Opinion on my life story
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Originally posted by Fugazzi:
Frankly, whether one is a Xtian or Taoist or .... is unimportant lar. What matters is whether one can understand, acknowledge and yet transcend one's bigotry, one's prejudice(s) and reconcile to the differences, the beliefs .... and yet relate to what others are. In this instance, your father is a 'conditioned' person and to change him or impose or even assert one's belief or ... is utterly foolish and unwise.
One who is mature and wise would understand and just go thru the ritual. Of course, it presupposes one has no fear of losing what thinks one is. What one thinks is not what one is. what one is BEING - is the true expereince.
It is the fear of losing (the religious belief) that is causing these melodrama or if u will, the psychodrama.
Without understanding, she may relent and do what your father or even u want her to do. However, it is going to later surface as a grievance. If she understands and acknowledges her insecurities, fears .... she may be acquiescent.
Maturity is acceptance of another's immaturity! The question is whether one is being mature or ....
On the contrary to your "View" that it is not so important that Xtian or Taoist...you sure or not??? his father was willing to emotional blackmail his son...just so that after he die he will be worshipped and remember in the "DeadZone".
TS father is already a senior citizen so what so inmature about? If a person did not learn for the last 50 & 60 years don't expect him/her to accept something out of extraordinary. While you left your reply open ended. you further confuesed this man further more.
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Originally posted by charlize:
If I am not mistaken, as long as your wife doesn't believe in joss sticks worshipping, she can just go through the motions without compromising her own faith.
Example, certain religious occasions require you to bow or offer incense or kneel or raise your hands etc. If you are not of the same religion, you may look out of place if everybody follows the ritual plus some people may see it as a form of disrespect if you don't follow. For practicalities' sake, just do what is required of you - as long as you don't believe in it, it is just an action being done - your faith in your own religion is not compromised.
Best if your father accepts that your wife has her own set of religious beliefs and not insist on her following his beliefs.
But different people have different opinions lah.
true christians wont even think of going through the motion..its as good as bowing down already..
to TS..let your wife decide man or God..
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This is not a life story.
Unless the TS was born a teenager/adult, got married on his first month birthday.
At the moment, its about a guy grumbling about fanatastical demands on religion.
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Love is the willingness to allow another that you care for (or love or ... )to be what he/she chooses for ... without any insistence that he/she satisfy you.
TS ; Observe the participants lar, cos conflict(s) cannot survive without one's participation.
It appears or seems to be that behind the facade of roles, responsibilites, personalities, religion ... all that is palpable is the subtle clashing of ego(s). It is an ego-trip!
PS : Maturing is a process, a growing up; aging is holding on 'dead' beleifs, the past, one is wasting away. I m not privy to the everyday occurrences or ... so it's for u and ... to understand or acknowledge who is BEING mature.
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Tsk tsk tsk.....
Hey TS......you is behaving like a little kid.
Some things you should know and should understand clearly, and should choose wise options and avoid conflicts.
First of all,
You shouldnt be so egoistical, thinking "how to win" , "how to stick to my principles", and so on.
You must know your position, your father's position, your father's underlying meaning, and the action's underlying meaning.
As a son, and actually, as a human being, it should be your goal to establish a harmonious family, and familial relationship. You as a newlywed especially have a duty to arrange a good foundation and configure everyone to settle down nicely.
In this aspect, I see you have failed big time.
Now that is the big picture, now let us look into more details.
First, the act of bowing with josstick, it represents a respect and a customs, and a continuation of traditions and family duty.
Your father has a big wish and hope on your shoulder that you as his son, and his new dauther-in-law, can carry on with this tradition.
What you do is not only breaking his hope and disappointing him, but you proceeded to enter into a contest with him to prove that you are a big man yourself now, and you can set your own rules.
Please evaluate your attitude and your value system.
