Sign On RSN: Worth It? Wise?
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Originally posted by dkcx:
We don't talk about just experiencing BMT. Entering the SAF gives you a chance to see how they work and learn more about some of the regimental stuff etc which is still relatively common between all 3 service. If a person has experience it and decides that the regimental lifestyle is not to his liking, he does not have to sign on.
Don't tell me RSN or RSAF slacker etc. If you can't take the toughest and worse treatment, you should not bother considering signing on since there is no assurnace of things being easy in any of the services.
But navy IS very different from army and i think yup its slacker and easier, especially for the non fit people, pussies who can't chiong sua or people whose command and leadership isn't their forte.If seasickness is something you don't even feel, navy is really an extended vacation interjected with some routine work. You are sheltered, have nice food to eat,no physical exertion, and don't face the rough elements, the navy guys I know are fair like Fann Wong, you don't need to chiong sua in the rain, sleep in the jungle on a mat, eat combat rations and walk for 20km with a 20kg fieldpack and lugging a 3kg rifle to fight.
i know that cos there are some specialists who had really tough time in NS army but did well or were happy when they sign on to navy cos they can't take the toughest regime, army and have just enough toughness for navy or air force. if you dun have an issue with seasickness, its generally a walk in the park. The other thing is of course being away for up to 4 months, quite a downer, few jobs I know have this sian factor of being away for up to 4 months at a stretch frequently.
You can sign on after BMT, no hurry, but from what little i know of naval ops, there is nothing relevant in BMT army in terms of job scope.
For high fliers I know who aren't super fit for army or don't have exceptional leadership qualities that army requires but qualified for SAFOS, Navy is the place where they end up.
The largest ship command fewer than 100 person at CO level, fewer than the no. of people an army OC commands.
The more people in a unit at the same level of command in the service, the higher the emphasis on leadership and the bigger the draw for those who thrive on leadership.
As for air force, people gravitate there to be pilots, their first choice, and if they fail to be and want to be in SAF(combat), the rigors of WSO are still more demanding than most naval vocations save for diver. Pilots in RSAF operate very independently, like silos, with hardly any leadership requirements at the junior to middle command levels.
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Originally posted by insidestory:
But navy IS very different from army and i think yup its slacker and easier, especially for the non fit people, pussies who can't chiong sua or people whose command and leadership isn't their forte.If seasickness is something you don't even feel, navy is really an extended vacation interjected with some routine work. You are sheltered, have nice food to eat,no physical exertion, and don't face the rough elements, the navy guys I know are fair like Fann Wong, you don't need to chiong sua in the rain, sleep in the jungle on a mat, eat combat rations and walk for 20km with a 20kg fieldpack and lugging a 3kg rifle to fight.
i know that cos there are some specialists who had really tough time in NS army but did well or were happy when they sign on to navy cos they can't take the toughest regime, army and have just enough toughness for navy or air force. if you dun have an issue with seasickness, its generally a walk in the park. The other thing is of course being away for up to 4 months, quite a downer, few jobs I know have this sian factor of being away for up to 4 months at a stretch frequently.
You can sign on after BMT, no hurry, but from what little i know of naval ops, there is nothing relevant in BMT army in terms of job scope.
For high fliers I know who aren't super fit for army or don't have exceptional leadership qualities that army requires but qualified for SAFOS, Navy is the place where they end up.
The largest ship command fewer than 100 person at CO level, fewer than the no. of people an army OC commands.
The more people in a unit at the same level of command in the service, the higher the emphasis on leadership and the bigger the draw for those who thrive on leadership.
As for air force, people gravitate there to be pilots, their first choice, and if they fail to be and want to be in SAF(combat), the rigors of WSO are still more demanding than most naval vocations save for diver. Pilots in RSAF operate very independently, like silos, with hardly any leadership requirements at the junior to middle command levels.
Sheltered my foot. Extended vacation?? It depends on the vocation.
If you think sea-sickness is something one can easily adjust to if one has no prior problems beforehand, obviously you've never tried fighting fires in full gear and damage control in rough seas.
