Singapore At War
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Singapore has a long standing friendship will the People republic of china since Mr Lee our SM visited china quite often during his early political era.china deng xiaopin was a friend to LKY.
China has been send uni student by the thousands to singapore annually to gain knowledge about singapore city management.etc
If we are not close 2 china then y china propose to allow singapore military to train in hainan island,the primary motive is to draw singapore's contract with taiwan,secondarily because they treated us as brother not as enemy,in some extend they trust us cos of our continuously assisting them in their develop particularly in SUZHOU
without us ..dun except SUZHOUS to be a well developed provinces
of china which the Central governement took pride in
regarding Tiananmen incident i agree it is cruel and inhuman.........and severe violation of human right BUT imagine what will be the out come if china CG give in......SHE will became a second former soviet Union her citizens will be a frequently starting riots over minor problem just like the S.korea.Pal dun just touch on the surface dig deep into it dun just make conclusion by seeing externally
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On the contrary, I think your arguments are very "surface" and shallow.Originally posted by Orcishwarrior:Singapore has a long standing friendship will the People republic of china since Mr Lee our SM visited china quite often during his early political era.china deng xiaopin was a friend to LKY.
China has been send uni student by the thousands to singapore annually to gain knowledge about singapore city management.etc
If we are not close 2 china then y china propose to allow singapore military to train in hainan island,the primary motive is to draw singapore's contract with taiwan,secondarily because they treated us as brother not as enemy,in some extend they trust us cos of our continuously assisting them in their develop particularly in SUZHOU
without us ..dun except SUZHOUS to be a well developed provinces
of china which the Central governement took pride in
regarding Tiananmen incident i agree it is cruel and inhuman.........and severe violation of human right BUT imagine what will be the out come if china CG give in......SHE will became a second former soviet Union her citizens will be a frequently starting riots over minor problem just like the S.korea.Pal dun just touch on the surface dig deep into it dun just make conclusion by seeing externally
There are deeper implications than that you have mentioned here.
Firstly, SM Lee is not a real friend of Deng xiaoping, but I can't deny that their relationship are pretty cordial and warm. Don't forget that SM Lee with Jiang jinguo (the late Taiwan president) was on a real friendship level. The Chinese Communist govt are warm to SM Lee for his connection to Taiwan. Anything that can sway anyone from Taiwan, the mainland govt would use. Look at how they snatched Naru's govt to recognised them from Taiwan recently. Had SM Lee not had so much influence (in terms of his opinions) over Taiwan, and his personal friendship with Jiang, China would not even entertain Singapore unless Singapore has direct diplomatic relationship with Taiwan.
Secondly, didn't you hear, read or understand that Singapore govt's participation in Suzhou Industrial park was a major failure. Sing govt lost billions over there... In fact, the suzhou provincial govt set up another Industrial park and was promoting their own overseas. Singapore's industrial park was left out in the cold. Many of the so called joint-venture did not produce the goods we all were hoping for.
Thirdly, as for the mainlander trying to lure SAF to use Hainan instead of Taiwan, its another political ploy to isolate Taiwan's international standing... get real about how China really view Singapore as friends.... If SAF does not use Taiwan for training, I can almost assure you that China wouldn't have made the same gesture.
China treated us as brothers? Are you sure? other than the same colour skin, we have nothing in common with them. In fact, we are closer (unofficially) with Taiwan (militarily, socially, economically) than to China. The relationship between Singapore and China is based on mutual benefits. Singapore need China's market. China needs Singapore influence in the region, that is all. Singapore and Taiwan's relationship are not based on any of the above.
Look, what is Singapore with a population of 3 million with 70+% chinese. Taiwan has a much larger population and yet the mainland govt would not even blink if the whole population plus their 100 over million in the south China region annihilated in a "civil war".
Finally, the US has over and over again proved to be a better friend eventhough it doesn't come for free (at times). Sometimes the US can be rather unreasonable and act as a bully, but at least, they are more predictable and history has tell us that they are so much more reliable as a big brother. -
I want to reply first to whether Singapore can win a war.
