Wages and cost of living relation, what went wrong...
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Originally posted by AndrewPKYap:
ass can hv words meh??? OMG, this is getting serious, call ambalance...hello, IMH,..,.Help, my Uncle is in critical condition...huh! what press 1 for english..press 2 for chinese...damn!! i hate auto voice phone!!! -
Originally posted by angel7030:
Are you kidding, wonder how can u be a business man?Inflation can determine a minimium wage, so too is cost of living. If given a chance, most western govt would like to abolish minimium wages, but their Unions would hv created a big big strike.
Wages should be set as flexible as possible, this is to prevent retrenchment leading high amount of jobless and in the end social chaos, for those unskilled jobless peoples, they will think of crimes, for those talented jobless, they will think of scam. No govt in any country will like to see jobless, the best is that all have jobs. Once peoples have jobs, they will think of other stupid thing to do, but of course for some peoples, they are lazy bums who dun wan to work even given a job, and then just like my Uncles...start to blame here and there, cos Uncles got no job, more time for comment and complain.
During good times, minimium wage are usually negotiated upward in countries with minimium wages, no problem, everyone is happy with it, but in Bad times, their unions and workers will fight all the way to prevent lowering of minimium wage set in good times, that created an inflexibility in the wages. And legally speaking the workers are on the right, cos the law already state min wage criteria. So, it become a hard time for companies to survive in these countries with minimium wages. And when the govt wanted to lower the minimium wages, street protests and strikes leading to a lose lose situation for all parties. Look at the Europeans, if they dun have degrees or skills, good luck to them, they can hardly find an operator job anymore.
Ours wages adopt a flexible wage system, just like liquidity, make it as soluable as possible. Our govt even implemented MVC, a variable component to allow wage cut in time of downturn, you may not appreciate these system in good time, but let me tell you, it work wonder in Bad time. A lot of job was saved. The govt also pour money to upgrade the skill of only Singaporeans who are instead of retrenched, were sent by the companies to take full time courses by paying nearly 80% of their salaries and when the economy is good again, Singaporeans can then be ploughed back to their own organisation with higher skill and education.
Col SS Angel
Nazi Wage system HR
Valkyrie Office
Questions:
- How sure are you that Western countries want to abolish the minimum wage system? Where did you learn of this info?
- How sure are you that a flexible wage system = lesser retrenchments? After all, our unemployment rate aren't really the lowest in the world. Do you also know that in Singapore, workers have minimum protection and that you can lose your job ANYTIME, regardless whether you perform or not?
- Why do you think a minimum wage system MUST allow mandatory increases during good times? Why do you also think that a minimum wage system will lead to protests, strikes, etc? Are protests, strikes a consequence of the minimum wage system, or a consequence of the type of society in a country?
Just to let you know, that foreign MNCs in Singapore don't follow the stupid MVC component thing. It's only the Singapore local firms that take advantage of that and squeeze the locals harder by making a substantial part of the locals' wages fall into the MVC.
I highly disbelieve in the MVC component, especially since foreign companies don't buy such stuff. If you are prepared to hire, HIRE. What is this rubbish about MVC? Why not just freeze bonuses during bad times? It's so much easier than putting in another stupid variable component (which really can just be easier managed as a bonus) and making things more complicated.
In the local MNC I was in previously, they don't even bother about the MVC component during bad times, choosing to just freeze pay, or cut jobs.
If you feel that what I said about MVC is wrong, then show us statistics on how MVC helps us. I see no practical usage of it during my years of work.
- How sure are you that Western countries want to abolish the minimum wage system? Where did you learn of this info?
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Originally posted by soul_rage:
Questions:
- How sure are you that Western countries want to abolish the minimum wage system? Where did you learn of this info?
- How sure are you that a flexible wage system = lesser retrenchments? After all, our unemployment rate aren't really the lowest in the world. Do you also know that in Singapore, workers have minimum protection and that you can lose your job ANYTIME, regardless whether you perform or not?