As a NSF who once served as part of the damage control team, what I can tell you the fatigue one experiences is not something comparable to "chiong sua", because one has to think quickly to save the ship, in narrow passages, hot compartments, and in full gear which is not light and restricted by the face-mask. You must be able to know the ship inside-out, since power will be cut-off and smoke will obscure your view! You must know where EVERY important equipments are kept, how to rig them up etc etc. You are shagged, your breathing and vision restricted, people shouting at you, the urgency. What do people outside of this team know? How many of us have injured ourselves doing this kind of things? How was Courageous saved?
You won't understand unless you've tried it yourself. Picture yourself woken up in the dead of the night by alarms and then going through drills after drills. The mental fatigue and physical exhaustion is there. Damage-control was but one job of mine. I also have my own systems to man, to repair, to maintain. I was also a seaman....and I belonged to a dept that takes the lead in the dirtiest and toughest jobs. (Fellow RSN folks will know which vocation I belonged to!
)I won't compare both lives in army and in navy, even though I've experienced both. To compare would be unfair to both services that serve the country.
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Originally posted by SBS2601D:
Sheltered my foot. Extended vacation?? It depends on the vocation.
If you think sea-sickness is something one can easily adjust to if one has no prior problems beforehand, obviously you've never tried fighting fires in full gear and damage control in rough seas.
As a NSF who once served as part of the damage control team, what I can tell you the fatigue one experiences is not something comparable to "chiong sua", because one has to think quickly to save the ship, in narrow passages, hot compartments, and in full gear which is not light and restricted by the face-mask. You must be able to know the ship inside-out, since power will be cut-off and smoke will obscure your view! You must know where EVERY important equipments are kept, how to rig them up etc etc. You are shagged, your breathing and vision restricted, people shouting at you, the urgency. What do people outside of this team know? How many of us have injured ourselves doing this kind of things? How was Courageous saved?
You won't understand unless you've tried it yourself. Picture yourself woken up in the dead of the night by alarms and then going through drills after drills. The mental fatigue and physical exhaustion is there. Damage-control was but one job of mine. I also have my own systems to man, to repair, to maintain. I was also a seaman....and I belonged to a dept that takes the lead in the dirtiest and toughest jobs. (Fellow RSN folks will know which vocation I belonged to!
)I won't compare both lives in army and in navy, even though I've experienced both. To compare would be unfair to both services that serve the country.
I see your point.
I do not know much about Naval ops, whatever little i know is heard from very few acquaintances who signed on to navy after their BMT stint.
From the way you describe, I concede that navy is not altogether devoid of rigors and toughness, but you do concede it's easier than certain arms in the army. At the very least, you're spared from sleep deprivation on an extended basis, sometimes beyond 24 hours compared to just having fitful interrupted sleep, you don't walk like 30km while carrying a load of 20kg and your rifle and later still summon enough strength because you're expected to fight.
Not all army arms are similar in ops and level of hardship. From the way you describe your NS life and you mentioned that you were doing the shittiest naval vocation there is, I'd say that its equivalent to combat support arms like signals, combat engineers and arty, but I really don't think it's tougher than what is physically and mentally required of the three inf arms, commando, guards and infantry but the seasickness sure stinks,..but try not showering for 9 days in taiwan and drinking from the jerrycan, sleep deprived for 48 hours during missions, walking for 30km carrying loads of shit under the hot sun and in the cold of the night while fending off mosquitoes so hungry they can suck past your thick eeky camo paint and then after that, have to fight. Note that the officers in these arms go through all this as a matter of course, not just the specs and men. And hey at least you have a navy chef on board that I heard cooks everyone warm nice gourmet meals.
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Originally posted by SBS2601D:
Sheltered my foot. Extended vacation?? It depends on the vocation.
If you think sea-sickness is something one can easily adjust to if one has no prior problems beforehand, obviously you've never tried fighting fires in full gear and damage control in rough seas.
As a NSF who once served as part of the damage control team, what I can tell you the fatigue one experiences is not something comparable to "chiong sua", because one has to think quickly to save the ship, in narrow passages, hot compartments, and in full gear which is not light and restricted by the face-mask. You must be able to know the ship inside-out, since power will be cut-off and smoke will obscure your view! You must know where EVERY important equipments are kept, how to rig them up etc etc. You are shagged, your breathing and vision restricted, people shouting at you, the urgency. What do people outside of this team know? How many of us have injured ourselves doing this kind of things? How was Courageous saved?
