sincere desire to change perceptions to a common ground would be a better and more productive effort than to threaten with a chopper knife! This makes you no better the Israeli army whom you claim are 'committing atrocities' on the palestinians!
It is because of people like you that perpetrate ignorance and suspicions because of 'sensitivities' and thus keep issues hidden and in the dark, while you continue to push ramrod your bias agenda thru with threats to others who differs from yours and only unconciously seeks to know more.
And you dare call yourself a political scientist? I hope it is not from those uncredited universities that you pay $5 for a degree.
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A glimmer of hope befalls Gaza - a possible truce.
The credit belongs to everyone in the world who is concerned for the innocents on both sides and had prayed and voice out to their leaders to call for a truce.
But more credit espacially to the moderate muslims who had swayed hardened minds not to support, provide funds or recruits to the terrorist organisation Hamas, which made them realized it is time to stop.
Should a truce occur, it is at best only fragile. There is much to do to strengthen it.
Israel must continue to find the best ways to change mindsets and not resort to bullets as the way to solve issues. It will not be an overnight change, but will take time and patience. The rest of the world, non-muslims and muslims as well, must take effort to listen and help too.
Many a grieving mother had watch their children die with an Israeli bullet or bomb, even though the blame falls equally on Hamas too. There must be a time and patience for sensitivities to heal, with an ultimate desire for a better tomorrow for all.No point in dredging up the past. Mistakes had been made by all. Who amongst us is perfect?. There is no way to change the past, but we all have the choice and free will to build a better peaceful tomorrow, if not for ourselves, at least for the next generation. They are born fully innocent. We, this generation, owe them that much.
The leaders of Hamas must be brought to trial for their terrorist acts, given a fair trial and if guilty, must be made to pay the price for their errors and mis-using religion to destroy thousands of lives. The dead and their living loved ones demands of it, if not the millions of faithful muslims around the world shamed by their blasphemous destruction of a peaceful religion..
The men of Hamas must be given a chance to be properly rehabilated to rejoin and contribute back to society, for they are only following orders and had been mindlessly corrupted by their leaders. The Koran is just, but is merciful to those with remorse as well.
The world must give strength to the Palestinians to be not afraid of Hamas and stand up to them, turn them in to the authorities for inflicting worse suffering and death to them.
They are NOT freedom fighters. No freedom fighter will hide amongst them drawing fire and hide weapons in sancified Mosques, schools, hospitals, UN centres, etc.
The UN will continue its aid to Palestine, and no one, no one, must abuse it or hijack it to promote their political cause and make use of the Palestinians again. They, like the Israelis, have a right to the 4 freedoms espoused by one of the few great men that walk thru this planet and influenced lives - Franklin Roosevelt, during a time when the world was colonnised, raped and enslaved. .
I guess this post is too much to hope for. Who will listen anyway....
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Xtreyier, well done kid.
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Round up all the Zionist war criminals and hang them in a Nuremberg like trial and then people will see that there is good faith in peace process. They did it in the case of Bosnia and they can do it for Israel. That is if they really are peacemakers. Otherwise, no one will listen to Jew doublespeak.
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OMG, looks like peoples here are at war too, Zionist Vs Hamas, nothing to do with me, me pub and puppies, better leave.
On the contrary, how can peoples attain peace when even a discussion here can turn violent. Can imagine how much more violences btw Palestine and Israel will be.
Aiya, eat my Kitkat.
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They were heavily infested with Hamas militants
"This war is also child's play because of its victims. About a third of those killed in Gaza have been children - 311, according to the Palestinian Health Ministry, 270 according to the B'Tselem human rights group - out of the 1,000 total killed as of Wednesday. Around 1,550 of the 4,500 wounded have also been children according to figures from the UN, which says the number of children killed has tripled since the ground operation began.
This is too large a proportion by any humanitarian or ethical standard....
It is enough to look at the pictures coming from Shifa Hospital to see how many burned, bleeding and dying children now lie there. History has seen innumerable brutal wars take countless lives.