- Why do you think a minimum wage system MUST allow mandatory increases during good times? Why do you also think that a minimum wage system will lead to protests, strikes, etc? Are protests, strikes a consequence of the minimum wage system, or a consequence of the type of society in a country?
Just to let you know, that foreign MNCs in Singapore don't follow the stupid MVC component thing. It's only the Singapore local firms that take advantage of that and squeeze the locals harder by making a substantial part of the locals' wages fall into the MVC.
I highly disbelieve in the MVC component, especially since foreign companies don't buy such stuff. If you are prepared to hire, HIRE. What is this rubbish about MVC? Why not just freeze bonuses during bad times? It's so much easier than putting in another stupid variable component (which really can just be easier managed as a bonus) and making things more complicated.
In the local MNC I was in previously, they don't even bother about the MVC component during bad times, choosing to just freeze pay, or cut jobs.
If you feel that what I said about MVC is wrong, then show us statistics on how MVC helps us. I see no practical usage of it during my years of work.
Recently british given away most of it low skill and labouring jobs to Italy workers who dun mind getting lower pay than the minimum wages. Same goes to Mexicans and south americans who went up north to take up lower paid jobs in America that the owners are allowed to pay them below minimium wage standards. The govt of these countries actually wanted to abolish welfare funds and also minimum wages so as to allow flexibilities in term of market condition. In the case of GM motors, Obama had pointed out to the Unions, you either except wage cut to below minimium wages or no bailing out. Same goes to their executive minimium wage critieras.However since colonisation, alots of western countries and some asian colonised countries adopted welfare fund and minimium wages. Yes, as a citizen you are part of the country, you are eligble for welfare fund if the country govt dun provide a job for you, but however alot of abuse were taken to lay hand on the welfare fund, it is not that there is no jobs, it just some people dun wan to work and gives lots of excuses, all these only encourage laziness, non competitive, lack of performance and weak productivity.
Minimium wages tends increase during good times, because labour competition will be tight, alots of workers is needed, it is a labour market improvement, so unions will take this opportunity to demand for higher min wage, at that time, the desparate employers would agree to it, and the govt in good times will raise the min wages and demand for labour increase.
But then when the bad times arrived, do you think the workers and their unions are willing to forgo and reduce the minimum wages...not without a fight that can cause chaos to the country economy and strike that can move companies out of the country.
You are wrong, MVC do helped both public and private sector, it is under mandatory laws that MVC must be negiotate first before retrenchment and retrenchment is the last resort. Sony reduced it MVC once, so is HP, so is Siemen, so are many others, but of course not all successful, after MVC reduction, company still cannot maintain it cost, then retrenchment sat in. In whatever the popularity of MVC or other variable components in salary structure, it act as a buffer as far as it can withhold, but of course if a company tell the govt that cutting MVC also cannot survive, then that is it.
I hope i answered some of yr question, usually I am being paid for being a CON- sultant. Gst included
- How sure are you that Western countries want to abolish the minimum wage system? Where did you learn of this info?
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Originally posted by soul_rage:
Questions:
- How sure are you that Western countries want to abolish the
minimum wage system? Where did you learn of this info?
- How sure are you that a flexible wage system = lesser
retrenchments? After all, our unemployment rate aren't really the
lowest in the world. Do you also know that in Singapore, workers
have minimum protection and that you can lose your job ANYTIME,
regardless whether you perform or not?
- Why do you think a minimum wage system MUST allow mandatory increases during good times? Why do you also think that a minimum wage system will lead to protests, strikes, etc? Are protests, strikes a consequence of the minimum wage system, or a consequence of the type of society in a country?
Just to let you know, that foreign MNCs in Singapore don't follow the stupid MVC component thing. It's only the Singapore local firms that take advantage of that and squeeze the locals harder by making a substantial part of the locals' wages fall into the MVC.
