Singapore At War
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Go & die, boar! So what u yourself know about your airforce?Originally posted by FuckSpore4ever:*laff*...how much do U think you know abt my airforce..*laff*...when since did we hire a KNS like U....
Never (or cannot) provide any arguments & yet want to oink loudly. If unhappy with what we say, provide some logical arguments to prove yourself right.
If can't, then your words just appeared like *Oink* *Oink* after all. -
With respect to wave's response, we do not need to look towards the Yom Kippur war for an example. One glaring example in our history is the Japanese invasion of Singapore which was largely due to arrogance, over-confidence and failure in intelligence to some extend.Originally posted by solaris:hello
I am someone who has been following this topic from the starting post and I must comment on certain things. Besides the doubts surrounding the morale and fighting qualities of the singaporean soldiers, another thing that we should be beware of is hubris. I am worried about the complancency that might be incalculated in our soldiers during the NE lessons be it in school or the SAF. True we want our soldiers and citizens to have confidence in our defence capabilities but then we should avoid the pitfalls of believeing ourselves too strongly and underestimating our opponents. The consequences of this is all too clear - just ask the Israelis regarding the 1973 Yom Kippur war. The point to note in this war is not the outcome - an Israeli victory but one incurred at a much higher cost and duration than the previous wars - but rather the prelude to the war with particular emphasis on the glaring intelligence failure and analysis coupled with the overconfidence and arrogance the Israelis have prior to the outbreak. Another thing I must say is the anatagonistic attitude adopted by certain indiviuals here such as FuckSpore4ever, RMN - Best. I would not say that he is definitely a Malaysian. Whatever his nationality, he is a disgrace to himself and the nation and society which he grows up him. I would urge contributors not to respond to his provocation in kind.
Perhaps it is time to reflect upon current issues affecting us and plan ahead on how to thward future threats from our friendly neighbours in the future. As long as we are reliant upon them fro resources, we will be at their mercy.
Recently, my kakis and I were discussing about the rising youth delinquencies and the threats to our nations. One of my kaki suggested creating military boarding schools as a method to kill two birds with one stone.
On one hand, we get to put our trouble youth in line, and the other hand, give ourselves enough time to raise up a bunch of highly trainned professionals to lead our arm forces.
What do you guys think? -
Wave and everyone else, ignore the troll. He's like the Malaysian government and press, unable to contribute coherently to a debate other than by spewing vitriol, hurling abuse and calling names. Do like our government, don't waste time by replying to him and sinking to their level. Every abusive post from him just proves my point.Originally posted by wave:Go & die, boar! So what u yourself know about your airforce?
Never (or cannot) provide any arguments & yet want to oink loudly. If unhappy with what we say, provide some logical arguments to prove yourself right.
If can't, then your words just appeared like *Oink* *Oink* after all. -
Originally posted by Rudin:With respect to solaris's response, we do not need to look towards the Yom Kippur war for an example. One glaring example in our history is the Japanese invasion of Singapore which was largely due to arrogance, over-confidence and failure in intelligence to some extend.
Perhaps it is time to reflect upon current issues affecting us and plan ahead on how to thward future threats from our friendly neighbours in the future. As long as we are reliant upon them fro resources, we will be at their mercy.
Recently, my kakis and I were discussing about the rising youth delinquencies and the threats to our nations. One of my kaki suggested creating military boarding schools as a method to kill two birds with one stone.
On one hand, we get to put our trouble youth in line, and the other hand, give ourselves enough time to raise up a bunch of highly trainned professionals to lead our arm forces.
What do you guys think? -
You have my support for you point here.Originally posted by solaris:hello
I am someone who has been following this topic from the starting post and I must comment on certain things. Besides the doubts surrounding the morale and fighting qualities of the singaporean soldiers, another thing that we should be beware of is hubris. I am worried about the complancency that might be incalculated in our soldiers during the NE lessons be it in school or the SAF. True we want our soldiers and citizens to have confidence in our defence capabilities but then we should avoid the pitfalls of believeing ourselves too strongly and underestimating our opponents. The consequences of this is all too clear - just ask the Israelis regarding the 1973 Yom Kippur war. The point to note in this war is not the outcome - an Israeli victory but one incurred at a much higher cost and duration than the previous wars - but rather the prelude to the war with particular emphasis on the glaring intelligence failure and analysis coupled with the overconfidence and arrogance the Israelis have prior to the outbreak. Another thing I must say is the anatagonistic attitude adopted by certain indiviuals here such as FuckSpore4ever, RMN - Best. I would not say that he is definitely a Malaysian. Whatever his nationality, he is a disgrace to himself and the nation and society which he grows up him. I would urge contributors not to respond to his provocation in kind.