I say YES to a large extent.
There are several advantages in Singapore's favour.
Singapore is able to field a 300,000 strong defence force within six hours, supposing our NSman turn up. Its technology, which includes many force multipliers such as air-to-air refueling aircraft and early airborne warning aircraft, will enable to have an edge over its potential aggressor. Singapore currently has the most effective force in South-east Asia. However, there are certain points to be considered, especially in the event of war with Malaysia, our closest and not-so-very-friendly neighbour. They have 18 Atos II MLRS while Singapore does not have any MLRS. They also have 8 F/A-18 fighter/attack planes. These may severly damage, if not cripple the army later if not taken out by the airforce fast. Also, Malaysia is able to turn what is usually a tactical weapon, artillery, into a tactical weapon simply by placing it at the southern most tip of Johore, where it will be able to strike at virtually the whole of Singapore.
By missile attack, I assume ICBMs, SLBMs and other ballistic missiles. While it is true that Singapore does not have the ability to defend against such weapons, it is improbable and highly unlikely that such an attack will be made against Singapore in the forseeable future. This is for the simple fact that no country in the region possess any ballistic missiles. The closest owners of such weapons would most likely be India and China.
Another important point is the morale of the people of Singapore. Many posts on this forum think or even 'know' that SIngapore will not survive any attack. This only goes to show the fragility of many Singaporeans' state of mind. Not having the confidence of the people in the SAF, rather than the effectiveness of its force, should be Singapore's biggest fear in the event of an attack. This is bause there is a physical cure to improve the effectiveness or 'potency' of SAF, but none for the psychological state of mind of its people. To attempt to build up the confidence of the people in the SAF, the SIngapore government in 2000 paraded many pieces of military hardware. However, the comments of many people in this post have clearly shown that the government has failed. How many of the 350,000 NSmen will turn up to defend SIngapore, none of us will know. Hopefully, the negative posts here will not reflect the number of NSmen who turn up.
Singapore would certainly have to launch an attack and not solely defend in any war. This is because Singapore does not have any hinterland to fall back on and give up some land to the enemy hoping it can regroup and later launch an attack to take its land back. Proof that this is included in planning for defence includes the large number of A-4SU aircraft which, like the 'A' in their name suggests, are generally for attacking of land targets. In the event SIngapore faces off with with Malaysia, it will most certainly capture up to a certain part of Johore. This is because Singapore has to ensure its supply of water first (until NEwater comes out). Also, Johore's large population of Chinese in comparison with the numbers of its Malays mean that there will be less change in its racial balance.
A point in relative to war with Malaysia and Indonesia would be the loyalty of the Malays in the SAF. Would Singapore's Malays be willing to fight against Malays of other countries to defend their own homeland? This has become less of an issue lately as seen by the number of Malays who stood on the side of SIngapore when facing critisicms from Malaysia and Indonesia. Some Malays have also become pilots and others have been trusted with many high-tech and often vital hardware of the SAF. This clearly shows a very positive change of attitude toward Malays in Singapore.
SIngapore also has many defence links with other countries. For example, Singapore enjoys a close defence relationship with Brunei, which also shares its borders with Malaysia. Thus, Malaysia also faces the possibility of having to wage war on 2 fronts if it invades other Singapore or Brunei and the other comes to the aid of the ocuntry being attack. Malaysia is certainly not capable of having such a war given its current capabilities.
While many may argue, correctly, that Indonesia's large population may prove decisive in any war it wages with SIngapore, Indonesia's armed forces do not enjoy the same standards of training and technology as the SAF. It was also crippled by civil and political unrest which has only began to subside recently.