You won't understand unless you've tried it yourself. Picture yourself woken up in the dead of the night by alarms and then going through drills after drills. The mental fatigue and physical exhaustion is there. Damage-control was but one job of mine. I also have my own systems to man, to repair, to maintain. I was also a seaman....and I belonged to a dept that takes the lead in the dirtiest and toughest jobs. (Fellow RSN folks will know which vocation I belonged to!
)I won't compare both lives in army and in navy, even though I've experienced both. To compare would be unfair to both services that serve the country.
I somehow think that the naval divers are the toughest vocation in whole three services, there is a saying a naval diver can be red beret but a red beret cannot be a diver. Anyway if u look at the cabinet, the MICA minister n DPM aka Defence minister are from the navy.
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Originally posted by will4:
I somehow think that the naval divers are the toughest vocation in whole three services, there is a saying a naval diver can be red beret but a red beret cannot be a diver. Anyway if u look at the cabinet, the MICA minister n DPM aka Defence minister are from the navy.
The two ministers from navy were not ministers because they were from the Navy. It won't have made a difference whether they were from air force or army or navy or whichever vocation within to be minister.
Command choices and commnd abilities affect command ascenscion.
SAFOS ascend the ladder in SAF, and at the same time in Admin Service, and their ascension in the civil service and ensuing possibility and interest in politics are completely separate from their choice of arms and service in the SAF. Their ascension in the civil service is completely separate from their progress in the command track in the SAF. In fact many of the SAFOS in the ministerial cabinet and civil service had left the SAF entirely early in their 30s eg Lim Swee Say, Peter Ho (head of civil service) , Lee Seow Hiang (CEO of CAAS and principal private secretary of MM/PM) . Lim Hng Kiang is also from army but he left as a BG. All these people are from army when they were regulars.
Their report card outside of the military (civil service and if interest permits, politics), is predicated on only their performance in the civil service (and a smaller extent, their staff performance in Mindef), to the point that even if they were only a downgraded officer pursuing the staff track in Mindef, it wouldn't matter, let alone what arms and what diver shit.
There are a high number of them in Mindef now who's left the command route entirely, including one who's the DS (deputy sec) of Mindef but still technically in uniform and attaches a rank (BG) before his name, but he goes to Gombak now everyday in CVs.
Not only is the command career totally irrelevant to the career in the Admin Service, if one is smart enough he can even become CDF (a command appointment) despite being medically downgraded and fat relying only on pure wits as a military strategist and political savvy to destroy his rivals gunning for the same command spot. Although there's only been one example so far, Ng Yat Chung, never to be repeated again thus far.
Did you know that the PM and his brother are from army? Oh I remember distinctly that you are the one who started the thread on how you don't befriend regulars LOL.
People like Chan Chung Sing and Tan Chuan Jin are those who are set and focused on the command track in the SAF, and have to snag the plum command appointments up to Div Com and do well in their Mindef staff tours and get plum staff jobs like chief of staff, such officers will go over to civil service only after they finish the full term and are gunning for COA and CDF, which are command appointments.
Others, along the way, abandon the command track and focus on the other track.
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Originally posted by SBS2601D:
Sheltered my foot. Extended vacation?? It depends on the vocation.
If you think sea-sickness is something one can easily adjust to if one has no prior problems beforehand, obviously you've never tried fighting fires in full gear and damage control in rough seas.
As a NSF who once served as part of the damage control team, what I can tell you the fatigue one experiences is not something comparable to "chiong sua", because one has to think quickly to save the ship, in narrow passages, hot compartments, and in full gear which is not light and restricted by the face-mask. You must be able to know the ship inside-out, since power will be cut-off and smoke will obscure your view! You must know where EVERY important equipments are kept, how to rig them up etc etc. You are shagged, your breathing and vision restricted, people shouting at you, the urgency. What do people outside of this team know? How many of us have injured ourselves doing this kind of things? How was Courageous saved?