And secondly,
Unless if your wife is a hardcore fundamentalist, a Christian Taliban, engaging in cross-religious activities as a sign of respect, tolerance, deference, family duty, and harmony-building, is NOT supposed to be a problem for her religiously. Do you understand this? Even the Catholic Pope could enter a mosque and kiss a Quran, I think you need to get a proper understanding regarding this matter and dont take a Taliban-like hardcore approach.
Thirdly,
You have not only complicated the situation with your father, but you failed your wife. You make her become disliked by her father-in-law. In this aspect you have again failed as a husband and couldn't protect her and think in her interest. You should have thought wisely and you should know that you should recommend to her to perform the josstick bowing action.
I am disappointed in your lack or maturity.
Fourth,
Now is the time you should step up as a REAL Man.
Real man dont think how to fight, but brave enough how to bend over in act of humility and self-sacrifice, and think of the best interest of everyone around you.
So now you should think how to apologize to your father, and how to correct the relations of your wife with your father, and how to perform josstick bowing actions in the future.
Dont be like a little kid.
Veggie Bao.
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Respect the elders so that the next generation can model you and respect you back!
Of cos you may say, I don't have any kids or I don't want to have any kids. But again, everything we done in this life will be recorded somewhere, hahaha....
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Religion.....
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Since getting a new father or a new wife is out of the question, I guess what Veggie Bao suggested above would be the best solution.
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To veggie bao,
1) about the "how to win" aspect.
Although i do admit that i do have this ego within me, but certainly i DO NOT have this when i'm making a decision. so pls don't put words INTO me and insists me being one
2) establish a harmonious family
I believe that there's a limit in your so-called tolerence. If what u say include all possible situation, pls ask yourself if u can accept it if i ask your wife(or your husband ask u) to sleep with your dad just to make him happy?! i believe u cannot accept it. So i would say that there's a limit in things that u can accept, no?!
3) Duty
As u can see... in the chinese tradition, it has ALWAYS been the man that continous the ritual and that is ME not my wife. and u wanna try verifying, u will realise that in tradition women are NOT suppose to do ritual. And of course i have NEVER said i won't do it and he knows it.
4) Being a man
So are u trying to say, it's wrong of me to stop my dad from raping my wife if he wanted to? before we get into the topics of the seriousness of this matter.. do note... it is NOT about being a man... it is able what's right and what's wrong!! and i being a man to tell the old one that he is WRONG, not someone that hide under the table when he wanted to kick my wife in the face for the wrong reason.
5) complicated the situation
The situation has NEVER been complicated.
6) Failing my wife
the worst thing that i have done is to married her and land her in this shit. and this is the only point that i agreed from you.
I'm sorry to say this, but my opinion is unless u can change your mindset, u should never married or get married. If not i afraid u will only bring harm to your other half, but of course if he/she is willing then i salute him/her. If u are talking about maturity, i would say that your post reflect on your maturity as well. And i really do hope that more people can look at both mine and yours and give their fair piece of advises.
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You have not been willing to listen to my well-meant advices.
My advice is for your and your families welfare.
I am not your enemy.
You have a duty and responsibility as a husband, as a man, and as a son-in-law, and as an adult.
It is best you reconsider your stances.
First,
You have not been willing to do the first step, that is to get a serious evaluation of what your father request mean, what it represent and what it symbolizes.
Your act of equating it with a rape action, signifies you have skipped this step completely.
The action of asking your wife to do josstick bowing, is basically, to manifest respect, customs, traditions, and family duty. As a father, he has a wish and a hope that his new child, his new daughter-in-law, the new member of the family, can participate, he wants to pass down and incalculate this tradition to her.
I dont think your father is particularly religious either. Usually most ancestral worshipper/ Taoist/ Buddhist are actually non-religious or syncretistic or casual. For him it's just some rituals which he think is good.
This act of josstick bowing does not represent a religious conversion, or to pull your wife out of Christianity.
First you have to get these basics correct first.