This is not a complete list of Singapore's advantages and disadvantages but it should be sufficient for us to believe that Singapore capable of defending itself against any aggressor, but only if we are willing to do it and have the confidence in the SAF. -
I agree completely with laser51088. What he posted is all "textbook" stuff. Most Singaporeans do not have faith in the defence of the country, just pick anyone off the streets and ask, the reply will most probably be "Cannot lah! we so small! attacker can makan us in a day!".
On the other hand, it will be no good if the people are overly confident in our armed forces, may lead to conflicts with other countries easily. The omportant thing is to strike a good balance between knowledge of our capabilities and confidence of our forces to hold off agressors. -
Actually... if anyone on the street or in my company ask me IF SAF can defend singapore... i also say no one...Originally posted by EXCO:I agree completely with laser51088. What he posted is all "textbook" stuff. Most Singaporeans do not have faith in the defence of the country, just pick anyone off the streets and ask, the reply will most probably be "Cannot lah! we so small! attacker can makan us in a day!".
On the other hand, it will be no good if the people are overly confident in our armed forces, may lead to conflicts with other countries easily. The omportant thing is to strike a good balance between knowledge of our capabilities and confidence of our forces to hold off agressors.
Not because i really believe that SAF cannot defend singapore...
BUT because... there are so many malaysian, indonesian, pinos and other nationals working in singapore... one must... learn to be humble lah... hahaaa....
I mean... to be very frank...
many countries have citizens like Malaysians, they hates to hear how powerful SAF is... they very stuck up one... when it come to matters of national pride... those malaysian are very very narrow minded and small hearted one.... they cannot swallow the fact that their country is weak.... so in order to be friendly and kind... to them... we must be diplomatic..... in truth?? I firmly believe SAF can crush MAF is under 1 week!
But.... understandable... no body like bad news... just like nobody likes to be look down upon by someone from a much much smaller nation.... its all very understanding....
We.. as singaporeans... though our SAF is strong and powerful... we must learn to be humble... cannot be haughty towards our neighbour..... we need to stand firm... but dont need to be overbearing.....
We... must be kind.... and not go around mouthing bad stuffs about MAF..... we are afterall, educated people... not boorish fanatics... come on........ show some humility..... -
To those who are still uncertain, read Defending the Lion City, a very well written book on the capabilities of the SAF. One of the things I learned from that book was that the RSAF has more combat aircraft than our neighbours up north and south COMBINED.
And in this day and age, having air superiority is half the war won.
So the answer is YES, we can survive an attack from anyone in the vicinity. But of course not against USA or the Russians. heehee...
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Hi there!
This is the First time posting message. i dunno how many of you actually went through NS, but I Think it will be sad if people who went through NS still have persimistic view of the SAF.
I went through NS like most male Singaporeans go through. Though it is shitty...but guess all these are necessary. When u think back after your NS, it is quite fun also right? especially when u started working....going back to reservist is like going back to holiday camp and getting away from the ever piling paper work
those of you who kept on posting message saying if our neighbour cut off water supply... we will die and blar blar blar... There is already alot of contigency plan drawn out. I believe those who are officers or regulars know that too.
Finally, I would like to apologise if i have offended anyone in my above message. But whatever i have written above is just a minor point of my view and how i feel -
Yep, Defending the Lion City (by Tim Huxley) is a very good book. Though it probably projects an overly optimistic view of the SAF. Also, some of its information may be outdated because it was published some time ago. However, it is still VERY informative. About the most comprehensive book on the SAF ever... especially its appendixes which contain the assets of SAF, the organisation, etc.
Also can download the 'The Asian Conventional Military Balance in 2002: South-east Asia'. Its a pdf file and not that hard to find. Basically its some graphs and charts on armed forces of the region, including New Zealand and Australia.
Can also Singapore in the New Millennium: Challenges facing the city-state. Edited by Derek De Chunha. There is a pretty informative article inside by the editor about Singapore's defence and threats. It also mentions the fragility of Singapore's morale. -
Morale is not something u can measure accurately in peacetime... of course you feel sian and pissed off when u get called up for reservist... especially if your company is in the process of downsizing =P or if there's a promotion on the way and they're evaluating YOU... lets be frank... it is very trying on our patience under the best of circumstances...Originally posted by laser51088:... It also mentions the fragility of Singapore's morale.