I highly disbelieve in the MVC component, especially since foreign companies don't buy such stuff. If you are prepared to hire, HIRE. What is this rubbish about MVC? Why not just freeze bonuses during bad times? It's so much easier than putting in another stupid variable component (which really can just be easier managed as a bonus) and making things more complicated.
In the local MNC I was in previously, they don't even bother about the MVC component during bad times, choosing to just freeze pay, or cut jobs.
If you feel that what I said about MVC is wrong, then show us statistics on how MVC helps us. I see no practical usage of it during my years of work.
Because of no effective enforcement.
- How sure are you that Western countries want to abolish the
minimum wage system? Where did you learn of this info?
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Originally posted by angel7030:
Recently british given away most of it low skill and labouring jobs to Italy workers who dun mind getting lower pay than the minimum wages. Same goes to Mexicans and south americans who went up north to take up lower paid jobs in America that the owners are allowed to pay them below minimium wage standards. The govt of these countries actually wanted to abolish welfare funds and also minimum wages so as to allow flexibilities in term of market condition. In the case of GM motors, Obama had pointed out to the Unions, you either except wage cut to below minimium wages or no bailing out. Same goes to their executive minimium wage critieras.However since colonisation, alots of western countries and some asian colonised countries adopted welfare fund and minimium wages. Yes, as a citizen you are part of the country, you are eligble for welfare fund if the country govt dun provide a job for you, but however alot of abuse were taken to lay hand on the welfare fund, it is not that there is no jobs, it just some people dun wan to work and gives lots of excuses, all these only encourage laziness, non competitive, lack of performance and weak productivity.
Minimium wages tends increase during good times, because labour competition will be tight, alots of workers is needed, it is a labour market improvement, so unions will take this opportunity to demand for higher min wage, at that time, the desparate employers would agree to it, and the govt in good times will raise the min wages and demand for labour increase.
But then when the bad times arrived, do you think the workers and their unions are willing to forgo and reduce the minimum wages...not without a fight that can cause chaos to the country economy and strike that can move companies out of the country.
You are wrong, MVC do helped both public and private sector, it is under mandatory laws that MVC must be negiotate first before retrenchment and retrenchment is the last resort. Sony reduced it MVC once, so is HP, so is Siemen, so are many others, but of course not all successful, after MVC reduction, company still cannot maintain it cost, then retrenchment sat in. In whatever the popularity of MVC or other variable components in salary structure, it act as a buffer as far as it can withhold, but of course if a company tell the govt that cutting MVC also cannot survive, then that is it.
I hope i answered some of yr question, usually I am being paid for being a CON- sultant. Gst included
OMG so many insane words from the insane " After all, I am an Angel of God"
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U all dont realise one thing : competitive wage will not work without a minimum wage system because of the availability of cheap workers who will drive down wages further!! it will only go lower as seen all along in from the past decade.Instead of becoming a competitive wage, it will become a low wage!
Whether there are foreign workers or not, the wages will still go down because the companies will find it too convienient and it becames the norm!
It will result in some undesirable consequences like eg domestic spending will decrease and will lead to inflation in prices. -
Originally posted by Worldlybusinessman:
U all dont realise one thing : competitive wage will not work without a minimum wage system because of the availability of cheap workers who will drive down wages further!! it will only go lower as seen all along in from the past decade.Instead of becoming a competitive wage, it will become a low wage!