But the horrifying proportion of this war, a third of the dead being children, has not been seen in recent memory....
One can say Hamas hides among the civilian population, as if the Defense Ministry in Tel Aviv is not located in the heart of a civilian population, as if there are places in Gaza that are not in the heart of a civilian population. One can also claim that Hamas uses children as human shields, as if in the past our own organizations fighting to establish a country did not recruit children.
A significant majority of the children killed in Gaza did not die because they were used as human shields or because they worked for Hamas. They were killed because the IDF bombed, shelled or fired at them, their families or their apartment buildings. That is why the blood of Gaza's children is on our hands, not on Hamas' hands, and we will never be able to escape that responsibility."- The IDF has no mercy for the children in Gaza nursery schools
The bomb is not banned. It is unfortunate that Hamas military activities always take place in civilian places, making it dificult to enforce the guidelines for using phospherous bombs.
"Video showing injuries consistent with the use of white phosphorus shells has been filmed inside hospitals treating Palestinian wounded in Gaza City.
Contact with the shell remnants causes severe burns, sometimes burning the skin to the bone, consistent with descriptions by Ahmed Almi, an Egyptian doctor at the al-Nasser hospital in Khan Younis.
Almi said the entire body of one victim was burned within an hour. It was the first time he had seen the effects of what he called a "chemical weapon".
The Israeli military has denied using white phosphorus during the assault on Gaza, but aid agencies say they have no doubt it has been used.
"It is an absolute certainty," said Marc Garlasco, a senior military analyst at Human Rights Watch. He had seen Israeli artillery fire white phosphorus shells at Gaza City, Garlasco said.
...
Human Rights Watch compares the use of white phosphorus shells over Gaza to the impact of cluster munitions, which scatter "bomblets" over a wide area. Children may kick and play with a lump of phosphorus, stirring up the embers and producing more fire and smoke.
The use of white phosphorus as a weapon – as opposed to its use as an obscurant and infrared blocking smoke screen – is banned by the UN's third convention on conventional weapons, which covers the use of incendiary devices. Though Israel is not a signatory to the convention, its military manuals reflect the convention's restrictions on using white phosphorus.
[Now, what is the difference when even though it may be claimed that it is used as a "smokescreen", but ends up harming and killing hundreds of civilians. Isn't that a definition of a weapon?]
Israel initially claimed that it was not using white phosphorus. It later explained that shells being loaded for a howitzer, identified from photographs as phosphorus rounds, were empty "quiet" shells used for target marking. However, images of exploding shells and showering burning fragments are now acknowledged by independent observers as having been phosphorus.
At the centre of the controversy is the way white phosphorus air burst shells have been used in heavily built-up urban areas, with an overwhelmingly civilian population.
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- Video shows evidence of phosphorus bombs in Gaza
No concrete evidence. If IDF is accused of mass-killing civilians, what's the point of IDF holding families as human shields?
Massing-killing civilians by indiscriminate bombing is different from using families as human shields as one is conducted from the air while the other is a tactic used by ground troops. Of course you will deny it even though Amnesty International accuses Israel of the crime. In the first place, you are not willing to accept that the Israeli military, just like all militaries, are trained to kill, but in this case, the killing is mostly the murder of civilians under the guise of killing Hamas members.
"Donatella Rovera, an Amnesty investigator in Israel, is quoted in today's Guardian as saying: "It's standard practice for Israeli soldiers to go into a house, lock up the family in a room on the ground floor and use the rest of the house as a military base, as a sniper's position. That is the absolute textbook case of human shields.
"It has been practised by the Israeli army for many years and they are doing it again in Gaza now."