Overall I believe I will go back and serve if the call arises. But during the peace times I better trim off the fats and get some lean muscles. I am an infantry spec. And also was an BMT instructor. I know I am going to get some remarks about cock up and sadistic instructors, but there are some people who are really doing a remarkable job in training up the kids, considering the amount of limited time and experiences we have.
My colleages and I believe in train the kids to the level where we can be confident that we are able led the out to fight and survive a fight. And there are some of them I can really depends on if the need arises.
What I can say is we compensated the lack of experience people with education and intelligence. Only in a NS policy you can get degree men and specs, which at times out think the officers and work on their own. What is important is that the mentality of performing you task professionally has to be better reinforced. As when you are a soldier think like a soldier, when you are a civillian think like a civilian, when your both think both ways take the good in each and piece them together. Take the bad and learn from them and remember not to commit the same. -
I was a combat personal. (ORDed : ages ago) Our trainning has always enabled men to think independently w/o the need for much leadership. In HR terms, this is a great achievement. Most sane people in this region desire peace. However, if crazed war-mongers desire war, I would not hesitate to use the skills acquired in my 2 1/2 year stint with the SAF against them.Originally posted by jagkoh:You have my support for you point here.
Overall I believe I will go back and serve if the call arises. But during the peace times I better trim off the fats and get some lean muscles. I am an infantry spec. And also was an BMT instructor. I know I am going to get some remarks about cock up and sadistic instructors, but there are some people who are really doing a remarkable job in training up the kids, considering the amount of limited time and experiences we have.
My colleages and I believe in train the kids to the level where we can be confident that we are able led the out to fight and survive a fight. And there are some of them I can really depends on if the need arises.
What I can say is we compensated the lack of experience people with education and intelligence. Only in a NS policy you can get degree men and specs, which at times out think the officers and work on their own. What is important is that the mentality of performing you task professionally has to be better reinforced. As when you are a soldier think like a soldier, when you are a civillian think like a civilian, when your both think both ways take the good in each and piece them together. Take the bad and learn from them and remember not to commit the same.
To the mongels like FuckSpore4ever...please think of something constructive before writing your piece of shit here. -
Find it weird that many negative accuses on S'pore are without solid facts or evidences. e.g reclamation affect the sea lanes, RSAF aircrafts into m'sia airspace, military personnels stationed in a lighthouse island....all without convincible facts.
Those weird people are of all types, from politician to journalist to weirdo in internet forums.
Is that their culture to say things w/o fact? Or there are more complicate issues behind such phenomenons?
I think the above issues are appropriate for discussions. -
I think the Malaysian army is worth our respect in some sense. True, there is no doubt that qualitatively, especially in terms of technology, we win. But in terms of experience, man-to-man, the fact that they are regulars will mean they have an edge in this area. Their experience in operational conditions(UN ops, fighting the commies) also give them the edge in this area.
Which is why our technological edge must be maintained. And the money spent on the air force to take part in exercises like Red Flag, Maple Flag and ODAX is worth it, these exercises are as close as we can get to real ops without having actually to get there.
FWIW, I've spoken to many members of foreign air forces from other forums who've had the opportunity to work with or against our guys in these exercises. The general consensus among them is that the RSAF is highly regarded; professional and "know their stuff" are comments which I've heard often.
[This message has been edited by Viper52 (edited 21 April 2002).] -
Agreed, Mustn't get too complacent.
About the PT91, one has to agree that in a duel, the PT91 is definitely an overmatch for our SM1s and errr "da ge's." Where as "da ge da's" would be more than adequate to handle them. Perhaps the MAF should read up battles likt Wadi Al Batin and 73 Easting before getting too proud of the "upgraded" T-72s.
As for the American's reluctance in transfer of arms, well all I can say is........ ITS ABOUT BLOODY TIME THEY FOUND OUT!