Whether there are foreign workers or not, the wages will still go down
It will result in some undesirable consequences like eg domestic spending will decrease and will lead to inflation in prices.Minimum wage will never happen in Singapore under the GRAB AS MUCH OF THE POEPLE'S MONEY AS POSSIBLE and MAKE THEM WORK LIKE COOLIES FOR MISERABLE PAY despots
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Originally posted by angel7030:
Recently british given away most of it low skill and labouring jobs to Italy workers who dun mind getting lower pay than the minimum wages. Same goes to Mexicans and south americans who went up north to take up lower paid jobs in America that the owners are allowed to pay them below minimium wage standards. The govt of these countries actually wanted to abolish welfare funds and also minimum wages so as to allow flexibilities in term of market condition. In the case of GM motors, Obama had pointed out to the Unions, you either except wage cut to below minimium wages or no bailing out. Same goes to their executive minimium wage critieras.However since colonisation, alots of western countries and some asian colonised countries adopted welfare fund and minimium wages. Yes, as a citizen you are part of the country, you are eligble for welfare fund if the country govt dun provide a job for you, but however alot of abuse were taken to lay hand on the welfare fund, it is not that there is no jobs, it just some people dun wan to work and gives lots of excuses, all these only encourage laziness, non competitive, lack of performance and weak productivity.
Minimium wages tends increase during good times, because labour competition will be tight, alots of workers is needed, it is a labour market improvement, so unions will take this opportunity to demand for higher min wage, at that time, the desparate employers would agree to it, and the govt in good times will raise the min wages and demand for labour increase.
But then when the bad times arrived, do you think the workers and their unions are willing to forgo and reduce the minimum wages...not without a fight that can cause chaos to the country economy and strike that can move companies out of the country.
You are wrong, MVC do helped both public and private sector, it is under mandatory laws that MVC must be negiotate first before retrenchment and retrenchment is the last resort. Sony reduced it MVC once, so is HP, so is Siemen, so are many others, but of course not all successful, after MVC reduction, company still cannot maintain it cost, then retrenchment sat in. In whatever the popularity of MVC or other variable components in salary structure, it act as a buffer as far as it can withhold, but of course if a company tell the govt that cutting MVC also cannot survive, then that is it.
I hope i answered some of yr question, usually I am being paid for being a CON- sultant. Gst included
Minimum Wage System
You see, you are again taking minimum wage system as a binary 1 or 0, like a true Singaporean. Why is it that there is no other way of improving a system that helps to act as a protection against exploitation of workers?
Granted, in the West, there are many countries that have too much welfare, BUT, that is about welfare, EVERY benefit in the system. Minimum Wage system is but just one of the many tools that can benefit the worker.
We learn through history. What is so wrong about the ideals of a Minimum wage system, that you are so dead against a benefit for you? If we learn how to be OPEN to ideas, and to reengineer the system to improve its implementation, why do you then think we will follow the failure of the West?
Everything has a first. The first attempt at inventing the fork failed because the fork point was too blunt and the inventor was not able to demonstrate its effectiveness. If everyone is like you, insisting that others have tried before and have failed, then how do we as a human race progress? How do we, Singapore, a country who is encouraging Singaporeans to be creative, progress? Because EVERYONE learns through failure
MVC
I am sorry, I don't agree with your views that HP, Siemen has tried to reduce the MVC. My company is affliated to HP, so I can only think you are getting your information from heresy, and not directly experiencing it. As far as I know, HP did a pay cut, and its regardless of your MVC component.
I would also like to clarify your incorrect representation of the MVC. It is NOT mandatory for a company to consider reducing the MVC component of the salary during bad times. It is ONLY A GUIDELINE that the MVC should be considered during expense controls (There is minimal protection for workers above a monthly salary of S$2,000.00)
You, a Consultant? Please show us some standards first
If you want to be a consultant, you need to have a certain level of standards. No, I will never pay for your services, because you do not even get your research done properly. Not to mention, you are too rigid and not being able to offer me more creative solutions to problems (since you feel that the Minimum Wage System concept will 100% fail, it only shows you cannot differentiate the concept from the implementation)
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This is directed again at angel7030.
- Do you know what does AWS stands for?
- Do you know the origins of the AWS?
- Do you agree that our AWS can be cut during bad times?
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Originally posted by Worldlybusinessman:
Australia has a minimum wage. Companies ar enot moving out from there. Indonesia companies moving out is because of the security and social situation in that country
I agreed that the reason for companies to move out of the country is due to political situation. -
I agree with soul_rage. Social Welfare and min wage are two different things not to be confused.