Here's your proof:
Israeli [Army] using Palestinian Kids as Human Shields
IDF to appeal human shield ban
When Hamas does it, everyone condemns it. But when Israel engages in it, people like you disregard it and even when Israel is caught doing it, its alright given how the IDF shows it audacity by appealing to the Israeli Supreme Court to continue the practice. That sure makes a lot of sense. Israel HAS been caught doing it, and when Amnesty International, working to relieve the humanitarian crisis on the ground in the Gaza reports on it, of course I would believe it rather than your biased reasoning based on ZERO experience that you need proof that you wouldnt even accept. And of course Israel doesnt want news of this kind getting out, thats why they have prevented the foreign media from accessing the Gaza Strip, even when an Israeli High Court allows them access. Again, dont ignore this blatent violation of Israel's own Laws and legal system.
UN and red cross ambulances are known to have transport Hamas militants.
Injured militants or ambulances that have been hijacked? The video you posted didnt make that clear. In the first place, it is a violations of the Geneva Convention to deny medical treatment to the wounded, which Israel is doing. Then, even if the ambulance has been hijacked, it doesnt provide future immunity to Israel to attack the property and personnel of international humanitarian organisations. If so, then how the hell are the Palestinian people supposed to get aid?
"ISRAELI shells set ablaze a food warehouse at UN headquarters in Gaza yesterday, destroying tons of emergency rations intended for needy Gaza civilians, a senior UN official said.
...
Israel's prime minister, Ehud Olmert, said the military fired artillery shells at the UN compound after Hamas militants opened fire from the location, a version of events John Ging, director of Unwra in Gaza, rejected as "nonsense"
Mr Ging said Israeli shells first hit a courtyard filled with refugees, then struck garages and the UN's main warehouse, sending thousands of tons of food aid up in flames. Later, fuel supplies ignited, sending a thick plume of smoke into the air....Gordon Brown, the Prime Minister, called the attack "indefensible", saying the UN's mission in Gaza "is purely humanitarian, bringing relief to civilians suffering in appalling conditions as a result of the ongoing military actions and restrictions on food and medical supplies entering Gaza".
..."
I doubt it. Show evidence for us(or me) to verify.
Obviously you are not prepared to acknowledge any wrong-doing on the IDF's side even when the death toll is staring right in front of you. I already said, I'm not condoning or siding with Hamas (it is clear that Hamas has committed and is committing acts of terrorism), my case is to present the overlooked side of the story that you and other immovable Israel supporters have willfully ignored. If you cannot even acknowledge wrong when it is committed, how can you claim to be objective (despite all your caustic comments)?
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Originally posted by xtreyier:
A glimmer of hope befalls Gaza - a possible truce.
The credit belongs to everyone in the world who is concerned for the innocents on both sides and had prayed and voice out to their leaders to call for a truce.
But more credit espacially to the moderate muslims who had swayed hardened minds not to support, provide funds or recruits to the terrorist organisation Hamas, which made them realized it is time to stop.
Should a truce occur, it is at best only fragile. There is much to do to strengthen it.
Israel must continue to find the best ways to change mindsets and not resort to bullets as the way to solve issues. It will not be an overnight change, but will take time and patience. The rest of the world, non-muslims and muslims as well, must take effort to listen and help too.
Many a grieving mother had watch their children die with an Israeli bullet or bomb, even though the blame falls equally on Hamas too. There must be a time and patience for sensitivities to heal, with an ultimate desire for a better tomorrow for all.No point in dredging up the past. Mistakes had been made by all. Who amongst us is perfect?. There is no way to change the past, but we all have the choice and free will to build a better peaceful tomorrow, if not for ourselves, at least for the next generation. They are born fully innocent. We, this generation, owe them that much.
The leaders of Hamas must be brought to trial for their terrorist acts, given a fair trial and if guilty, must be made to pay the price for their errors and mis-using religion to destroy thousands of lives. The dead and their living loved ones demands of it, if not the millions of faithful muslims around the world shamed by their blasphemous destruction of a peaceful religion..
The men of Hamas must be given a chance to be properly rehabilated to rejoin and contribute back to society, for they are only following orders and had been mindlessly corrupted by their leaders. The Koran is just, but is merciful to those with remorse as well.