You won't understand unless you've tried it yourself. Picture yourself woken up in the dead of the night by alarms and then going through drills after drills. The mental fatigue and physical exhaustion is there. Damage-control was but one job of mine. I also have my own systems to man, to repair, to maintain. I was also a seaman....and I belonged to a dept that takes the lead in the dirtiest and toughest jobs. (Fellow RSN folks will know which vocation I belonged to!
)I won't compare both lives in army and in navy, even though I've experienced both. To compare would be unfair to both services that serve the country.
I thought the Minister of Trade n Industry, Mr Lim Hng Kiang is a former Air Force Officer? Peter Ho, the PS is from the Navy n BG (NS) Geroge Yeo is from the air force. I read that in times of conflict, the air force will be the first to be mobilized if I have not remeber wrongly. I have left the service a long time n I have not been called back for any duty. I read that army n navy food have become nicer. No idea regarding training, last time in tekong, there is fogging to kill the mosquitoes n recuruits kena forced to take malaria pills. Speaking about the food in the army, they said can also bring cooked food to field camp which I also experienced during my service. Even during a mission, there is also the cooked food brought to the field. I forgot that Mr Lim Hng Kiang is an LTC when he went to join the ministry. -
Originally posted by insidestory:
I see your point.
I do not know much about Naval ops, whatever little i know is heard from very few acquaintances who signed on to navy after their BMT stint.
From the way you describe, I concede that navy is not altogether devoid of rigors and toughness, but you do concede it's easier than certain arms in the army. At the very least, you're spared from sleep deprivation on an extended basis, sometimes beyond 24 hours compared to just having fitful interrupted sleep, you don't walk like 30km while carrying a load of 20kg and your rifle and later still summon enough strength because you're expected to fight.
Not all army arms are similar in ops and level of hardship. From the way you describe your NS life and you mentioned that you were doing the shittiest naval vocation there is, I'd say that its equivalent to combat support arms like signals, combat engineers and arty, but I really don't think it's tougher than what is physically and mentally required of the three inf arms, commando, guards and infantry but the seasickness sure stinks,..but try not showering for 9 days in taiwan and drinking from the jerrycan, sleep deprived for 48 hours during missions, walking for 30km carrying loads of shit under the hot sun and in the cold of the night while fending off mosquitoes so hungry they can suck past your thick eeky camo paint and then after that, have to fight. Note that the officers in these arms go through all this as a matter of course, not just the specs and men. And hey at least you have a navy chef on board that I heard cooks everyone warm nice gourmet meals.
I've been in both the army and the navy, and I don't like to make comparisons about how macho each might be, but I'd agree that (divers excluded) at worst the navy experience is comparable to an army combat support arm in terms of physical toughness/physical hardship. And the food IS good, and you do get to shower and clean up at the end of the day and not worry about mosquitoes. And seasickness was never a problem for me.
The thing I have to correct, though, is
"At the very least, you're spared from sleep deprivation on an extended basis"
That is absolutely wrong. Ask anyone who's been through naval officer training. Many times during our 6 week training deployment we didn't sleep at all for days, and I was generally happy to have the rare opportunity to reach 3 hours of sleep in a single night.
That misconception apart, life in the navy is seriously not too bad, though the avoidance of denigratory and inflammatory remarks such as "non fit people, pussies who can't chiong sua or people whose command and leadership isn't their forte" would generally be appreciated.
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x2
I find it quite unfair to simply say that what RSN specs go through is for pussies etc etc
One fine day, after one super tough drill after drill and some super-duper eff-ing, I had to talk to my fellow NSF mate who ended up hiding in one corner crying. The mental torture is no joke. Another NSF mate nearly jumped off into the sea after a botched fire drill in which he had a major role to play. Consequently, he manged to get "excuse ship-board" much to our chagrin. As for whether he did a calculated keng....I don't want to know, but our lives were quite miserable because of manpower shortage.
What people dont seem to realise is that we can stand on watch for hours upon hours on end. I myself have stared through the binoculars standing for 18 hrs non-stop on many sailings.
Before you say: Oh! 18 hrs only!