We dont need to have social welfare here, because singapore could not afford it. But min wage is still a possibility. The western world has long embraced min wage and they are fine.
The lack of minimum age brings about more harm than its presence.
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"In the case of GM motors, Obama had pointed out to the Unions, you either except wage cut to below minimium wages or no bailing out. Same goes to their executive minimium wage critieras."
Not sure where you got this from, but it isn't true. There is NO way the UAW Union is going to accept pay below the federal minimum wage in the US, which is currently $6.55/hr. The auto workers average $40/hr.
I think there's some confusion over the definition of minimum wage in this discussion.
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Facts don't support minimum-wage critics
By James Weatherford
State Rep. Colleen Meyer is sounding a false alarm based on familiar, if unfounded, warnings about increasing the minimum wage ("Minimum wage hike would hurt everyone," March 27). The oft-repeated siren of minimum-wage doomsayers warns that an increase in the minimum wage would close businesses and cost jobs.
To add to this siren, Meyer spreads before us a game of chance: one pea, three shells. I wonder who owns the pea in this game? Not a minimum-wage worker trying to feed a family on $6.25 an hour. For that family, playing a game with a pea doesn't happen. A minimum-wage worker would rather share the pea with her hungry family.
The shells? Think shelter.
Rep. Meyer, R-47th (Ha'iku, Kahalu'u, La'ie), alludes cryptically to unidentified "studies" that "show clearly" the dire consequences of increasing the minimum wage.
I refer to research by the Fiscal Policy Institute and the Economic Policy Institute that reveals a reality different from the apocalyptic claims of minimum-wage doomsayers.
The research has found no correlation between minimum-wage increases and a rise in business failures, either in the year the increase occurred or in the following year. The economy, especially small business, has done well in the years following implementation of a minimum wage. In the wake of minimum-wage increases in both 1990 and 1997, the U.S. economy had strong growth. Between 1998 and 2001, the number of small-business establishments grew twice as quickly in states with higher minimum wages.
A comparison of states with minimum wages above the federal level has shown that increasing the minimum wage has not resulted in less hiring. Since the minimum-wage increase in 1997, low-wage workers, particularly single mothers, have found employment at increased rates. Those who will benefit most from a higher minimum wage are concentrated among working women, many of whom are single mothers. Among the workers to benefit from a minimum-wage increase, 60 percent are female and 72 percent are age 20 years and over.
The reality is that minimum wages do not cause business failure nor result in job losses, as claimed by the doomsayers.
How does a higher minimum wage affect the economy?
Raising one worker's "minimum wage from its current rate of $6.25 to as much as $8" does give that one worker a "28 percent wage hike." However, for a wage-earning worker now at $6.75 or $7.75 an hour, the pay raise is less than a "drastic" 28 percent.
Nevertheless, about that one worker: Ms. Cleaning Lady would get a 28 percent raise on her job where she empties the trash cans and washes the urinals of million-dollar executives.
Ms. Cleaning Lady might spend some of the extra wage on clothes for herself and her family, or maybe for a new sofa or refrigerator. If she is frugal, she can save some of these extra earnings for her child's high school education. If she is a miracle worker, she can save for the child's college education.
When a low-income worker with minimal material wealth gets an increase in wage, a large part of that increase is spent on basic personal and household items. Purchases of clothes, sofas and refrigerators circulate money in the economy and register demand for these products. Because satisfying customers' needs is what matters most in a market economy, employers increase hiring to satisfy demand generated by increased income.
The economic common sense of workers as buyers, and wages as expenditures, seems to escape minimum-wage doomsayers, who also appear naive to the futility of trying to sell anything to a customer who has no money.
James Weatherford is a resident of Kea'au, Hawai'i. He wrote this commentary for The Advertiser. -
Originally posted by will4:
I agreed that the reason for companies to move out of the country is due to political situation.Indon reeks with corruption, instability and chaos. How can we compare with singapore?