The world must give strength to the Palestinians to be not afraid of Hamas and stand up to them, turn them in to the authorities for inflicting worse suffering and death to them.
They are NOT freedom fighters. No freedom fighter will hide amongst them drawing fire and hide weapons in sancified Mosques, schools, hospitals, UN centres, etc.
The UN will continue its aid to Palestine, and no one, no one, must abuse it or hijack it to promote their political cause and make use of the Palestinians again. They, like the Israelis, have a right to the 4 freedoms espoused by one of the few great men that walk thru this planet and influenced lives - Franklin Roosevelt, during a time when the world was colonnised, raped and enslaved. .
I guess this post is too much to hope for. Who will listen anyway....
"The leaders of Hamas must be brought to trial for their terrorist acts, given a fair trial and if guilty, must be made to pay the price for their errors and mis-using religion to destroy thousands of lives. The dead and their living loved ones demands of it, if not the millions of faithful muslims around the world shamed by their blasphemous destruction of a peaceful religion.."
What about the Israeli military and political leadership for their blatant violation of human rights laws? They get off scot-free just for inserting the Hamas excuse? Germans were hanged at Nuremburg for saying they were just obeying orders. Again, I'm not denying Hamas' wrong-doing. Just be fair and acknowledge the war crimes of the IDF and the Israeli leadership.
The world must give strength to the Palestinians to be not afraid of Hamas and stand up to them, turn them in to the authorities for inflicting worse suffering and death to them.
Because the Palestinians voted Hamas in, they should be punished for it? Collective punishment is a war crime by UN standards. Hamas cannot be the government despite the will of the people? Who is making the decision here? Obviously, Hamas cannot be allowed to rule because it goes against the interest of Israel and the western world. Democracy is ok only when it doesnt pose a threat to Israeli and Western hegemony.
The UN will continue its aid to Palestine, and no one, no one, must abuse it or hijack it to promote their political cause and make use of the Palestinians again. They, like the Israelis, have a right to the 4 freedoms espoused by one of the few great men that walk thru this planet and influenced lives - Franklin Roosevelt, during a time when the world was colonnised, raped and enslaved. .
Because of the IDF attack on a UN facility, of which:
"Israel's prime minister, Ehud Olmert, said the military fired artillery shells at the UN compound after Hamas militants opened fire from the location, a version of events John Ging, director of Unwra in Gaza, rejected as "nonsense"
- Israeli 'phosphorous shells' incinerate 1,000s of tons of UN food as Gaza starves
, the UN has stopped operations in Gaza, which means that the Palestinians will languish without aid. Meaning, the world is still colonised, raped and enslaved.
No point in dredging up the past. Mistakes had been made by all. Who amongst us is perfect?. There is no way to change the past, but we all have the choice and free will to build a better peaceful tomorrow, if not for ourselves, at least for the next generation. They are born fully innocent. We, this generation, owe them that much.
Otherwise, I fully agree that there is no point dredging up the past. Jarhum, joojoobeach and Shotgun are just having a pointless debate without focusing on present events.
The leaders of Hamas must be brought to trial for their terrorist acts, given a fair trial and if guilty, must be made to pay the price for their errors and mis-using religion to destroy thousands of lives. The dead and their living loved ones demands of it, if not the millions of faithful muslims around the world shamed by their blasphemous destruction of a peaceful religion..
Finally...good to know that you recognise that they are human beings as well and should be treated as such.
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Tho as an Angel, i do pity the childrens, but too bad they are born in such countries where peoples killed each other in the names of God, God must be crying again. He said it is better to die than to live in such countries or else when they grew up, they will still go to war and kill.
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Angel, that is exactly what Palestinian children are indoctrinated to believe.
11-year-old Palestinians: Martyrdom better than this world
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8dPb1bF-s4MIndoctrinated Palestinian 3 Year Old
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YeTqheFnBM0&feature=relatedHamas Uses Mickey Mouse Look-Alike teaching racism to kids
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s70KlZwb9RE&NR=1The seed of violence and racism that were sown into the Palestinian children at such age. Tell me there isn't something wrong with the Palestinian people as a society?
