Singapore At War
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Has anyone here used the SAR-21? Care to comment on its usability, reliability accuracy etc? and i wonder when SAR-21 will be issued to reservists like myself..
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Greetings to all,
... A very interesting discussion which i felt rather compelled to join...
Hope that all active might put up with me =P
Anyway,
Viewed in context, the recent arms acquisition by our "friend" in the North might simply be viewed as a resumption of the modernisation which they put off when the economy went down the toilet. Their capabilities before this round of acquisition is indeed, pityful...
It might be remembered that Singapore went through a highly publicised defence budget increase just when everyone else was cutting theirs... we spent first, then laid low while they laid low first, then pissed their money away... same thing, different time...
Besides... it is easy to confuse a prototype, newly acquired, un-integrated piece of hardware with a fully operational weapon. They are 2 different things. A weapon bought today is NOT operational tomorrow. So even if the PT-91 are gonna be arriving next week (which is isn't,) its just a bogeyman sitting in a warehouse until the crew is ready to man it (which usually takes awhile).
I think its about time the North upgraded their capabilities... I would not enjoy bailing them out if they can't take care of themselves. As for its posturing against Singapore, what can i say? I will live free or die fighting so just let them try...
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I never saw a wild thing
sorry for itself.
A small bird will drop frozen dead from a bough
without ever having felt sorry for itself.
D. H. Lawrence -
i agree with you totally. Buying stuff does not equate to having it all ready to use. Already as it is, our northern 'friends' or (redland armed forces haha) have a huge problem with logistics, training, and compatibility. Their ground crews have to go through a nightmare trying to integrate soviet MiG-29 comms with their F-18s...all their NATO equipment can't work with the ex-warsaw pact junk they are buying.
Their training is a mess and they logistics is even worse.
I think their recent arms purchases, without the supporting infrastructure and the requisite (intelligent might i add) manpower is just a pile of scrap.
After all, the quality of one's armed forces is not based on the hardware alone. It's the entire system.
as for their newly bought Polish tanks, does anyone know whether our SPIKE missiles can tear them a new arsehole?
Can our 66mm LAW knock them out? Or will they (as i suspect) just bounch off the MBT armour?
Also, can our 75mm SM1 tank gun rounds hurt them or will they just annoy them
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Seriously, I dun think much of our LAWs and SM1s cos they dun pack the punch at all! Modern armors are capable to withstand all that, even direct hit(i believe)!
We're lucky that SAF decided ATGM is the ground wpn of tmr and we have seen significant roles of those weaponary in recent years.
Does anyone know when the result for the Fighter Selection is gonna be known? And whether the increased threat from the north is gonna make SAF push forward the local deployment of the Apaches? What about the UH-1? I think their service life is almost at the end of the tunnel..what's the plan for the replacement? Just the chinooks? -
Was just watching BBC and they were reporting that the Europeans are damned pissed that they lost the $4.2Billion deal to supply South Korea with fighters to the US (surprise surprise). the interesting part of the report was that apparently, the europeans are now more than ever, keen to make the sale to S'pore (either the Rafaele or the Eurofighter) over the US's F-18
but the BBC report was predicting that the choice is down to the F-18 vs the Rafaele cos what S'pore wants is a fighter with ground attack capability which the Eurofighter lacks.
Looks like S'pore will press both parties to compromise hard! haha. if the US were to win the fighter bid, they'd end up woth another billion dollar contract with S'pore! LOL and the Europeans will be doubly losers.
Of course the best part is now that the Europeans have taken the South Korean govt to court for calling the deal off.
LOL sour grapes!
As for your lack of faith in our LAW and toy car...er..SM1s, i agree...75mm HEDP is just going to bounce off the polish tanks..haha -
I an pretty sure the Spike has the capabilities to punch through the PT-91 Armor, since its a Top-attack weapon. Unless that is, they modified the PT-91's top armor...... er.
As for the APFSDS fired from the 75mm of the SM1, one can only hope for the best. Of course, I'm more interested in the Apache, whether it can be rewired to fit Spikes on them. -
forget it... that PT91 has armor on the top to prevent such top attack from success... wat i read... if true... is that PT91... aka T72 upgraded version... have an armor that even 125mm main gun from another tank would have difficulty in puching through.... in fact... only the hellfire might stand a chance... provided that the hellfire can hit the tank... cos that tank as anti- laser guided ATM defense.... some sort of smoke and sensor i heard.Originally posted by Shotgun:I an pretty sure the Spike has the capabilities to punch through the PT-91 Armor, since its a Top-attack weapon. Unless that is, they modified the PT-91's top armor...... er.