So your wife, with a proper understanding that her act of josstick bowing does not mean religious conversion, but act of tolerance, respect, family duty, deference, and harmony-building, should not feel that it's such an obstacle either.
As I said, previously even the Catholic Pope entered a mosque and kissed a Quran.
This is from religious point, I think you should understand and get a more accurate picture.
If your wife still object after this, please ask her to come here to this forum and read this thread.
I can talk to her too.
But apart from religious aspects, as I can see from your above post, you are still "stubborn" and still think that you "must stand for your principles" but let me ask you this, what actually is the case now? Why must you stand for your principles and what are those principles, and who are violating your principles and agressing you anyway? Nobody.
So dont be stubborn.
You have to know this kind of attidude is an obstacle and a stumbling block and you must be willing to be less stubborn.
But I am glad you realize it is bad that your wife is now in an uncomfortable situation.
But actually not only her, but also your father, your mother, and even, you yourself, have been hurt.
So now please think, many people are hurt, you are the man, what solution can you figure out?
If you cant figure out a solution, then you fail the second time, after you failing the first time due to allowing it to happen in the first place.
My sincere advice for you, is to consider what I say, consider those requests of josstick bowing and then apologize and do it.
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* Actually I also want to ask you.....what is the condition of your wife? Is she really strongly against it?
I think firstly you try to talk to her and explain, like what I explained above. I think she should have some desire also to be a good daughter-in-law, and if this gesture can be explained appropriately, maybe she will understand and not object to it.
Try to explain to her, and see what is her reaction and her thinking.
But let's say, due to her religious conviction, she really doesnt want to do it, not even once, well that is also possible, and I am not saying you should force her. In that case then you explain to your father that she really cant do it due to her strong religious conviction. But to key here is to be nice and gentle. Dont be confrontational, and you just apologize on your wife behalf that she cant do it.
So it all depends on you and you must be a smart diplomat.
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first u dun think it has been a well-meant advise as all u did is to shoot without reasoning. but then again i can take it as u are not well-verse with word, neither am i.
about the raping part, i think u are conclusing that i miss the step of considering my dad's thought... so allow me to say what i think about him regards to this matter
1) he believe that chinese should continues the chinese tradition so he wanted me to continues the "line"
2) next, he insisted my wife to take it as he wanted the "whole family" to be part of the tradition and no one is left out
3) and since the above, the joss stick is a must as it is part of the action that ressemble the "whole family" action
if u think i'm wrong, then i would say u are wrong~~~!!!
so let's come to the stubborn part.. i do admit that i am stubborn, but i tends to sit down and think about things trying to take away my ego and etc... And if i'm really stubborn, i dun see the need to post for a opinion since i'm kinda accept myself as correct and my principles should never be violated and to make it worse, i expecting post like yours that may "violate" my principles.
Then i have a question, (this is purely illustration) if my wife tells me that she hope my parents can go to the church every sunday, and to be part of the family, she would need them to take part of the bible session and if not, she would want a divorce, should i tell my parents that since it's for the good of everyone, why don't they attend the church since it will not affect their faith? so as a man should i force my parents to go to the church?
but seriously your opinion of things seems VERY strong and i personally have the feeling that u have a kind of self-rightous in your opinion and u seems to relate your opinion as a advises, in this case i believe u use the word "advise" as u sincerely believe that u are right? no? ok i'm not going to on and on on this... it is not related to the topic
Anyway for the rest who gave your opinions on things, i sincerely thanks your opinion and time be it opinion favouring to me or not.
Thank you
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Yes.....so what do you think about your father wishes?
And actually what does your wife think about it?
Have you talked to her like that, like what you said in (1,2,3)
Because if you can put it forward like that and explained it that way, she might not object it so much because it's not really so much a religious issue anymore.
However, if she really does object to it, then I dont think you should force her either. In this case the solution is that you have to explain to your father nicely and politely and apologize on her behalf. Just play a good diplomat la.