There will be no end to this violence until Hamas is destroyed, and the Palestinians re-educated.
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Originally posted by Shotgun:
Angel, that is exactly what Palestinian children are indoctrinated to believe.
11-year-old Palestinians: Martyrdom better than this world
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8dPb1bF-s4MIndoctrinated Palestinian 3 Year Old
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YeTqheFnBM0&feature=relatedHamas Uses Mickey Mouse Look-Alike teaching racism to kids
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s70KlZwb9RE&NR=1The seed of violence and racism that were sown into the Palestinian children at such age. Tell me there isn't something wrong with the Palestinian people as a society?
There will be no end to this violence until Hamas is destroyed, and the Palestinians re-educated.
But why are they indoctrinated to begin with? If Israel is oppressing and bombing your home, killing your friends and relatives, wouldnt a Palestinian child grow up to hate Israel, making him susceptible to indoctrination? Today, the childhood of most Palestinian children consists of seeing soldiers firing at them, at beholding the splattered remains of human flesh, seeing their friends, relatives and teachers get shot or blown up right in front of them. How can a child have a normal life in such a circumstance? How can anyone?
You are right, something is wrong with Palestinian society. Psychologically, they are probably the most traumatised society in the world (though I'm not forgotting civil-war ravaged African countries).
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So indoctrination to violence and suicide bombings is correct because Israel bombs them cos some previous Hamas fighters does the same?
Don't you see you are perpetuating the cycle rather than breaking it?
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I didnt say that violence and suicide bombings are correct. Where ever did I say it, or imply it? Where?
How would you end this cycle then? As I said, Israel is fueling this crisis by bombing and continuing to oppress the Palestinians. But at the same time, the hatred fueled by fundamentalism is also too ingrained into the Palestinian consciousness to be forgotten. But then, why can Palestinian and Arab activists come together with Israeli activists to protest the genocide in Gaza?
I dont think this conflict will end that easily. Even if some Palestinians and Arabs can unite with Israelis for the sake of peace, the majority of their respective populations will continue to hate each other, incited by those who want to see the conflict continue. I agree when Stevenson said that as long as either people survive, this conflict will continue. Either all the Palestinians or the Israelis will have to be wiped out for this drawn-out conflict to end.
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I've mentioned before. Disband Hamas. Surrender all weapons and personnel.
There is no way Hamas can defeat Israel, hence the only logical thing to do to stop the fighting that is killing innoncent people is for them to surrender.
Then, let the United Nations figure out what to do.
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Originally posted by freedomclub:
They were heavily infested with Hamas militants
"This war is also child's play because of its victims. About a third of those killed in Gaza have been children - 311, according to the Palestinian Health Ministry, 270 according to the B'Tselem human rights group - out of the 1,000 total killed as of Wednesday. Around 1,550 of the 4,500 wounded have also been children according to figures from the UN, which says the number of children killed has tripled since the ground operation began.
This is too large a proportion by any humanitarian or ethical standard....
It is enough to look at the pictures coming from Shifa Hospital to see how many burned, bleeding and dying children now lie there. History has seen innumerable brutal wars take countless lives.
But the horrifying proportion of this war, a third of the dead being children, has not been seen in recent memory....
One can say Hamas hides among the civilian population, as if the Defense Ministry in Tel Aviv is not located in the heart of a civilian population, as if there are places in Gaza that are not in the heart of a civilian population. One can also claim that Hamas uses children as human shields, as if in the past our own organizations fighting to establish a country did not recruit children.
A significant majority of the children killed in Gaza did not die because they were used as human shields or because they worked for Hamas. They were killed because the IDF bombed, shelled or fired at them, their families or their apartment buildings. That is why the blood of Gaza's children is on our hands, not on Hamas' hands, and we will never be able to escape that responsibility."- The IDF has no mercy for the children in Gaza nursery schools
The bomb is not banned. It is unfortunate that Hamas military activities always take place in civilian places, making it dificult to enforce the guidelines for using phospherous bombs.