The fatigue laid upon us meant that we failed to see hazards we normally would have spotted had we been alert. Our eyes nearly popped out and the headache was terrific. Thats especially so at night where we strain to capture as much light on our retinae. Won't go into details of some scary near-misses we had.
Neither do people realise that for big ships, coming alongside and slipping-off from harbour is tough work. Espcecially when the thick nylon ropes touch water and absorb them. And worse would be cases where the rope threatens to snap. I daresay any "tough" guys' balls would shrink when they hear the "TWACK TWACK TWACK" as the rope starts to unravel a little and threatens to snap. Should the rope snap and you're in the way, you'll simply be sliced into 2. Some equipments, especially those involving towing of ships can weigh more than 100kg! Yes! You can say can split the weight for 4 people....but remember! The narrow passageway makes it impossible for all 4 to hold it at the same time. So what happens? 2 people = 50kg each.
And what do we get? RSN = Relax!
Again...I would put my point across that it would be unfair to compare both services. I didn't enjoy sleeping with centipedes and having frogs leap onto my groin. But neither did I enjoy the shorter but much more intense physical/mental exertions we go through. At the very least one should not be so quick to judge by the "aircon", the "bed".
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But then there are plus-points...
Sometimes I feel like the luckiest dude when I'm sitting outside and the ship bashes at high speed. The wind, the sun and the sea-spray is unforgettable.
I got to see dolphins bow-riding as well. Totally magical experience. Sea-gulls that follow the ship for a couple of days.
Of course it sucks when it rains. But then the rainbow after that was like...whoa! The sunrise and sunset....you can never get it as well on land. When I'm outside in the middle of the pitch black night, I could see shooting stars upon shooting stars...and I fancied I could see a little of the Milky Way. The stars can be bright enough to illuminate the water a little...along with the moon.
On some days when there's absolutely no wind, the sea is like a mirror...even more calm than the swimming pool. You can see through the blue blue sea and stare at the flying fishes shooting out and skimming across the water.
Honestly, I felt quite previleged that I was given a chance to experience all these...that's when I got to enjoy of course.
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if you are not in need of money, don't...
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Im a student and I just came back from a ten day stint from RSS persistence, the Navy life is pretty much a love and hate situation, you really have to be able to take the sea-sickness although you'll probably get used to it after awhile. also the lack of sleep is one concern especially if you are thinking about being a navy officer, the midshipmen have the lights on pretty much 24/7 studying. Most of them I met are those that have signed on and are actually fine with the 'suffering'. the good stuff comes after you become a officer.
Also, the people on the ship are quite friendly although they do take their work very seriously, on board, the sailors know not to step over the line during work, this gives them a sense of professionalism on the jobs they are doing.
PS: the bridge watches are actually only 4hrs long not 8hrs, although i agree that it is easy to lose track of time if you spend too much time inside the ship. and sailing has nvr been more than 3-4 months till date i have not heard of year long deployments.
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Originally posted by Randall crow:
Im a student and I just came back from a ten day stint from RSS persistence, the Navy life is pretty much a love and hate situation, you really have to be able to take the sea-sickness although you'll probably get used to it after awhile. also the lack of sleep is one concern especially if you are thinking about being a navy officer, the midshipmen have the lights on pretty much 24/7 studying. Most of them I met are those that have signed on and are actually fine with the 'suffering'. the good stuff comes after you become a officer.
Also, the people on the ship are quite friendly although they do take their work very seriously, on board, the sailors know not to step over the line during work, this gives them a sense of professionalism on the jobs they are doing.
PS: the bridge watches are actually only 4hrs long not 8hrs, although i agree that it is easy to lose track of time if you spend too much time inside the ship. and sailing has nvr been more than 3-4 months till date i have not heard of year long deployments.
RSS persistence is my favorite ship to sail with. LST.
Stable ship does not rock much, therefore seasick is not a prob, but some smaller rock like crazy in open sea,.
Sailing depending on mission can be up to 8-9 months. confirm. The submarine can go for 1 year++? (not sure; not suppose to know). depending on mission.
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Originally posted by Lokey:
RSS persistence is my favorite ship to sail with. LST.