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why is your father so unreasonable and like to kick up a fuss over nothing, or in this instance religion. I know those folks of the earlier generations are not highly educated and extremely religious and their thinking are not sophisticated and simple minded. but to disown you over this is a tad too extreme. go tell your father this is 2009 already and not in the 1920s Singapore or China, whereby the wife of the hubby has to obey the family, especially the in laws.
If you wife does not wish to perform the ritual, tell your father assertively and reason with him. if he doesnt listen, I suggest you approach your seniors among your relatives to mediate for you on this.
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i think my father will prefer to sucide than to step into a church... and i SERIOUS..
As for explaining the stuff to my wife... i'm sure she is more than willing to take the joss stick.. if i ask her ... and yes she is that nice... and of course she knows about it and we talk about it as well. But as u can see.. with point 2 which is important as well, including her to be part of the chinese tradition which include her being taoist which she isn't... and maybe i should bring out one more thing. during our tradition wedding she did take the joss stick just to be "fair" to my parents... although she HATES it, she didn't tell me that but i can feel, but she takes it. And my father also promise that that's the only time she has to take it... but then.. he starts to throw more shit at her again... so how? and again and again he betray her trust... and mine as well... but the most important thing is when will he stop that... playing diplomat has never been my strength..and i always speak what i think it is... but yet... everything he throw shit at everyone... everyone just has to take it... my mum... me... and now my wife... i seriously think that i shouldn't have married my wife... and bring suffering to her... she is inccoent and yet she is bounded to the shit on my shirt
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Ooohhh....no need so serious and pessimistic...dont worry la....
Actually I want to ask you what is the frequency that your father ask her to perform josstick bowing...?
If it is just once in a while, or in special occasions, I think it should be Ok for your wife.
If it is quite regular or frequent, and she doesnt like it, then you need to speak to your father but nicely.
But say she will still do it on important occasions. This way it wont totally disappoint him, and I think is also acceptable to your wife.
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Originally posted by QoP:
i think my father will prefer to sucide than to step into a church... and i SERIOUS..
As for explaining the stuff to my wife... i'm sure she is more than willing to take the joss stick.. if i ask her ... and yes she is that nice... and of course she knows about it and we talk about it as well. But as u can see.. with point 2 which is important as well, including her to be part of the chinese tradition which include her being taoist which she isn't... and maybe i should bring out one more thing. during our tradition wedding she did take the joss stick just to be "fair" to my parents... although she HATES it, she didn't tell me that but i can feel, but she takes it. And my father also promise that that's the only time she has to take it... but then.. he starts to throw more shit at her again... so how? and again and again he betray her trust... and mine as well... but the most important thing is when will he stop that... playing diplomat has never been my strength..and i always speak what i think it is... but yet... everything he throw shit at everyone... everyone just has to take it... my mum... me... and now my wife... i seriously think that i shouldn't have married my wife... and bring suffering to her... she is inccoent and yet she is bounded to the shit on my shirt
Saw parent done worst thing to their married children than your case. (been there worst than you and survived so not to worry)
But i would say that you should not feel any sense of regret of marrying a person you want to spend your life with. You want to start a new family you should stand up for it. The chemistry is deep that is why both of you together. The fact that your wify took up jostick in the believe that she commit a sin that show how much she is commited to YOU.
But some aspects of
1) Have you get your father go for MRI brain scanned for chemical inbalance or homonial changed sometime irrationale behavior could be a reaction to chemical imbalance. Man do gone thru Manopause.
2) Your father rejection of your wify could be fundamentally lies in what I call the fear factor of Taoist name carrying. Daugther in law will be the name carrier after he kicks the bucket. He may not be willing to be submissive to christian because he may feel that he can't enter the doorway.... (but still you need to find a lead way to further understand his perspective on reglion)
Let Your intention know that he cannot break both of you
3) Your father knows that you are not going to abondand him so he excerise the full emotional blackmail. You need to Tell your dad face on....whatever he does is not working You and your wife stayed married. Eventually you will have kids. And they might be christian. You as a son is the only Transitional Generation (meaning inbeween a Christian and Taoist/Buddhist
So PM me if you need feedback.