As for the APFSDS fired from the 75mm of the SM1, one can only hope for the best. Of course, I'm more interested in the Apache, whether it can be rewired to fit Spikes on them.
If all else fail.... shoot the track... the isrealis did that in 1973 war with syrian... it seems that the track is still pretty much still the weakest part of the tank... since it cant be too thick.
i read somewhere... dont know if it is true... that the americans have DU 125mm anti-tank round that can rip that PT91 to shreds.... but no confirmation...
but IF the spikes can penetrate the top armor... linking it to the apache... would effectively give SAF the weapon it needed to kill this monster. -
i believe this time the northern purchases are more thought thru and pose more threat to us.when u start buying tanks, subs, and aircraft the way they do, it indicates a serious effort to catch up with us.
its true buying equipment does not equate instant operational abilities, but if i am not wrong, they were sending ppl to pakistan for submarine training years ago.
we still have the headstart, but they are catching up -
i think the real red light in their new arms purchase is the subs & the PT-91 tanks. we have a few years head start on them for subs but S'pore is still on beginner's stage with sub warfare. & the tanks could be a problem. seems that SAF don't have a land fighting vehicle that is powerful enough to kill it. since the Guards will be out front & deep in a future battlefield their LSV's have to be equipped with a powerful anti tank weapon to kill these PT-91's if the SPIKE can't do the job. is it possible to buy a few of these PT-91's from a CIS country? if S'pore could just get their hands on a few of these to test/take apart & let our tank guys drive it to evalute it's performance, it would help a great deal in finding a solution to this threat.
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"Is it me or the sword you want?"~Jen Yu
CROUCHING TIGER HIDDEN DRAGON -
Now, is it just me being complacent or is everyone else being paranoid about our Northern friend's recent tank purchases...
Here's my two cents, for what its worth... Firstly, top of the line armour might block even the most advance ATGM, but it offers next to no protection to the factor most important to a tank: its mobility. A simple AT mine can still blow the tracks off a tank and a mobility kill is as good as a dead tank in many circumstances. Nobody is going to mark out a mine field according to the Geneva covention in a shooting war so thats not really hard to achieve... a 2 hour delay on a mobile column is tantamount to a failed mission in many circumstances. If anybody's tried clearing a mine cluster before, u guys know exactly what i'm talking about...
another thing is, deployment is unlikely to be massed... thats tactical suicide. This isn't desert storm where u can just drive up and mow over everything in your path. there is neither the space nor the tanks to do it. It not that hard to take out the few PT90s supporting the rest of the Scorpions and IFVs.
Hence, while i agree that there probably should be a more effective AT weapon than that sewage tube we lug around, I wouldn't lose sleep over the supposed effectiveness of this new toy in their possession 'cos it really changes things very little. It really psychological and i can see how its working very well... -
according to some report... that PT 91Z tank's track can withstand normal 10 - 12 kg AT mines....Originally posted by CX:Now, is it just me being complacent or is everyone else being paranoid about our Northern friend's recent tank purchases...
Here's my two cents, for what its worth... Firstly, top of the line armour might block even the most advance ATGM, but it offers next to no protection to the factor most important to a tank: its mobility. A simple AT mine can still blow the tracks off a tank and a mobility kill is as good as a dead tank in many circumstances. Nobody is going to mark out a mine field according to the Geneva covention in a shooting war so thats not really hard to achieve... a 2 hour delay on a mobile column is tantamount to a failed mission in many circumstances. If anybody's tried clearing a mine cluster before, u guys know exactly what i'm talking about...
another thing is, deployment is unlikely to be massed... thats tactical suicide. This isn't desert storm where u can just drive up and mow over everything in your path. there is neither the space nor the tanks to do it. It not that hard to take out the few PT90s supporting the rest of the Scorpions and IFVs.
Hence, while i agree that there probably should be a more effective AT weapon than that sewage tube we lug around, I wouldn't lose sleep over the supposed effectiveness of this new toy in their possession 'cos it really changes things very little. It really psychological and i can see how its working very well... -
It depends on how much u believe marketing materials... Every bloody defence contractor will claim that their products will do the hookie pookie when u clap and the macarena when u whistle... You never know for sure until u see it in action...Originally posted by tripwire:according to some report... that PT 91Z tank's track can withstand normal 10 - 12 kg AT mines....