But are u gonna feel the same when live rounds are flying over your head and you had better complete the advance and dig in or else... nobody's born a good soldier... thats what training is for! to replace individual talents with mass-produced competence. -
thanks for the comments/reply
I suppose i can't judge on how I will feel or react too until i do my NS which is still some years to come 'cos i'm only in Sec2 this year (14yrs old) -
patheticOriginally posted by Joe Black:Actually, contrary to the popular beliefs, Singapore govt, Snr Prime Minister Lee, is known to see China as a "strategic opponent", and thus the Sg govt are constantly engaging the US, and having the US to maintain their presence in SEA and offer Sg as a logistic base for the US Navy (darn, if only our land size is bigger, you might see a whole US AF base here), etc. Sg sees China as a economic partner only and that is just that. Politically and militarily, China is not compatible with Sg. There is no direct threat to Sg from China but neither any political benefits. If Sg is under foreign attack, guess who would come to our rescue? China or the US? It most likely be US, Australia and Britan.
Yes, most of us are yellow in color and we do have a closer enthic and blood relationship with the Chinese, but do remember this, the Chinese govt did not blink an eye when they rolled their tank in Tian an meng square, why would one think they care about Singapore at all.
A domocratic chinese govt might be different, but for the time being, we know that the communist govt doesn't care less if it has to sacrifices 100 million or more population (on its side alone, btw, statistically, it doesn't even mean much to its 1.5 billion population) just to take over Taiwan. For now, I will say, less make friends with them but never be close. I would rather have US as my friend.
US as friend...wahahaha
lotsa country would love to tickles US balls
pls read up the fact not just ur own feeling abt Communist China(i dunno much)
btw i rather have a devil on my side den US.. -
I can't help notice half of our strike arsenal is stationed at any one time in some overseas bases, e.g.
Fighters/Copters in US, Australia, Thailand, France, Taiwan
Naval in Sweden, France
Tanks in Brunei, Taiwan, Australia, SA
Missile stockpile in US, Israel
With only half strength, in time of crisis, will there be enough LSTs to ship all them back in time
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dont worry lah.... if we are gonna go to war... rest assured we will recall all our planes... we can actually use the recalling of all our oversea planes as a final warning to our enemy that war is coming... if they refuse to see things... our way lah.....Originally posted by bigballs11:I can't help notice half of our strike arsenal is stationed at any one time in some overseas bases, e.g.
Fighters/Copters in US, Australia, Thailand, France, Taiwan
Naval in Sweden, France
Tanks in Brunei, Taiwan, Australia, SA
Missile stockpile in US, Israel
With only half strength, in time of crisis, will there be enough LSTs to ship all them back in time 
and dont worry about malaysia suddenly attack us... cos they will need alot of preparation prior to going to war... preparations that will not go unnoticed... like POL AMMO stockpiling..... movement of troops and vehicles.... not so simple one....
and even if they managed to hit us somehow... we still have half the air power which is still larger then their entire air force PLUS our ground base SAMs to help hold the line..... -
Well, true. The recall of our overseas forces will send an extremely strong signal. The heavier equipment may take longer to arrive, but the planes will arrive in few days.
and even if they managed to hit us somehow... we still have half the air power which is still larger then their entire air force PLUS our ground base SAMs to help hold the line.....
Sneak attack against SG is unlikely, given our AWAS coverage. Even if somehow a sneak attack somehow succeeded, those planes based overseas will render us the ability to strike back. Sort of not putting all your eggs in the same basket.
I am sure this scenerio is played out countless times by Mindef planners, and plans drawn up to counter it. So no worries. One thing about SAF is we never reveal our aces easily. -
Malaysia wouldnt want a intense military conflict with singapore.RSAF has the capability which majority of SEA region nations dont.The close coordination between the military ground station and E2C Awacs make singapore having the region most advance integrated C4I which will secure us from sudden military aggression from hostile nations.