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Originally posted by Veggie Bao:
Ooohhh....no need so serious and pessimistic...dont worry la....
Actually I want to ask you what is the frequency that your father ask her to perform josstick bowing...?
If it is just once in a while, or in special occasions, I think it should be Ok for your wife.
If it is quite regular or frequent, and she doesnt like it, then you need to speak to your father but nicely.
But say she will still do it on important occasions. This way it wont totally disappoint him, and I think is also acceptable to your wife.
Have you dealt with first hand social problems or you are just kepo kepo?
How do you know it is okay for his wify? you the wify family's member? Do you know that some christian believe that it is a sins if he/she took up jostick?
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Originally posted by QoP:
i think my father will prefer to sucide than to step into a church... and i SERIOUS..
As for explaining the stuff to my wife... i'm sure she is more than willing to take the joss stick.. if i ask her ... and yes she is that nice... and of course she knows about it and we talk about it as well. But as u can see.. with point 2 which is important as well, including her to be part of the chinese tradition which include her being taoist which she isn't... and maybe i should bring out one more thing. during our tradition wedding she did take the joss stick just to be "fair" to my parents... although she HATES it, she didn't tell me that but i can feel, but she takes it. And my father also promise that that's the only time she has to take it... but then.. he starts to throw more shit at her again... so how? and again and again he betray her trust... and mine as well... but the most important thing is when will he stop that... playing diplomat has never been my strength..and i always speak what i think it is... but yet... everything he throw shit at everyone... everyone just has to take it... my mum... me... and now my wife... i seriously think that i shouldn't have married my wife... and bring suffering to her... she is inccoent and yet she is bounded to the shit on my shirt
Your father's behavior is a primal one.
Your father sees himself as the alpha male in the herd ( the family). The dominating leader of the family. The control freak.
You the son is the betta male.
The joss stick saga, is what your father does to initiate YOUR wife into HIS family.
By standing up to his unreasonal demands, you are challenging his authority. Hence his threat about disowning you or casting you out of HIS herd.
Betta males who lost alpha challenges, either goes back to the betta position or they leave the herd to start their own herd elsewhere and become alphas on their own.
I sense that you , are still very much dependent on your father's resources and thus is willing to continue your current submissive stance in the family.
Being in a submissive position never did bothered you before because your father's behavior only affected you (only).
However, marriage is a rite of passage which changes your social status and your wife is a significant change in your life, you are feeling frustrated in the status quo.
Bout time you become your own alpha male. And bout time your father face reality.
"i seriously think that i shouldn't have married my wife... and bring suffering to her... she is inccoent and yet she is bounded to the shit on my shirt" <---- this is a WUSS talking.
You can keep complaining and continue the self-pity "my wife is so screwed" act , or you can pull you and your wife out of the shit hole.
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Originally posted by jojobeach:
Your father's behavior is a primal one.
Your father sees himself as the alpha male in the herd ( the family). The dominating leader of the family. The control freak.
You the son is the betta male.
The joss stick saga, is what your father does to initiate YOUR wife into HIS family.
By standing up to his unreasonal demands, you are challenging his authority. Hence his threat about disowning you or casting you out of HIS herd.
Betta males who lost alpha challenges, either goes back to the betta position or they leave the herd to start their own herd elsewhere and become alphas on their own.
I sense that you , are still very much dependent on your father's resources and thus is willing to continue your current submissive stance in the family.
Being in a submissive position never did bothered you before because your father's behavior only affected you (only).
However, marriage is a rite of passage which changes your social status and your wife is a significant change in your life, you are feeling frustrated in the status quo.