"Video showing injuries consistent with the use of white phosphorus shells has been filmed inside hospitals treating Palestinian wounded in Gaza City.
Contact with the shell remnants causes severe burns, sometimes burning the skin to the bone, consistent with descriptions by Ahmed Almi, an Egyptian doctor at the al-Nasser hospital in Khan Younis.
Almi said the entire body of one victim was burned within an hour. It was the first time he had seen the effects of what he called a "chemical weapon".
The Israeli military has denied using white phosphorus during the assault on Gaza, but aid agencies say they have no doubt it has been used.
"It is an absolute certainty," said Marc Garlasco, a senior military analyst at Human Rights Watch. He had seen Israeli artillery fire white phosphorus shells at Gaza City, Garlasco said.
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Human Rights Watch compares the use of white phosphorus shells over Gaza to the impact of cluster munitions, which scatter "bomblets" over a wide area. Children may kick and play with a lump of phosphorus, stirring up the embers and producing more fire and smoke.
The use of white phosphorus as a weapon – as opposed to its use as an obscurant and infrared blocking smoke screen – is banned by the UN's third convention on conventional weapons, which covers the use of incendiary devices. Though Israel is not a signatory to the convention, its military manuals reflect the convention's restrictions on using white phosphorus.
[Now, what is the difference when even though it may be claimed that it is used as a "smokescreen", but ends up harming and killing hundreds of civilians. Isn't that a definition of a weapon?]
Israel initially claimed that it was not using white phosphorus. It later explained that shells being loaded for a howitzer, identified from photographs as phosphorus rounds, were empty "quiet" shells used for target marking. However, images of exploding shells and showering burning fragments are now acknowledged by independent observers as having been phosphorus.
At the centre of the controversy is the way white phosphorus air burst shells have been used in heavily built-up urban areas, with an overwhelmingly civilian population.
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- Video shows evidence of phosphorus bombs in Gaza
No concrete evidence. If IDF is accused of mass-killing civilians, what's the point of IDF holding families as human shields?
Massing-killing civilians by indiscriminate bombing is different from using families as human shields as one is conducted from the air while the other is a tactic used by ground troops. Of course you will deny it even though Amnesty International accuses Israel of the crime. In the first place, you are not willing to accept that the Israeli military, just like all militaries, are trained to kill, but in this case, the killing is mostly the murder of civilians under the guise of killing Hamas members.
"Donatella Rovera, an Amnesty investigator in Israel, is quoted in today's Guardian as saying: "It's standard practice for Israeli soldiers to go into a house, lock up the family in a room on the ground floor and use the rest of the house as a military base, as a sniper's position. That is the absolute textbook case of human shields.
"It has been practised by the Israeli army for many years and they are doing it again in Gaza now."
Here's your proof:
Israeli [Army] using Palestinian Kids as Human Shields
IDF to appeal human shield ban
When Hamas does it, everyone condemns it. But when Israel engages in it, people like you disregard it and even when Israel is caught doing it, its alright given how the IDF shows it audacity by appealing to the Israeli Supreme Court to continue the practice. That sure makes a lot of sense. Israel HAS been caught doing it, and when Amnesty International, working to relieve the humanitarian crisis on the ground in the Gaza reports on it, of course I would believe it rather than your biased reasoning based on ZERO experience that you need proof that you wouldnt even accept. And of course Israel doesnt want news of this kind getting out, thats why they have prevented the foreign media from accessing the Gaza Strip, even when an Israeli High Court allows them access. Again, dont ignore this blatent violation of Israel's own Laws and legal system.
UN and red cross ambulances are known to have transport Hamas militants.