Mig-29Ns, Su-30s, F/A-18Es, F/A-18Ds. Looks like they're gonna get themselves into another logistic mess. And if the US ain't gonna sell the weapons for those bugs, then they can have a good time figuring out how to rig russian weapons on them.
I'd still show a degree of respect for the Su-27/30 designs though. A retired US NAVY Admiral once wrote a full article debating the Su-30s. He conceptualised having Su's taking off US Carriers until the JSF was ready. Of course, the engines, avionics and weapons would be made in USA. Unfortunately, it has quite a large RCS and itself a bigger target. -
When making a comparison between military hardwares of 2 countries(I will exclude the impact of intangibles such as system integration, doctrines, C4I etc) in this, we should take note of the asymmetery of the balance. Instead of comparing the quantity and quality of the same class of equipment in the 2 armed forces, we should note the impact oen class on another class. For example, the impact of A SAM systems on the superiority of B air force. The impact of A MRLS on B artillery deployment. For example, the impact of the syrian and egyptian SAM systmes on IAF operations were underestimated and this leads to them incurring unneccessary losses in 1973. The effect of infantry ATGW were similarly discounted and the IDF persist with mass armoured assaults with no supporting infantry early in the 73 war resulted in their tanks suffering extensive losses. Another point is that we should not get too rigid in our concept of operations. For example, is it really true that MBT have no place in a South Est Asian battlefield or that the ground too soft and the jungles too thick for effective MBT operations? Is the sunburn missile really an overkill in dealing with frigates in SEA....think of the impact on future naval operation of country A if country B manage to knock out 1 of counrty A frigates? We may yet be surprised. Doctrinal inflexibility has dismal consequences. Ask the French in June 1940......
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I am friends with and worked with Malaysians with all races before. Thankfully they are not all like this. I've a Malaysian friend who is indeed extremely learned and in fact, would not be out of place discussing matters here.Originally posted by wave:Find it weird that many negative accuses on S'pore are without solid facts or evidences. e.g reclamation affect the sea lanes, RSAF aircrafts into m'sia airspace, military personnels stationed in a lighthouse island....all without convincible facts.
Those weird people are of all types, from politician to journalist to weirdo in internet forums.
Is that their culture to say things w/o fact? Or there are more complicate issues behind such phenomenons?
I think the above issues are appropriate for discussions.
A pity more like him are not in their government and press. -
Gues they filter out those who can do rational thinking...Originally posted by Viper52:I am friends with and worked with Malaysians with all races before. Thankfully they are not all like this. I've a Malaysian friend who is indeed extremely learned and in fact, would not be out of place discussing matters here.
A pity more like him are not in their government and press.
Well just heck care about them...there are much better things to discuss about here than to waste our energies talking about these weird buggers -
True...most malaysian I encountered are actually quite humble and pleasant.Originally posted by Viper52:I am friends with and worked with Malaysians with all races before. Thankfully they are not all like this. I've a Malaysian friend who is indeed extremely learned and in fact, would not be out of place discussing matters here.
A pity more like him are not in their government and press.
The problem is that some people made their stand, based on third party inaccurate reports...start pointing fingers, without further investigation.
They forgot one important fact....newspapers and reports only let you "see" the side and angles they wish you to see. -
One could say the same about a singaporean newspaper actually... or any newspaper in the world for that matter... there is no such thing as absolute objectivity in journalism.
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Nod nod...I did not imply those newspaper are from where. There is actually no absolute right or wrong, it all depends on your standpoint. Although one might see for himself, it may still be biased due to his belifs.Originally posted by CX:One could say the same about a singaporean newspaper actually... or any newspaper in the world for that matter... there is no such thing as absolute objectivity in journalism.
[This message has been edited by wombat (edited 22 April 2002).] -
Yes I agree...that is why we must not just read and believe everything we see from one source. Read other newspapers(almost every major newspaper has their own FREE website), watch CNN, BBC even PR of China News(available through SCV). Don't have to read and watch everything, a couple of alternate viewpoints is good enough. Your find your perspective of the world changes and maybe we'll learn to appreciate what we have even more.Originally posted by CX:One could say the same about a singaporean newspaper actually... or any newspaper in the world for that matter... there is no such thing as absolute objectivity in journalism.