During the Gulf War, the Allied forces thought that the Iraqi T72 were really powerful shit and all but imagine their surprise when instead of the spent uranium shells punching holes in the T-72 turrets, it knocked the entire turret off the chasis... testimony of shoddy soviet workmanship...
Now I know that was 12 years ago and situations are vastly different. But let me get back to my point: Are we to assume that a PT91 is going to roll on down a detected mine cluster unscathed? Thats ridiculous!
As far as I know, the Malaysians do not yet possess an effective counter-measure for surface mine clusters. That means they gotta either do it manually or find an alternative route. Either way, they delay would cost them dearly...
I guess I'm one of those people who believe that the simplest solutions are the best... Singapore cannot buy a new weapon system every time one of the tin-pot dictators of those neighbouring banana republics decides to buy a new toy and engage in some sabre rattling. There's gotta be another way! -
I don't think we'll be reacting much to this round of their shopping, as most countermeasures are already in place. We've got the Spikes and Apaches to counter the PT-91s, frigates have been lined up for ASW/ASuW, naval ASW helos coming...
Its always a case of them playing catch up with us, and our military edge will not slip up too much.
I still think the T-72 class is too heavy for regional terrain anyway. Let them have fun trying to work out how to get those things through the jungle. -
Even if they do find ways and routes to get those tanks over, those areas will probably be saturated with arty delivered mines or something.
My stand has always been this, Fight MBTs with MBTs. Wherever they might try to break through with MBTs, keep our own MBTs in the rear to block or counter attack. Apaches and Spike teams will supplement this force. Break off their spear head, and work your way down the softer wood.
Was down in Johor for the past few days due to work. I noticed the terrain was not suitable for MBT deployments. The soil in some areas can corrode easily due to rain, leaving heavier tanks to sink in mud baths. However, its NOT impossible to move through other areas, where the ground is tad bit firmer. Given such conditions, i believe its possible to predict such armored spearheads, lay ambushes, and run mobile defenses with LSVs, and deliver the final blow with MBTs of our own -
Before malaysia's ordering of the PT-91, there was hardly any news regarding their likelyhood to purchase such tanks. Their decision seem sudden. Could the following articles from "New Straits Time" (dated 23 March 2002) reflect the reason why Dr.M suddenly become so interested in that machine? It mentioned the word "lobbying".
Understand the lobbying is common in western countries, esp among western politicians; but seem like it is also effective in some east-meet-west situation (in this case, it's the Polish-meet-Dr.M type of lobbying).
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Title: Poland lobbying hard to sell battle tanks to Malaysia
By: Syed Nadzri
POLAND is vigorously trying to sell battle tanks to Malaysia, showing off to Prime Minister Datuk Seri Dr Mahathir Mohamad on Thursday what its PT- 91 can do.
The PT-91 is an upgraded version of the T-72, popularly known as the Russian Tank which, defence experts say, has capabilities that are quite unmatched.
Dr Mahathir, who is on a three-day official visit to Poland, was taken to a military camp at Wesola on the outskirts of Warsaw after lunch to see the PT-91 and other armoured vehicles in action.
The Prime Minister braved chilly conditions and spent almost two hours watching the demonstration and even climbed onto a PT-91 with Defence Minister Datuk Seri Najib Tun Razak.
The tank has impressive mobility and is said to have a top speed of 60km per hour, very fast for a 45-tonne chunk of steel.
But whether Malaysia is actually buying or placing orders is another matter altogether.
The Polish Press, meanwhile, has been trying to fish for an answer from Dr Mahathir at the slightest opportunity, but the Prime Minister was not taking the bait that easily, responding only with non-committal replies.
"We have not finalised yet but Poland is high on the list," Dr Mahathir replied to a question whether Malaysia had struck a deal on the purchase of military equipment and where Poland figures on Malaysia's shopping list. The Prime Minister said decisions on the purchase of arms were not easy to make as many factors had to be taken into account.
It is understood that among the factors being considered were cost, reliability, after-sales services as well as commercial paybacks Poland could offer, for instance, contracts for buying commodities from Malaysia.
Defence-related activities featured quite prominently in Dr Mahathir's programme in Poland.