Injured militants or ambulances that have been hijacked? The video you posted didnt make that clear. In the first place, it is a violations of the Geneva Convention to deny medical treatment to the wounded, which Israel is doing. Then, even if the ambulance has been hijacked, it doesnt provide future immunity to Israel to attack the property and personnel of international humanitarian organisations. If so, then how the hell are the Palestinian people supposed to get aid?
"ISRAELI shells set ablaze a food warehouse at UN headquarters in Gaza yesterday, destroying tons of emergency rations intended for needy Gaza civilians, a senior UN official said.
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Israel's prime minister, Ehud Olmert, said the military fired artillery shells at the UN compound after Hamas militants opened fire from the location, a version of events John Ging, director of Unwra in Gaza, rejected as "nonsense"
Mr Ging said Israeli shells first hit a courtyard filled with refugees, then struck garages and the UN's main warehouse, sending thousands of tons of food aid up in flames. Later, fuel supplies ignited, sending a thick plume of smoke into the air....Gordon Brown, the Prime Minister, called the attack "indefensible", saying the UN's mission in Gaza "is purely humanitarian, bringing relief to civilians suffering in appalling conditions as a result of the ongoing military actions and restrictions on food and medical supplies entering Gaza".
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I doubt it. Show evidence for us(or me) to verify.
Obviously you are not prepared to acknowledge any wrong-doing on the IDF's side even when the death toll is staring right in front of you. I already said, I'm not condoning or siding with Hamas (it is clear that Hamas has committed and is committing acts of terrorism), my case is to present the overlooked side of the story that you and other immovable Israel supporters have willfully ignored. If you cannot even acknowledge wrong when it is committed, how can you claim to be objective (despite all your caustic comments)?
When the Hamas used its citizens as human shields, everyone condoned it. When IDF used an enemy as bait, everyone condemned it.
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Originally posted by googoomuck:
When the Hamas used its citizens as human shields, everyone condoned it. When IDF used an enemy as bait, everyone condemned it.
No one is condoning Hamas' practice of using human shields. It is clear to any one with a conscience that it is wrong. But to overlook the same crime committed by Israel is equally wrong. After so many posts, can you understand that?
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Originally posted by Shotgun:
I've mentioned before. Disband Hamas. Surrender all weapons and personnel.
There is no way Hamas can defeat Israel, hence the only logical thing to do to stop the fighting that is killing innoncent people is for them to surrender.
Then, let the United Nations figure out what to do.
Right, as if the UN has a rich history of successfully protecting and managing poor and weak countries with no ways of defending themselves from economically and politically powerful countries.
Hamas will probably never disband because the western world is perceived as biased against it. If a country or people dont have the ability to defend itself, then we'll just be back at square 1. Israel will start exploiting them and begin the cycle of violence again. Might is right although we like to say it isn't.
Granted the UN has altruistic intentions (a big assumption), but its capabilities are horribly handicapped by its member contributors. Rather, the UN, the WB/IMF and others are just tools of the western countries to subjugate poorer countries. The UN may be able to MONITOR a crisis, but as to whether it is effective in resolving the crisis impartially is a big question. While a food crisis is being touted, world food production is 1.5 times current consumption. The problem is that the world's poor cannot afford food because of the corporate monopolisation of the world's food supply. While the WB/ IMF calls for Third World countries to abolish their tariffs to allow cheaper imports into their market, domestic food industries are destroyed. In their place, cash crops are produced by giant corporations displacing food production. All while the EU and the US subsidises their agriculture to the tune of billions per year (EU subsidy/ cow = $2 = Daily wage of the world's 3 billion poor) and the UN, WB/IMF and the WTO says nothing, or do anything about it.
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Palestinian militants using UN ambulance as transport.
A robot collecting the explosive charge
that was hidden inside a "Red Crescent" ambulance.Picture below showed a Palestinian militant loading a rocket onto a UN ambulance under cover of the night. Maybe it's just a folded stretcher.
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Originally posted by Shotgun:
So indoctrination to violence and suicide bombings is correct because Israel bombs them cos some previous Hamas fighters does the same?