Don't waste time on programs like Survivor. Thrash like this only brings out the worst in human behaviour, the backstabbing, moneygrubbing selfish side of people. Watching it turns my stomach -
Hey Combat Mission is interesting...it does show the positive side of human behaviour too...Team Work.Originally posted by Viper52:Don't waste time on programs like Survivor. Thrash like this only brings out the worst in human behaviour, the backstabbing, moneygrubbing selfish side of people. Watching it turns my stomach -
Not just about combat missions...but every one of these "reality" shows...for every positive aspect, there're at least 2 negative ones. I don't waste my time with them...Originally posted by Rudin:Hey Combat Mission is interesting...it does show the positive side of human behaviour too...Team Work. -
True, but we also have to look at issues of purchasing, maintaining, deployment of such weapons, not to mention the eventual effectiveness. Singapore does need some sort of MBTs, but it also needs to consider what weight of the MBT is suitable for the regional terrain, support issues, and how to deploy them. The purchase of any equipment must also be fully integrated into the the battle doctrine. If SAF's doctrine is based on speed and mobility, a good 60 ton Mekarva will not be suitable. A 30+ tons medium weight MBT seems to be the best solution. We will also have to look at the size of the gun, 105mmm or 120mm, tactical employment of the tank, eg. Tank vs Tank, or fire support, etc. Transportability of the tank, current trucks can transport the tanks??? Folding/amphibious??? logistic problem such as does the tank drinks gas like an Abram does?Originally posted by solaris:When making a comparison between military hardwares of 2 countries(I will exclude the impact of intangibles such as system integration, doctrines, C4I etc) in this, we should take note of the asymmetery of the balance. Instead of comparing the quantity and quality of the same class of equipment in the 2 armed forces, we should note the impact oen class on another class. For example, the impact of A SAM systems on the superiority of B air force. The impact of A MRLS on B artillery deployment. For example, the impact of the syrian and egyptian SAM systmes on IAF operations were underestimated and this leads to them incurring unneccessary losses in 1973. The effect of infantry ATGW were similarly discounted and the IDF persist with mass armoured assaults with no supporting infantry early in the 73 war resulted in their tanks suffering extensive losses. Another point is that we should not get too rigid in our concept of operations. For example, is it really true that MBT have no place in a South Est Asian battlefield or that the ground too soft and the jungles too thick for effective MBT operations? Is the sunburn missile really an overkill in dealing with frigates in SEA....think of the impact on future naval operation of country A if country B manage to knock out 1 of counrty A frigates? We may yet be surprised. Doctrinal inflexibility has dismal consequences. Ask the French in June 1940......
There are too many aspect to consider when decising what next gen light tank/MBT to replace the SM1. I personally thank that Mindef/SAF would consider all these aspect and come up with a good solution to counter the Northerners' Tanks without going overkill into getting a similarly heavy tank (unless their studies warrant such a purchase). Secondly, anti-tank platforms are also excellent way to eliminate tanks without going into purchasing of heavy MBTs ourselves. Reports came out that Eurocopter attempts to promotes EuroTigers to RSAF dispite the fact that RSAF have already purchased Apaches. Perhaps enlarging the attach helos numbers is Singapore's rational answer to the increase of MBT in the region.
Singapore still needs to replace the SM1 though.... -
Didn't the Bosnia/Serb Peace-keeping mission prove that Gunships are vunerable too? If I'm not mistaken, the US rather deploy tanks than the Apaches in during the conflict.Originally posted by Joe Black:True, but we also have to look at issues of purchasing, maintaining, deployment of such weapons, not to mention the eventual effectiveness. Singapore does need some sort of MBTs, but it also needs to consider what weight of the MBT is suitable for the regional terrain, support issues, and how to deploy them. The purchase of any equipment must also be fully integrated into the the battle doctrine. If SAF's doctrine is based on speed and mobility, a good 60 ton Mekarva will not be suitable. A 30+ tons medium weight MBT seems to be the best solution. We will also have to look at the size of the gun, 105mmm or 120mm, tactical employment of the tank, eg. Tank vs Tank, or fire support, etc. Transportability of the tank, current trucks can transport the tanks??? Folding/amphibious??? logistic problem such as does the tank drinks gas like an Abram does?