Singapore "delta project" frigates consist of Aster 15 missiles which has a range of 30 km that is a confirm.I think singapore is reasonably safe from air attack as the defense shield covers most part of singapore including territorial water.I assure u that the enemy airforce will suffer a heavy causlties if they have any intention to fly that plane over our land..........anyway the airforce is our true guardian.Billions has been invested into the airforce -
I keep saying the same thing! wars are not won entirely over the air!
u need grunts to occupy the grounds the air clears and SG seems VERY tank-light at the moment... wish there was a more re-assuring armoured capability... -
I do not think tank is a major issue in land war la, especially with some crappy polish PT-90 with reactive armour dressing (basically a tank covered with explosive). We currently have countermeasures against even the most hard shell iron clad. We do have assembly plant to manufacture these tandam warhead AT weapon locally. (the only limitation is they are "haram" device, no offence)Originally posted by CX:I keep saying the same thing! wars are not won entirely over the air!
u need grunts to occupy the grounds the air clears and SG seems VERY tank-light at the moment... wish there was a more re-assuring armoured capability...
Gill - 2.5km, 800mm penetration, portable 1 man shoulder fired
Spike - 4km, 800mm penetration, tripod fired
NT-D - 10km, 1500mm penetration, tripod/heli fired
The only question is will Gill be issue at section level to replace our antique Armburst. I won't want to engage an MBT with "popcorn" armburst man, that's sucidal man -
Actually the Barak Point Defence Missile will be the best weapon for such scenario. We do have assembly plant to manufacture such weapon locally, not to mention the technical know-how to improve the system. In the pipeline there is plan to built a land based Barak lanuch system on 3 tonners and further development of Barak ER (Extended Range) to overcome the 10km range limitations and Super Barak to counter supersonic cruise missileOriginally posted by Orcishwarrior:Singapore "delta project" frigates consist of Aster 15 missiles which has a range of 30 km that is a confirm.I think singapore is reasonably safe from air attack as the defense shield covers most part of singapore including territorial water.I assure u that the enemy airforce will suffer a heavy causlties if they have any intention to fly that plane over our land..........anyway the airforce is our true guardian.Billions has been invested into the airforce -
Huh? Where did you get the info about Sg locally assemble the Barak. Must have gotten a real good deal with IAI then. I thought ST Aero and IAI relationship were sour not too long ago. Furthermore, Sg also has the license to locally assemble SA-19 Igla. I think the military planners are getting really smart huh! I would really like to see the following license built:Originally posted by bigballs11:Actually the Barak Point Defence Missile will be the best weapon for such scenario. We do have assembly plant to manufacture such weapon locally, not to mention the technical know-how to improve the system. In the pipeline there is plan to built a land based Barak lanuch system on 3 tonners and further development of Barak ER (Extended Range) to overcome the 10km range limitations and Super Barak to counter supersonic cruise missile
1. Spike
2. Next gen man-portable light weight AT to supplement the armbrust. Armbrust is still good at destroying bunkers and in close quarter combat (FIBUA).
3. Gabriel 2/3 - and possibly the air-launch version which can be carried by the Vipers. -
Spike and barak is lisence built.Saw it in the asian aerospace 2002
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Cool... perhaps Singapore should license build Python 4 and Mistral. Singapore would then be quite self sufficient in WVR Air to Air missiles and Manpad SAMs.Originally posted by CenturionMBT:Spike and barak is lisence built.Saw it in the asian aerospace 2002
BTW, I thought IAI has already come up with a land-based version of Barak. Is SADA going to replace the Rapiers with that? -
Israel missiles are designed by the Rafael (Spike, Barak, Python etc). In fact Spike is a join venture pet project between Rafael and Singapore, Barak project is funded by Singapore and Chile. This sort of win-win venture not only help cash stripped Israel fund new weapon development and provide a secure overseas plant to manufacture the goods for them. We also gain the technical know how to further develop/upgrade the weapon plus cut down development cost.Originally posted by Joe Black:Cool... perhaps Singapore should license build Python 4 and Mistral. Singapore would then be quite self sufficient in WVR Air to Air missiles and Manpad SAMs.