Yesterday, he flew about 400km to the port city of Gdansk by the Baltic Sea to visit the Gdynia Naval Shipyard. There he witnessed demonstrations and displays by the Polish Navy. Dr Mahathir also performed Friday prayers at the Gdansk-Oliwa Mosque. Later, he presented financial aid of US$5,000 to the mosque on behalf of the Malaysian Government. [email protected] -
One avenue of potential development worth looking at however, is an upgrade of the LAW. I believe it is actually possible to replace the current HEAT warhead with a tandem warhead more capable of defeating more advance armour without drastically changing the entire system... The psychological effect of lugging around an ineffective LAW is too great to ignore...
Wish some people would actually think before deciding NOT to fight too... I seem to know too many people who claim that they would just as soon desert a sinking ship... So much for National Education... While I don't approve of fanatical expressions of belligerent, jingoistic nationalism, such blatant expressions of defeatism does seem rather sickening...
Like... are we Singaporeans for better or worse or are we just here to enjoy the peacetime freebees until it runs out? Cheese... -
Does the Malaysian media believe that the country will become more powerful after the PT-91 purchase? I don't think there's any right or wrong answers, but one can draw his own conclusion from the following article:
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Source: The Malay Mail
Date: 25 March 2002
Title: More power for Malaysia?
Writer: Marhalim Abas
WILL the impending purchase of the Polish-made PT-91 main battle tanks (MBT) for the Malaysian Army tip the military balance in her favour?
Ananlysts told The Malay Mail that they would not.
"Everyone in the region knew that the army had planned to acquire MBTs since the 1980s after the Communist Party agreed to lay down their arms," said an expert.
"If the numbers are correct, 72 MBTs will not tip the scale in our favour. If we bought 1,000 tanks, that's another matter."
Prime Minister Datuk Seri Dr Mahathir Mohamad announced on Saturday that the Government had agreed to purchase the tanks from Poland.
Though he did not specify their numbers, a local daily reported that 72 PT-91s would be acquired.
They are an upgraded version of the T-72 MBT which is the mainstay of the Russian army and its allies.
The analyst said the Singapore Army, with its three Combined Arms divisions, was probably the most potent force, "pound-for-pound" in the region.
He said with 72 tanks, the best the Malaysian Army can do is to set up an armoured or Combined Arms brigade.
"It will be like the Combined Arms division in Singapore. A Combined Arms brigade will have at least two tanks and infantry batallions supported by an equal number of artillery, engineers and signal troops."
"The brigade will also need an integral airlift capability."
He said there is also the need for close air support with attack helicopters or fighter bombers or both. The three Singapore Combined Arms divisions have at least two brigades attached to each.
He said Singapore had taken steps to counter the perceived threat by buying at least 12 AH-64D Long-bow Apache attack helicopters from the United States. They are expected to be delivered in 2004, two years ahead of schedule.
The analyst said the Malaysian Army needs another RM3 billion to ensure they could form a combat-capable Combined Arms brigade.
He said the Malaysian Army needs at least RM10 billion to upgrade its six divisions. -
According to m'sia Defence Minister Datuk Seri Najib Tun Razak, the MBT will not damage their roads. Don't tell me that their Armour is going to put on that rubber all the time?
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Source: BERNAMA The Malaysian National News Agency
Date: 1 Apr. 2002
Article: BATTLE TANKS WILL NOT DAMAGE ROADS, ASSURES NAJIB.
KAJANG, April 1 (Bernama) - Defence Minister Datuk Seri Najib Tun Razak today assured the public that the use of main battle tanks would not cause damage to roads in the country.
He said the 45-tonne PT-91 main battle tank, Poland's version of the Russian T-72, would not damage the roads as it will transported on trailers for mobility.
"We have bought low-loaders (trailers). Apart from that, the tanks would be fitted with rubber tracks," he said after performing the ground-breaking ceremony for the Defence Science and Technology Reserach Institute (IPSTP) in Semenyih near here.
The rubber tracks may be installed on the PT-91 tanks by local firms which had developed the technology. Such tracks have been used by the army's tracked vehicles like the Scorpion light tanks and Stormer armoured personnel carriers.
In the past, plans to use heavy battle tanks came under public criticism as it was feared that local roads and geological structures may not be able to withstand the tanks' massive weight.
Najib said he expected Malaysia to have a regiment of PT-91 tanks, to be purchased from Poland as announced by Prime Minister Datuk Seri Dr Mahathir Mohamad during his recent visit to the country.