There are too many aspect to consider when decising what next gen light tank/MBT to replace the SM1. I personally thank that Mindef/SAF would consider all these aspect and come up with a good solution to counter the Northerners' Tanks without going overkill into getting a similarly heavy tank (unless their studies warrant such a purchase). Secondly, anti-tank platforms are also excellent way to eliminate tanks without going into purchasing of heavy MBTs ourselves. Reports came out that Eurocopter attempts to promotes EuroTigers to RSAF dispite the fact that RSAF have already purchased Apaches. Perhaps enlarging the attach helos numbers is Singapore's rational answer to the increase of MBT in the region.
Singapore still needs to replace the SM1 though....
Seems like our northern neighbor's forces are always used as a benchmark when comparing our force. But I was quite suprise than M-sia's buying yesterday's technology. Although the PT-91's fully upgraded to current generation tank technology, it's still a T-72 right? It's not like as if the M-sians already have T-72s are were upgrading to the PT-91s. But it terms of the size of the T-72, it's actually not that big. I would say it's still able to manuver pretty well even in some of the larger paths of SG's "kampong terrian".
SM1 operator were often simulated to fight the smaller brother of the T-72s so I guess that's it for the SM1s.... -
Sounds to me that if everybody disagreed on everything else, they could all agree on one thing: the SM1 has to go!
I must say, it is disturbing to still see that... that... vehicle still in use... ! If the current doctrines stresses speed and mobility, the SM1 has neither! It's engine is so sad and despite claims of continuous upgrades, is outclassed in terms of modern armour.
I'm sure SAF didn't have to wait until now to start thinking of getting a new tank... or maybe they already have but have decided to not tell anyone until its implemented (as usual).
Don't mind me asking but any reservists here who've played with some of the new toys? No details sought... just a simple yes or no. -
Ho hum... they did it again... another venomous letter by the famous retired General Zaini Mohamed Said in the malaysian press warning against "small nation with powerful army" and comparing the israeli-palestinian conflict; that israel is able to conduct vilent actions against palestinian "civillians" with impunity 'cos its a "friend of a superpower" ...
sigh... I'm not being anti-semitic here, but I'm no big fan of the current israeli military actions. Nor do i pity the palestinians. I believe that both sides are mirror-images of each other at this time: not willing to listen, not willing to back down and terribly eager to just give each other "a bloody nose" and until both sides get it, they are not going to stop.
Besides, hasn't anyone realised by now that many media reports and foreign reactions are NOT swayed in Israel's favour?
The nobel peace prize committee is considering revoking Shimon Peres'... but guess what... nothing being said about Arafat.
When will our dear malaysian general stop to think, and realise that countries do not wake up in the morning and suddenly decide to fight a war with their neighbours! He apparently knows what's at stake here: politics, economics and water. They are the ones raising hell over water, not us. What is the point of Singapore paying 6 times the current rate for malaysian water if de-salinated water is gonna cost the same or a bit more?!
And why is it OUR fault if malaysian politicians are simply engaging in Sg-bashing to further their political position? And why is Sg "sore" at losing maersk and evergreen to tanjong pelapas when there are more than 320 major shipping lines still operating here, as opposed to the 2 that shifted over there???? the lighthouse arrangement has been uneventful for centuries... why bring it up now? Its pretty obvious that they are inventing problems where none exists at all. and they feel that the recent arms purchases gives them additional leverage to do that. what can i say? I hope they have fun but people here seriously have better things to do than sit around all day trying to identify spies by their hair-cut... -
sg can win war??? lolx dream long long... SAF stand for serve and forget.. wont win 1..
my comments onli.. no offence hehe -
It all depends who the agressor is. If the conflict is confined within the region, I have no doubts of SAF abilities. But from beyond, it will need more than our abilites alone.Originally posted by ipowersia:sg can win war??? lolx dream long long... SAF stand for serve and forget.. wont win 1..
my comments onli.. no offence hehe
Why don't you check out Janes, it will give you a more clearer picture. SAF is well respected in the region not for no reasons. -
You are half right and half wrong.Originally posted by ipowersia:sg can win war??? lolx dream long long... SAF stand for serve and forget.. wont win 1..
my comments onli.. no offence hehe
If everyone think like you then that's it liao. But fortunately....not everyone think like that. In fact, alot of people I ask don't think like that, so half half loh.
SAF stands for many things, good and bad. It all depends which one you want it to mean.
Many people think many things cannot make it, but if that's the case then why many things are still making it and existing?
my comments onli.. no offence hehe