Don't you see you are perpetuating the cycle rather than breaking it?
I'm sure i'm accurate in stating that Hamas was voted in by the Palestinian people, meaning a significant portion of the Palestinian people agrees with Hamas' doctrines, am i correct to put it that way ?
Meaning what Hamas is doing, is being supported by the Palestinian people at least in the Gaza strip. You keep speaking of Hamas as if it is a seperate entity, as if Hamas is forcing the Palestinian people at gunpoint to fire rockets at Israel.
And the links you posted.
Indoctrinated Palestinian 3 Year Old
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YeTqheFnBM0&feature=relatedThis is published by a Saudi Arabia Television network. There is no mention of whether the girl was a Palestinian or not. You just believed the title and didn't watch the content.
11-year-old Palestinians: Martyrdom better than this world
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8dPb1bF-s4MThis is published by the Palestinian Media Watch. Do not let the name deceive you because it is not headed by Palestinians, but by Itamar Marcus, a Israeli counter terrorism analyst. There is already a conflict on interest on producing this video.
Hamas Uses Mickey Mouse Look-Alike teaching racism to kids
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s70KlZwb9RE&NR=1The same, published by the Palestinian Media Watch.
First and foremost, none of us knows Arabic (Or whatever dialect that the Palestinian people uses) So whether the language used in the video is accurate or not we do not know and i do not understand why there must be English subtitles for a children show for the Palestinian people, and considering that they only have 1 coal fired power plant, with constant breakdowns i find it difficult to believe they even have the electricity power for televisions.
You don't even question the information you are feeding yourself with, what makes you think you really understand the situation ?
You have shown great courtesy in being civil in this discussion and i am compelled to do the same. However, i must need to point out the flaws in your reasoning for this debate to be meaningful
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Originally posted by googoomuck:
Palestinian militants using UN ambulance as transport.
A robot collecting the explosive charge
that was hidden inside a "Red Crescent" ambulance.Picture below showed a Palestinian militant loading a rocket onto a UN ambulance under cover of the night. Maybe it's just a folded stretcher.
You just post videos and photos under the heading of Palestinian militants.
Yet i see nothing in the videos that state its origin, or whether if it's even Palestinians in it. Please provide more information to better clarify what we're seeing.
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Bolivia and Venezuela break off diplomatic relations with Israel
LA PAZ/CARACAS, January 14.— Bolivia and Venezuela today broke off diplomatic relations with Israel over the aggression against the Palestinian people in Gaza, which has left more than 1,000 dead and close to 4,600 wounded.
According to PL, Bolivian President Evo Morales made the announcement on Wednesday, January 15 during an audience with the accredited diplomatic corps in La Paz and explained, “Bolivia had diplomatic relations with Israel, but in the face of these grave events, attacks on life and humanity, Bolivia is breaking off its diplomatic relations with Israel.”
In a Telesur report, the president also noted that the country’s authorities are to bring a formal complaint against the Israeli state to the International Criminal Court regarding the attacks on the Gaza Strip, and called for an urgent extraordinary meeting of the UN General Assembly to cast a vote of condemnation for the Zionist aggression against the Palestinian people.
Meanwhile, news of the rupture between Caracas and Tel Aviv was reported in a communiqué from the Ministry of Foreign Affairs, which described the brutal attacks of the Zionist army as “genocide.”
The Venezuelan government decided to expel Israeli ambassador Shlomo Cohen and part of the diplomatic corps in Caracas on Tuesday, January 6
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<Palestinian Media Watch has been playing the critical role of documenting the contradictions between the image the Palestinians present to the world in English and the messages to their own people in Arabic. The world’s view of the Palestinian Authority, to a significant degree, is the result of Palestinian Media Watch research.
Itamar Marcus is director of Palestinian Media Watch.>
I think PMW is credible, especially in the Arabic-English translation. Otherwise there will be a worldwide Arab outrage.