A tank regiment has some 50 battle tanks.
On the IPSTP, Najib hoped it would catalyse the local defence technologies which would in turn enhance Malaysia's rapidly developing defence industries.
The first phase of the IPSTP, developed at the cost of RM26 million, is due for completion July next year. -
Here's an interesting way of how the m'sia media measure the ability of PT-91:
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Title: How the PT-91 measures up against the rest
From: The Malay Mail (25 Mar 2001)HOW would the PT-91 fare in battle? One should look at the performance of the Russian T-72s since the Polish-made PT-91s were modelled after the former.
The T-72, an updated model of earlier T-54 and T-62 MBTs, was among the first to dispense with the fourth crew member - the gun-loader - when the manufacturers came out with an auto-loader.
Experts disagreed whether the auto-loader gave the T-72 crew an advantage over other tanks.
It helped the designer to reduce the tank turret to just 2.19 metre. But some pointed out that the auto-loader could be damaged in battle or due to wear-and-tear.
The T-72 was the mainstay of the tank armies in the Middle East. It saw combat in the Iran-Iraq and the 1991 Gulf Wars.
The T-72 first saw action in Lebanon, with the Syrian Army opposing Israeli tanks.
Though the Israelis claimed that the Russian tanks were not up to par with the US or British-made tanks, many of the vehicles captured were later modified and thrust into its own service.
During the Iran-Iraq war, the T-72 served both sides with mixed results.
Some 10 years after that war ended, the Iraqi T-72 faced the Coalition forces equipped with the most advanced tank forces from the US and Britain.
The Iraqi armour was ground down and most of the tanks were destroyed by airplanes which enjoyed air superiority.
Western military experts again cited inept leadership and lack of training as reasons for the poor showing by the Iraqi armoured forces.
They also said that rounds fired from the 125mm gun of the Russian tanks failed to penetrate the armour on the US-made M1A2 Abrams and British Challenger MBTs. -
The m'sian military are really keen for shopping. Ya, after the tanks, they are having "serious" thoughts for aircrafts. If not wrong, Dr.M will be visiting Russia soon after the Poland tour. Will there be another lobbying process in Russia for Dr.M to order the SU-30?
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Article: Shopping for new fighters (by Marhalim Abas)
Newspaper: The Malay Mail (12 Apr 2002)
THE Defence Ministry has selected the Russian Sukhoi Su-30MKM Flanker and the Boeing F/A-18F Super Hornet to fill the RMAF's multi-role combat aircraft (MRCA) requirement, in a deal worth more than RM3 billion.
Defence Ministry sources told The Malay Mail that negotiations were on-going with both manufacturers. Negotiations are expected to be finalised soon.
Defence Minister Datuk Seri Najib Tun Razak, at a Press conference yesterday at the end of the Defence Services Asia 2002 (DSA) Exhibition and Conference, confirmed that the MRCA contract would be finalised soon.
He, however, did not mention the aircraft that has been selected.
The Malay Mail learnt that current negotiations for the purchase of the Su-30s and Super Hornets were mostly centred on technical details and costs.
The number of aircraft to be purchased will be between 16 and 24 units.
However, it was unclear how many Su-30s or Super Hornets will be delivered.
An RMAF officer who declined to be identified, said the mix would probably be 16 Su-30s and eight Super Hornets, just like the deal that was secured in 1993 for the purchase of the MiG-29N Fulcrum fighter and the F/A-18D Hornet strike fighter.
A Defence Ministry official confirmed that both aircraft have been chosen for the MRCA programme.
"The Ministry has made its choice. It is going over the avionics and weapons fit," he said.
It was learnt that the Sukhoi aircraft is expected to be equipped with Russian and French-made avionics.
The aircraft itself would be the MKM variant which is built specifically for Malaysia.
Another issue is whether or not the Russian manufacturer is willing for the purchase to be paid partly in palm oil.
It has been reported that the Su-30 costs in the region of US$35 million (RM133 million) apiece. It was expected that the Russian plane would be fitted with the most advanced Russian-made air-to-air and air-to-ground missiles.
"For the Super Hornet, the Ministry is concentrating on the weapons fit. The Americans are apparently not willing to release some of the weapons that we want," a high-ranking Defence Ministry official said.
Although he did not elaborate on the weapons Malaysia is seeking, it was learnt that the RMAF seeks to acquire the AIM-120C Advanced Medium Range Air-to-Air Missile.