Stable ship does not rock much, therefore seasick is not a prob, but some smaller rock like crazy in open sea,.
Sailing depending on mission can be up to 8-9 months. confirm. The submarine can go for 1 year++? (not sure; not suppose to know). depending on mission.
You PES C can sail meh?
Submarine where got 1 yr ++......you think ours is a Ohio class sub, sitting at S China Sea bottom waiting to strike si boh?
And training overseas =/= mission.
And where's the confirmation that mission can be up to 8 to 9 months??
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generally rsaf should be the least xiong in terms of physical stress, except if you're from ADA of course..
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Originally posted by SBS2601D:
You PES C can sail meh?Submarine where got 1 yr ++......you think ours is a Ohio class sub, sitting at S China Sea bottom waiting to strike si boh?
And training overseas =/= mission.
And where's the confirmation that mission can be up to 8 to 9 months??
You sounds like you dont know anything at all. nvm.
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Originally posted by Lokey:
You sounds like you dont know anything at all. nvm.
o rly?
ah....but of course.
You see, if I don't know, I would not act like I do.
Even if I do, I don't see why I should tell in a public forum.
as to whether you PES C or not, I admit, I don't know. Maybe you knocked your head against a DCBA set and down-pesed to 8-5.
http://sgforums.com/forums/1390/topics/390359
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Originally posted by Lokey:
Different Navy BMT dont have field camp, road march, SOC and so many stuff. And Navy BMT is completely different from Army. LOL. So different.
I was from the NAVY and who say we dun have SOC and road march during BMT? We just dun have field camp.
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Look who doesn't know anything.
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Originally posted by goofyzell:
I was from the NAVY and who say we dun have SOC and road march during BMT? We just dun have field camp.
Maybe there is really an SOC ground hiding in CNB or Sembawang, which I dont know of. Anyway I was from Tekong, so I was just relating messages on what I was being told by others. Times changes, course content also changes. But I was never assigned to do medical cover for SOC and road march before. Anyway who cares, only $$$ matters to me now?
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Don't think "anyway who cares" is good enough to shake those lies off...
So in the end, you really know nuts, and that's the whole point here.
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Originally posted by SBS2601D:
Don't think "anyway who cares" is good enough to shake those lies off...
So in the end, you really know nuts, and that's the whole point here.
You dont even know what I am talking about. Why r u commenting? Sailing in the sea, is dammed "long" it is like months and years. When I look at the Changi Shore Lines, I am wondering why we are so close and why we are not going back? The time on the ship is long (not physically but mentally). Perhaps I am an NSF, not regular.
In sub is even worse. It just take forever to return to shore.
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So is it months and years or is it "like months and years"?
wtf are u talking??
And are you sure about the "not physically but mentally long" part or not?
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Originally posted by SBS2601D:
So is it months and years or is it "like months and years"?
wtf are u talking??
And are you sure about the "not physically but mentally long" part or not?
not sure also. Do you expect me to remember the detail of each fleet ops now? At my times, the sea animals are still around, sub is just returning to sg. OCS cadets go to Europe for their grads trip. "Courageous" is still sailing, the girls are still alive, and I flirt with them. Dont talk anymore. If you can provide the rest with details of the mission, ops duration, just correct me and say lah. Dont talk anything when you dont know anything at all.
The sailing trip can longer than it is that is all I can say.
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Originally posted by stellazio:
generally rsaf should be the least xiong in terms of physical stress, except if you're from ADA of course..
man packable stuff
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Originally posted by Lokey:
not sure also. Do you expect me to remember the detail of each fleet ops now? At my times, the sea animals are still around, sub is just returning to sg. OCS cadets go to Europe for their grads trip. "Courageous" is still sailing, the girls are still alive, and I flirt with them. Dont talk anymore. If you can provide the rest with details of the mission, ops duration, just correct me and say lah. Dont talk anything when you dont know anything at all.
The sailing trip can longer than it is that is all I can say.
You havent answered me....you're PES C. You're a NSF (Non-Sailing Force).How could you have sailed?
Unless of course your down-PES was because you got concussed by someone's DCBA etc, which actually happened to someone I knew.