Bout time you become your own alpha male. And bout time your father face reality.
"i seriously think that i shouldn't have married my wife... and bring suffering to her... she is inccoent and yet she is bounded to the shit on my shirt" <---- this is a WUSS talking.
You can keep complaining and continue the self-pity "my wife is so screwed" act , or you can pull you and your wife out of the shit hole.
I agree with this one. Your father does not have control over your family (you and your wife)
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Although i keep talking about the self-pity etc.. thingy, but i am NOT going to let this thought ruin my life and my relationship between my wife and I.In fact this only strengther my thought in taking better care of my wife and treat her "more fairly" and if i ever have kids, i should never be the so-call alpha male. So no matter how self-pity i may sound, i will only let this positively affect me :), to be a better man
As for the alpha male thingy, i'm not very into who is calling the shoot as long as the calling is fair :) and finally no i'm not dependant on my father, and in fact, that's the reaason why he can only blackmail me and yet this just doesn't work. In fact i stopped needed his money since i go nc and near to never needed his emotional support which in fact i have minimal from him and never wanted any from him. However i do need to care for my mum and she certainly need emotional support from my father. in this case, u can claim that i need his "resource", the resource in taking care of my mother emotional (irreplaceable by me caring for her and taking of her, and this is HER CHOICE, so i won't interfere with this one... this is her rights).
But i sincerely thanks everyone here. i will think about what can be done and what not to be done.
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Veggie Bao
Act of of bowing with joss stick is a sign of respect and custom - and continuation of tradition and family duty.
If like that - you sit infront of me - i take joss stick and bow to you - to give you all the respect you want, I burn some paper money to you out of tradition too !!!
Next my father read your posting not too happy as he is christain, he now have one big wish - he wish me to come over knock some sense into you, - so in order to carry on this tradition, i should come over with my wife to knock your head. Please let us beat you up, if not it will only break my dear father hope and disappoint him.
Because in you have no religion, and do not take it serious, mean you can suggest people to take it lightly. All religion is again forcing people to do things against their will, that true tradition !!!
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A belated congrats to getting hitched!
Originally posted by QoP:But as u can see.. with point 2 which is important as well, including her to be part of the chinese tradition which include her being taoist which she isn't...I think it'll be possible to bring up and emphasize the notion to your father that in this tradition, filial piety and religion is intermixed. So... the wife is a lil stumped about what it all represents and shes refraining.
Though I'm not really sure how the joss stick ritual goes, I want to suggest a slightly different gesture. As both hubby and wife stands before the altar, wife will slowly help take the joss stick, she will light it up and she will align the stick one at a time into hubby's hands rather.
Then together bow, hubby in prayer, wife in respect of past ancestors.What it shall mean is that wife will surely help hubby secure his traditions as much as she need so for her own.
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Originally posted by Gauze:
A belated congrats to getting hitched!
I think it'll be possible to bring up and emphasize the notion to your father that in this tradition, filial piety and religion is intermixed. So... the wife is a lil stumped about what it all represents and shes refraining.
Though I'm not really sure how the joss stick ritual goes, I want to suggest a slightly different gesture. As both hubby and wife stands before the altar, wife will slowly help take the joss stick, she will light it up and she will align the stick one at a time into hubby's hands rather.
Then together bow, hubby in prayer, wife in respect of past
ancestors.What it shall mean is that wife will surely help hubby secure his traditions as much as she need so for her own.
Christians are not allowed to 'show respect' to past ancestors. They believe that people die and turn to ashes, and go to either heaven or hell, and christians are not supposed to 'show respect' or worship dead people.. or idols. Ancestral worship, Confucian/Lao Zi worship and idol worship (figurines of religions) ALL fall under this category.
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old men these days are just not flexible.. what to do? they dun understand. thhey just want it their way. in my opinion, dont put ur wife in a difficult position. let ur father do whatever he wants =) wish you all the best.