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Originally posted by Worldlybusinessman:
Indon reeks with corruption, instability and chaos. How can we compare with singapore?
Indonesia has improved but it is still riddled with graft cases. I believed that it has long road ahead but if u read at the report, many officials have been charged. -
Originally posted by angel7030:
and as usual, this ghost will follow us wherever we go...damn, Uncle, aren't we making ourselves a fool for others to laugh at..Wee! All rights reserved.mai bhb..
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Remember a country can only prosper when its citizens are well off.
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Originally posted by Boomslang4829:
"In the case of GM motors, Obama had pointed out to the Unions, you either except wage cut to below minimium wages or no bailing out. Same goes to their executive minimium wage critieras."
Not sure where you got this from, but it isn't true. There is NO way the UAW Union is going to accept pay below the federal minimum wage in the US, which is currently $6.55/hr. The auto workers average $40/hr.
I think there's some confusion over the definition of minimum wage in this discussion.
Can you further explain your understanding of their minimum wage then?
Seriously, whether Singapore builds in a minimum wage or not, does not impact me at all in terms of my salary, and may only increase upon my cost of living (if those critics of welfare to the average worker are proven true).
So why am I arguing for it then and going against the likes of angel7030 on this issue?
It's because I feel this is an effective method to ensure the lower income families are able to reap some benefits from the economic progress of our country.
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i also do believe Min wages will stir and encourage both employer and employee to work harder.Instead of basing our assumption on competitive wages, we should be going to the way of min wages.
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I believe employer does not want minimum wage while employee does .
But if the mini wage is set and the whole chuck of people talking here are above the mini wage then how ... If it benefit the foreigners working here more than the singaporeans ... a lot more people who are anti immigrants are going to roar ...
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Originally posted by Ice Dive:
I believe employer does not want minimum wage while employee does .
But if the mini wage is set and the whole chuck of people talking here are above the mini wage then how ... If it benefit the foreigners working here more than the singaporeans ... a lot more people who are anti immigrants are going to roar ...
Min Wages together with high productivity works. And also social cohesion should exist in society for the society as a whole to function.Lack of social cohesion will result in a dysfunctional society.
It is a clear reason for the western taxation system which works on this "Fair 4 all " principle.
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"Can you further explain your understanding of their minimum wage then?"
Well, in the US, employees are split into 2 groups; exempt and non-exempt.
Exempt employees are salaried workers, who are cannot claim overtime, but also make more than minimum wage. Non-exempt employees are the hourly-paid employees who are affected by minimum wage rules.
Therefore, when angel7030 mentioned about GM executive minimum wage, there's actually no such thing since executives are salaried exempt employees.
Minimum wage mostly concerns blue collar jobs.
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Somebody came up with this quote (I wonder who was the original person who thought of this):
Singaporeans cannot have minimum wage to remain competitive.
Ministers need to have minimum wage to remain competitive.
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Originally posted by Boomslang4829:
"Can you further explain your understanding of their minimum wage then?"
Well, in the US, employees are split into 2 groups; exempt and non-exempt.
Exempt employees are salaried workers, who are cannot claim overtime, but also make more than minimum wage. Non-exempt employees are the hourly-paid employees who are affected by minimum wage rules.
Therefore, when angel7030 mentioned about GM executive minimum wage, there's actually no such thing since executives are salaried exempt employees.
Minimum wage mostly concerns blue collar jobs.
Ah... I see what you mean
Yes I am in the Exempt group in my organization. And there are those that are under non-exempt.
Yes, I agree, that minimum wage mostly affects the blue-collar jobs.
So that's what I meant, if angel7030 wants to be a consultant, she better work hard on her research first and foremost.
Either way, minimum wage is a much more effective method of helping the lower income groups coz it DIRECTLY benefits them.
All the bulls**t about handing out one-time payouts to poor, or increase GST to help the poor, are, well, just bulls**t.