The US has cleared the export of the missile, better known as Amraam, only to Thailand and Singapore.
However, the missiles purchased by both countries are currently stored in the US and would only be delivered if there was an urgent need.
The Malay Mail also learnt that the Ministry had proposed to Sukhoi to buy back the MiG-29Ns in service with the RMAF as part payment for selecting their airplanes.
Boeing had proposed a similar scheme if the Super Hornet was selected by Malaysia.
It was learnt that both jets would be in service with the RMAF by 2007. The Super Hornet costs in the region of US$40 million (RM152 million) apiece. The RMAF operates 17 MiG-29N Fulcrums and eight F/A-18D Hornets. -
interesting news clips.
glad that Malaysia's aircraft purchases are NOT big enough for them to negotiate a liceanse to produce the planes like India & China does. nor do they have the technical capability to liceanse manufacture them. i think it's a bad idea for them to split up the purchase & buy 2 different planes. they should stick to the SU-30MKM instead of buying the 8 F-18's.
just read some articles about Korean's F-15 contract. they apparently had to make a political decision to choose the F-15 even though the French offered them more tech transfer & lower price.
If your order is big enough you might be able to negotiate a liceanse to manufacture. course depending if you have the technical capabilities. I wonder if S'pore has the capability to manufacture under liceanse?
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"Is it me or the sword you want?"~Jen Yu
CROUCHING TIGER HIDDEN DRAGON -
They've done it again. Buying piecemeal from both the US and Russia. While the 2 types are not bad aircraft in themselves, whats the point of having 16 of 1 type and 8 of the other? Wouldn't it simply make more sense to get more of one type and forget the other? Its not like both are specialised type, both are fully capable multirole platforms. Instead of buying 2 types and screwing up both in terms of crew and technical proficiency like the MiGs and Hornets, why don't they stick to one type and master it?
They're the only country I know that buys advanced top of the line jets and use them for 10 years before junking them. And aircraft with so much scope for upgrading at that.
They still have't learnt from the MiG/Bug/Hawk experience. Well so much the better. -
*laff*...how much do U think you know abt my airforce..*laff*...when since did we hire a KNS like U....Originally posted by Viper52:They've done it again. Buying piecemeal from both the US and Russia. While the 2 types are not bad aircraft in themselves, whats the point of having 16 of 1 type and 8 of the other? Wouldn't it simply make more sense to get more of one type and forget the other? Its not like both are specialised type, both are fully capable multirole platforms. Instead of buying 2 types and screwing up both in terms of crew and technical proficiency like the MiGs and Hornets, why don't they stick to one type and master it?
They're the only country I know that buys advanced top of the line jets and use them for 10 years before junking them. And aircraft with so much scope for upgrading at that.
They still have't learnt from the MiG/Bug/Hawk experience. Well so much the better.
Go and f**k your F-16 C/D...the spine is great for anal....*laff* -
*laff*...so many PT-91 "experts" here...Let me tell U losers...Your Jewish Spike is good for anal only *laff*...Now I know Y U all Spores all full of Shit...and asshole so big *laff*
Heard that your ST-Kinetics is developing a pirate Humvee.
That's great *laff* now U Shitholes can have something to hump on and not rape Your women to produce soldiers..
Ta -
hello
I am someone who has been following this topic from the starting post and I must comment on certain things. Besides the doubts surrounding the morale and fighting qualities of the singaporean soldiers, another thing that we should be beware of is hubris. I am worried about the complancency that might be incalculated in our soldiers during the NE lessons be it in school or the SAF. True we want our soldiers and citizens to have confidence in our defence capabilities but then we should avoid the pitfalls of believeing ourselves too strongly and underestimating our opponents. The consequences of this is all too clear - just ask the Israelis regarding the 1973 Yom Kippur war. The point to note in this war is not the outcome - an Israeli victory but one incurred at a much higher cost and duration than the previous wars - but rather the prelude to the war with particular emphasis on the glaring intelligence failure and analysis coupled with the overconfidence and arrogance the Israelis have prior to the outbreak. Another thing I must say is the anatagonistic attitude adopted by certain indiviuals here such as FuckSpore4ever, RMN - Best. I would not say that he is definitely a Malaysian. Whatever his nationality, he is a disgrace to himself and the nation and society which he grows up him. I would urge contributors not to respond to his provocation in kind.