BTW, I thought IAI has already come up with a land-based version of Barak. Is SADA going to replace the Rapiers with that?
Some project in the pipeline (from my spy network):
Barak land based point defence missile system(our own integrated missile defence system), I believe it not only replace the Rapier but add in new capabilities like all weather anti missile/aircraft, narrow band directional radar tracking/guidance system against radar locking ASM...bla bla bla
NT-D integration to Apache/copters, provide same capabilities like Hellfire 2 in case we run out of the 200 shots in store.
Heard barak can also easily modified to provide some kind of point defence SSM capabilities (aka terrorist sampan speedboat?!?). -
Cool man, thanks for your input... it is always very good to know that DSTA, DSO and ST involved in some really good stuffs like that.Originally posted by bigballs11:Israel missiles are designed by the Rafael (Spike, Barak, Python etc). In fact Spike is a join venture pet project between Rafael and Singapore, Barak project is funded by Singapore and Chile. This sort of win-win venture not only help cash stripped Israel fund new weapon development and provide a secure overseas plant to manufacture the goods for them. We also gain the technical know how to further develop/upgrade the weapon plus cut down development cost.
Some project in the pipeline (from my spy network):
Barak land based point defence missile system(our own integrated missile defence system), I believe it not only replace the Rapier but add in new capabilities like all weather anti missile/aircraft, narrow band directional radar tracking/guidance system against radar locking ASM...bla bla bla
NT-D integration to Apache/copters, provide same capabilities like Hellfire 2 in case we run out of the 200 shots in store.
Heard barak can also easily modified to provide some kind of point defence SSM capabilities (aka terrorist sampan speedboat?!?).
BTW, does anyone know what happens to Rafael? are they being bought over by some companies or what. Their website is down...
www.rafael.co.il
Another question I've got is that why isn't Singapore building its own PGM? Why is RSAF relying solely on the american's LGBs (GBU-10 and GBU-12)?
Israel produces some very good PGMs like Popeye, Griffin and ALGB, perhaps ST can license build these? -
I believe the website is temporary shut down against fanatics hackers...I don't think there is a problem to acquire Israel ASM, LGB as long as you have $$$, from ex-experience dealing with them, they will sell almost anything in their arsenal warehouse, even thermal nuclear warhead if you have tons of $$$.
What I can tell you is there's a lot of underground acquistion of certain capabilities which is never announced to the public, most in the form of technology transfer of know how, only a handful of people in the DMO and army weapon staff has access to such test programsOriginally posted by Joe Black:Cool man, thanks for your input... it is always very good to know that DSTA, DSO and ST involved in some really good stuffs like that.
BTW, does anyone know what happens to Rafael? are they being bought over by some companies or what. Their website is down...
www.rafael.co.il
Another question I've got is that why isn't Singapore building its own PGM? Why is RSAF relying solely on the american's LGBs (GBU-10 and GBU-12)?
Israel produces some very good PGMs like Popeye, Griffin and ALGB, perhaps ST can license build these? -
speaking about Israel and singapore defense relationship,do u remember a strait times news article on Singapore-Israel Satelite co-operation if i didnt recall wrongly singapore is said to invest S$1 billion into the satelite research while Israel will provide the technology the article was printed in yr 2000
.we have the reason to believe that military satelite is long being up in space without one noticing its present maybe it is launched under one of IAF satelite
as a cover up.
Singapore really cover stuff well to be kept really confidential but lack the depth of transparent over such things althru each armed force reserve the right not to announce to the public,it seems singapore just didnt even touch the borderline of the transparent
depth at least MY somehow done it.